Hi all. I thought I posted this already, but don't see it. If it winds up showing twice, I apologize in advance!
Anyway, I just turned TH and I am trying to understand the following core skills: Accuracy, Vicious Stance, Backstab & Deadly Blow.
As far as Accuracy, I'm wondering if you recommending running with it basically always on. It seems like such a natural compensator for Human weakness with daggers. But I do find MP management hard, so this would make it harder.
As far as Backstab and Deadly Blow, I'm trying to better understand their pro's and con's. Even from behind, Backstab doesn't seem to land much more often than Deadly Blow. It can crit, but costs like 1.5x as much MP. Thoughts?
Last, I'm wondering how leaving Vicious Stance on compares to using 1 or 2 Deadly Blows per fight, both in terms of damage output and MP consumption. I think I read one guide that suggested this is a better (if not more boring) approach than using special attacks while grinding.
While waiting for advice, I have been experimenting. I think that, with the Daggery Mastery short-term passive buff (makes your attacks cost very little MP), it certainly makes sense to use a blow or backstab when the buff is up.
So far, I find Vicious Stance is just far too costly to keep it up all or most of the time. It does do the most damage tho.
Accuracy - I am reaching a point where its cost basically ties my regen rate. So I can leave it on and rely on pots to compensate for my blows. But in a party that would not necessarily work.
Yep I'm asking from the PvE point of view for now. So keeping my MP stable is more a concern - in PvP I would just assume blow it all as fast as possible in an effort to take down my opponent.
For PvE, I don't use VS anymore because of the dagger mastery thing,(i just spam stabs in those 5 secs) and use accuracy on evasion mobs, and higher level mobs., with that dagger mastery it's just simply stab away till it wears off, and it comes up alot
Can anyone help explain the real differences between my blow and my backstab? I understand the backstab is supposed to be from behind.. it doesn't seem to have any higher chance of landing than a blow, and costs quite a bit more MP. What's the deal?
Does anyone know of any parsing or data that has been gathered on landing rate? And also whether blow's land rate improves from behind at all?
My feeling from playing over the past 8 levels is that backstab doesn't seem to land any more often than blow at all. It's possible backstab has a higher %, but that both are low enough that I don't really perceive the difference. IE, if blow lands 20% of the time and backstab 30%, I probably wouldn't notice one being better.
Honestly, when I first got backstab, I was assuming it would be close to 100% land if done from behind. I was really disappointed to find out I'm still only landing 1 in 4 or 1 in 5.
With levels it doesn't increase in land rate, just damage. you'll need something like might mortal (no longer makeable only a few around) to increase stab land rate
I think the stab rates are
25% front 50% side 75% back
backstab 0% front 5% side(glitch?) 80% back
Might mortal increases chance by like 40% so it would be
65% front 90% side 100% back
backstab 100% back roughly
You see why it's no longer makeable as that is overpowering
Anyway, I was testing again tonight and if Backstab is supposed to be 80% land from behind, then I am the unluckiest person in the world. I get about 1 in 3 to land. =/
Well, math is math. And math governs the game's rules. If I'm consistently landing 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 times, night after night, then I highly doubt the move has anywhere near an 80% success rate.
Yes it is math, but it is probability, and probability is not absolute
Like for instance a 60% craft doesn't man you craft 100 items and 40 of them blows up, matter of fact, all of them could blow up or all of them could be successes.
If you craft 100 60% recipes, the odds that they would all blow up would be (.40)^100 = about 1 in 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000. Is it possible? Yes. If it happened to you several nights in a row, would you strongly question whether the formula you were being given was correct? Absolutely.
Accuracy - I am reaching a point where its cost basically ties my regen rate. So I can leave it on and rely on pots to compensate for my blows. But in a party that would not necessarily work.
Unless I have been missinformed, the MP cost for Accuracy has been greatly increased in Gracia... enjoy it while it lasts
Aww old lies die hard.
MB & DB, BB, CBlow-> Blow success rate is not influenced by positioning,
crit rate is.
Blows hitting better from the side /behind etc is an old myth.
Up until c2 Blow success rate been influenced by Crit rate. They changed it C3. Crit rate does not affect blow success rate anymore.
Backstab is 100% behind, rest zero. If you happen to hit someone from the side or front, lag -> positioning glitch.
This is why you can still consider Backstab as a "luck" Skill like DB.
For a godlike Stabber you need a lot of positioning expirience, or a 15ms ping. :)
Daggers used to be a pure luck class, now until you hit 3th class consider yourself a luck shooter.
Sidenote: this game does glitch a lot with positioning. Just look at the melee "range" or grab a pole and realise how worse it can get.
Backstab can Crit* (2x Damage), Lethal (1HP, cp are untouched). For Lethal hits, you don't need to hit, wich also means you don't need to be behind the target.
common stabs, same lethal rule only target get's reduced to half his remaining HP., you don't need to hit to lethal. If you do, you get half hp + damage. Lethal at PVP CP = 1, if the target doesn't have cp, the above rule applies.
And lethal can sometimes actualy be a nerf.
Lethaled a keltir at 78, it had half HP remaining :/
No. The point is that those rates you suggest are not correct. No way does blow have a 75% land rate. Nor do I believe Backstab has an 80% land rate from behind. Nor do I think positioning influences landing rate for blows (especially since NCsoft made a point to say that positioning *will* impact attack moves in CT2 - they advertised it as a new feature, which implies it is not in the game now).
Blows hitting better from the side /behind etc is an old myth. Up until c2 Blow success rate been influenced by Crit rate. They changed it C3. Crit rate does not affect blow success rate anymore.
I could confirm this through the patch notes. He is correct.
The success rates of Mortal Blow, Deadly Blow, and Backstab skills were adjusted so as not to be affected by the skills that increase critical rates. MP costs of such skills were reduced.
(C3 Patch Notes)
Backstab is 100% behind, rest zero. If you happen to hit someone from the side or front, lag -> positioning glitch.
Are you sure? How does this game define "behind"? Because I miss my backstabs A LOT. (ping is ~80ms)
Backstab is 100% behind, rest zero. If you happen to hit someone from the side or front, lag -> positioning glitch.
wrong I been in a 1 on 1 PVP and with PVE we both going at it no one moving around or turning at all and I had Backstab land and even Lethal from the frount facing them.
We used to hit always from behind but the game wasn't glitching much up to c2, it got worse every chronicle.
Besides the glitches do occur more with a bad ping, i can play either my old us server with 190 ping or a euro with 15,
I yet alone need realistic 2secs to even target someone, spamming clicks on US.
But the things we know for sure: backstab has not a rate implied in the description, neither did a patch or C-CT ever change it.
---
concerning regular blow success rates, there is this old c1 leaked server missinformation floating around, but since the source got altered an "fixed" and labeled "original". Well your shoot to "trust" that. I for my part know:
There have never been information released concerning the success rate, what i know for a fact is:
During C2 we did hit 16 out of 20 blows with MM sa (+60% old SA)
So since l2 programmers have been lazy they probably used the same magic nummer wich they used for anything else 1/3 - 60% Base rate. adding 60% you rougly have 80% + c2 crit rate bonus.
Factor in the korean random, and there you go. ...
<<><<><<><
I for myself setteld with, DB can hit. I only rely on BStab;)
Backstab is 100% behind, rest zero. If you happen to hit someone from the side or front, lag -> positioning glitch.
wrong I been in a 1 on 1 PVP and with PVE we both going at it no one moving around or turning at all and I had Backstab land and even Lethal from the frount facing them.
Since when do mobs always face right ?! Mobs just get random facing spawns, as soon as they move you've got a glimpse of the right direction. But even then they love to just turn random when they make a "step backwards". Just get yourself to a mob and watch it.
Oh right, you don't glitch when everyone does.....
Lethal, well look foryourself what i else wrote.
Even i had friends out to confirm this, since i've seen around c5, daggers poping out, backstabin me from front, hell i thought what's up with those, probably just jumped the "Haxxor dagger train" and know nothing.
So i spend probably like 4 hours in the arena each day, foolign around, guess what, i coordinated with friends, hell once out of 200s my stab landed front, considering this low number i dumb it under GLITCH.
>Cause i also know, klicking to close to someones position let you get behind him , but you show up in front.< (nice pvp trick btw)
And even i have been hitting backstabs from the front, but never happened to myself. I just laugh at those Daggers doing it on my Advent., sure win for me.
I would be completely shocked if it were 100%. There are many times when I use it in PvE when the mob is not moving AT ALL. I don't think that is correct information.
Heh ? Missinformation like always ashley.
No go away already,
Those two thing actually have nothing to do whetever you hit bs 100% or not.
1. I have 2 mm dagger (yeah mines bigger - though i don't use em AS > mm you simply don't need it at 3th class. |Adeventuers Ashley).
2. TH -> Adven , shuss. Windy.
Back to topic, ashleys had a valid point, *if* facing would be like most people think. It's not, it's a total mess. So everytime you hit from front, you didn't. (and i' not adding tons of *if* *and* maybe* under this special situation, i did already reason it out, use your own mind and figure it out)
Facts: We have no offical information about Bstab landrate.
Skill description states clearly it's not a chance from behind.<<<<<<<<<<
(this is offical).
Personal note: The skill used to hit always from behind. Back then when positioning wasn't as buged as now. No Patch notes ever indicate a change in land rate. This is as much as i know for sure.
The time the mob is moving, that's the only true moment when you know where it's back is. For Players as soon as they hit you, they do face you.
To sum it up: You know positioning is bugged, you know what the skill says. You made your own "test".
-------------------------------------------------------
Either you believe mobs and players don't face probably and you "miss", or you believe the skill has only a high Chance.
Both end up the same.
-------------------------------------------------------
Considering most players still believe mb blow land rate is still affected by positioning (look into the old topics here you will even find hero adventureres believing it..hell 78 and no clue bout their class).
Make your decision, i provided everything i know.
But after all, it doesn't madder, you're gonna lethal em anyway later on, missing or not.
Backstab is 100% behind, rest zero. If you happen to hit someone from the side or front, lag -> positioning glitch.
wrong I been in a 1 on 1 PVP and with PVE we both going at it no one moving around or turning at all and I had Backstab land and even Lethal from the frount facing them.
She's quite right, she landed backstab on me once in the front when her bluff skill failed to turn but just stun it's not supposed to land in the front but there's a really slight chance that it does. I've yet to be lethaled...
Ow tell me bout Switch and Trick in pvp again, how was it ?
Switch changes the mobs target which is pointless if your solo, trick takes away target completely which in PvE is used with silent move on to drop target. In PvP it's used to drop target which gets annoying if your not spamming clicks on the TH
Speaking of wich. Here's the complete info:
Try switch also next time TH got 2 cancel target skills in pvp.
And i hate to repeat myself, leathals do land even without actually "landing a skill".
I never said 100% now who is misinformed? the poster above said something about 100% I never said 100% I said I have gotten it 2 land during some test I did with no moving around. my whole point was that it do land and it's not 0% from the front....all daggers have Back Stab so your point of.....whatever the hell you said about TH or PW (I'm guessing from windy) lol I really can't tell what your saying at the start of that post. now you go away and correct your spelling. ;)
What I want to know from mYhero is - why do you choose to believe "it has always been 100% but NCsoft broke mob facing" instead of believing "it does not have 100% land rate"? Because the 2nd case seems much more likely to me.
Do you feel like you know how to make it land 100% of the time when you play, basically? Because I go right behind the mob and my backstab is probably about 50/50. My blow is probably 25% landing rate. (that one I was calculating this morning, while killin blue mobs waiting for mammon BS to show up)
You are. I admire your will to help, but learn to read properly. You always get something wrong. Or overread something. It's awfull. How you now come up with: how you did say 100% or not is beyond me. I never questioned that in the post.
@Ghostwhiper
Facts: We have no offical information about Bstab landrate.
Skill description states clearly it's not a chance from behind.<<<<<<<<<<
(this is offical).
Either you believe mobs and players don't face probably and you "miss", or you believe the skill has only a high Chance.
Both end up the same.
I do. Some don't, i leave it to them. I've half my L2 TH life fought against the "mb hit better from behind rule", i'm not willing to waste so much resources for this one.
I don't know if ashley or any other old Dagger will confirm that Backstab used to hit always from behind(before and after C3, up to C5) That's the point where those "Front backstabs" started for everyone to occur.
Still this fact is all that remains, No Patch notes state a change.
You won't find any other info concerning Backstabs land rate. That is the only one. I agree with Ashley and other people, Backstabs seem to hit in front, but as i posted i believe it's a glitch, others believe it's a feature.
@
Knightof arkness i get tired of correcting your TH posts. I did it 1 year ago, now i get back to forums only to find you playin like you know something. I hoped maybe one of you forum trolls may changed for the better, hell half your posts here are still jacked together by missleading information or incomplete ones. Oh and don't forget the spam, you're pretty **** good at it.
This is why I can never have a good character with no pks...>.<
This is why i stay white, after seeing your first post and your last, i know your not worth it.
First I'm not 100% wrong that's a Bold face lie right there and I have a ton of people that tell me my advice is excellent. I have over 4 years under my belt and 8 high level alts. You would think I know a little something by now.
ashley, huh what ?
Quote:
I never said 100% now who is misinformed?
You are. I admire your will to help, but learn to read properly. You always get something wrong. Or overread something. It's awfull. How you now come up with: how you did say 100% or not is beyond me. I never questioned that in the post.
Um.......read that Quote to your self and then you can understand why I can't understand what the hell your saying. It's not that I Can't read (Most of the people that post questions can't read) I just can't read what the hell your saying. :D
No i know more cause i play l2 5 years, KCB and have 10 s-grade alts. :p
C'mon telling to trust you through telling your trustworthy is phatetic.
It's L2 and if one thing is certain, your level nor your equip means anything, nor mine. I get sick of telling people they can't port during siege times while they hero glow.
Ah **** i feet the troll. :D
Time to let this topic advance,
1. There is no offical info on BS land rate.
2. I say its a glitch, others say it's a feature.
3. THs are Luck fighters, either way you never know.
4. Being Adventurer changes a lot, you're a high DD Paper Boy. Sometimes one-shooting Duelists or get one shooted.
5. Enjoy Lineage II
korean closed beta? mmm. r u from korea btw? anyways, i like u :) and i think you know what you're talking about, altho i hate daggers, especially TH. those type-II lethals hurt a lot :/
No i know more cause i play l2 5 years, KCB and have 10 s-grade alts. :p 1. 7characters to a server and 2. no life whatsoever, gg
C'mon telling to trust you through telling your trustworthy is phatetic. ashley is known as trustworthy, who knows you?
It's L2 and if one thing is certain, your level nor your equip means anything, nor mine. I get sick of telling people they can't port during siege times while they hero glow. what does that have to do with TH's? or anything? lol
Ah **** i feet the troll. :D Yea you're doing it again
Time to let this topic advance,
1. There is no offical info on BS land rate. look it up
2. I say its a glitch, others say it's a feature. either way goes
3. THs are Luck fighters, either way you never know. yep
4. Being Adventurer changes a lot, you're a high DD Paper Boy. Sometimes one-shooting Duelists or get one shooted. Definately not paper for sure,
5. Enjoy Lineage II I do w/o wasteing my most of my time on it
I don't think you should hold someone's language against them. Especially since so many Americans speak worse English than he does. (Please don't make me come after you on grammar and spelling!)
As far as these points, I tried to test this idea about Backstab over the weekend. We were fighting some HPx4 mobs with very high pdef, so it gave me an opportunity. I decided to position myself "behind" the mob, and since the fights were lasting a while, I could get two backstabs in.
I discovered that, without either the mob or myself or the tank ever moving, I could sometimes land 1 out of the 2 backstabs. Therefore I believe I completely disproved mYHero's theory. If what he said were correct, I should have always gotten either 2 backstabs landing, or 0 (based on whether I was truly behind it or not).
Instead, the 1 out of 2 outcome proves that it has a chance to land, and therefore a chance to miss.
As for what the chance is, if "behind" is such a sensitive thing for the game, it is very hard to calculate. My overall experience is simply 1 out of 4, just like a Blow. But others of you seem to feel it is much higher than that.
Blow - I can be pretty confident this is about 1 out of 4. After you use it 100's of times, luck is not that much of an issue anymore - it just comes down to numbers. I agree with mYHero that positioning has no impact on whether Blow will land - we confirmed this with the patchnotes, so Knight was not correct about that.
Come and get me :p and my spelling is find (hello spell checker) .....as far as my Grammar people can understand what I'm saying so that's all that matters.
The only reason I'm messing with him is because he seams 2 have a problem with me for no reason and stating things about me that are not true.
ashley, huh what ?
Quote:
I never said 100% now who is misinformed?
Plus the simple fact that during his attacks 1/2 the time I don't know what he's talking about.
However, if you guys want to take his advice over mine your free 2 do so. I'm not pointing a Gun at your head forcing you 2 take mine. ;)
And last If you READ what I post I ask him a question I didn't hold anything against him. :p
.....as far as my Grammar people can understand what I'm saying so that's all that matters.
Missing two commas. As far as my grammar, people can understand what I'm saying, so that's all that matters.
The only reason I'm messing with him is because he seams 2 have a problem with me for no reason and stating things about me that are not true.
seems*
Seams are the cracks between two edges, or the line sewed between two pieces of cloth.
However, if you guys want to take his advice over mine your free 2 do so.
you're*
"Your" is the second-person possessive.
And last If you READ what I post I ask him a question I didn't hold anything against him. :p
Fair enough, and I have no gripe with you at all. You obviously are an active and valued member of the community. :) It is just a minor pet peeve of mine when people give someone a hard time over their mastery of a 2nd or 3rd or maybe even 4th language, if they have not mastered their first yet.
I'm lost... but yea, no stab skill has a 100% land rate, as I stated earlier. In CT2, I believe that all stab skills will also have the "overhit" ability.