Just a little background, I did a break of L2 for around 12 months and I am now back to L2 since 2 months.
Now I wanted to ask what legit duos/trios etc. can do to get some xp on Teon e.g. within the catacombs/necros/IOP/outdoor places etc..
I mean 14 months ago we didnt had a problem getting enough mobs outside of catas (afk players were only in catas). Now I see that it doesnt matter where you go, your afk friends are there (outside and in cata). Well I know that this is a common problem so why bother, help report etc.
But sometime ago we made a discovery - we were not able to even level in e.g. Disciples Necro, because 90% rooms were full and 90% of them afk... 14 months ago I would have trained them, np, farmers die fast - but now not enough mobs to train with (most rooms empty) and even more sad -> behind the new afkers there are now people from big clans and the afkers are very strong parties (full s-grade gear, OE weapons, SS etc. - definately not only china farmers anymore) - that means no chance to train them... and if you do -> prepare for "strangely appearing clanies" who go defend them.
Now I ask myselfe what can we legit player do to also level a bit and defend us against this crowd? I mean asking them nice can we have room for 1-3 hours doesnt work (it worked earlier because you could train them and they gave you room for free afterwards). But now they ignore you or dont even bother with you, sure they are full equiped and many are even afk NOBLESS...!
Well so our only weapon is to report them... taking around 1-2 hours of your time you can report maybe one catacomb - okay no xp this day then but what shalls - sadly though you know that they dont go away so fast or ever... (e.g. if I pm my reported groups 1 month later, most still here..) - so I understand why many people give up doing so.
So now what are you guys doing in this case? How can we defend us against it? My hope still is that you NCSoft help us because you are our only weapon against them... all we want is getting some XP too... since we cant level 24h a day like the afkers or always going with big parties to Forge of Gods, Pagan etc.... it would be great if we would get some help. Reporting is ok if we see it work, but also make it easier accessible, writing all names of around 100 Afkers in 1 cata only is something noone writes down in the 255 limited petition system... maybe just walk through a cata once a week and check them... there would so many ways to help us :(
Please please help the true players enjoy this game too!!!!
Honestly I don't know what to say here as I have yet to see those "non farmer" afk bots get banned.. maybe try sending a pm to HGM Spam here as he used to do the occasional run through those cata/necro's and ban them.
It's the same on every server, even worse on the populated ones.
And it is true as you say. When nothing happens when you petition the most obvious cases, you wonder why you still bother.
If not to deal with the illegit, atleast to make it possible for the normal players to play the game.
This has been brought up before but it's yet to be answered, how come it is the way it is.
I used to wonder the exact same thing ... you know even if they had 1 GM patrolling all servers, like spend 3-4 hours of his/her working day walking around the map banning bots the game would be bot free.
Flip side of this is though that if they did that even the populated servers would end up with 500 people logged on instead of 3-5k.
And yes teon is really really bad. I did a walkaround with my bd on SM a couple of weeks ago at like 3-4 am GMT, server was "Busy" and all the popular spots where 100% bots... IoP / IT / Disciples / Saints / Dark Omens / Blazing / Hot Springs /Varka / Ketra , it was kinda ridiculous
Yep normal players are having a very hard time to level at the moment... even in FOD, Blazing Swamp, 90% automated... thats why I always wonder why we have to report bots names... its too much efford in the 255 limited petition system. Just name the area and then maybe a GM patrols it for some minutes...
I really please you NCSoft, help the true players get some XP too. I would really love to login in the evenings and see some spots free so we can go xping... I know we can never compete with 24h players but at leasat give as a chance :(
@BotdrX: Well I know many people who dont bot, surely its sadly not even half of server I guess, but in the long run I am sure it would pay off and it would help the game much more than just ignoring it... if you loose all real players its as bad as you loos all afkers...
I just wish they would bring back some of the old game mechanics so bots would again have a harder time than players (drop on death etc.) - at those times there were rarely afkers outside catas and also they only leveld in low grade gear etc. which helped a lot to train and get rid of them... now they are "game mechanically" protected :(
P.S. I will now run through a catacomb and report all I find, that will be some work though...
Do what I did when CoA got taken over ny the souless ones on Seighardt. Take some screenshots, take down some names, and make a report through the NCSoft support site. Explain that you are mot just reporting a few bots here and there, but a whole catacomb taken over. Attach the screenshots to your report. Wait a couple of days and then go back to the catacomb you filed the report for. In my case, that cata stayed clean for quite a while, and I've continued to report bots when they croipped up.
So far I have not seen this problem on Bartz.. not to say that I've never bumped into a bot - I probably have - but I have not noticed any glaring problem yet (only 34 atm).
Well thats normal for lvl 34, wait for your 60-70+ or check locations in 50+60+ catacombs... 34 is a level where they run through so fast you wont ever see them anyway.
@Romanova: Yeah I know that they could logout, but I am sure GMs can walk invisible through an area ;)
u can't deny the fact bots are paying accounts = profit for NC. but what's the point when all the real people leave the game and L2 would die sonner then you think...
what they did in China was to make some servers bot-free(officially bans any account that uses any kind of 3rd-party programs, well maybe not all of them, but GM certainly do something). if NC doesn't wanna do anything bout the exising bots, u can at least try that. surely someone would turn to power-lvling, but the money involved would soar up dramatically. and there is always a way to identify a bot, so don't tell us u tried... as for the GM force-logoff, maybe they can make a non-GM char just for scouting, it would be better if they actually responded to the petitions.
L2 is the best MMORPG game i've seen so far, i'm sure lots of ppl would come back given a fair chance. and don't let some bots ruin it, when it comes too easy, something within dies. NC really need to show that they care 'bout real flesh and blood players too, we are just enjoying the game and this vastly gorgeous world, we really care about it. but afterall it's just a game, not some feudalistic serfdom. let us have a chance.
off topic tho, it's sad that even with all those bots, u got what 30+ lvl 80+ chars across all servers, someone needs to bot harder lol
Well, I would not be hopeful. Player hostility toward bots and adena farmers has been in place since the first day L2 launched in North America. As far as I can tell, to date they have done almost nothing about it. I guess in theory Gameguard was supposed to stop it, but in practice it doesn't stop bots, it just causes headaches for legit players.
Best thing is for players to just train mobs to the bots. Since I will have fake death as a Treasure Hunter, I plan to do it ALL THE TIME. >:)
I train the cheating [censored] every chance I get. They own the L2 economy, they exploit the manor system, and they flood the market with mats at the average selling price, sometimes above average. Let's face it, the only legit ways for new players to make it in this game is to depend on rich friends or use the manor system, but when the manor system is monopolized by bots the new players get shut out.
NCSoft could eliminate bots if they really wanted to.
Not just replying to Vaeder, but this whole thread is next to pointless.
Perhaps I can break down the relevant points from OP?
a) I tried to go into a cata and couldn't find a room that wasn't being farmed.
b) I trained them and "uber clan x" showed up and rolled me.
c) I don't know what to do.......
A couple of clarifications--no part of the petition system takes "2-3 hours". It takes 3-4 minutes. You do not need screen shots as they don't usually prove anything anyway. However if it makes you feel better then get them and go through the support suggestion made above.
It's enough to petition "I rolled bot BritneySpears and xdeathx from uber-clanx arrived in 16 seconds to kill me for it--he was not present with the botting farmer party before I killed them".
You're done. Go back to playing. Only a fool would stand around waiting to see if/when an answer comes back. The answer is just going to be "we'll look into it--thanks" anyway.
Secondly, whether you're fabricating stories about catas taken over by bots or duo'ing in the fotd--the same thing ALWAYS holds true in L2. The strong win. If I try to go into VOS and an uber clan/group is there on their subclasses, I have little choice but to go somewhere else. I can TRY to hunt near them--but they will probably kill me for poaching on their time/spot. And there isn't a **** thing I can do about it.
Finally, it is absolutely fascinating to me that bots have been substantially reduced--spam pm'ing has been greatly reduced or even eliminated--all server populations are down and OBVIOUSLY a ban hammer fell again.
Yet, no one said a word on these threads. Not one chronically complaining whiner who posts incessantly about bots has even acknowledged the change/improvement.
So you run into a cata where YOUR FELLOW PLAYERS (probably from substantial clans) are CHEATING--and your complaint is, predictably yet again, with NCSoft?!?!?! Just lol!
Nothing has changed. Report the bots & enforcers--every time. It doesn't matter if the toon arriving as an enforcer is tagged or not--report them all. It takes 3 minutes.
In the end, if you won't do that and you can't beat the enforcer then you do what everyone does--you go to an alternate place. The strong, legit or not (and many are not), control everything in L2--and they always have.
Sorry DrakkosIV but you are seriously wrong in interpreting what I wanted to say with my post.
My main point was, that due to the changes in CT5 upwards etc. (removing the drop rules etc.) legit players are having a hard time to train afkers. Before it were mostly farmers with low gear, now its also mostly perfectly balanced clan/player afk parties -> Since those have big money and nothing to loose they bot now in s-grade gear and with oe weapons and believe me one thing there is nearly no chance anymore to easily train them, because you need at least 2 full rooms of mobs to get them down... and those you cant find because all other rooms are also full of them...
That is something which was completly different in earlier times. Also in outdoor areas you barely saw afkers, now you go to Blazing Swamp and you see 90% afkers... please tell me how to level there... there is even not much you can train with there and it takes too much effort and time to do this every day just to go out and level a bit (I did it all the times the last weeks when working on nobless)... but its not fun to train 1-2 hours to free a spot if you only have 2-3 hours to play?
So I really have nothing against the strong... but if the strong are using 3rd party tools to reach their goals then our only chance and hope is to get support from NCSoft, thats all!
And thats why I hope they will help... its just a horrible situation at the moment in Teon and you cant report all those afkers... it would be around 80+ only in disciples... another 80+ in Blazing Swamp ... how to report that in a 255 petition window?....
Even though its sad to see nobless people who are on your bot list and now in normal clans, I can live with that, but if you have a hard time to find a spot so you as a real player can also xp a bit in the evenings (because of afkers who run 24h and always occupy) , I think its fair to ask for support on NCSoft side.
Kind regards,
Rin
P.S. PMing Spam sounds nice, I never did that before, but I can try, thx for the suggestions.
So you run into a cata where YOUR FELLOW PLAYERS (probably from substantial clans) are CHEATING--and your complaint is, predictably yet again, with NCSoft?!?!?! Just lol!
I'm sorry but I don't understand. Who should we be complaining to? Casper the Friendly Ghost? And, quite frankly, it IS NCSoft's responsibility, not the players'. The key word here is 'cheating', but it's not just that they're cheating, it's that they're cheating and monopolizing the best catacomb rooms for days on end. If everything was instanced and these bots had their own little playgrounds they could use, I probably wouldn't care...until I go to turn in manor fruit.
Point is, they take the best catacomb xp spots, they cheat the manor system by using automated turn-in scripts, and they flood the market with mats. Top to bottom they're a problem and seem to be getting worse on Lionna.
Yes, I petition them. Then I train them. I leave to resupply and they're already back up and running before I get back to my catacomb spot. Sometimes I train them again but i've learned to wait and watch before doing so a 2nd or 3rd time. Sometimes the owner shows up while i'm standing there watching.
Bot: "hi"
Me: "botting?"
Bot: "no"
Me: "somehow I don't believe you"
Bot: "ur lvl?"
It's so funny and infuriating at the same time to ask that as I watch 8 other toons mechanically following the one talking to me performing the same routine actions over and over.
NCSoft doesn't need 6-12 months and a host of monitoring software to identify and ban a botter. Anyone who spends 5 minutes in a catacomb can tell you who the botters are.
You do not need screen shots as they don't usually prove anything anyway.
My understanding of the above post was that the screen shots were used for getting names in areas full of bots without sitting there writing them down in a petition window. Not as "proof" of botting. NC has to investigate either way they don't go by your word. Also, the online support window allows more typing and once you hit submit you don't have to stay logged in game. (I am pretty sure if you log with an in-game petition window open it closes the petition)
NCSoft doesn't need 6-12 months and a host of monitoring software to identify and ban a botter. Anyone who spends 5 minutes in a catacomb can tell you who the botters are.
Well.. yes and no. Mistakes can be made and NC should do what they can to prevent mistakes when it comes to banning legit players. Also if someone does decide to challenge their ban in court (it happens) NC is going to look pretty stupid if they come to court with a GM saying "well it sure looked like he was a bot."
NCSoft doesn't need 6-12 months and a host of monitoring software to identify and ban a botter. Anyone who spends 5 minutes in a catacomb can tell you who the botters are.
Well.. yes and no. Mistakes can be made and NC should do what they can to prevent mistakes when it comes to banning legit players. Also if someone does decide to challenge their ban in court (it happens) NC is going to look pretty stupid if they come to court with a GM saying "well it sure looked like he was a bot."
Perhaps, but if they can prove someone is botting by using monitoring software then logic demands that they can also prevent botting programatically.
You do not need screen shots as they don't usually prove anything anyway.
My understanding of the above post was that the screen shots were used for getting names in areas full of bots without sitting there writing them down in a petition window. Not as "proof" of botting. NC has to investigate either way they don't go by your word. Also, the online support window allows more typing and once you hit submit you don't have to stay logged in game. (I am pretty sure if you log with an in-game petition window open it closes the petition)
NCSoft doesn't need 6-12 months and a host of monitoring software to identify and ban a botter. Anyone who spends 5 minutes in a catacomb can tell you who the botters are.
Well.. yes and no. Mistakes can be made and NC should do what they can to prevent mistakes when it comes to banning legit players. Also if someone does decide to challenge their ban in court (it happens) NC is going to look pretty stupid if they come to court with a GM saying "well it sure looked like he was a bot."
Indeed, the screen shots do show the player's names. Beyond that, I can't really explain why they work better. When I say I it works, I'm not supplying a line of reasoning. I'm just telling people that I tried petitioning GMs, and I tied reporting on teh NCSoft supprt website with screenshots attachments. One way has always worked, the other way has mostly failed. To the posters who say the screenshot attachments don't work - what part of the word "experience" don't you understand?
Very simple solution that I have seen in another game.
Give players the option to report a player for AFK botting. When the player hits the button, the alleged bot gets a system message asking for a response (ie, "Ghostwhisper has accused you of leveling while AFK. Please type 12AB if you are not AFK.")
If they do not respond within XX seconds, then they get smacked with an xp penalty and booted to login screen.
Only problem is that this system could be abused too. Perhaps best to limit it to dungeons only initially. But basically if you give players the ability to enforce it, this problem will go away very quickly.
Very simple solution that I have seen in another game.
Give players the option to report a player for AFK botting. When the player hits the button, the alleged bot gets a system message asking for a response (ie, "Ghostwhisper has accused you of leveling while AFK. Please type 12AB if you are not AFK.")
If they do not respond within XX seconds, then they get smacked with an xp penalty and booted to login screen.
Only problem is that this system could be abused too. Perhaps best to limit it to dungeons only initially. But basically if you give players the ability to enforce it, this problem will go away very quickly.
I see one problem with this.
The 3rd party programs can easy auto enter the required keys. Just like the forum bots that register at 1000s of forums all acros the internett and spam advertisment as much as they can.
Player xdeathx the high level farmer & bot enforcer shouldn't necessarily get banned because I say I saw him botting. I don't think any of us would really appreciate that system since eventually we'd get banned for nothing.
The thing is, at 4:30pm I petition about xdeathx. The gm's do or don't look into it. At 4:50pm ghostwhisperer petitions about xdeathx. The gm's do or don't look into it. As this continues, even the laziest and most useless GM in the game should be able to say, "gee, 12 people have petitioned xdeathx in the past 3 hours--maybe I should check it out". A PROCESS, fueled by any number of points of feedback, is what triggers the investigation to see whether xdeathx has done something outside of the EULA. Not my "opinion" and not yours either.
Regardless of the system, it will never work to the point where you can report me, stand there for 4 minutes, watch me get eliminated by the ban hammer, and then take over my hunting spot.
That's never been an expectation.
Sure, we all have situations where we've seen the same toons for hours (days). But the question is how many didn't even bother to petition? When the enforcer showed up--how many didn't petition THAT toon? I'll bet the answer is pretty high.
All I'm saying is you petition--you take a shot at the bots/enforcer--and whether you took the shot or not you move to an alternate location.
As much as we all want these cheaters gone, I also don't want flagrant abuses.
We had a small party (with 3 oop toons for 4 manned toons) in Pilgrims last weekend. Before a new buff round, I said I'd be afk a minute as we were safely in the hall. When I came back after a couple minutes all the others were afk.
Had anyone tried to talk to us for a few minutes though (although we were in the hall and not moving) we could not have responded.
Someone doesn't like our clan takes that opportunity to petition and some GM somewhere sends me an instruction--I'm not even in-game to respond. Do I deserve to get banned?
Really, you have to THINK about these concepts and potential "fixes" you envision before you just spout them off.
Good points above. :) Report the bots. If doing it in-game hasn't been effective try the website.
I also disagree with users (or even gms without proof) banning botters. There are ways that people can LOOK like bots. For example.. sitting afk as mentioned above. Auto following, Macro assists/buffs, 2 or 3 boxing, Turning off PMs to avoid spam, having the wrong chat window open, or one I just learned this past week.. allowing drunken house guests to "try" to play. ^^;;
Also I can understand why there is no software running to detect bots. I could imagine that kind of detection would A, have to be created on the Korean side. and B, cause significant game lag. Gameguard is bad enough as it is. ^^;;
We had a small party (with 3 oop toons for 4 manned toons) in Pilgrims last weekend. Before a new buff round, I said I'd be afk a minute as we were safely in the hall. When I came back after a couple minutes all the others were afk.
Had anyone tried to talk to us for a few minutes though (although we were in the hall and not moving) we could not have responded.
Someone doesn't like our clan takes that opportunity to petition and some GM somewhere sends me an instruction--I'm not even in-game to respond. Do I deserve to get banned?
No you don't deserve to get banned but you shouldn't mind if someone might report you. The reason you should be safe though, and avoid a ban is the very reason bot removal takes time and that is because GMs need good proof.
Names from people and screenies etc go towards this proof. GMs/NCSoft can then compare IPs, check logs and even "go look" for themselves.
I'm always petitioning. I don't care. I'll stand and list a dozen names if necessary.
Someone mentioned GMs cause bots to autolog on GM approach. Frankly, if that's all it takes to remove them from an area then hey ** ~ we have a solution. A GM could manually visit all the problem sites or, ironically, use an automated system to move a GM char around with the same effect.
lol It would be most amusing to have a GM toon log in and out again in every cat/necro at random intervals so all the bots force log at the risk of death or take the risk of being seen by a real GM. hehehe
Yesterday I visited the "censored" web site --we all know which is it-- to check on the situation on Luna. I found a thread where someone was complaining about his buffer having been banned.
Note No. 1: NCSoft do some banning.
Note No. 2: Players keep doing it and coming back with a new account if banned.
After some reading it was more than clear how GameGuard is being exploited and why illegal, third-party software are not traceable. Moreover, players were admitting to get their lvls and adena that way and were giving instructions how to do it "right".
Note No.3: GameGuard does not help against such programmes as there is a way around it.
Note No. 4 -- and question to myself: Do NCSoft read those posts? If anything, those posts would be useful in improving their methods of catching the said players when bot trains interfere with real players' game, giving them a hard time.
P.S. To further support my Note No.1: I witnessed NCSoft's ban hammer during the first week on Luna. There was a sudden restart of the server, and whem I logged in back the bot population was noticeable decreased. Additionally, toons advertising adena sales and account selling disappeared after being reported.
I can complain about NCSoft's services when they mess with it, but I like also being fair to them when they do something right.
It's not that NC/GMs don't want to take care of bots. They simply can't cos of US retar ted legal system. The key words are 'beyond reasonable doubts'. When any given bot is banned NC need to have a strong case against them - strong enought to hold in court. That's why it takes so much time and often fails.
It's not that NC/GMs don't want to take care of bots. They simply can't cos of US retar ted legal system. The key words are 'beyond reasonable doubts'. When any given bot is banned NC need to have a strong case against them - strong enought to hold in court. That's why it takes so much time and often fails.
That's what I do not understand. When you buy the game, you enter a contract with NCSoft. And this contract has a clause which allows the player to stop playing/paying at any time (by cancelling payment in the account management), and it also allows NCSoft to end the contract at any time FOR WHATEVER REASON from their side (banning the account). They do not need to have any "proof". They just have to say "we do no longer want you as a customer". The only problem I see is with the rest of the play time the player paid for. But then he agreed to give NCSoft the right to kick him out at any time, for whatever reason. He did not have to agree to this clause, after all, he could just have chosen not to play L2.