every game has some sort of money sink to prevent inflation.
you kill monsters loot them find money/valuables and then by game design you should spend it on something otherwise there is zero value to what you find.
the biggest money sink in WoW is the epic fly mount, in lineage2 its soul/spirit shots.
making shots the biggest money sink in l2 is that good or bad? thats not for me to decide, however here is the problem...
bots, they avoid the money sink, and everything they earn/loot from monsters is not later being reused by them to be able to continue hunting; instead its being sold for real money on ebay or other adena selling sites. People who buy adena from those sites, then come to our servers and spend that huge amounts of adena on equipment and/or other stuff, creating very big inflation.
Over 4 years NCsoft has proved that they can not fight bots. Almost every room in catas today is occuppied by bots. Instead of asking NCsoft to ban bots, how about we think of a way to create a money sink for bots. With the right money sink idea, bots will begin to disappear, and inflation would decrease by alot.
If you have an idea, on how to make bots spend money (since they dont use shots), plz discuss it here. All we need is a well worked idea which would apply to bots only, and would make it unworthy for them to keep on botting.
i'll give you few points to consider(these are simply my ideas/suggestions, and i encourage you to discuss mine as well as bring your own):
--when you not using shots and you are trained should you have a chance to drop item(s)?
--weight limit across your chars determines the time of your xp session before restocking, what could be used on bots?
--make catas/necros port you out automatically for not using shots longer then 5 mins?
Please bring as many ideas as you have, ignore mine if you dont like them, after all i only listed them to get you warmed up.
I've been in 9 people parties, all the way up to lvl 57, and told everyone "let's turn off our shots because it's easy enough to kill with 9 people" on several occasions. Everyone said, in EVERY party, "we don't want to be confused for bots".
I've been in 9 people parties, all the way up to lvl 57, and told everyone "let's turn off our shots because it's easy enough to kill with 9 people" on several occasions. Everyone said, in EVERY party, "we don't want to be confused for bots".
I have been in the same situation and been PKed or trained several times when the party desides to turn off shots.
99% of the polulation on the servers thinks that everyone that hunts without shots = bots
--when you not using shots and you are trained should you have a chance to drop item(s)?
--weight limit across your chars determines the time of your xp session before restocking, what could be used on bots?
--make catas/necros port you out automatically for not using shots longer then 5 mins?
Sadly this suggestions is complet crap.
I allways like ideas to counter bots, but this one is really bad.
Forcing players to use shots?
"sry guys I cant afford shots so I cant hunt in catas!"
Saying that you will not hunt with out SS becuse people will think you are bots? what??
I understand that almost everyone including me is using shots but that should not take away people the right not to use it.
its easy to stop bots dont allow the npc's to kill white toons only reds that way there is no way for bots to delvl other than to kill each other which will be time consuming not the least of which is the amount of players who will use the chance for free gear drops off the red bots lol but they wont implement this idea
The soulshot system is one of L2's more interesting design quirks, and while it is a money sink, it is actually about much more than that. Viewed in the context of the broader crystal system, it is a way of linking the prices in a player-driven economy to the prices NPC's charge. In this way, NCsoft is able to determine with high precision the relative values of things, even though they do not set the ultimate price.
It is also a way (along with the overenchant system) of ensuring that assets do not have a permanent life or ever fall below a certain value.
its easy to stop bots dont allow the npc's to kill white toons only reds that way there is no way for bots to delvl other than to kill each other which will be time consuming not the least of which is the amount of players who will use the chance for free gear drops off the red bots lol but they wont implement this idea
Sadly ideas that would counter bots would also hurt the player base.
I like this idea I really do, but some delevel there spoilers to hunt in the same area grinding certain mats. "I mean real players"
And I am 100% sure they would find a work around. and then only the small precentege that use it legit will be the once that is hurt.
How about doing somethingg about the drop rate. Killing mobs at lvl 72 and getting 1 or 2 basic mats about every 3rd-4th kill is rediculas. Better yet how about hunting in FOD and killing 200 mobs to complete a quest and still not get a single armor/wep part is rediculas. Changing the drop rate would go a long way to slowing/lowering the inflation and reducing the bots in this game. The above is just an example but there are many more examples like that at every lvl range.
I have been playing since C2 and the drop rate for parts has gotten worse in each chronicle. By the way so has the bot problem. Killing the same mobs over and over, D-lvling rinse repeat over and over again is not a good fomula for keeping the economy affordable. This game has the worst drop rate of any game I have ever played. Why do you think so many people want to see more events. Events are by far the best way to make a little Adena to upgrade your equipment. I don't lknow about other servers but Devianne market has been stagnent since a couple weeks after the last event. Very little selling and even less players buying.
For legit players the only way to make enough Adena to support your toons is to play the market ie.... buy and sell. When very little is selling the system doesn't work anymore.
L2 is the only game I have played where you have to buy something, i.e. shots, in order to kill mobs effectively. What makes it worse, aside from the horrible drop rate, is the fact that I will spend more in shots, sometimes, than I get in drops from the mob.
Effectively meaning, I lose money sometimes, just to level my character. I know of no other game where that is the norm.
Money sink is bad in general because there is a reason ppl cheat and buy adena. Guess what they dont have enought adena to buy all the soulshots and equipment.
Why ? Easy while spamming soulshots you dont ean much adena from hunting ( ok some DD do ) so no real income plus drops of materials or real equiment drops are to low.
Also most people are just to lazy to work months for a piece of equipment and choose the easy cheated way.
The reason why prices go up and up is because the drops and mats are just to low for crafting if you only play one character and needed recipes and key mats only drop at higher lvls when you dont need them anymore.
Also not many people play a bountyhunter to earn equipment or support other people.
This creates a short of crafting mats needed to equip your toon.
There are also players that play the market, they buy the mats cheap of all other sellshops and sell for a premium price so you are forced to pay higher prices or gain them by yourself.
Other people just buy off recipes and keymats and craft away unneeded equipment for selling. While this is ok it also creates more a short of supplys so they also get more expensive.
Indeed people get more and more money while playing but thats not the reason why prices go up.
The prices go up because people are willing to pay premium prices for items because they have that money and are to lazy to farm by semself and because if they dont have that money they go buy some.
So if you have problems to buy something because prices are to high and you lack of money why you want a money sink then also ? Isnt that stupid ?
What you need are increased drops and way inproved spoils for all items. That way you dont need to buy materials for crafts. That way you wont have a big market plus there is no real need to earn money.
If you dont have a reason to earn a lot money the pro soulless will disappear aswell.
If you dont beleave me look at the US servers with low poplulation. There is no real market because the people have almost all equipment and dont need to buy anything. Most prices for most items go down.
The only problem on that low pop servers is people that dont have all equipment getting a hard time to aquire the materials for crafts if they play alone most times.
So again all you need are increased drops and spoils of mats and the whole problem is solved.
What NC did in the past was reducing drops and spoils more and more and increase exp gain. That way you will earn even less mats and increase the whole problem.
Basicly i have to admid without the struggle of earning materials for a craft the game would be very pointless for me.
But NC wants you to spend a lot time in the game so they will lower drops and raise the exp gain again.
Hint maybe add more interesting content for all lvl ranges more fun events with good rewards and not useless change sub to main events and maybe people would stay longer.
L2 is the only game I have played where you have to buy something, i.e. shots, in order to kill mobs effectively. What makes it worse, aside from the horrible drop rate, is the fact that I will spend more in shots, sometimes, than I get in drops from the mob.
Effectively meaning, I lose money sometimes, just to level my character. I know of no other game where that is the norm.
Well this is false on two counts.
First, many games entail a cost to hunt. A more common scheme is to have wear-and-tear on gear, incurring repair costs. But this is essentially the same thing.
From that perspective, L2 is one of the few games that allows hunting for free. And that brings me to the second count.
Soul shots are not required. Ask any adena farmer - you can play very effectively without them. When I last played this game, at launch, NO ONE went around spamming soulshots. They were strictly reserved for bad pulls and pvp.
Another poster mentioned being forced to de-level. Here's a thought - just level without using more soulshots than you can afford. Then you wouldn't need to de-level.
I'm not naive about this, though. There's no turning back now. Soulshot spam is IN, to stay. But if you really dislike using them so much, then don't use them.
L2 is the only game I have played where you have to buy something, i.e. shots, in order to kill mobs effectively. What makes it worse, aside from the horrible drop rate, is the fact that I will spend more in shots, sometimes, than I get in drops from the mob.
Effectively meaning, I lose money sometimes, just to level my character. I know of no other game where that is the norm.
+1
L2 is the only game I know where you lose money to level a melee character. Nukers can actually make money if they two-shot and get 5k or 6k adena from the mob in solo, in that way melee's are the ones that really suffer from the whole shot concept.
Simple fix, increase the number of soulshots crafted for all grades, and keep the materials the same. Shots all suddenly half the price or less.
Another poster mentioned being forced to de-level. Here's a thought - just level without using more soulshots than you can afford. Then you wouldn't need to de-level.
Yes that would be me. Here's a thought - It doesn't matter wether you use shot or not you will still have to D'lvl over and over to stay in the lvl range for the drops you are hunting. Lower lvl's are not as bad as high lvl's. But just for a small reference I have been hunting in FOD since lvl 65 i'm lvl 72 now. In that time period I have gotten 2 Damascus blades that 2 blades in 7 lvl's. Now is that a managable drop rate? of course not. Yes that is just a small example but it repeats it's self over and over at ever grade lvl. Doesn't matter if you use shots or not you will still have D'lvl to stay in the lvl range to get the drops. The only difference between using shots and not using shots is the speed at which the mob dies. It has no affect what so ever on the drop rate.
Don't take this personal and it's not a jab at you. Im just saying soulshot use has no affect on drop rates nore does it change the amount of xp you get. Except in the fact that you can kill higher lvl mobs at the same pace as lowewr lvl mobs without shots. I have farmed materials before to craft stuff and many times just gave up because it was much easier to just manor basic mats sell them and then buy the full item. The loot system is broken in this game and always will be. As long as it stays the way it is L2 will always be infested with automated parties in the best areas for drops. That is if you can find a reliable source for drop rates to begin with. Yes I know of the most popular and believe me they are not that reliable.
Well not only is ss/bsps is an adena sink, it creates a very different chance in the PvP system
for example
me playing on my tyrant and my friend on her BD, after hunting the the cats for a while, we both level, get skills and come back and buff up,
while we wait for some people who decide to come, we decided to kill the wait by dueling. Now first we used SS.
throw off some furious tyrant skills and win the battle with most of my cp gone in a very quick battle.
Next we fight with NO ss.
At the end i won but i noticed a big difference,
I was almost out of MP, All my CP and 1/3 of my hp was gone.
Your probably wondering what happened?
You know as well that Blade dancers have a bleed skill-sting
well with more time to take effect due to the -2x speed of damage, the bleed took a much heavier toll giving alot of damage done.
So there we see that SS killed the effect of DOTS
Now on my DA, my and a glad are hunting, the glad runs out of ss, im almost out of ss and beast ss, we still had buffs
before we left we dueled, now normall the fight would come out really close with a random winner.
Turns out I win by a longshot. WHY? The glad burnt all her MP + she was stunned a long time.
I had plenty of mp left, and only lost a lil bit of HP and my cp is a lil back in due to the constant stops in damage. + the panther didn't get 1-2 shotted by Blaster or TSS, and with that it was easier to keep the glads attention off it with the new HATE LOCK courtesy of NCSOFT.
Now another example which is the most obvious clue of all
DA Vs SH. NO ss/bsps
SH was humiliated, simply could not cast fast enough or do enough damage. Root and chain stun all day.
Normally a SH would rip through me in moments.
OL vs TH,
I lost, stupid DOTS, mana burn, hp burn
PP killed a SH, IDK what happened in that fight, but it happened.
SEE? SS/BSPS makes a HUGE difference, not only in PvE but most definately in PvP too. Those classes that you say aren't too good In PvP?
Turn off your SS and lets see what your opinion is after that.
Make one like these appear after every 1000th hit and give the players 3 min to input the answer (so they can finish off the mob they are fighting right now before concentrating on the turing test).
If the test is failed three times, block the account for 12 hours. That is not too harsh a punishment if a real player makes a crap and fails the test, but will prevent effective botting.
Maybe this idea is flawed too, but right now it seems like a good shot at the problem to me.
Make one like these appear after every 1000th hit and give the players 3 min to input the answer (so they can finish off the mob they are fighting right now before concentrating on the turing test).
If the test is failed three times, block the account for 12 hours. That is not too harsh a punishment if a real player makes a crap and fails the test, but will prevent effective botting.
Maybe this idea is flawed too, but right now it seems like a good shot at the problem to me.
- Neumond
With experience of websites and captcha boxes, this thing get cracked all the time.
Only way to make it work is to change these alot, atlease once week.
The thing is that there is many types of players that bot, but the one thing they have incommen is the walking man or any other type of that program.
This is the program they need to counter, I am not saying that Adena farmers would go away if these programs would not work but a great big chunk of the cheaters would be gone.
First we have the regular players that cheat, they cheat becuse they whant to get ahead and whant to have chars grinding mats / adena for there gear. Alot of theses people would go away with out this program.
Adena farmers would also decline but wouldent go away as they would just do it manually.
The only way to not hurt the player base in any way is to remove the possibility to use these programs.
If bots on Bartz use shots then they must be easy to train.
I understand that NCSOFT wants people to play the game for a long period of time. They are a business after all, however there becomes a point where it becomes frustrating, aggrovating and annoying to play this game because of the stupid little things. This is when they start to lose players and the ones that stay are the ones that are just the hardcore vets and even some of those are throwing in the towel.
Sucks for Tyrants and Daggers, lol. What about in PvP?
Well we could make it "1 hour in battle state" instead of "every 1000th attack" to determine pop-up. Also NCSoft could suppress the popup when in a purple/PvP state.
As for changing the Turing tests a lot, I think for tens or hundreds of thousands active accounts a month they can pay one person thinking up new Turing test engines once a week?
You guys move in these amazing circles, it's funny. Simple and effective way to deal with bots? Have a couple of ncsoft employees spend 4 hours a day patrolling the servers, in 2 weeks all servers will be bot free.
No need for popups / if you re live sratch your left ear commands / make sure you use a soulshot every 10th hit or you get banned :)
hummm.
prices in teon(most populated and probably most bots) r going down on every item.
maybe u should consider is lack of population for high prices and not bot making prices go up.
is true that bots do make prices go up but is during certain time especially during new itens coming up.but atm only gear ppl dont have is s80 and pretty obvious very hard for bots to farm HB effective.
money sinks exist in game to make ppl use adena ortherwise ppl would have a ton of adena and adena would be worthless making market only trade of itens for other itens
To patrol all areas I have seen bots in so far you would need at least 20-30 hours time, even with instant teleportation cause you have to check all the rooms.
So to do this weekly you would need at least one full-time employee per server, making the cost for that service around 8x 30k$ a year.
To run effective Turing tests you would just need one person working part-time to keep it effective, so just 3% that cost.
Now tell me what NCSoft is more likely to implement?
I like the idea of in-game patrollers, put several in the catas. No where else have I been, essentially, forced to not hunt because of bots. I admit I could kill the bots, or train them, both of which would be rather complicated for me, plus I won't go red on a bot to risk being dropped by some dimwit who thinks I'm a meanie for killing another player. When I see a high level bot trainer (I mean someone killing bots) in a low level cata, I thank them every time.
BTW, I have trained bots only to get dropped by their owners who happened to be a couple dozen levels higher than I was. This is why I won't do it, it's counterproductive to my goal in the game.
Unfortunately I have no ideas to suggest, good, bad, or otherwise, but I certainly hope something can be done about it.
If you increase supply demand will drop. If there is no demand there would be less resource gathering individuals. it's that simple.
As for the automated player issue, a lot of those are people that can't handle the grind, be it the money grind or xp grind.
Cheers and have fun playing Lineage II
Exactly increasing the supply of materials(drop rate) would lower prices. Would also lower the amount of automated players. If I knew I could get all the items I needed within 2 weeks to make an item I would do it. But knowing I have to farm, D'lvl, farm, D'lvl over and over just for 1 part of a recipe is a huge deterent. But it is also a huge motivation for the automated groups. They know regular players don't want to do that and will pay for the items they farm instead of farming them themselves. It's big circle and has titled hard towards the automated side more and more with every chronicle.
The soulshot system ... viewed in the context of the broader crystal system, it is a way of linking the prices in a player-driven economy to the prices NPC's charge. In this way, NCsoft is able to determine with high precision the relative values of things, even though they do not set the ultimate price.
That sounds really interesting, although i am not really sure I understand it. Did you mean that NC arranges the number of crystals, thus the ultimate price of any object? Could you please elaborate a bit?
no ncsoft cant control the number of crystals, they just control the prices of crystals and since every item in game has a crystal value the guy is saying they control relative prices.
Like for example an item that crystalizes into 500 A crystals should be worth half as much as an item that crystalizes into 1000 A crystals etc.
It's an ok theory, it doesnt really apply though in game cause it doesnt take into account item rarity, SAs that make a specific item more desirable than another etc etc. Easy example would be Sword of Damascus, if the system worked it would be worth exactly the same as a Bow of Peril or a Bellion Cestus since they all crystalize into the same number of crystals. In reality though a Dama in game costs twice as much cause it's a much rarer item, harder to craft and more people want a dama than a bellion cestus.
After thinking about it I really wouldn't consider shots a money sink. Money sinks in games are designed to remove the game currency from ciculation in the game ie..teleport fees, seven signs fee and so on. Anything that keeps the Adena in curculation doesn't do anything for the economy except to keep the value of each Adena low. In reality the actual money sinks in this game are very few and not to expensive. Even some of the Adena from an NPC goes back to a castle owner and at the least Aden castle owner. Honestly I think we neede more money sinks that actually remove the Adena from circulation.
every game has some sort of money sink to prevent inflation.
you kill monsters loot them find money/valuables and then by game design you should spend it on something otherwise there is zero value to what you find.
the biggest money sink in WoW is the epic fly mount, in lineage2 its soul/spirit shots.
making shots the biggest money sink in l2 is that good or bad? thats not for me to decide, however here is the problem...
bots, they avoid the money sink, and everything they earn/loot from monsters is not later being reused by them to be able to continue hunting; instead its being sold for real money on ebay or other adena selling sites. People who buy adena from those sites, then come to our servers and spend that huge amounts of adena on equipment and/or other stuff, creating very big inflation.
Over 4 years NCsoft has proved that they can not fight bots. Almost every room in catas today is occuppied by bots. Instead of asking NCsoft to ban bots, how about we think of a way to create a money sink for bots. With the right money sink idea, bots will begin to disappear, and inflation would decrease by alot.
If you have an idea, on how to make bots spend money (since they dont use shots), plz discuss it here. All we need is a well worked idea which would apply to bots only, and would make it unworthy for them to keep on botting.
i'll give you few points to consider(these are simply my ideas/suggestions, and i encourage you to discuss mine as well as bring your own):
--when you not using shots and you are trained should you have a chance to drop item(s)?
--weight limit across your chars determines the time of your xp session before restocking, what could be used on bots?
--make catas/necros port you out automatically for not using shots longer then 5 mins?
Please bring as many ideas as you have, ignore mine if you dont like them, after all i only listed them to get you warmed up.
Actually shots are a problem and not a solution. If shots only used shop buyable ores and were price adjusted to be cost less than what you were making from killing mobs using equipment of that level, they would be a money sink.
However NC being full of idiots, exponentially increase the cost of the shots while the actual adena earnings from killing mobs increase linearly.
Needing crystals also has the tendancy to reduce the number of items available in the market. And if we relate Price level to equal total adena/(the sum of Qi*Pi) where each Qi is the quantity of an item and Pi is the cost of one unit of that item, then when Qi is falling faster than P is falling, Pi must rising. This makes one believe that using shots actually along with overenchanting and 60% crafts make the price level rise, causing inflation.
Easy half fix is to make shots only use ore, no crystals. At the end of the day, we sholdn't have to pay to kill mobs, but when each spell is costing me 800 and the mob only has a 50% chance to drop 2500 adena, there is no way I can hunt and not become poor, which completely sucks.
Easy half fix is to make shots only use ore, no crystals. At the end of the day, we sholdn't have to pay to kill mobs, but when each spell is costing me 800 and the mob only has a 50% chance to drop 2500 adena, there is no way I can hunt and not become poor, which completely sucks.
1/2 the 'cost' of shots comes from the ore the other half from crystals. You could argue that the volume of crystals needed for shots is excessive, as shot making is where the majority of crystals go. But removing them entirely from the system actually doesn't help any. (And most likely would actually hut it.) However the only way to get them is either crystalizing, OE failures or mammon.
For now, B grade and higher crystals are a problem because there is no 'simple' way to get them. Crafting for cheap isn't as easy anymore now that the average player is higher than the mobs that drop 'cheap crafting mats/recs' and the alternate methods of getting them are either too unrealiable or are just overly expensive. (C and D grade are pretty much tied to NPC shops so those prices are more stable at a lower level.)
But yes, shots are too expensive...more because drops are so poor than the shots themselves are too expensive though! If crafters could get key parts and mats on a timely basis, and if making them in larger batches wasn't such a pain the prices would come down somewhat.
The soulshot system ... viewed in the context of the broader crystal system, it is a way of linking the prices in a player-driven economy to the prices NPC's charge. In this way, NCsoft is able to determine with high precision the relative values of things, even though they do not set the ultimate price.
That sounds really interesting, although i am not really sure I understand it. Did you mean that NC arranges the number of crystals, thus the ultimate price of any object? Could you please elaborate a bit?
Sure. Edisson's explanation was a start, but he didn't see the idea through all the way. Yes, on the surface, you have all gear able to convert to crystals, so you have relative values there. But basic crafting mats can also be converted into gear. And so, by extension, they too become part of the relative framework that is all tied together by crystals.
Let's just make a really simple example.
Let's say "Weapon" costs 1,000a at the NPC. And if you crush it it gives you 10 crystals. The minimum value of the crystal becomes 100a, tied to the npc price. If crystals are in high demand, and start selling for a lot more, people will begin buying weapons from the NPC and crushing them, to make money of the crystals. Supply goes up, and the price goes back down again. But it won't go below that baseline cost for too long, because nobody can make any money from them below 100a.
Now let's say you have "Big Weapon", which is craft-only. It requires 20 iron to make, and if you crush it, it gives you 50 crystals. Since crystals are always worth 100a, tied to the NPC price, this Big Weapon, even though craft-only, also gets a value tied to the npc price. Its 50 x 100 = 5,000a.
Since 20 iron goes into making it, the iron, too, get's a value now. It is worth 250a. If folks offered iron for 200a, crafters would buy it, make Big Weapon, and crush it to sell the crystals at a profit. This activity would continue until demand drove the price of Big Weapon up to 5k again.
What if demand for Big Weapon were high, and the price were driven up to 6k? Well, the price of iron would go up too (now they are 300a). And no one would crush it, because crystals derived from Big Weapon would not be profitable to sell. Since items have a permanent lifespan in this game, that means over time supply of Big Weapon will increase. The long term result? The price will fall back down to its "normal" price, eventually.
Notice, too, something that is happening here. The value of basic crafting mats will be determined by their most profitable use. This means, as higher grade weapons appealing to higher level players have been introduced, the value of basic crafting mats has become higher. This is why it was necessary to have a luxury shop for C-grade, when B-grade was the topmost gear. And it is why NCsoft is (belatedly) adding B-grade to NPC's now that the game has advanced to A and S grades. If they didn't do this, gear would become inaccessible for first-time players in those lower level ranges (and many have argued this already happened to B-grade, so you can see the consequence).
A kink in this is the over-enchanting system. But in the longrun, the value of those weapons is still based in part on the value of the unenchanted weapon. Here you have a "risk premium" begin added to the final price, accounting for that 40% chance that each OE step will cause your item to go bust. So this starts to function more like an equity market, where people are assessing their risk tolerance and what sort of return they would expect for undertaking a certain amount of risk.
The crystalization system is the media that allows all of this pricing information to be transmitted in the economy. But in order for it to work, the crystals themselves require value. That is why they are used in crafting recipes, but more importantly, that is why they are used in a consumable that each and every player will always use: shots. If it weren't for shots, the crystal market would dry up in a heartbeat, and then this whole interwoven system would cease to function.
So that's why I say, it is a lot more than just a simple moneysink, like repairs in WoW, for example. It's a much more sophisticated system here.
The soulshot system ... viewed in the context of the broader crystal system, it is a way of linking the prices in a player-driven economy to the prices NPC's charge. In this way, NCsoft is able to determine with high precision the relative values of things, even though they do not set the ultimate price.
That sounds really interesting, although i am not really sure I understand it. Did you mean that NC arranges the number of crystals, thus the ultimate price of any object? Could you please elaborate a bit?
Sure. Edisson's explanation was a start, but he didn't see the idea through all the way. Yes, on the surface, you have all gear able to convert to crystals, so you have relative values there. But basic crafting mats can also be converted into gear. And so, by extension, they too become part of the relative framework that is all tied together by crystals.
Let's just make a really simple example.
Let's say "Weapon" costs 1,000a at the NPC. And if you crush it it gives you 10 crystals. The minimum value of the crystal becomes 100a, tied to the npc price. If crystals are in high demand, and start selling for a lot more, people will begin buying weapons from the NPC and crushing them, to make money of the crystals. Supply goes up, and the price goes back down again. But it won't go below that baseline cost for too long, because nobody can make any money from them below 100a.
Now let's say you have "Big Weapon", which is craft-only. It requires 20 iron to make, and if you crush it, it gives you 50 crystals. Since crystals are always worth 100a, tied to the NPC price, this Big Weapon, even though craft-only, also gets a value tied to the npc price. Its 50 x 100 = 5,000a.
Since 20 iron goes into making it, the iron, too, get's a value now. It is worth 250a. If folks offered iron for 200a, crafters would buy it, make Big Weapon, and crush it to sell the crystals at a profit. This activity would continue until demand drove the price of Big Weapon up to 5k again.
What if demand for Big Weapon were high, and the price were driven up to 6k? Well, the price of iron would go up too (now they are 300a). And no one would crush it, because crystals derived from Big Weapon would not be profitable to sell. Since items have a permanent lifespan in this game, that means over time supply of Big Weapon will increase. The long term result? The price will fall back down to its "normal" price, eventually.
Notice, too, something that is happening here. The value of basic crafting mats will be determined by their most profitable use. This means, as higher grade weapons appealing to higher level players have been introduced, the value of basic crafting mats has become higher. This is why it was necessary to have a luxury shop for C-grade, when B-grade was the topmost gear. And it is why NCsoft is (belatedly) adding B-grade to NPC's now that the game has advanced to A and S grades. If they didn't do this, gear would become inaccessible for first-time players in those lower level ranges (and many have argued this already happened to B-grade, so you can see the consequence).
A kink in this is the over-enchanting system. But in the longrun, the value of those weapons is still based in part on the value of the unenchanted weapon. Here you have a "risk premium" begin added to the final price, accounting for that 40% chance that each OE step will cause your item to go bust. So this starts to function more like an equity market, where people are assessing their risk tolerance and what sort of return they would expect for undertaking a certain amount of risk.
The crystalization system is the media that allows all of this pricing information to be transmitted in the economy. But in order for it to work, the crystals themselves require value. That is why they are used in crafting recipes, but more importantly, that is why they are used in a consumable that each and every player will always use: shots. If it weren't for shots, the crystal market would dry up in a heartbeat, and then this whole interwoven system would cease to function.
So that's why I say, it is a lot more than just a simple moneysink, like repairs in WoW, for example. It's a much more sophisticated system here.
I know all this but was still a very good written post. nice :D
I can't help but feel like the crystal/shot situation in the game is like an alternate universe where people build or buy tables, then feed the tables into chipping machines, then feed the chips into another machine that converts the chips to food. And that's what they do to get their meals, every day.
if you didnt have consumables taking money out of the system everything would be without value ... you d see anything that isnt npc sold cost billion cause people that have been playing for longer just collected more, and new people have to grind to 80 to afford b grade :)
err so i assume asking 20 m for a C Armor set is affordable by someone around lvl 40 -52 ? + The additional merre 16m for a weapon without sa.
Brought tears to my eyes. Actually we have the adena sink and this kind of situation. How we'd end up with so much adena? Must be the army of boats docked at giran harbour... :D
Sorry Orinoco but you are simply playing wrong... I have never lost money on SS and I have played dwarves, and paladins alike for some time... they're about as dangerous to mobs and a scared housecat, and they still manage to bring in a small profit. Try playing in more parties... this is a VERY social game and meeting people and making friends is very easy. Or hunt mobs that are connected to a money-making quest- or craft your own shots... there are a doazon or more ways to minimize loss while hunting, just work a little harder at it and you'll see what I mean.
And to Knight of Darkness - They have already created a solution for that scenario... all DoT skills will see a "significant" damage boost in CT2 Gracia...
And my hat goes off to Platino for his well timed use of common sense.
NCsoft is doing a fine job of combating bots considering they are fighting it on two fronts... they adena farmers, which we can all agree are unwelcome. and the real players who use 3rd party programs.
If they dissallow 3rd party programs than the bots will dissapear, yes, but so will 3/4 of the players. It would be a bad bussiness call from NCsoft to kill their game in such a way... so they, being a clever company decided to wait...watch the bots for their tell-tale signs and see what they could come up with... it took some time but they are now taking action that make it more and more difficult for the bots. Instances (while I personally do NOT like them, they are inavicable for simple programs and hurt bots). Designing more "interactive" dungeons and quests that contain elements programs cannot correct or respond to; more aggro mobs, enhanced creature AI and so on and so forth... mobs using SS accomplishes the same thing on a smaller scale... I am VERY pleased with these developements and look forward to seeing them and how they play out, I wish people would stop railing at NCsoft for their problems. All of you that think you know better or havea solution that NCsoft is not making use of - remeber that NCsoft has countless millions of dollars that they use to hire very intelligent and astute minds to solve problems... and while their solutions may not match up with yours... too bad :cool:
1) Mainstream Games
2) Softcore Games
3) Hardcore Games
1) Mainstream games are games that can be played by anyone, either they have previous video-gaming experience or not. They demand very little time to be spent to "survive" but a bit more to excel among the masses. These games don't have many cheaters because cheats won't provide a big enough advandage. Lineage 2 is NOT that kind of game.
2) Softcore games are the kind of games that demand the player to have a some experience in other video games, even if they were mainstream games. You can still play these games without spending large amounts of time but the amount of time you'll play is not the only thing that determines your state. There are many tricks, many smart things people can do to get an advantage against other players without spending big amounds of time. Still though, most (if not all) people can reach the top through time. These games have a decent amount of cheaters, in the form of people that try to exploit the game tricks in the favor of themselves and the pain of others. Lineage 2 is NOT that kind of game.
3) Hardcore games are the most extreme games that exist. They simply cannot be played by everyone. They need tremendous amounts of time but that is the least of difficulties. They are created for sadomazochists. People that enjoy testing their capabilities of surviving the most difficult conditions. Making less money than you have to spend is one aspect of a hardcore game. Getting practically no usable drops is another aspect of a hardcore game. The player's best friend in such games is the trading system. The most intense the circulation of money and items among the players, the best are the chances for the player to fight his way through the difficulties. These kind of games are loaded with cheaters. These cheaters though, are of a different nature that the other cases. They cheat because they cannot understand they play the wrong game. If they played a mainstream game, or even a softcore game, they wouldn't need to cheat. They are not MADE for the hardcore. THAT'S the kind of game Lineage 2 is.
So, the solution is obvious, but not at all simple. NC needs to understand that a hardcore game is not made to make tremendous amounts of money and if they want a goldmine, they should also make a softcore game. They just need to keep our hardcore game clean.
I have petitioned more that 100 bots since automated playing has been made illegal but I'm not sure if this even helps. Finding out if a character is a bot or isn't is so freakin' easy. Put an executable in System file that starts AFTER l2.exe and scans for the rest of the working applications on the player's PC. Let's call that executable, antibot.exe. antibot.exe shall have a list of all known applications that allow automated gaming and if it scans one running, it sends the player's ID to a Game Master in the form of petition as soon as the player logs into the game. There you have your proof of a botting player and NO excuse to ban them for cheating. The rest of the game can be left AS IS for all the hardcore gamers to enjoy.
err so i assume asking 20 m for a C Armor set is affordable by someone around lvl 40 -52 ? + The additional merre 16m for a weapon without sa.
Yes.
I never had problems with getting myself or my academy equipped (and I only get them a few millions "starting money" in shots and a clan oath armour, and tell them how to make more money). Got my full NM set crafted at level 60, too - I could just craft or buy an A-grade weapon along with it, but I prefer to have some reserve millions to make more money first.
I could have enough money + shots to feed academy by o/e T-shirts.
But now alot of people are going for the upper level shirts. at +4 they have supper bonuses.
However if all you do is stay at the academy 1-40 range, you'll never have a high level toon, and wont get to experience the upper level game content, except for PTS, yet that isn't the same.
However if all you do is stay at the academy 1-40 range, you'll never have a high level toon, and wont get to experience the upper level game content, except for PTS, yet that isn't the same.
I don't quite get what you're talking about here ... :confused:
I have an academy to feed. It consists of quite a lot of genuine new players and re-rollers from other servers. They start with zero, and I help them along and show them how to make money and gather equipment.
What the hell does it have to do with "staying at the academy 1-40 range"? I don't know anyone who does, really.