I completely agree! This is also why I DO NOT BELIEVE IDAHO EXISTS! I have never met someone from Idaho, I have met people who CLAIM to have met someone from Idaho, but I think they are just making it up. No, it is a myth created by the cartographers! Colorado just extends! Idaho potatoes are really from Iowa! IDAHO DOES NOT EXIST I TELL YOU!
I completely agree! This is also why I DO NOT BELIEVE IDAHO EXISTS! I have never met someone from Idaho, I have met people who CLAIM to have met someone from Idaho, but I think they are just making it up. No, it is a myth created by the cartographers! Colorado just extends! Idaho potatoes are really from Iowa! IDAHO DOES NOT EXIST I TELL YOU!
I'm with you if you read IDAHO as one word. If you read it as three words, well then...I met many of those lol!
I know a few real players who got banned for breaking the EULA, TOS or w/e, and not counting the Unnamed who vanished without a word.
It confirms it's the policy to ban violators or do you want more proofs, Saint Thomas?
i also know people who got banned for doing nothing wrong
"mass petition someone" is the way on franz/teon atm, renevan for example got mass petitioned and banned for no reason, a shame really that they only act on that
"mass petition someone" is the way on franz/teon atm, renevan for example got mass petitioned and banned for no reason, a shame really that they only act on that
Fers, that's not entirely true. Now I'm not saying that mistakes never happen, but our GM team looks at chat logs and all manner of in-game action logs, and thoroughly investigate reports of botting. Only if we come up with hard proof can we really ban someone. It has to be this way in the event that we have to provide proof--legally, we cannot just ban someone on a hunch. Granted, a lot of times banned folks will swear up and down they did nothing wrong, and of course their friends will believe them, but we always have the logs that prove otherwise. :/
I just have a problem with people that get unbanned months or even a year or better afterwards like they have learnt something.... only to come back and wreck havoc again.
*sigh*
I've been waging a petition war on this group in this one catacomb that has gone from dieing to a train very easily only to come back shortly, to you can train the entire cata on them and they won't even seem to flinch...
100% afk [cencored]
I'm trying like hell to get removed. It's the obvious ones that kill me, it's the ones that are "semi there" that are the difficult ones to work with.... but cmon 100% AFK weeks on end is just screaming for being banned.
im talking about bots with political impact -
as the farmer bots are here and will ever be here no one cares.
its just that in the big allies "you have to start botting" to join them - you have to use illegal PvP tools to get along - so I'm asking again and again and again:
When will cheating be punished. I know that alot of 9ppl bot parties get banned. That dont help me in no way if ppl with lvl 80++ and 3 lvl 75 botted subs kill me in pvp, take my lvl spots or see me @ 3monitors range before i even know that they are there? Why do ppl we all know and saw them botting make fun of themselves and NCstaff on other forums - why do ppl openly talk about botting and cheating in HERO chat? Why is that possible ???
oh addition - a good start would be adding common bot / pvp software to GG blacklist AT LEAST. GG blocks GameCam (best game video monitor ever) but it cannot block programs that obviously interfere with l2 network code ?!?
I have flown to Idaho and talked to the indigenous people. I have tasted the potatoes from that area, it is a place.
Interesting enough, I passed through northern idaho (granted, there was a very thick otherworldly fog at the time) and it's actually very beautiful. I was shocked!
1. A lot of us know people that have been banned. But I'm willing to bet the majority of banned bots are farmers. Who are they going to tell? That's why you only hear about some.
2. Bots can be obvious or subtle. That's why some people don't get the axe. They either haven't been noticed or haven't been proven. If what was said above is true and a bot player can see someone long before they can be seen, it makes sense that they could always log or stop botting (?) before they are even noticed. (Sorry if I am wrong on that)
3. People mouth off in other forums because they are under the protection of anonymity. The screen name they use on those sites may not be the same they use elsewhere and even if it is, how could NC be sure that a person mouthing off on a 3rd party website really is who they claim to be? That is probably why the official forums are linked to our accounts. If someone here claims they break the EULA, it's easy for NC to link the account and ban.
4. It is not so simple as adding "bot programs" to a guard. A really well made program could literally look like someone is playing l2 (aka all the proper signals are coming from the computer/mouse) Hell back in the infancy of the internet there were bots for pay-per-click ads that even moved your mouse TO the ad and clicked it for you. yow. ;)
"mass petition someone" is the way on franz/teon atm, renevan for example got mass petitioned and banned for no reason, a shame really that they only act on that
Fers, that's not entirely true. Now I'm not saying that mistakes never happen, but our GM team looks at chat logs and all manner of in-game action logs, and thoroughly investigate reports of botting. Only if we come up with hard proof can we really ban someone. It has to be this way in the event that we have to provide proof--legally, we cannot just ban someone on a hunch. Granted, a lot of times banned folks will swear up and down they did nothing wrong, and of course their friends will believe them, but we always have the logs that prove otherwise. :/
I quoted Alyra, but I dont expect a response (shes busy, etc).. its just this point I wanted to quote on was all.
Specifically the line " Only if we come up with hard proof can we really ban someone."
I was told that in PM's by Alyra as well months ago, and its really always bothered me.
The EULA clearly states that they can ban your account at anytime they wish, with absolutely no warning to you. So why *cant* they ban people with no proof?
Obviously, we all know what a train looks like right? We all know how they act, etc... but is that "proof"? No, not really.
Why cant that be enough? Is it risk of lawsuits? I dont know, but I think that little line right there is the reason that bots will never be removed from this game.
Well that and other things. Like some bots are set to avoid targeting the same mob as another player, so you can run them in circles for a long time just by selecting the same mobs they are running at. :)
Also I have heard stories of people being asked secret questions by GMs that they could only answer if they were playing live and could access everything available to them while in game.
The ones that log out instantly if a player is near may be easy to spot if the GM is looking for that..?
Also if a person is being monitored, perhaps a GM can watch for things that a bot can do which a player couldn't.
And of course.. the good old fashioned chat-log check. Some people really are dumb enough to discuss it in game.
Buff skill that is better then the other buffs skill, the 3rd party program will exhibit something i'd like to call "loop buffing".... where they try and buff again and again and again because "thier" buff isn't on that person so they figure they gotta keep buffing it.
This is one sure fire way to find out if someone is cheating.
After i see something like that i gm it.... cause it's just obvious beyond reason.
Cmon, if the SE in the party has VR3 and someone outside buffs VR4 and then the in party se keeps trying to buff the same buff over and over and over again on the same toon unable to override vr4..... you caught someone.
Nothing would be more cool then a gm creating a character with a buffs that surpass that of any normal toon in the game, be it MIGHT 4 or SHILED 4 (that's all i could see ever being needed to catch someone initially)..... and walk around randomly buffing these people, it would be a bonus to someone legit, and a instant catch for someone that isn't.
The funny thing is, that the programs ARE not on the blacklist of GG , GG is a TOP lvl application its very hard to get around it (despite desabling it, what should be easy to detect)
As is very popular, I blame the current Administration for the Idaho hoax that has been perpetrated on America.
Similarly, I have not been to Oregon and am quite sure it's the same as Idaho.
It's the depth of this conspiracy that worries me....all the history books and teachers who use them, maps and atlas' published by major corporations, Howard Johnson pretending they have motels in those places......they have even involved the NCAA in pretending there are college teams from these places!
I just don't know who to trust anymore!
"mass petition someone" is the way on franz/teon atm, renevan for example got mass petitioned and banned for no reason, a shame really that they only act on that
Fers, that's not entirely true. Now I'm not saying that mistakes never happen, but our GM team looks at chat logs and all manner of in-game action logs, and thoroughly investigate reports of botting. Only if we come up with hard proof can we really ban someone. It has to be this way in the event that we have to provide proof--legally, we cannot just ban someone on a hunch. Granted, a lot of times banned folks will swear up and down they did nothing wrong, and of course their friends will believe them, but we always have the logs that prove otherwise. :/
I quoted Alyra, but I dont expect a response (shes busy, etc).. its just this point I wanted to quote on was all.
Specifically the line " Only if we come up with hard proof can we really ban someone."
I was told that in PM's by Alyra as well months ago, and its really always bothered me.
The EULA clearly states that they can ban your account at anytime they wish, with absolutely no warning to you. So why *cant* they ban people with no proof?
Obviously, we all know what a train looks like right? We all know how they act, etc... but is that "proof"? No, not really.
Why cant that be enough? Is it risk of lawsuits? I dont know, but I think that little line right there is the reason that bots will never be removed from this game.
i feel the need to redirect you to the argument we had a lot of fun with some time ago about how "IF GM's had the power to ban as they saw fit without consequence from the company itself, that these GM's would in turn become tyrants and ban willy-nilly. "i dont like your face - BAN!" type things would pop up everywhere all the while these people would be coming to some forum or other crying unfair/im legit/im a paying customer you cant do this/ etc etc. "
and anarchy would ensue.
the only argument that in any way showed promise but never actually laboured itself properly was the one provided by turalyongilnea; he argued how it would not be possible for the GM's to do this cause it simply would hurt the bottom line.
which is true, but completely false by the same token. the clause that GMs can ban at anytime without notice is proof of that. in a civil suit should one occur NC would not face paying out for a GM's mistake simply because in this case the GM's can make no mistake. the GM's were given absolute power and it corrupted, to the detriment of only the playerbase.
Hardly a good business practise to just ban people with no proof, that would just be a mass petition war on who can petition the most to get the most people banned.
And heck, most people would simply leave the game. Heck going your approach it would actually be a better idea to ban those who complain about it, than it is to ban anyone else.
The funny thing is, that the programs ARE not on the blacklist of GG , GG is a TOP lvl application its very hard to get around it (despite desabling it, what should be easy to detect)
Actually that isn't correct. Bot/Macro/Mouse control programs are a priority of game guard, if you are to believe promotional websites. And yes, the game can be loaded without game guard. And yes, that is what the bots do. That is why everyone is always saying GG is useless.
It is a really big problem for NC, and an expensive one. It is very easy to study something until you find a flaw. It is nearly impossible to build something flawless. The botters make BIG money just studying the game for flaws to make these programs. They won't stop until that money runs dry. Every time NC or GG changes, they will change.
Yet NC keeps making changes, and GMs keep banning.. Thats a lot of effort over many years while being bashed by players. sigh
Hardly a good business practise to just ban people with no proof, that would just be a mass petition war on who can petition the most to get the most people banned.
And heck, most people would simply leave the game. Heck going your approach it would actually be a better idea to ban those who complain about it, than it is to ban anyone else.
I'm not saying "Hey, ban this guy".. you know that LC.
But we all know what a train looks like. We all know how it acts. Why cant they ban *ON THAT* is what I'm saying.
Is it 100% proof the person(s) are botting? No, but its *very* close.
If your so called policy is to ban EULA violators why does no one know someone who knows someone who got banned ?
You must have missed it when the farmers were shouting in all the towns threatening to kill all the GMs and their relatives after farmer trains got banned. But this is a rare thing and almost like a holiday.
I think yes, it is. Once I was in a clan (for a very short time) and one day a guy came up saying his account was banned because of botting. He swore plain and straight he had never botted, violated the EULA, bla bla bla. Most people went, "You must have ****** someone and he reported you for botting." In the end he said he had called his lawyer who would contact NCSoft and threaten them with a lawsuit (lol?) unless they give actual proof of their claims.
Conclusion: NCSoft never gave his account back because they had "solid proof" -- whatever that means.
As you can see, NC has obviously a first hand experience what extremes some people can go to, and maybe that's why many times they infuriate the rest of us with their slugging pace.
To the original poster:
I find Draecke's explanation the best so far:
People do get banned, just not enough that people stop botting as the risk to them isn't high enough..
I think yes, it is. Once I was in a clan (for a very short time) and one day a guy came up saying his account was banned because of botting. He swore plain and straight he had never botted, violated the EULA, bla bla bla. Most people went, "You must have ****** someone and he reported you for botting." In the end he said he had called his lawyer who would contact NCSoft and threaten them with a lawsuit (lol?) unless they give actual proof of their claims.
Conclusion: NCSoft never gave his account back because they had "solid proof" -- whatever that means.
they never "tell" you what you were banned for because you might be able to figure out away around it. had a clannie get banned for what-ever(don't really care) had hid lawyer contact NC and they sent a reply summin about "we have proof but we won't tell you because of [censored] [censored] [censored]" so that just shows that unless you actually take it to court they can ban for no reason
People do get banned, just not enough that people stop botting as the risk to them isn't high enough..
Actually the risk is never high enough because for some of them its such a fundamentally needed aspect of their game enjoyment as they'd be out of the game either way.
Then there's the actual farmers or "side run" bot farms, where its a calculated business risk really.
I hope NCNA can do something like NC Taiwan does, NC Taiwan has a banned list on their offical site, they post the toon names, the reason why the toons banned and how many days (they can suspend the toons for 10 days or perm ban) the toons is being banned. It also has a search function on the list...
Like a lot of people mention before, some high lvl toon is a botter, if they eventually get caught for botting, their toon name will be on the list for the Lineage Communtity. It will be a good warning for the people thinking for botting (not include the adena bot)...
As is very popular, I blame the current Administration for the Idaho hoax that has been perpetrated on America.
Similarly, I have not been to Oregon and am quite sure it's the same as Idaho.
It's the depth of this conspiracy that worries me....all the history books and teachers who use them, maps and atlas' published by major corporations, Howard Johnson pretending they have motels in those places......they have even involved the NCAA in pretending there are college teams from these places!
I just don't know who to trust anymore!
ROFL
Now I do know that Oregon does exist, because I was born and raised there. In fact I still live there. :D
So I think I just shut down one of your hoaxes :p
Sorry about changing the subject but I had to respond to the quote.
I hope NCNA can do something like NC Taiwan does, NC Taiwan has a banned list on their offical site, they post the toon names, the reason why the toons banned and how many days (they can suspend the toons for 10 days or perm ban) the toons is being banned. It also has a search function on the list...
Like a lot of people mention before, some high lvl toon is a botter, if they eventually get caught for botting, their toon name will be on the list for the Lineage Communtity. It will be a good warning for the people thinking for botting (not include the adena bot)...
I'd like seeing a PUBLIC list like that. Maybe then we would *possibly* stop reading/ listening to flame wars like, "You botted", "No, YOU botted", "Idiot", "Moron", "Pk, pk, pk!" "NO! I pk pk pk YOU."
LOL
"mass petition someone" is the way on franz/teon atm, renevan for example got mass petitioned and banned for no reason, a shame really that they only act on that
Fers, that's not entirely true. Now I'm not saying that mistakes never happen, but our GM team looks at chat logs and all manner of in-game action logs, and thoroughly investigate reports of botting. Only if we come up with hard proof can we really ban someone. It has to be this way in the event that we have to provide proof--legally, we cannot just ban someone on a hunch. Granted, a lot of times banned folks will swear up and down they did nothing wrong, and of course their friends will believe them, but we always have the logs that prove otherwise. :/
Yes, mistakes ... the one little "NCSoft mistake" happened in February 2006 on the NA Server Gustin. You Guys permanently banned my friends: GnuMar, Caabal, joschi, Arabahaki, MugiMugi because of mass petition caused by their enemies. Thank you NCSoft Team, great job.
Yes, mistakes ... the one little "NCSoft mistake" happened in February 2006 on the NA Server Gustin. You Guys permanently banned my friends: GnuMar, Caabal, joschi, Arabahaki, MugiMugi because of mass petition caused by their enemies. Thank you NCSoft Team, great job.
My previous quote definitely applies to that one.
. . . a lot of times banned folks will swear up and down they did nothing wrong, and of course their friends will believe them, but we always have the logs that prove otherwise.
But this topic has steered off track. The forums are not the place to discuss individual bans for this very reason. We cannot release any account information to the public.