Great job on giving the wealth accumulated by over a hundred players to one well after those that have given up hope to reclaim those resources have moved on.
This isn't an anti-Flint post. This could be anyone. This is an anti-poor management post. If you make a decision on how the game is to be played, stick with it. Don't change the rules on the fly as convenient to the moment. The original decision may or may not be fair but to inconsistently enforce them makes the game unfair and unenjoyable.
Why Spam couldn't create a nonpartisan toon and transfer leadership to it to maintain the original ruling on the situation is beyond me.
And to say this is the one and only time this will happen is seriously flawed. To establish a precedent only to later rescind it then state this will never happen again sets a bitter tone to the situation. I can appreciate this being an exceptional situation due to the server merge but I believe the solution is under-evaluated in the repercussions and consequences.
I hope Flint has the heart to give back to those that help amass that phenomenal wealth. I hope NCSoft re-evaluates the ideology behind the clan management. To quote a friend, “You can dream in one hand and [censored] in the other and see which one fills first.”
Spam, you've created an imbalance in the game by doing this. Keeping the server running is a poor justification for the path taken. The foreknowledge of the server merge has provided ample time to have provided a far better solution than this.
Alyra, I hope you have the foresight to not remove or lock this thread as submitting individual tickets, overwhelming Spam to respond on the same issue time and time again rather than dealing with this in a public forum where all can receive the benefit of information. What has been done affects the entire server and the server deserves to have its voice heard.
Game management such as this encourages me to find another company to provide my hard earned money and loyalty.
Bottom Line is Spam mess up and made a mistake..... he admitted it ......he's Human just like everyone else. hHe said it won't happen again so stop beating the dead Horse and let it die.
idk i think flint deserves it hes the one who stuck it out, besides like the dude said, u put it in the clan warehouse u left the clan, so u lose claim to w/e is in there, but i do agree on the let it die part its over, go cry somewhere else please and thanks
all items that where in cwh should just be deleted and forgotten about. whether someone earned it or deserves shouldnt have mattered once the clan leader was banned. as far as im concerned, no access to the cwh is as good as not having one.
its a shame things like this get to the boiling point and peoples trust, feelings, etc... get hurt in the process. at most the clan should have been transfered to flint but like i said above all items in that cwh should have been deleted long ago...
Regardless of what happened, a precedent was sent by the powers at be. If this type of activity or punishment would be brought forth by the GM's again, you can bet that any type of legal activity would be greatly enhanced because of the posts made public by the GM's of just how this was made possible. Any decent lawyer would latch on to that and run with it.
In the end a precedent was made by the GM's and they better hope they can deal with any possible consequences that may come from it. My two cents.
Ok - I can see that Spam tried to do his best to keep the clan active, and +1 to him, he admited that he messed up.
For the legal issues - oh please, do any of you read the the agreement when you log in? You are only paying for the right to be on their servers - EVERYTHING belongs to NCSoft - you toon, the equipment, clan, WH, etc.
I still think that when a clan leader is banned for cheating - the clan should be disolved, clan hall put up for auction, clan WH deleted, etc - pick your leader better next time.
I created this thread to provide a means for the player base to express their concern over the situation in a constructive manner.
I suffer no delusions (nor should anyone) that Alyra will lock and/or delete this thread if it digresses into unintelligent screaming. If anyone is concerned with speaking their mind, please do so in a controlled manner with the understanding this thread is the only one being allowed to remain public about something controversal - something unknown if not unusual for this community.
My apologies for sounding like I'm preaching; I'm just tired of being told to submit tickets for issues such as this that affect everyone. It would be nice to hold civilized dialogue in a public manner rather than individual conversations that by nature prevent the sharing of information and at worst generate further confusion.
Just to reapeat myself again - We all left clan cause the GMs told us we better do it. We all were ok with that and we payed for our mistake that we have chosed a clan leader that is a cheater (even if I still do not believe Frankee is one). This aint the problem. Flint and the GMs made us leave the clan, now they took over the clan without its members to know anything. This is not Flints clan, he has been a clan leader and a high lvl officer but the only people that have rights over Genesiz and its cwh are the members themselves. In this clan everyone was a leader and a main person and this is why the clan was the most powerfull for over na year on Hindemith.
Now the real problem comes with HGMspam making a mistake and not willing to repear it even with having the community and the players screaming for that. Let me speak again from these 100-200 ppl from NoQuarter alliance and these 50-100 ppl form Genesiz and from the name of Frankee we preffer items to be deleted, the clan to be deleted instead of them going to Flintster. Or the real owner of the this account in which is Frankee to log in for an hour and deside what to do with the clan and the items in the wh.
oh please maya give me a break, first off when was the first time u actually listened to a GM huh? GM's tell you not to bot yet do i need to mention the people in ur clan? GM's tell ya not to share accounts yet look at most of the server. So dont tell me that the GM's some how forced you out of genesiz, or that flinster forced u... I think the GM's did the right thing after all, flinster and the current members of genesiz stuck it out while you all left...but i will give u this tho, your right the stuff in the clan warehouse does belong to the members of genesiz... hence the name clan warehouse, but wait a minute...last time i checked almost all the people that are crying arnt apart of genesiz hmm since ya left clan i guess that means u get no say in the clan..makes sense to me tho... oh and for the so called 100-200 nq alliance and w/e people from genesiz...almost all of them gone to bartz so at this point i dont think they give a flying [censored] what happens over here, i mean after all would you? this situation is basically over, so how about u stop posting and go back to ur lil braveheart/impervium circle jerk usin ur own tears as lube, please and thank you
FinalJudgment I believe u are one of the 10 ppl left in this clan that preffered to leave all the wars we had and to carebear exp. I believe u also never attended any of the events that raised the clan to lvl 9 (the firt lvl 9 clan on NA) and made the clan so rich and to have so many items. I also believe u were not any of the people that put their own stuff to help Frankee recover the scam and make him return to the game. Please save us your oppinion.
ill save u my opinion if u save me your tears, besides u can call me thejudge for short...finaljudgment was such a long long time ago...but hey like i said a scam wouldnt have taken place if u all didnt account share...but wait nvm Maya listens to the GM's besides as a clan you all [censored] up for makin a guy who breaks the EULA rules and gets himself banned with all the gear that you apperently hold so dear to as leader...next response please
Here are 2 types of petitions to the support team. I ll ask the community here at the new upcomming server to help us deal with that unhonest action taken by Spam and to remind him that this is a big mistake. Let me remind again that this brake the EULA that these GMs have to keep clean:
- For the people from Gustin:
Dear GMs, I hope u look at the Forums and see that this action with giving the leadership of Genesiz clan to Flintster is a big mistake. You ll see the community not acepting this action.
We the players from Gustin server do not like recovering clan Genesiz and we do not want Flintster to own it or to own its warehouse. We preffer the clan and its warehouse to be deleted or the real clan leader Frankee and the account’s real owner to log in game and decide what to do with it. Transfering a death clan to one person and all this items in the WH are against the EULA rules and they will bring great imbalance when the server merge comes.
Please take our petitions under consideration and do not dissapoint us this time. Our alliance suffered enough from mistakes. Do not make us suffer more cause of one person. WE DO NOT WANT FLINTSTER TO OWN GENESIZ CLAN.
- from the People of Hindemith:
Dear GMs, I hope u look at the Forums and see that this action with giving the leadership of Genesiz clan to Flintster is a big mistake. You ll see the community not acepting this action.
We the players from Hindemith server do not like recovering clan Genesiz and we do not want Flintster to own it or to own its warehouse. We preffer the clan and its warehouse to be deleted or the real clan leader Frankee and the account’s real owner to log in game and decide what to do with it. Transfering a death clan to one person and all this items in the WH are against the EULA rules and they will bring great imbalance when the server merge comes.
Please take our petitions under consideration and do not dissapoint us this time. Our alliance suffered enough from mistakes. Do not make us suffer more cause of one person. WE DO NOT WANT FLINTSTER TO OWN GENESIZ CLAN.
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Excuse me for the bad English, if u are able to make the petition looks more understandable and nice change it. I would like to tnx in advance to all the people that will petition this in order to help us. I ll really appreciate your help <3.
mkay then i would like everyone who thinks the gm's did the right thing please type this
"Dear GM, Maya from hindemith is a puppy dog lil cry baby -beep-... dont listen to him/her/it i really dont care what happens...oh and ban more bots please" (this response can be givin to both servers)
There were a lot of accusing about Frankee and that he cheats but no one had a prove. Yes the bann later proved that, but who would know. Everyone whoever have been in clan or ally with him knows that u can believe this person. I still believe him and I often talk to him via vent. He is a nice trustfull person and a great lider, probably the greatest one Hindemith had. He lead us to the firt Valakas raids, to a lot of records for the NA and EU servers (like the 29 heros we had). So why whouldnt we give him the leadership?
Yes he got banned. We lost the clan and we deal with the problem. We changed the clan as the GMs suggest us. Some of us server transfered to Teon or Bartz the others joined BH and Imperivm. Very few like 10 ppl left in Genesiz leaded by Flint to leave the wars and quit our ideology. Even now 2 main members left the clan cause of Flints greedyness (Trogwar and Makosh left yesterday cause of Flint). Now Flint will keep all the stuff for himself.
Are you serious? Did you just celebrate your 12th birthday or something? You should have told us so we could send a card. Jesus kid, thanks for proving Alyra right. It's impossible to maintain a thread like this without it spiraling into childish antics.
This thread was on such a good track, It started off with an articulate and respectable attitude and now has turned petty.
Unfortunatly wether or not we agree to this situation makes no difference. These items now are free in the hands of it's new owner.
Unfortunatly this situation has created a double standard in the legal system that governs this game and has made a mochary of the already lax punishment system of this game.
I am curious now though , what would everyone like to see happen? The GMs come in and say "hmm sorry about that flinster, We will have to delete these items from your inventory." Which would ultimately curropt the DB. I am sure that the items in this game have complex ID and table forms, that the removing of items such as those would ultimatly curropt the DB causing null errors or parse variables making the upcomming server transfer even more difficult in it's unorthadox occurance. [Thats bad for those of you unable to follow along]
I disagree with the action taken for this case but ultimatly it was a race against the clock and spam did what anyone would of done to keep the integrity of system. He placed Flinster in shoes of Frankee and left the decision to distribute (or not distribute) in his hands as heir to the Clan the decision was left to him.
Spam doesn't know our drama and in the grand scheme of things, he probobly doesn't care ( i know i wouldn't). All he knew was this.... sever mergers are coming, major issue with items/adena not redistributing properly, and there is an heir to the clan still left in the clan, Solution? Give the clan to the heir and let him deal with the problem..... and so he has.
I am surprised though that he gave us an explanation of his actions, I respect that great deal because I expected our cries to be dismissed.
Is Genesiz the only clan with a clan hall and a dead leader? Probably not.
What technical problem would it cause? The clan hall price will return to the CWH, the total adena amount will probably be stuck to 2 billions leaving the extra money in outer space, and that's it.
It could happen to any clan who bought a CH for 2 bil and has some adena in the CWH (like for the CH fees). Even if their leader is not banned, they will still have more than the max amount of adena after the merge. Do I make sense here?
Flint also mentioned lawsuits himself on the forums. To me all this looks like a new victory for cheaters.
Thanks Aldridge for starting this thread, I also felt concerned (because I'm still dreaming of playing in a fully legit world) and couldn't believe Spam's answer without a bitter taste in my mouth.
about the issue of deleting the items causing problems.
why would it cause problems? i know gms have in the past placed items whether it were quest related or gear from hacks into players inv. would deleting instead of replacing items cause mayhem?
about the issue of deleting the items causing problems.
why would it cause problems? i know gms have in the past placed items whether it were quest related or gear from hacks into players inv. would deleting instead of replacing items cause mayhem?
you can't just simply "delete" an item, times in the past where you were under the impression an item was deleted was merely the ability for you to see that item or access it were merely taken away but the item is still there and still passing the correct variables. (many may of experienced this when they log on and their weapons or armor are not in their inventory but still have the stats from them)
Spam said it in plain english... if the clan stayed under frankee... they would of had issues with the server merger.
The server merge ultimatly is the cause of this scenario, if you truely think about it, the process that this server merge will be going through will most likely be messy.
if you analyze his post carefully he mentions the GMs were going to give the clan to Flinsters a long time ago anyways but their tool to do so was unavailable. (Remember.. Lineage II is developed in Korea.. not NA so most if not majority of the prime coding is done there), So Spam tries to make his own method of doing so without damaging the database records.
below all the fancy spells and intense monsters lay a complicated network of data that all need to relate and reference each other.[Database Schema]
You are then probobly asking yourself then " Why not do what he did now then?"
The answer is simple, it wasn't justified. NCsoft like most companies have policies and most likely have to go through different departments before certain game altering decisions can be made. Back then (presumably when the account was banned) he could not justify logging on the account and transfering the account to his superiors or collegues.
Server mergers come along, Spam no longer has time to develop his idea to transfer leadership without causing database errors, so he has to act quick and do a plan that will allow us to not to have to wake up and discover we are unable to log on for weeks due to variable conflicts.
You then ask "Why didn't he use the transfer clan feature in game"
Because that feature is a client based feature, which also requires 7 days before the script executes, GMs can't execute that script from the console they have to use a special GM tool that executes a script similar to that one... but theirs wasn't updated due to different database hooks that were probobly implemented during all the new chronicles/thrones.
He said it himself, the fix he did was sloppy , and the clan will probobly be broken but the problem is fixed. Many are looking at it from the point of view that because so many of you asked and they caved in... when really they were doing it for the server transfers and were not moved to action due to the 100,000 of petitions that were sent.
it's no co-incidence that this happens when we are on the precipice of server transfers.
Drekk: good post and nice to hear of some of the actual technical reasons behind that. I work in IT and do deal with large databases and can see where the GMs are coming from on this one.
But I have to admit, if it's true that a single person (Flint) was given the entire contents of that CWH, with no obligation to do anything in particular with it, that's a bad thing. The CLAN should have been transferred over, but the items should have just been removed. And I cannot believe it's that difficult to simply remove an item altogether from the database (unless it's a very weird db!).
Items belonging to a banned account (Frankee) should be gone forever. I'm sorry, that's just the way the rules go. There are other clans with dead/banned leaders with stuff in their WH. Did they get special treatment? No. If the GMs set this precedent once, they will have to do it again when stuff gets 'stuck' in clan warehouses (and yes, it does happen).
To give a single person stuff that was fought for by 100+ other people's hard work is not fair, unless those people consent to it (and it doesn't sound like they have).
I don't know the full story here so I won't pass judgement. But it does sound like an unfair decision in many ways...
well gms can create some toon transfer all items into it and there will be no problem cuz no items will be deleted
its so simple..
It wasn't just the items , the clan itself was a problem, and your solution would require them to log onto Frankee anyways. So why not just give the clan to the heir to clan... a Toon already created.
As far as the GM Team is concerned Flinster is next in line to the clan, and giving it to him would be the fastest, easiest way to fix an already broken situation.
In Gracia2 members with full clan access (which Flint had) will have FULL access to the CWH and it's contents. Maya even posted this on another l2 fansite long ago. I'll say it again FLINT WOULD HAVE HAD ACCESS TO EVERYTHING ANYWAY. Flint was the only member left in clan that had full rights.
The real issue here is why is Maya so bitter over this? Is it the fact that Flintster logs off to Cptjacksparrow to help Cptjacksparrow get hero over Maya? Is it that NM ally from Gustin chose to ally with Flintster over Maya? Maybe it's because since Flint stopped helping Ragnarok they haven't been able to get as many heros, been succesful at sieges, and fail most of their epic raids?
Maybe you should look at your track record with Flint and without Maya, sure there's supporting cast involved, but it sure seems like Flint knows how to manage them better than you.
It is me. I am the biggest attention [censored] in game and in forums. I creat a lot of drama in both places. I am the one that is always right :)
And mighty dwarf has some rights, but lol my hero spot is not the reason for me to be loud. Even my Zaken is not the reason. Its been Flints greedyness and arrogance. When I asked him : "Hey Flint nice to hear that, now would u give us the bresses, the adena, the Baium, the AQ and my Zaken"
He answered: "I am sorry but too many ppl already wanted smth from the WH. Nothing will be given to anyone"
I said: "Flint ... u know this is our ally effort
He said: I am sorry but nothing will be gven out, I hope this wont offend u"(the conversation is a bid changed due to my memory is low :))
Aldridge, you should quite simply know better by now. Nothing ever happens here that doesn't turn into what amounts to a bunch of people sounding like idiots.
My take on the CWH and Clan situation is it should have been turned over then, when it happened. The rules should be changed. The many shouldn't pay for the sins of the few. I've said it before.....however, this is a done deal, done by the staff of the folks that own the game and all the rights to the game. They can do what they want, whether you all think it's right or wrong.
Spam explained himself and I accept his explanation. Quite frankly, he did not even have to do that much. There is a HUGE change coming to this game in 3 days and that makes for extenuating circumstances. Some think it's good, some think it's bad, but in the long run, it doesn't really matter what the opinions are.
@ Drekk:
If NC would follow your logic then each inactive clan with a CWH and a CH would need to be transferred to an active player or it would cause problems with the merge.
Also you said it wasnt justified to transfer the lead back then, but if the tool to change lead doesnt work then logging the banned account wouldve been the only logical solution instead trying to fix the tool for month and making the clanmembers wait and leave.
@MightyDwarf:
Clan privileges will prolly be resetted with the merge.
+1 What is done is done so like others have said stop beating a dead horse and move on. So this drama doesn't happen again and people decide to post it on the forums please don't cuz I don't think you want to have people in game bringing it up when your trying to move on and get over it.
Actually it's more like so this drama doesn't bring trash to the forums police up after your clannys better and your clan leaders and C.Y.O.A. IS a good abbreviation for this it's short for.
@ Drekk:
If NC would follow your logic then each inactive clan with a CWH and a CH would need to be transferred to an active player or it would cause problems with the merge.
Also you said it wasnt justified to transfer the lead back then, but if the tool to change lead doesnt work then logging the banned account wouldve been the only logical solution instead trying to fix the tool for month and making the clanmembers wait and leave.
You are correct Shinnai,
but who is to say this is not an isolated case? This may of also be done to another situation, just that this situation has made the most noise [by a handful of individuals] that it has become a raging flame bag of monkey **** on the forum.
But its also likely that the specific combination of Epic items [valakas, anthras, Zaken] + vast amounts of Adena sitting in the clan wh all at once made the situation a unique database related nightmare. Without knowing the full back story... it would be difficult to answer that.
Also on the side note... the GMs did not give Flint, Frankee's items. All his items , weapons, armor ... are lost forever. What they gave him was Frankee's clan(that is correct, the clan belonged to frankee in the eyes of the system.), and with that all the rights that came along with it, including clan wh privilages.
What everyone seems to be angry about is not the solution in general but the fact that a Rich man, just got a whole lot richer, while the poor (thats most of us) still remain poor. The fact of the matter is...... Its done. Frankee is put back in banned stasis , Flint is now the Donald Trump of Lineage 2, and Maya is rosie, Spam is probobly enjoying his weekend before he has to get to work on Server merges and we are the one tracked NA viewer audience arguing over a situation we really never really had a say in anyways.
Half of this is sounding like its comming from the mouth of im jealous because I cant have what you have sort of deal. Im glad we got our clan back and I can careless what anyone says about the matter.
idk if most of us is poor tho drek, cant count how many peeps i see now a days with arcana maces and +6 gear and all that lol, think theirs like 30 poor people total (me included haha)
drekk dude u seems to have no knowledges about the programming. I have not any too. What I know is when u push NC enough they do their job. I can give good examples with DaraII who got everything back and like 3 accounts banned when he pushed NCsoft.
Spam's explanation was just lame. I hope we Spam-ed enough of him couse of his mistake. I also hope he as a GM is happy that he has so many customers unhappy and borke his own EULA. I also hope he will continue helping more 1 person that a whole alliance. Gj Spam I will put as a GM I am happy with his work at the next survey I recieve from NCsoft.
Half of this is sounding like its comming from the mouth of im jealous because I cant have what you have sort of deal. Im glad we got our clan back and I can careless what anyone says about the matter.
lol says the CLAN HOPPER OF ALL TIME. Dude, last time I logged in, you were in FS. :p
I honestly don't see a problem with Flint getting the clan back. Everyone talks about greed and all that, but the majority of the ally was greedy, you know, the ones that helped get those epics. Barely anyone voiced concerns over who we gave out epics to because everyone was getting their own cut of the profit. For those that don't know, we did a bidding system. People could bid on epic jewelry, and the other drops from raid bosses, then all that money was divided among the raiding group. A lot of our epic jewerly was given out to people who we barely even knew, but had the adena to bid, and very few people saw a problem with this because they were getting adena out of it. People wouldn't even put in the slightest bit of effort to help if they weren't going to get their adena cut, so don't try to act like the ally had any sort of comraderie at all and that our "hard work" finally went to waste. "Our" hard work went to waste SO many times. Giltan's antharas? The whole system basically let the rich get richer, so I think it's laughable that now this seems to be a problem. So, you can hate on Flint all you want, but at least it went to someone who is legit for once. The only weird thing about the whole situation is that they actually gave the clan back, but, like it's already been stated, this was a unique situation and I doubt other clans with banned clan leaders would have that much gear and a cwh to worry about right before server transfers.
Let's get real here, I really doubt this particular situation has ever happened and I HIGHLY doubt it would ever happen again under these circumstances so NCsoft saying that they will never do this again for any other clan makes sense. The problem people have are not with NCsoft's "unfair" judgement, but with who benefited from it. And, I'm sorry but you're just gonna have to deal with it. A lot of that crap in CWH belonged to people who transferred servers and you don't see them complaining, so neither should you.