Okay so I'm a big fan of MMOs. I've played a lot of them and I will continue to play them. And although I'm posting this here in the L2 forums, I feel this goes beyond just L2. With the testing of Hellbound, I've been thinking of the way content is developed and I really want to try to understand why game developers do what they do.
The content is almost always end game. Oh, there are scattered changes for lower levels here and there, but the new areas and such are what I'm talking about. Real, solid, new stuff to do on a day to day basis. That's usually for a very specific set of players who have reached the highest level.
Just looking at some of this I can see how much effort is put into creating it. Hellbound is really a neat place. The place changes, both temporarily and permanently. It's obvious that a lot of programing and thought went into this place. But how many players will ever see it?
It's not just here in Lineage II, in most other games I've played it's the same kind of thing, a small percentage of the player population is all that will ever get to experience the content that it took so much of the company's resources to develop.
I don't understand why development is done that way and I'd like to.
It would seem logical to me that you take a look at your player demographics. What level are the majority of your players? Then you develop content for either that level or just past that level area.
End gamers are generally pretty hard core, but they are also generally a small number. I just don't understand why that is the populace that the game companies choose to develop for.
Maybe I'm looking at this wrong.
I believe the intent is to keep people in the game. Maybe they feel that giving people something to strive for will keep them playing. However most of the stuff that's developed seems to be so far out of reach that there is a tipping point where people get discouraged rather than encouraged.
I don't think they are choosing to develope for them.
However, you need a game that doesn't end. If all players knew that once they reached high lvl that was it, they might not play.
You need somethign for players to shoot for and you need something to keep the players interested once they reach top lvl.
There is one issue, that players assume that the best content is at highest lvls and they just zip through. However, with a game like L2, the game is focused on a pvp purpose (yes, with obviously a huge pve grind mechanic) so there is no reason not to zip, as quickly as possible to a lvl that will afford you an easier victory.
This game is over 4 Years old and the lower lvls have a lot added compared to when I was low lvl way back in the day. So after 4 years mostly everyone is end game or close to it and have subs on top subs. We don't need anymore low lvl content. most of us fly throu the low lvls anyway. Hell kamael Village was a whole new place for low lvls that's enough time invested in low lvl stuff. they focus should be end game from here on out. With the Level cap being 85 now we need more High lvl areas to hunt. if you want take a brake from the hunt go to fanasty island :)
You're missing the huge amount of high lvl people.
I know there are a lot of high level people. I'm not assuming that everyone is level 10 or even 60. What I've said is take a look at where the majority of your players are and develop content for those.
Do you honestly believe the majority of players are level 80?
Again, I'm not talking about developing for the very lowest levels, which is what Kamael Island was for. I'm talking about the folks that are in their 70s.
AshleyHunter Quote: We don't need anymore low lvl content. most of us fly throu the low lvls anyway. Hell kamael Village was a whole new place for low lvls that's enough time invested in low lvl stuff.
Speak for yourself :p
Jute Quote:Again, I'm not talking about developing for the very lowest levels, which is what Kamael Island was for.
Why I as an Orc should have to go to another races lands is beyond me. We lack low/mid range content.
Why I as an Orc should have to go to another races lands is beyond me. We lack low/mid range content.
How much more low/mid range content you need?
EG
Curma Swamp
Curma Tower
IT
Sea of Spores
Catts & Nercos
Cemetery
That's just a small fraction of the areas
over 1/2 the Low Mid Range Content no one even hunts at anymore. give me a break. so you asking them to make more zones for low to mid range that will just be empty or full automated players.
Why I as an Orc should have to go to another races lands is beyond me. We lack low/mid range content.
I am hoping not to side track this into too much about lower level content, but Splatter, you don't have to leave to level. I'd be happy to show you where you can level up. :)
NC is a company. Company's target is to make profit. How you do that? Make people keep on playing your game.
Reaching lvl 70 is like 6months? For an average player. If most content was at that level people would pay for 7-8 months then stop playing.
Adding stuff at high levels , means people need to play lets say 12 months to reach lvl 80 then play another 2-3 months to explore the stuff at those levels. Then you pay for another 6 months to make yourself noble. Then you pay for another 2-3 months until you become a hero. Then you pay for another 12 months to become 85 level. Then a new patch comes :)
Thats the way I see it at least.Do they care if 10 people stop the game at their 70's ? Not really cause 2 hardcore players will pay more than those 10 eventually.
And there are over 12 areas you can level in your 40's. How many places are there for 78+? Hell you can;t even really lvl in the catts after you hit 80.
Not really cause 2 hardcore players will pay more than those 10 eventually.
And it's a Good bet that the 2 Hardcore players have 2 or more accounts also which is more money.
NC is a company. Company's target is to make profit. How you do that? Make people keep on playing your game.
Reaching lvl 70 is like 6months? For an average player. If most content was at that level people would pay for 7-8 months then stop playing.
Adding stuff at high levels , means people need to play lets say 12 months to reach lvl 80 then play another 2-3 months to explore the stuff at those levels. Then you pay for another 6 months to make yourself noble. Then you pay for another 2-3 months until you become a hero. Then you pay for another 12 months to become 85 level. Then a new patch comes :)
Thats the way I see it at least.Do they care if 10 people stop the game at their 70's ? Not really cause 2 hardcore players will pay more than those 10 eventually.
I honestly don't know if the largest population is in this market, but I would bet money that it is not.
The only people who can do this are those who have no outside responsibilities.
Part of the problem is that some of the new content is basically useless. Take Primevil island, and much of FoG. Then add that IT has only 1 solo room of use, that you can only do the Ketras or the Silenos, and that the Swamp of screams is hopeless and you can see why there's not enough at the upper levels. Too much of it is crap or unavailable. Compare this with the content added in the 20s through 50s around Schuttgart, which was all pretty useful and had some nice quests.
Actually with the changes implemented over the course of l2..... alot of major changes are needed in the low lvl areas..
there are HUGE portions of the landscapes void of anything, just waisted space.
Instead of building more and more larger areas, they really need to backtrack and make changes to the zones already present.
They could easily start putting very high lvl content and changes in those areas, such as around the gludin area. Go north east of gludin for some lvl 90 stuff lol.
Still think the distruction of Giran would be a very very nice stir. Turn it into a kinda devestated castle town.
I mean [censored], they have to rework all the quest below lvl 76 anyways cause they are so messed up.
They could take Mithril Mines, which are so huge it literally takes 30 minutes to get to the bottom if you have to kill a few mobs on the way and make it a high level area. Elven Ruins is quite large as well.
Part of the problem is that some of the new content is basically useless. Take Primevil island, and much of FoG. Then add that IT has only 1 solo room of use, that you can only do the Ketras or the Silenos, and that the Swamp of screams is hopeless and you can see why there's not enough at the upper levels. Too much of it is crap or unavailable. Compare this with the content added in the 20s through 50s around Schuttgart, which was all pretty useful and had some nice quests.
So this is a good point. What exactly is it that makes content like Forge of the Gods and Primeval Isle not usable? Why is it that no one hunts at Stakato's Nest or Devil's Isle?
People asked for more interesting mobs and more intelligent creatures. Is this just an example of how people don't always want what they ask for?
I agree I use 2 love to hunt in Elven Ruins back in beta they could easy make the back rooms lvl 30 to 35 mobs and the very back of the Library the room past Narkus lvl 40 mobs
What exactly is it that makes content like Forge of the Gods and Primeval Isle not usable? Why is it that no one hunts at Stakato's Nest or Devil's Isle?
People asked for more interesting mobs and more intelligent creatures. Is this just an example of how people don't always want what they ask for?
I would hunt at Stakato's Nest if it had a worth wild Quest. other then that unless your a Dagger class/ warlord or with a Good party Stakato's nest is a death trap.
Okay so I'm a big fan of MMOs. I've played a lot of them and I will continue to play them. And although I'm posting this here in the L2 forums, I feel this goes beyond just L2. With the testing of Hellbound, I've been thinking of the way content is developed and I really want to try to understand why game developers do what they do.
I'm amazed that you haven't already figured this out Jute....
It's simple really. It's part systemic and part environmental.
As far as environmental goes, without actually playing like the Koreans do, not just on their servers, you will have difficulty understanding it all. There is only so much you can learn or understand just by listening to those who do play there. We do know however, that for a majority, Koreans ARE that highly leveled. And those that are not most likely play on their 'relaxed' servers and are probably higher level than our 'relaxed' players here on the NA servers anyway. And this is ignoring a big portion of societal expectations on why this type of game system is popular.
For the other half of the equation, the system...it's bloody obvious if you just think things through. L2 is a 'level' based game. And as such it suffers from the various conceptions and precepts of the genre. You can blame D&D and the myriad early PC games for making this type of system the default, by being 'easy' to create and influencing pretty much the entire perception of game RPG's throughout the industry...asia in particular as RPG games have more general acceptance there than in the US.
For the most part, the problem with level based systems, is that the 'level curve' for lack of a better word, is horribly steep. In short, there is usually a huge difference between a small subset of levels out of the total. Which is only compounded by the fact that MMO's usually don't have a fixed number of levels...the dev's usually just keep extending the level max to infinity.
And because you have to level, which improves your character, you get stuck in a infinite loop of having to level, and expecting to level to improve...at which point, the whole of the game simply devolves into a infinite level treadmill.
Until game developers break the 'level habit', we are going to be stuck with the 'DBZ' problem. (Dragon Ball Z....grind! grind! POWER UP MORE!)
This system then fosters a complete lack of 'limitations', when it comes to how 'strong' characters become combined with a lack of 'humility' that comes from dying in a game where you don't stay dead.
To illustrate it a bit better, think of how ludicrous it would be for one person to defend an entire castle in 'real life'. Yet in a game, with enough levels that is all it would take. (One S grade char versus 1,000 NG chars for example...)
This is the main fault with level based systems...the ability and excuse that ignores limits. Everything simply keeps getting 'stronger' without ever reaching a point where it is 'maxed'. At some point without fail, that L1 'candle lighting' spell goes from simply warming the toes of a goblin, to being able to melt entire mountains in apocalyptic burst of sun fueled power...without the caster having to worry about side effects or things like blast radius.
Until we get a game designed from max level down, we are going to always end up with the same problems as other games that are designed from the 'bottom up'. (Without a top!)
So this is a good point. What exactly is it that makes content like Forge of the Gods and Primeval Isle not usable? Why is it that no one hunts at Stakato's Nest or Devil's Isle?
People asked for more interesting mobs and more intelligent creatures. Is this just an example of how people don't always want what they ask for?
Why do you even need to ask? It's obvious from the get go, why people don't bother with those areas....
EFFORT >>>> REWARD
Take for example, the Den of Evil. 1/2 HP mobs that use SS and summon reinforcements or have strong skills....but their rewards are on the same reward scale as every other mob for their level...complete crap.
When it's easier, safer and just as rewarding to hunt 1x or even 4x mobs elsewhere SOLO, it's a bigger question why the developers even put areas like that in the game.
And in for places like the Den, which you might think would be AOE or solo places since the mobs are 1/2 hp, you'd be dead wrong...you pretty much need a entire party w/healer&tank just to get anything done there. (And I have tried otherwise.) But the rewards for time spent are far less than what you'd get in a catacomb, much less all the hassle.
This also applies to how mob drops scale. Sure we get all sorts of bonuses to XP for parties or various mob location/skill combinations...but where are the improvements to drops and loot?
Why make a 9 man party and get 1/9 the loot, and incidentally getting less adena/drop per point of XP earned, when you can fight 1x mobs and get 100% XP and 100% loot on the same scale?
And not incidentally, 'difficult' is a bad thing to over generalize in a level based 'grind' game...in most cases the players *don't* want mobs that can 1-shot kill them, or ones that require an entire fleet of potions and/or support behind them. And yet, given how grindy 'sit in one spot and mobs respawn around you' games are setup, that's about the usual thing your going to end up with to make things 'difficult'.
actually i see 2 points, both rooted inside the game philosophy itselve:
1. xp requirement to reach the next level
since a lv 80 player will need a few month to reach 81 (unless he cheats) and a lvl 70 player will only need a few weeks to reach 71 the task for the developer to keep a lvl 80 player happy with content is harder then to keep a lvl 70 player happy. if both play the same ammount of hours there must be more content for the lvl 80 then for the lvl 70 to keep im from leaving the game beeing bored.
2. open, unlimited pvp
the goal (for most) in an open pvp game is to reach highest level and get best gear to get an advantage over those lower level. since the philosophy of l2 always was "u need to be on top to pwn" people are forced to lvl fast. the mayority wants a fast train to endgame and many instruments in the new patches (newbie buffs to lvl xxx, herbs, shadow weapons ...) are designed to rush the player to high lvl always faster then in the chronicle bevore.
so why waste developing time on creating content the player would want to rush through in a few days anyway.
especially point 2 might be my main criticism of the game at this time.
if you look at some emerging games like "warhammer online" it seems they understood this situation and split their game into tiers/leagues where similar leveled players compete against each other (in contrast to getting ganked by ppl 20 lvl higher then themselves)
for linage2 picture this scenario:
Schuttgart now:
schuttgart castle is sieged by the leading ally consisting of s grade players to have it in their "collection of castles"
schuttgart hunting grounds is deserted cause ppl find better xp elsewhere/ rush thrue these levels in a few weeks
people that hunt there can be ganked any time (by war) by any enemy level
Schuttgart improved:
each castle has a grade to it, schuttgart would be a b grade castle. only people 40-60 would be allowed on the battlefield, rest get raidcurse/para.
schuttgart hunting grounds gets more content, i.e. a dungeon, if a player 61+ kills a b grader in these hunting grounds he gets severe karma regardless of war status (like when a war kills an academy member)
imho this would bring in new player more easy because they dont have to take a holliday of 2 month to rush their chars to 70+ to even have a chance to compete with the s grade elite.
it also would allow developers to bring in a brought variety of content for all levels because people (new and old on subs alike) would enjoy content rather then rushing thrue it optimizing their xp or cheating their way to the endgame.
the ppl that want pvp on equal level as a fair fight/ a good sport are hardly the ones carebearing. those are the guys the would nothing better then long pvp session x times a day spend in challenging fights.
the true carebears pick a fotm class, join the top ally, ebay their gear, bot their levels and then gank those who are x level below them just to get their kick
I agree with Craylon on a few of the things he says.
I'm not very "high" level, since i'm only 75 on main and 73 on my subclass. I have been ganked by higher level players and find it very boring because they have much better buffs, and better gear. I also heard from others that the ones ganking us are using illegal programs and buy stuff for real money.
I don't care if the fight is fair, but from what i think now, it's all up to who has the best gear/buffs and the most potions to drink so that they can win the fight.
Also the grind to get up in level is a little hard if you have a life outside the game. But i do my best to make my goals in the game, because i just love the consept of the game. Although i will never get boss jewels i think. That would be an almost impossible goal for me to set. :p
It has always been up to who has the most levels, gear and buffs. Thats how L2 was built.
i dont deny that it was the games initial design to work that way. im just saying that with a design like that you dont need low/mid level content cause people want endgame right out of the box or at least a fast lane thrue the low/mid levels.
And that same thing also creates friction since people want the best exp spots for their level. You can find pvp still in pretty much all level ranges. Without having wars. Wars just add to all that and they cover all levels.
.... L2 is a 'level' based game. And as such it suffers from the various conceptions and precepts of the genre. You can blame D&D and the myriad early PC games for making this type of system the default, by being 'easy' to create and influencing pretty much the entire perception of game RPG's throughout the industry...asia in particular as RPG games have more general acceptance there than in the US.
dont blame d&d :)
if you bought the red beginners box of pen and paper d&d even 10 years after its initial print youll have fun and cool adventures. theres tons of content in it and gms that bring endless stories to you.
theres actually no pressure to level if you sit around the table rolling ur d4 to d20 listening to adventure the gm lays bevore you.
what you have in l2 is constant pressure to be highest level of the to pvp class with best gear. the adventure to get to that goal is actually non existent. if you would make a room with a green box in it that the player needs to hit to get 1.5 times the xp he would get from a mob outside ud have 90% of the server population stand bevore that green box hitting it.
And that same thing also creates friction since people want the best exp spots for their level. You can find pvp still in pretty much all level ranges. Without having wars. Wars just add to all that and they cover all levels.
well one of the most prominent features of l2 are castle sieges and epic raids. while i agree that theres some pvp competition in the hunting grounds do you really think that b graders have fun in the sieges (even against low castles as gludio) or fighting bots/ farmers for bosses like zaken ?
Those low castles still produce millions and millions of Adena. And what makes them low? The area they're in? Might makes right in this game and I dont really see B-graders having that might. Be it castles or epic bosses. Unless they're subs/alts made specifically for farming said bosses in the first place.
I think the biggest content shift is in this:
when i started 3+yrs ago parties were the in thing. I used to solo to my hearts content and evry one(that knew my solo spots or knew me) thought i was crazy to solo when i could do better in a party. No one used soulshots in a party(remeber those days?:P). It was about using less resources to come out ahead. Then its shifted after the cruma days....(ahh reminicing about gk hanna..) In came haste 2 pots and the like. No one really needed parties ne more. Since then evry chron has built more for soloing /2 boxing. So the devs have to do more to keep up the demands of the ppl so that they still make their money. The way they did that is like u guys were saying make it more important to lvl for pvp.
im a semi carebear when it comes to pvp. But at the same time im colourblind, and a touch OCD. So for me ill keep whacking the same 4 mobs in a black or dark green coloured area(hence im a cata dweller:P) i live for the pve NOT the pvp. What keeps me here? the same reason as u guys. Theres no end to the grind.
When u put all things aside every part of this game starts and ends with the grind.... U want that skill? need 78..... u want to wear dynasty? need 80. so until the main goal is done through other means than gaining lvls ull find me in the same 4 way till they pry the keyboard from cold dead fingers.....
because its a grind game the content must reflect that. They must put in more content at higherlvls because they dont want to lose income. To lose income we would need to stop grinding. Therefore they offer us more grinding. They cant really do much for interest in newbies cuz the grind is way to easy for noobs. I mean whats the point of new content for 2 weeks? it doesnt make money sense. So they offer new content to make u salivate to get there. and to get there u have to grind.
So really i think what they need to do is make more areas grindable. Maybe make it instanced like rift, or pvp based. Yah u have to win the pvp battle to claim the spot. But until that happens ill be living and dying on the same 4 mobs:)
It has always been up to who has the most levels, gear and buffs. Thats how L2 was built.
Charm, with all respect, they are discussing whether or not there is a better way. The discussion is probably academic, as I doubt we'll ever see such sweeping changes made. Still, I enjoy reading these discussion. Also, for me personally, the day will come when I move on to another game - we all will, actually. So it's also useful to hear what others think about the fundamental game design, from the point of view of: when that day comes. And I don't think it's carebear to say the game design has some consequences on how the player population behaves in reaction to the game design, nor to discus if there are other ways that might be better, in light of the how the player population reacts.
the true carebears pick a fotm class, join the top ally, ebay their gear, automate play their levels and then gank those who are x level below them just to get their kick
dont blame d&d :)
if you bought the red beginners box of pen and paper d&d even 10 years after its initial print youll have fun and cool adventures. theres tons of content in it and gms that bring endless stories to you.
theres actually no pressure to level if you sit around the table rolling ur d4 to d20 listening to adventure the gm lays bevore you.
Not only do I (still!) have the Beginners (red) books, but I also have the 'Advanced' book (Blue box) as well. And it is because of this, that I can wholeheartedly say that the D&D game conventions are at the heart of the problem.
The difference between a L1 character and a L36 character were huge. Not just in stats, although being a L1 mage with 1hp was 'teh suck'. But also in gear. It may not have been intended that way by Gygax, but the way he set things up and presented them pretty much garaunteed the 'Monty haul' system of killing mobs = loot = uber character.
I've tried a bunch of other game systems, from ones like Chiller/Call of Cthulhu to more sci-fi ones Robotech, Torg, Rifts, Gurps, M****n, Bubblegum Crisis (yes! there was an RPG based on this.), as well as conventional ones like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. And to a 'T', the more 'level based' the game, the easier it is to 'Munchkinize' everything to the point of sillyness.
And yes, a 'good' DM can prevent the worst of this type of stat-mongering, but they shouldn't *have* to, if the game itself wasn't so abusable. And that is why D&D has gone through no less than 4 revisions while WFRP is still on version 1.
We need to realize that they are pandering s if the player base has been here since open beta. I played a little in open beta, and it was end game to be lvl 30. I remember being a 15 knight and wanting to check out ant's nest. It took people a month to get to lvl 20 and do the quest back in the day. Now a hardcore player can knock that in 3 days. I personally remember when having a sword of solidarity was bad-[censored] because the quest was hard to do.
Honestly, if you're a lvl 1 character starting from scratch.. you'll have a lot in your hands. Now if you're going to start out with top NG and SS spam until A-grade... then yes, it's going to be **** and slash for a couple of months for you. Does the quest system need tweaking? Yes. Is NCSoft working on it? Shadow Weapons, newbie buffs, tradable equip until C grade... I'd call that progress. Has it been much too slow? Absolutely.
What this game really needs is more interesting stuff.
Grinding over and over in the same place is just boring.
The higher lvl u get the longer u stay in the same place not much options to change because of the rewards.
The biggest problem L2 has is its so money dependent.
Means the one with the most money usually wins the PVP and lvl much faster. Faster lvling resulting in higher lvl faster to.
PVP events in this game are only high lvl. This is another big flaw.
You could make L2 much more interesting if u really add lvl based events. Fortresses where meant to be for lower lvls and small clans in real they are not.
You dont need to add big stuff just some little extra fun for low lvls on weekend too.
Like gater some ppl around 20 or more to meet up at a specific spot to trigger the event. I would take abandoned camp as a sample. When 20 ppl are gathered other mobs (2x or 3x hp ) wil spawn and defend the spot.
They would drop extra money and a little more usefull stuff.
The event will last a limited time like 30mins -1 hour and if u defeated enought mobs you will get some extra reward.
Other events could be defending a place like a town or some housings in the wild from mobs.
The mobs will not attack the players untill they are attacked because they want to destroy the town or the housings.
If they could defend the stuff for a set time some extra rewards will be receifed. That dont need to be always money or equip some not tradeable soulshots or potions would help too.
Also some events should require specific classes and tactics only for that events. IE you will need some tanks for defending from mobs building a wall so u can defend and trick some mobs to traps you set. While the tanks hold the lines archer and wizards will fire from middle or back while healers are busy heal the tanks. If to many mobs break throu and start hit archers/ wizards/ healers the event will be lost.
Another event could be a big town robbery where every dagger class could sneak in houses and rob places for loot while other players/classes try to prevent them. The dagger classes should be able to hide in shadows ( become invisible in shadow and not moving ) with the silent move skill and half visible while moving and have to use unlock to open doors and treasures without keys only using an event key.
the best thiefes get a reward but also on his head so if someone else catches him he gets the head reward.
For all that stuff u would need a specific amount of players and classes to make them happen.
All should be lvl based so u can have a lot more events in all lvl ranges.
Some group quests should require specific classes too.
So you can only sove some riddels or other stuff if u have that specific class in party. It should be stated at the beginning before u take the quest what clases u will need.
There are so many options you could make this game more interesting in all lvl ranges but till now its just kill the same mob over and over again for months in order to get a few %.
Adding more places with oher mobs is not the kind of contend that makes the game more fun. Only not as boring as before but not more fun.
The OP raises a question that I think points out one glaring omission in development attention.
Certainly it's understandable why content keeps getting developed at the high end. Makes sense.
And with the last couple of chronicle releases we've seen some low end adds--which were needed.
I think the mid-grades could use some attention now.
How about instanced dungeon settings for C-grade and B-grade (not just the Rift)? How about newbie buffs extended past 40?
How about some increase in current quest rewards for C, B, and low A-grade quests?
Why not make more changes in those idiotic lvl 40-58 raid bosses so the participants get some significant EXP? One of the last 60'ish raids I tanked I got 64k exp!!! Since I tend to solo and get 5-6k per mob--I didn't think that RB was such a great investment of my time exp-wise. I could have killed dozens and dozens of mobs in the time it took to coordinate that raid and probably had 4x that exp by not raiding.
They don't have to completely reorder all the content--just extend some of the Kamael/recent chronicle changes upward a bit more and consider some quest/RB adds.
My reasoning is that if it made sense to essentially speed up and ease the 1-40 levels with the prior adjustments, then as the "top" keeps going up, it would seem to make sense to continue extending content through the 40's and 50's in the same way.