I'm seriously wondering just what kind of thought goes into pricing these weapons and armors in the game. At first I thought it was supply and demand, but even in a horrible market these prices remain at ridiculously high levels. Here's an example of the kind of things I'm referring to:
I was on Sayha checking out a +7 Bloody Orchid (A-grade dagger) this weekend that a guy had shouted he wanted to sell. The patk was over 220 ( I can't remember exactly how much) but was still less than that of a clean Angel Slayer (S-grade). I asked the guy what he wanted for it and he said "Offer" (which I can't stand), but eventually he quoted a price of 300m.
300m???
I was completely incredulous at this price and here's why. Since the dynamics of this game have shifted, most serious PvP doesn't start until you're over 75. At that point, I would be more inclined to switch to an S-grade weapon for the extra attack points. The price of a clean Angel Slayer on Sayha ranges between 230 - 250m. So if I bought his weapon for 300m, I'm paying an extra 50-70m for a mostly PvE weapon until I hit S-grade. Then I'll probably have to turn around and try to unload that weapon on a bigger idiot in order to buy a cheaper S-grade weapon.
So what was his logic on his pricing??? He said (and I quote):
"Well you can use this weapon now, you have to wait until you're level 76 to use the Angel Slayer".
What kind of a reason was this? To me it's not sensible to spend a ton of money on a weapon unless it saves me the trouble of upgrading. I have a +11 top C grade weapon that I bought for 70 million back in the day. I keep this weapon because it allows me to use the same weapon throught my C and B grades and is only outgunned by Mid-A and Top-A weapons. If I was going to buy an A-grade for a price over S-grade, It should be able to carry me through S-grades without the need for an update until I get to S80 or whatever.
I thought about what this guy had to have put into this weapon:
1 Base Bloody Orchid: 50m
7 Enchant Wep A: 70 to 82m
Total Out of Pocket for him: 130-140m
Why the heck would I want to give him an extra 150-160m just to say it's something I can use now?
During this weekend I also priced a Naga Storm. The guy wanted 500m for it. The Naga Storm is a rare item that's hard to get so this price tag seemed like it was based on rarity moreso than usability. I asked the guy why he was pricing so high and he said that based on the prices from a popular warehouse pricing website, the price he was offering was "A good deal!" So he didn't even make up his own price. He's just getting the price from a website that prices items based on farmers prices, what a shock! Oh, he also threw in there that it had the ability to get the focus SA. So for another 90 or so million I could get focus and then maybe if I invested 30 or so more million I could be safe and get a +3 Naga Storm with Focus for about 620 to 700m depending on the market that day. Or I could just wait and buy a +3 S grade weapon for about the same price with a higher patk and more damage.
Does this make sense to anyone else? Wouldn't it make more sense if prices were set or items were purchased based on the actual utility of the weapon. I'm constantly amazed at why people buy OE'd D-grade that has lower patk than mid C-grade. You won't use it long enough to justify the price.
first of all - craft for Agra item is not 100%
second - enchant +4 and up is not 100%
ok, forget about craft
with current theoretical chance (1/3 failure) you need 3 BO to get 2 +4, from which one possibly go to +5, for easy counting, you may mutliply this by 2, for +6, and next by 2 for +7 (in fact, it's mostly based on luck, you can throw out 10 BO and none will get to +6, or get 2 of 10 to +7)
so in fact, this price is not unreasonable.
anyway, his point about "using" A grade weapon many level before u get to S, is right. how long do you think, you will play, before you get from 61 to 76? one day, two, week, month, half a year?
First off, my calculations are completely correct. The components of his weapon have that exact value. I'm not trying to repay a guy for every failed attempt he made at try to go to +7 on this A-grade weapon when I'm making a purchase. Every OE attempt is all about guts and glory, but I will always assume that the end result was the product of a single attempt. I'm not saying the guy shouldnt' make a profit on his weapon, but it should still be within a reasonable level. I even offered him 210m for the weapon. I figured a 60 to 70m profit is good for any days work. I try to be fair in the game, but some of these guys just have no clue on pricing.
Well... if you don't want to pay for the price then you should OE them urself. But... if you don't want to do it urself coz u know it might fail, then you pay the price :p
The price exists (reasonable or not) when ppl are willing to pay for them.
I have to disagree with you, when you try to make a product and sell it you consider the risks on making that product and the money you will invest to cover those risks. if you are lucky and nothing failed then you get a good profit.
But you want to make a profit even in a worst case scenario, and these Over Enchanted Items are no needed items, they are luxory items for the lucky one that can afford one. They give competitive advantage? Well thats their purpose. But no one will invest 400 mill adena to Over enchant an item just to sell it for 200 mill, that's just foolish.
I'm not trying to repay a guy for every failed attempt he made at try to go to +7 on this A-grade weapon when I'm making a purchase.
Good luck buying one then.
So what you're saying is that this is standard practice. When a person OE's they take the costs of all their failures and then add them to the price of the successful attempt. This in turns becomes the over-exaggerated price that we have in-game. So you don't really lose anything when you attempt to OE, cause you expect to get it all back on your first success. And if your first attempt is successful, then you can charge based on everyone elses failures and make a very sizeable profit because everyone expects that you blew at least 2 or 3 weapons. The dumb ********!
What would really surprise me is how many people will accept this as reasonable.
By the way, telling me not to buy is preaching to the choir. I obviously didn't buy either weapon. Not cause I couldn't afford it mind you, but just because it didn't make sense. If this is the standing theory on OE'ing now, I'll never have another OE'd weapon.
you pay for the glow, if u cant afford it buy a +3.
imo take 300mil. buy a bloody orchid, buy weapon enchants and see if you come out with a+7 bloody orchid, because chances are youll end up losing money
I have to disagree with you, when you try to make a product and sell it you consider the risks on making that product and the money you will invest to cover those risks. if you are lucky and nothing failed then you get a good profit.
But you want to make a profit even in a worst case scenario, and these Over Enchanted Items are no needed items, they are luxory items for the lucky one that can afford one. They give competitive advantage? Well thats their purpose. But no one will invest 400 mill adena to Over enchant an item just to sell it for 200 mill, that's just foolish.
Okay, that still makes little sense. Give me the scenario where you would spend 400m on over-enchanting anything below A-grade. Let's not forget that S-grade crafts aren't 100% either and they hurt when they fail. Still, I can find S-grade crafts for less than these lower patk A-grade crafts.
I try to be fair in the game, but some of these guys just have no clue on pricing.
Although I agree with you that people just quote prices from a certain website (a fact I'm more and more convinced has a negative impact on the economy but that's another story), that does not mean they have no clue.
The above posters explained about OE risk. I can buy a diamond in a RL store for maybe $100. If I throw that same diamond at the bottom of the ocean, it is worth millions to retrieve (assuming someone would really wanted to do it).
Another bonus of the +++ weapon is that you level faster. Imagine the difference it makes for a nuker to 2-hit mobs instead of 3-hit (yes, it's significant). With a +++ you can also go to higher, supposedly better mobs earlier. So you can (in theory) get better drops etc.
The naga dagger may not be that much more powerful than the others, but it takes a lot of effort to craft it, because dino parties are not exactly low level.
All these factors (unnamed site, chance, greed, nice blue glow, levels needed to make it, dps of the +++ item, etc etc) translate to some adena value. Some people are willing to pay for it, others consider it useless.
OE is an addiction. They perhaps might be trying their luck (just like gambling :o) and just want to click the button, if they fail they fail. But if they made it, here comes money from ones that are willing to pay for them :)
Wamwam, actually seller calculate not they own success/failures on overenchanting, but a total average. Which is 66% success after +3.
From seller perspective they are not gone "donate" to you ultra enchanted weapon only for base weapon price+enchants price. It would look ugly if I would ask to sell me +8 dracbow for price of clean dracbow and 8 ews. Nobody will accept this.
And in lineage it is free market you are not insisted to buy or sell if you don't want.
You can see this difference when compare Damascus (high demand item) recipies in market. 60% recipe cost much lower than 100% recipe.
When a person OE's they take the costs of all their failures and then add them to the price of the successful attempt.
Yes, that's exactly the reasoning behind "OE for profit" ventures. Why you are surprised?
The price of the computer you use to play L2 includes all the influence from research & development, accidents, supplier delays or even going bust, various logistics errors, misconfigured production lines, design errors, worker strikes, taxation changes, more taxation changes, world economic disasters, tsunamis, wars and revolutions, China-Taiwan relations, the relation of dollar/euro, etc etc.
The companies (and players) are there to make money, not give us charity.
That reminds me on my A grade weapon (Infernal Master converted in Kamael weapon Divine Pain)
I bought it misspriced for 15kk back then, OE'd it to +8 in 1 go , leveled with it to 76, sold it for a price of 270kk, which seemed in comparison to all other prices on the market reasonable and bought my S grade weapon from that money.
If you think you are lucky do it like I did, if you think you'll fail buy an already enchanted weapon. I once talked to a guy that always OE's stuff and he said he adds like 20-30kk for every successful enchant over+3 (in A grade).. I dunno, it sounds almost reasonable to add a certain amount of adena for every successful enchant over +3 because the chance to break is 1/2 (I don't believe that 1/3 crap because it's just not true).
but to be honest, you don't really need an enchanted weapon to go to 76, I leveled my sub to 72 now with a common weapon and that works as well.. but if you want to level faster and with less spending on shots/pots then it's your choice if you pay a high amount for an OE'd weapon or if you try to OE it yourself :)
So what you're saying is that this is standard practice. When a person OE's they take the costs of all their failures and then add them to the price of the successful attempt.
Nope. The price is where supply meets demand. If someone is in hurry to sell an item, it will cost less. If someone is in hurry to buy, it will cost more.
However, there are some fundamentals, around which all these market prices variate. There is an average cost of production (which, for 60% crafts, for example, is 1.6(6) times higher than the bill of material cost of one craft attempt; it's more complicated with enchants where you get crystals as well), and there is a risk factor due to a finite amount of attempts. There is also a time to collect the mats and to do the crafts, and money involved in the process, which could be spent on other businesses instead.
OF course you can try to buy an item for a price that requires someone with 100% luck to craft it for you. Well, you can even try to buy an item for less. Hoverer, on average, there is something who values this item more than you do, and who will buy it for higher price, better representing the fundamentals... unless those items are so abundant in supply as, say, crystals from failed o/eing attempts.
This in turns becomes the over-exaggerated price that we have in-game. So you don't really lose anything when you attempt to OE, cause you expect to get it all back on your first success.
Of course it's not how it works. For example, you could never succeed due to the finite amount of the resources you could invest into the business. And even if your resources are infinite, but the demand is finite, there is a chance you will run into the production costs not paying for the items' market price.
I'm not trying to repay a guy for every failed attempt he made at try to go to +7 on this A-grade weapon when I'm making a purchase.
Good luck buying one then.
So what you're saying is that this is standard practice. When a person OE's they take the costs of all their failures and then add them to the price of the successful attempt. This in turns becomes the over-exaggerated price that we have in-game. So you don't really lose anything when you attempt to OE, cause you expect to get it all back on your first success. And if your first attempt is successful, then you can charge based on everyone elses failures and make a very sizeable profit because everyone expects that you blew at least 2 or 3 weapons. The dumb ********!
What would really surprise me is how many people will accept this as reasonable.
By the way, telling me not to buy is preaching to the choir. I obviously didn't buy either weapon. Not cause I couldn't afford it mind you, but just because it didn't make sense. If this is the standing theory on OE'ing now, I'll never have another OE'd weapon.
Well, not exactly, but you do have to keep in mind that if it takes more work and more resources to make one of these things and the supplier can't recover his initial investment then they won't bother to make it.
Companies do this all the time. They put a certain amount into research and development and part of the pricing goes to repay that initial investment.
The price your paying is the premium for an OE weapon.
I made mine my self over a long period of time and Lucky it never Blew up (http://home.comcast.net/~ashleymivida/Woot.jpg). Now it has more P attack then +3 AS and cost a lot less to use (A vs S shots). I be dam if I sell it thou for the Cost of a SS + 10 EWA and SA.
You want it your going pay for it. However I can craft my Own A shot so I doubt I ever up grade to S. just saves me 2 much money in the long run and My next sub can use it also. ;)
I have to agree that the prices of the C-B grade items are bit crazy but there is not only the risk involved with these items.
In the case of the weapons I present to you the Blacksmith of Mammon, for the fee of removing the SA (if you put one) you will have with your OE'd Weapon an all purpose tool and the last weapon you'll purchase for that lvl range for all your toons, subclasses, etc.
And I think that's the reason behind those prices for C or B items. D Grades are just Greedy :P
A lot of wrong things about economy from wamwamsomethingorother
Seriously. If you don't understand what you're talking about. don't post..
You say you have some +11 top C weapon. I would like to trade with you. your +11 for my +0 of the same type of weapon and 11 EWC scrolls. This is a completely even trade according to your logic (seriously. it is, read your own post again)
The price your paying is the premium for an OE weapon.
I made mine my self over a long period of time and Lucky it never Blew up (http://home.comcast.net/~ashleymivida/Woot.jpg). Now it has more P attack then +3 AS and cost a lot less to use (A vs S shots). I be dam if I sell it thou for the Cost of a SS + 10 EWA and SA.
You want it your going pay for it. However I can craft my Own A shot so I doubt I ever up grade to S. just saves me 2 much money in the long run and My next sub can use it also. ;)
I do believe in the right to make a profit. I'm all for it. Like I said in the case with the +7 Bloody Orchid, i did offer the guy 210m for the thing. I thought that would be a significant profit over the actual cost of making it. I believe in rewarding the risk, especially if I don't have to fret over doing it. But my main concern is that we've gotten into a habit of exchanging coin with these overpriced items without any concern for their actual utility. Unless a OE'd item of any grade has more to offer than the next grade or grades higher, there is no way that OE'd item should cost more than the next grade of weapon. This is especially true in situations where the next grade is better in any way. The fact that this is commonly done makes absolutely no sense to me. That's what I'm more concerned about. There's no way a clean AS with more patk should be priced less than a +7 BO with less patk just because of the glow.
1. You can't use an Angel Slayer properly at lvl 61.
2. You forgot to add the price of the SA, because using a clean weapon is dumb.
3. It is totally illogical to tell the guy to only make you pay the price of the weapon + the price of the enchant scrolls + a small margin. It's more than illogical, it's ******ed. Buy the weapon clean and the enchant scrolls and do it yourself if it's so worth the price you're telling. You'll win the margin!
4. The price of the risk is not the price of the theorical number of weapons you need to reach a level of enchant, otherwise it would be even worse, so enjoy the logical prices of the market.
I aslo thought that a OE had way to high price until I,
Blew countless Duals trying to get a SA and blew countless armors trying to get +6, And dont get me started on 60% crafts that are OE.. arf.
Either one pay for OE or stay safe and have +3.
Edit: or ofc trie to do it your self....
1. You can't use an Angel Slayer properly at lvl 61.
DUHHH!!!!
2. You forgot to add the price of the SA, because using a clean weapon is dumb.
I'm going to assume you meant I forgot to add the price of the SA to the Angel Slayer. I was comparing apples to apples because the other weapon didn't have an SA either otherwise it would have been 400m I'm sure.
3. It is totally illogical to tell the guy to only make you pay the price of the weapon + the price of the enchant scrolls + a small margin. It's more than illogical, it's ******ed. Buy the weapon clean and the enchant scrolls and do it yourself if it's so worth the price you're telling. You'll win the margin!
60 to 70 million of profit is a small margin? I offered 210m for this weapon. Is the normal expectation of profit over 120m on a +7 A grade?
4. The price of the risk is not the price of the theorical number of weapons you need to reach a level of enchant, otherwise it would be even worse, so enjoy the logical prices of the market.
So here it's like you're telling me I was getting a good deal and a fair price.
Okay, maybe my problem is that I'm posing the question to the wrong people. Of all those that have responded, how many have sold OE'd equipment for what I would consider an exhuberant price based on the risk? I only ask this because a person that has performed this action would have to back it up with the whole risk, profit, market statements I've been reading thus far. If the only reason you're defending the practice is because you practice it, I have to assume that you're a little biased on the issue.
How the hell do you make 700M by lv 70+?
Or 400M by lv 61?
Well the first problem is that you are assuming you are completely alone. A lot of good clans/alliances help their members to farm for mats, recipes or even with the crafting. Heck, many of my mats for my first SOM came as a gift from my clan.
But you also need to know that many people have dwarf characters to help with making money. You can do some manoring but you can also do crafting or spoiling for mats and selling that.
Lastly, you can learn a bit about the market.
For example, I purchased 3 dark crystal robes, a bunch of A armor enchants for somethign like 32 million or so each total (robe + 6 enchants each). It's been a while but you can just do the math based upon what your server sells them for as I don't have the exact number for cost. I then enchanted two of the robes to +6 and blew one up.
So I spent 90+ million adena and sold the first robe for 110 million and the second for 115 million.
So there you go, about 130+ million profit.
Now, keep in mind that I don't do this a lot because I actually have no patience with enchanting and the risks but I sometimes did it and could net a nice profit.
I also would find things like Draconic bows and buy them. You know, things that many players would want to over enchant. Two to one they will blow them and really need another one.
I recall seeing two of them on sale and only two in Giran. So I bought them both and sold them for 5 million more for each.
That's 10 million right there. Sure, that is not going to zip you up to 700 million but you get the point.
The economy is a huge part of this game (which I've always hated) so it has to be dealt with.
First off, my calculations are completely correct. The components of his weapon have that exact value. I'm not trying to repay a guy for every failed attempt he made at try to go to +7 on this A-grade weapon when I'm making a purchase. Every OE attempt is all about guts and glory, but I will always assume that the end result was the product of a single attempt. I'm not saying the guy shouldnt' make a profit on his weapon, but it should still be within a reasonable level. I even offered him 210m for the weapon. I figured a 60 to 70m profit is good for any days work. I try to be fair in the game, but some of these guys just have no clue on pricing.
If you intend on getting an OE'd weapon, for nothing more than Price of Weapon and Price of Scrolls, Good luck.
I have to assume that you're a little biased on the issue.
Maybe you're the one that's biased on the issue? :o
Business is business. You're like asking a retailer to sell you goods at manufacturing price.
WRONG! That's not what I'm asking for. Once again, I'm all for profit, I'm just trying to figure out where all these exhuberant price structures were born. Did just one guy overprice and then everyone else followed suit? If this is the case, what's the chances on everyone making a change to more civilized prices with a more modest profit margin. Cause I'm sure that unlike one guy raising prices and everyone taking their queue from him, if one guy lowered his prices someone would just buy it and then jack up the price to what we consider "normal" levels. So what would it take? Or is this game too far gone by now?
BTW. Retailers set prices based on costs, competition, and what they expect as a profit in order to live. Those base prices are then adjusted based on supply and demand. This is a game and as such has no such liabilities. The only cost in this game is time, the only competition never prices so far below you that you're unable to sell (because they're trying to maximize their profit), and there is no supply and demand on anything in this game that can be obtained solo. The only real thing pushing the economy in this game is trying to hang with the top crowd and cheaters in pvp. The unfortunate part is that this group are usually the ones settinig the prices and selling you the weapons, items, and or upgrades.
Frankly... Your making a thread complaining about someones price in a 'Player Driven' market. If you don't like the price, don't pay it, but the guy is doing nothing wrong by asking for 300mil for the item, whether it be Overpriced or not, thats his choice.
People make their prices up based off of what they feel the weapon is worth, and obivously if he isn't going to get what he is asking he will have to lower his price, but when you offer him 2/3 of what he was looking for, how do you expect him to want to jump on that deal, and frankly how do you have the right to criticize him for it?
I have sold many items for far more than they are worth, and items for less than I felt they were worth, thats the beauty of a 'Player Driven' market.
Personally I would much rather pay somebody else a premium for their time/patience/luck on overenchanting than doing it myself. Everything I try to overenchant just blows up, usually going for +4. I have a nice +12 Bloody Orchid and +10 Infernal Master that are worth every adena I paid. If I relied on my own luck for these, I would just have a bunch of crystals.
The only exhuberant thing in this thread is your whining cause somebody doesnt sell something you want at the price you want.
Going by your logic a homu costs about 5m off the shop, ewc is like 800k so if I offer some guy 30m for a +16 homu he's an idiot if he doesnt accept cause clearly that homu cost 17m to make and he's making an insane profit of almost 80%.
Retailers set prices based on costs, competition, and what they expect as a profit in order to live.
Not entirely 100% true. For example from my case study - TAG watches, they were selling their watches at ~$200/300 which was enough for their profit; but they didn't have a lot of market. So they repositioned their company by changing their imagine but same stuff (watch) and sold them for ~$2000.
Wala~ they sold more watches at $2k than $200/300 price range.
Too bad that there are minimum/no alternative "brands" (armor/ weapon choices) that you can select in L2. If they can sell the same product at $2k and people LOVES it, why are you asking them to sell them at $200?
LOL thread
@op go make me a +16 drac bow and I ll buy it at the cost of a drac bow + 16ews scrolls
If you intend on getting an OE'd weapon, for nothing more than Price of Weapon and Price of Scrolls, Good luck.
For the next to the last time (and I'm saying "next-to-the-last-time" just because it's inevitable that another genius with a complete grasp of the concept of my post will chime in about how silly it is to expect people to sell an OE'd weapon for the price of crafting plus the price of the the enchants only):
I AM NOT SAYING THAT A PERSON SHOULD SELL THEIR ITEMS FOR THE PRICE OF THE WEAPON AND SCROLLS!!!!!
I clearly said that I believe a person should make a profit on their work, but 150mil in profit for one item should be regarded as overkill by anyone's standards.
I'll be sure to copy and paste this response the next time one of my clever forum buddies takes the time to regale me with their sarcastic well-wishes for me to find something that I was never looking for in the first place.
Thank you for making me laugh today. I started this morning ready to put my head through a brick wall, but this post reminds me that not everything should be taken so seriously.
Speaking of not taking things seriously...
The OE market is and always has been designed to cater to those with the ability to pay. It's driven by those with latent esteem issues; it satiates their desire to project power and elitism. As such, logic doesn't apply to any pricing structure, although many feel they need to apply some logic to a purchase decision. Don't bother.
What I'm hearing in this post is basically a complaint. Complaints are the most ineffective means of haggling known to man or beast. Don't look to others to set what you feel are "reasonable" prices for any item in the L2 marketplace. The market works, for better or worse, because everyone has the freedom to operate in their own best interests.
My suggestion to you would simply be to enchant it yourself. That's what I tell everyone: given a 67% chance of weapon enchant success the odds are in your favor. If you have enough adena to pay 2X, 3X, or more the actual cost of something, then you should try your hand and live with the results.
I clearly said that I believe a person should make a profit on their work, but 150mil in profit for one item should be regarded as overkill by anyone's standards.
What I couldn't believe was how full of dumb this thread was. And then the op has kept us up to date on his philosophies. So I've spent the afternoon calling my parents and past professors to thank them for what they've done for me.
i remember way back in old old days when +++homu was very expensive and very good weapon.
i got a +9 homu and 90m adena for free trading two clean homu.
it was long, involved a lot of "buy for low, sell +1m" and took about 14m of cash from my own pocket to begin the beguine.
price shmice. if you cant affrod it, trade with someone who has a few more adenas. give him/her something they want. i.e. if you cant buy outright a +10 S weapon, trade your existing clean B weapon until you can. if youvve got an AOBA and 30m, set up a buy shop for 25m for another aoba, then turn around and sell them both for 34 each.
The only exhuberant thing in this thread is your whining cause somebody doesnt sell something you want at the price you want.
Going by your logic a homu costs about 5m off the shop, ewc is like 800k so if I offer some guy 30m for a +16 homu he's an idiot if he doesnt accept cause clearly that homu cost 17m to make and he's making an insane profit of almost 80%.
WRONG! I was merely checking the market in case I wanted to buy a new weapon. If he sold it to me for my price, I would have been happy, If I would have brought it for his price he would have been happy. The ability to leave it where it is was always the option and that's what I did. I already have a decent weapon that's more than capable of taking me through to my S-grade. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to make it seem like I'm mad that I didn't get a +7 BO.
As far as your Homunkulus example, I never said profit was bad. A +16 Homunkulus sword should have the matk somwhere around 159 (higher than a clean SoM). The purchase of this C-grade weapon should take you through B-grade and A-grade without really having to upgrade. When the person sets the price for this, I would expect them to set the price with this utility in mind. So if you had to pay for a B-grade weapon and then an A-grade weapon, I would probably include a percentage of those purchases in the price. I would have to consider that the person buying the weapon will have to purchase an S-grade weapon when the time came so I would make sure that it wasn't priced higher than a clean S-grade. If an SA was included on the Homunkulus I would include that as well. All in all, my price would probably fall in the 170-220m range based on current B and A grade prices + my profit for a unique +16 weapon.
So:
1 Homunkulus from store: 5m
16 EWC at 800k: 13m (rounding up)
usability amount of bypassed B grade purchase: 45m
usability amount of bypassed A grade purchase: 55m
profit for unique +16 wep: 60-70m
Total Price: 178-188m (possibly a smidge higher if I could coax it, but this would be within my lowest price range)
But based on some of your posts, this price would be ******ed for the general market place and if you saw it you would jump on it and then then set up a sell shop for 300m right away.
So not whining, my friend. Just making an observation for discussion purposes.
I'd gladly buy a +16 [censored] for 178-188M, and sell it for much more because I realise how difficult +16 is to get, how much in demand they are and because no one could realistically reproduce it for that price.
This is simple logic /
Ok clearly you don't want to understand why a weapon that you can use at a lower level is an advantage and don't want to include it in the price. You don't want to understand that you have to put a SA on your weapon and that a lower grade weapon requires a cheaper soul crystal, so you don't understand again the advantage of the lower grade on the price. And you don't want to understand that with a lower grade you'll use cheaper SS/BSPS, so it's another advantage.
What can we do for you today? What would make you happy?
Oh yeah sure the only thing that counts on a weapon is the PAtk/MAtk, you're so right. How didn't we see it so clearly before! You enlighten us, thank you.
As far as your Homunkulus example, I never said profit was bad. A +16 Homunkulus sword should have the matk somwhere around 159 (higher than a clean SoM). The purchase of this C-grade weapon should take you through B-grade and A-grade without really having to upgrade. When the person sets the price for this, I would expect them to set the price with this utility in mind. So if you had to pay for a B-grade weapon and then an A-grade weapon, I would probably include a percentage of those purchases in the price. I would have to consider that the person buying the weapon will have to purchase an S-grade weapon when the time came so I would make sure that it wasn't priced higher than a clean S-grade. If an SA was included on the Homunkulus I would include that as well. All in all, my price would probably fall in the 170-220m range based on current B and A grade prices + my profit for a unique +16 weapon.
So:
1 Homunkulus from store: 5m
16 EWC at 800k: 13m (rounding up)
usability amount of bypassed B grade purchase: 45m
usability amount of bypassed A grade purchase: 55m
profit for unique +16 wep: 60-70m
Total Price: 178-188m (possibly a smidge higher if I could coax it, but this would be within my lowest price range)
But based on some of your posts, this price would be ******ed for the general market place and if you saw it you would jump on it and then then set up a sell shop for 300m right away.
So not whining, my friend. Just making an observation for discussion purposes.
Actually a +16 Homu has 188 matk :)
The drop data site-we-may-not-mention-here has a tool to calculate the "worth" of an overenchanted item, i.e. what it costs to create an OE item given the OE chance and the cost of the item/enchants. Given the low chance to actually GET a +16 weapon, its worth is, based on how many homu you probably WILL fail to get one, 1.9 billion adena. Just go there and see for yourself, it's simple maths. For 180m you could expect to get a +10/+11 homu (which btw has around 160 matk). If somebody actually lucks out and gets a +16 homu on his first try it does not change the fact that it is an extremely rare item and so there is no reason to expect him to sell the weapon just for what he invested plus a small profit.
When you buy a highly OE'd weapon, you do not only pay for base item/enchant cost and profit, you also pay for the rarity of actually getting an item to that OE value. It should not be surprising that something which is hard to get costs more than something which is comparatively easy to get (e.g. +16 homu compared to +3 arcana mace).
1stly:people will price the weapon/armor based on what they know they can get from the community, sure they'll price into it the luck factor but that doesn't nearly make up the whole of the price. If the community is based on those that pay for their adena guess what. You guessed it - the price of those weapons will follow suit and have done so for years.
2ndly:After so much time has gone by where the market has adapted to the adena buyers what you get is people buying and selling at the outrageous prices. (It may be that there are people out there that have played the game for 3 or 4 years and have built up the billions needed for these high priced items but that means that we all have to put that kinda time into a game to get the same results. Problem is we didn't have the luxury of starting when the game first came out so we can't have the benefits of a fresh, and "new" market. We get the farmer driven one!!!!
In short, nobody that is starting out is gonna be able to build a boss jewled, S clad character unless they
a)put in the crazy amount of time needed to build FROM SCRATCH, such wealth.
b)Well.. You know..
Let's not forget that this game was designed to be played, not for weeks, not for months, but for YEARS and YEARS.
BTW. Retailers set prices based on costs, competition, and what they expect as a profit in order to live. Those base prices are then adjusted based on supply and demand. This is a game and as such has no such liabilities. The only cost in this game is time, the only competition never prices so far below you that you're unable to sell (because they're trying to maximize their profit), and there is no supply and demand on anything in this game that can be obtained solo. The only real thing pushing the economy in this game is trying to hang with the top crowd and cheaters in pvp. The unfortunate part is that this group are usually the ones settinig the prices and selling you the weapons, items, and or upgrades.
Well, you sort of answered your question there. Especially since you acknowledge that demand is a part of the equation.
Do you remember the "Swatch" watch? I certainly don't believe they cost as much to make as they were being charged for. And besides there are many other costs that factor into a product such as development, marketing, salaries, business costs.
When a store gets a product they are charged a certain amount for that product by the supplier. What has been done in the past is either the supplier suggest a retail price or the store does an automatic (well, here in the states at least) 50% mark up plus shipping costs.
As far as this game goes, if I over enchant 5 items and blow 4 of them but still charge for one item's mats then I'm not going to stay in business. So I make the items, decide on a price to cover the effort to get at least one item (that's my research and development) and put it out there. If people buy it then that is a good price. If they dont' then I need to lower the price.
That is part of what makes this game brilliant. The actual economy. It's also what I hate because I'd rather be dealing with other things.
For instance, as I stated elsewhere, I over enchanted 3 DC robes and blew one of them. Seeing that +6 armor and robes were going for about 125 million I started with that price. But after a while I realize no one was buying. So I lowered my price. Then I saw that someone else had a +6 robe and he kept beating my price. So kept lowering until about 105 million. I think he went to 100 million but I felt comfortable at 105 and sold it.
Point being is that I can charge whatever I want but it doesn't mean that players are going to buy it for my initial price. And that's good. It's the way a market works.
Part of what drives prices up are the rarity of mats, time of course the fact tht prices were initially set high, etc.
In the first Prima guide a Demon Staff (does anyone remember the Demon Staff?) went for about 7.5 million. That was the price stated in the guide for that staff. The actually price once players started making them was about 14 million because reality and the market shifted them higher.
Now, NC could have made the Demon Staff 100,000 adena. So you might then see them go for 200,000. But with mats, having to farm the recipe, etc and the fact that there weren't tons of these things, the price rose.
The only x factor in this equation is adena sales. If if I wanted to purchase something and were inclined to do so, I could just go, buy adena and then get the item. This is what many people do.
But, if one couldn't just buy themselves rich in in-game money then they would have to wait to save up. Meanwhile the sellers would realize that they priced themselves too high and they would start lowering their prices until somone decided that the item was worth it.
But in truth, if you sell your shots in a town and you are the only one there, I'm going to buy all your shots and maybe one or two other people's shots and then raise the price an adena per shot and make a profit for just being in the right place at the right time and cornering the market.
Thanks Varaya for correcting me on the Matk of the +16 Homu. That would make that weapon stronger than any base S-grade weapon, but still inferior to some S80 ones. A good weapon to have and I can see it selling for around 500m or so.
This has been an interesting exercise in the resistance to change and how it's possible to set a standard in any system and how people will adapt to it. The funny part is when those that adapt to the system become comfortable with it, they refuse to change how it works. They in essence become a part of that system. These people wind up mirroring the more questionable traits, in most cases, just to survive.
I think Styx is right.
The worst elements of this game have changed the structure so much that there are some people that are proud for overcharging and price gouging and they attribute their part in perpetuating this nonsense as business savvy. In their eyes, anyone that questions the way things are done is unintelligent, uninformed, unskilled, and unwanted. Regardless to how many posts I made about allowing profit for each item, I was amazed to see how many people thought that 100m adena worth of profit is a "low sum". Are we all so rich in this game now?
I'm not looking to talk down to anyone. This is just a discussion and I'm only wondering why things are accepted as they are. I'm not here to beat a dead horse, but I can't help but wonder how did we allow the horse to die in the first place. The economy is the one thing in this game that players truly had all the control over. Is the current situation truly the best we could come up with?
This has been an interesting exercise in the resistance to change and how it's possible to set a standard in any system and how people will adapt to it. The funny part is when those that adapt to the system become comfortable with it, they refuse to change how it works. They in essence become a part of that system. These people wind up mirroring the more questionable traits, in most cases, just to survive.
No it's not.
It's a case study for free market economy in online worlds, part of which was set up by the original devs.
Just because you can't see that doesn't mean that we are resistant to change and are somehow unenlightened.
It's a free market economy with some flaws to it because of the ability to introduce great amounts of wealth in game based upon external factors.
But that still doesn't mean that I can't charge whatever I want and if the market bears it then fine and if the market doesn't then I lower my prices.
Why does a ferrari cost three times as much as a vette even though they are as fast ?
You cant define prices for vanity/rare items using utalitarian logic of the it has similar stats to item b so it should be priced in a similar manner kind .Over enchanted items are rare and command a premium, how much of a premium is determined by the market. If that guy cant sell his BO for 300m he ll be forced to try 280 - 250 -230 etc but my guess is he ll sell it fine, it's not crazy overpriced.
You are making the grave mistake of looking at everything BUT the ONLY thing that influences a price.
If you put blood sweat and tears into something it may be worth more to you. It doesn't matter when it gets to market. As a matter of fact, in some instances items are worth LESS than it costs to make them. The +16 Homunk is a classic example of this. It probably isn't worth as much as it cost by chance.
An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you feel somebody is overcharging, let it sit on the market until you feel the price is fair. If somebody buys it beforehand, then it is obviously worth that. The fact remains, a seller always wants to get the most he can for an item...if he didn't you would be ripping him off, not the other way around.
didn't bother to read the whole thread but just my 2c on "that website" which tells ppl what items are worth
few weeks ago i wanted to buy a pole so i done what i usually do and spent a few weeks looking for good deals and getting an idea of an average price
i seen a total of 5 poles for 200 mil each over 2 weeks and "that website" put the value at 280 mil
+16Homu for 188? you REALLY think that is a fair price?
I really can not understand how you can possibly come to that number, and think it's a good profit for the seller
Whether or not he broke any swords at all. Even if he went 0-16 on a single sword he knows that anyone trying to replicate it would most likely go through a few 100 swords and scrolls getting a single +16. And thus he can set a price accordingly.
I'll play along with your real world example just for fun. If you have a product that is very risky to make and comes out of the machines/molds/whatever faulty half the time, then even though the unfaulty items only cost X to make, the price he spends per sellable item is 2X, which will be what he bases his price on. I would love to see you argue that point. Please start your reply with a big capital "WRONG" it makes me laugh every time.
didn't bother to read the whole thread but just my 2c on "that website" which tells ppl what items are worth
few weeks ago i wanted to buy a pole so i done what i usually do and spent a few weeks looking for good deals and getting an idea of an average price
i seen a total of 5 poles for 200 mil each over 2 weeks and "that website" put the value at 280 mil
kinda epicfail imo
The website doesn't pull the prices from some magic database.
The website might now have "seen" those ones.
I'm seriously wondering just what kind of thought goes into pricing these weapons and armors in the game. At first I thought it was supply and demand, but even in a horrible market these prices remain at ridiculously high levels. Here's an example of the kind of things I'm referring to:
I was on Sayha checking out a +7 Bloody Orchid (A-grade dagger) this weekend that a guy had shouted he wanted to sell. The patk was over 220 ( I can't remember exactly how much) but was still less than that of a clean Angel Slayer (S-grade). I asked the guy what he wanted for it and he said "Offer" (which I can't stand), but eventually he quoted a price of 300m.
300m???
I was completely incredulous at this price and here's why. Since the dynamics of this game have shifted, most serious PvP doesn't start until you're over 75. At that point, I would be more inclined to switch to an S-grade weapon for the extra attack points. The price of a clean Angel Slayer on Sayha ranges between 230 - 250m. So if I bought his weapon for 300m, I'm paying an extra 50-70m for a mostly PvE weapon until I hit S-grade. Then I'll probably have to turn around and try to unload that weapon on a bigger idiot in order to buy a cheaper S-grade weapon.
So what was his logic on his pricing??? He said (and I quote):
"Well you can use this weapon now, you have to wait until you're level 76 to use the Angel Slayer".
What kind of a reason was this? To me it's not sensible to spend a ton of money on a weapon unless it saves me the trouble of upgrading. I have a +11 top C grade weapon that I bought for 70 million back in the day. I keep this weapon because it allows me to use the same weapon throught my C and B grades and is only outgunned by Mid-A and Top-A weapons. If I was going to buy an A-grade for a price over S-grade, It should be able to carry me through S-grades without the need for an update until I get to S80 or whatever.
I thought about what this guy had to have put into this weapon:
1 Base Bloody Orchid: 50m
7 Enchant Wep A: 70 to 82m
Total Out of Pocket for him: 130-140m
Why the heck would I want to give him an extra 150-160m just to say it's something I can use now?
During this weekend I also priced a Naga Storm. The guy wanted 500m for it. The Naga Storm is a rare item that's hard to get so this price tag seemed like it was based on rarity moreso than usability. I asked the guy why he was pricing so high and he said that based on the prices from a popular warehouse pricing website, the price he was offering was "A good deal!" So he didn't even make up his own price. He's just getting the price from a website that prices items based on farmers prices, what a shock! Oh, he also threw in there that it had the ability to get the focus SA. So for another 90 or so million I could get focus and then maybe if I invested 30 or so more million I could be safe and get a +3 Naga Storm with Focus for about 620 to 700m depending on the market that day. Or I could just wait and buy a +3 S grade weapon for about the same price with a higher patk and more damage.
Does this make sense to anyone else? Wouldn't it make more sense if prices were set or items were purchased based on the actual utility of the weapon. I'm constantly amazed at why people buy OE'd D-grade that has lower patk than mid C-grade. You won't use it long enough to justify the price.
What do you guys think?
I payed for MS (Meteros SHower +7) a year ago 700mil. Now, My MS is +10 and I'm selling it 2,5bil. (gor an offer yesterday). Sooooo...it's a pretty good thing to have while you are not 76, but 61, and even at lvl 80 I'm exping with IT. So.... does it sound like a good explanation to you?
Mine 2 cents ....
Ok it will consist from 2 parts.
1.Math
I like math ;). Ok, lets imagine one rich guy starts overenchanting bussiness. His bussiness rules are as follows:
- total bussiness margin is 10% (what in L2 is very low)
- enchant item Homunculus sword, shop price: 3.965.160 (just check in Teon server Giran weapon shop)
- he will buy weapon enchants for 750k
- all swords should be enchanted to +6
Ok, because he looking to bussiness seriously he will try to enchant 99 swords.
Investment:
- swords: 392.550.840 -> ~393mil
- enchants. This is more interesting. Some will blow on +4, some one +5 and some on +6. And possibility to blow is 33%:
- we need 4ewc for all weapons: 4 * 99 -> 396ewc (to make +4)
- we need 1 ewc for 2/3 left weapons: 1 * 66 -> 66ewc (to make +5)
- we need 1 ewc for 2/3 left weapons: 1 * 44 -> 44 ewc (to make +6)
- so total ewc (it is average) should be: 396+66+44=506.
- ewc total average price: 506*750.000 -> 379.500.000 -> ~380mil
So, we can calculate expected investment: swords (393mil) + EWC (380mil) -> total 773mil.
Result of enchantment is 99swords * 2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 =~ 30 swords with +6 enchantment.
Do you still remember, that person doing bussiness of this, and he wants 10% (ONLY 10%) margin.
So, he must to sell 30 swords for a total price 773 * 1.10 = ~850mil.
So a price of on sell sword should at least 28.34mil.
So in compare with start prices: sword (~4mil), and 6ewc (4.5mil), total 8.5mil, final price looks insane. But it is correct price with LOW bussiness margin...
2. math number 2 ...
Did I mention I like math? :)
Lets say you are pve player, no pvp. Which wepon is better:
1. SOM+acu+3. M.atack = 161
2. Valhala+acu+8 m.atack = 161
For PVP it may be better SOM, because his pvp bonus, but for PVE it is better Valhala, because:
1. BSPS same amount but prices differs a lot. So grinding expences will drop a lot. In other words Valhala save yours expences.
2. You can use valhala without penalties from 52lvl and SOM only from 61lvl. And you can use them both efectivelly till S grade.
Actually using such valhalla on early B grade will be big boost because of weapon magic power.
Thank you for attention and sorry if I make some calc mistakes ;)
BR,
DuKardai
Edit:
P.S. I didn't took in account broken swords crystalls, this should change final price a little.
DuKardai
The website doesn't pull the prices from some magic database.
The website might now have "seen" those ones.
they were there off and on for 2 weeks
along with those were a few others selling for 240 so any way they came up with that number is still a massive failure
Why don't you go learn how that database operates and why it's against ToS to contribute to it? Then maybe, with a more firm understanding of its operation, you might be able to refrain from making ignorant comments on its operation.
Once you do learn about it, you'll realize that it can be abused if few enough people are contributing to the database. We can take this to pm if you're too lazy to do the research.
You are ignorant, now willfully, and still making dumb comments to demonstrate this fact to the class. If you're concerned with the accuracy of that database, why don't you go ahead and contribute information to it? Nope, nope, you're right. The website pulls all its values from the magic hat and they are either right or wrong. Or wrong by FORTY PERCENT IN THIS CASE!
It's gonna be magic too when all the values are "reset" for this week after the maintenance? Yea, can't imagine at all how this database functions.
You are making the grave mistake of looking at everything BUT the ONLY thing that influences a price.
If you put blood sweat and tears into something it may be worth more to you. It doesn't matter when it gets to market. As a matter of fact, in some instances items are worth LESS than it costs to make them. The +16 Homunk is a classic example of this. It probably isn't worth as much as it cost by chance.
An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you feel somebody is overcharging, let it sit on the market until you feel the price is fair. If somebody buys it beforehand, then it is obviously worth that.
Not necessarily, it just means that he was willing to pay that much for it. If money comes so easily for that individual then why not buy it? You still not taking into consideration that the mass majority of people running around with such wealth have bought it.Which makes it impossible for those that gather their cash legitimately to buy such a weapon.
The bottom line is this. If you want to play L2 competitively and legitimately then you've got to play the game how it was designed to be played.
1) L2 is designed to be played for years. You need to be willing to comply with this and take your time pushing through the level's and gathering wealth in small amounts. (note* you need to make good decision's in buying/selling with that small wealth because a legit player can't afford to be stupid with his money).
2) You need to find a really nice, legit clan. That means you'll be searching for a while, especially in finding the latter quality. Try to find a clan that is willing to work closely with you to reach your goals from gaining level's to gathering materials/wealth to buy new equipment. Forget about +6 to +16. this kind of wealth takes years to build for a legit player. You need to start small and work your way up.
3)Keep your costs always as low as they can be. Try grinding with common equipment at first and stay away from using pots and other items to speed your way through your grind. The common items have been priced by NC and have been weighed appropriately. These items are now up to A grade so your in luck up until then.
4) People will argue, spit and whine or even come up with elaborate mathematics in order to try to explain the market or why 2 billion dollars isn't really that outrageous. but those are the ones you'd most likely find talking to naked toons in mrt or newb towns.(SAVE A FEW HONEST PLAYERS.)
+16Homu for 188? you REALLY think that is a fair price?
It has nothing to do with what is fair.
There are a lot of real world examples of people paying far more than an item is worth to create it and ship it.
It has to do with what the market will take.
I can charge 500 million for a +16 d grade weapon if I want to. But if no one buys it and I really want to sell it then I will lower the price and keep lowering it until someone purchases it.
Again, it cost me about 32 or so million for a +6 DC robe. But I know that people will pay 100+ million.
Had I sold it for 64 million someone would have purchased it and sold it for 100+ million. Had I seen a +6 DC robe for 64 million I would have done the same because I know it's worth to the customer.
+16Homu for 188? you REALLY think that is a fair price?
It has nothing to do with what is fair.
You're absolutely right. It's not about being fair. But that seems to be what he is trying to say. That it should be, and that he should be able to buy his weapons for these ridiculously low prices. I bet he wouldn't want to sell his +11 C weapon for the 50ish mil his own little formula would give him.
You're absolutely right. It's not about being fair. But that seems to be what he is trying to say. That it should be, and that he should be able to buy his weapons for these ridiculously low prices. I bet he wouldn't want to sell his +11 C weapon for the 50ish mil his own little formula would give him.
I don't see your point?? It's ok for him to sell his +11C weapon for 50ish mil provided that the market prices are standard and allows weapons and armor to be bought with adena that hasn't been bought.
My question to you is: Do you believe that the prices of these weapons and armor would be same if adena couldn't be bought???
If adena couldn't be bought then:
A)People wouldn't HAVE that kind of money to spend on the inflated prices.
B)People wouldn't have the money to be so risky with their OE enchants. Therefore there wouldn't be +6 -> +16 weapons being made in the first place.
C)People wouldn't have the money to play the market in order to make the billions that they now have.
My question to you is: Do you believe that the prices of these weapons and armor would be same if adena couldn't be bought???
Yes, it would. This game is 4+ years old and there would be massive amounts of adena in the game by now anyway. The adena sinks haven't really kept pace.
I'm not saying that the cheaters haven't skewed the economy even more, just that pricing has many factors, not all of which make sense. That market is what it is.
well... for OP... there is no logic behind pricing structures, that's for sure, you are BRUTALLY right... I'd agree on all the posters that commented after you IF we where playing 2 or 3 chronicles before, where enchant scrolls were harder to get. But now that scrolls are practically a matter of luck, the weapons take the exact same elements to craft and the chance of OE is also the exact same... wth prices had to go up? On the contrary, they must have fallen a little bit. So to the OP, no one knows the answer to the pricing, except for the ones that actually controls them: botters and cheaters. They come up with a price they [censored] want and that's it. Everyone else depends on watching other's pricing, and that's no market.
Ofc, there's the factor that ppl is idiot and buy things at any price they are being sold, and those are the cheaters who ebay as well, so let them do it if they want to. Like I said in other post, if you want a fair trade, don't use the usual known bot-shops, try to make it face to face with a fair price and buy and sell items to other fair players.
Hello,
I have been reading this thread, and must say...
Thanks DuKardai for presenting a logical, mathematical case.
The chance for achieving any particular enchantment level for a weapon (above +3) is...
(2/3)^(n-3)
To achieve a +7, you have just under 20% chance of success.
AKA... on average, you will need 5 weapons to hit the +7 mark. and expect to lose 4 in the process.
True, some people do get lucky and will lose fewer than 4 weapons in hitting the +7. Some people will lose alot more than 4 weapons in the process.
What I like to do is the following, when looking at player shops...
1.) Determine the odds of achieving the weapon's enchant level I am interested in.
2.) Determine what the AVERAGE cost is of trying to OE the weapon myself (taking into account the base cost of the weapon, the enchant scrolls, and chance of failure)
3.) Estimate the AVERAGE number of crystals I will get back from OE failure
4.) Determine value of the crystals.
TOTAL AVERAGE EXPENSE OE'ING = (AVERAGE COST TO OE) - (AVERAGE VALUE OF CRYSTALS FROM FAILURES)
If I had to estimate, I would say that I tend to get back about 1/4 the costs back in crystals due to failures. So, let's say that in reality, on average... actual average expense = 3/4 average OE cost.
Now, let's use WamWamWuzzle's original post info....
He wants a +7 BO.
He listed the BO as being 50m, and EWA scrolls for about 10m.
Statistically, one would need almost 527m adena worth of BOs and EWA scrolls to achieve a single BO hitting +7.
With crystals recouped, let's say the final expense is about 395m.
It is possible to only spend 120m to make a +7 BO, but you would have to be very lucky and have 0 failures along the way.
So, on average, a person will need to pay 395m to achieve a +7 BO. So, I would say that 395m is a shopper's roof price. As a shopper, you want a bargain. So, you start hunting for items that fall below this 395m mark.
So then, what I look at is the perfect price... the 0 failure cost of 120m for a +7. I use this number to find the midpoint between my roof price (395m) and my perfect price (120m). In this case, midpoint is 257.5m.
So, I think about an OE'd item's price as a price band...
120m...GREAT DEAL...257.5m...BETTER THAN AVERAGE...395m
I think people shop for OE'd weapons BECAUSE they don't want to take the risks involved in OE'ing themselves. I know I fall into this category. So, I try to find weapons that fall under the GREAT DEAL category whenever I can, but I do consider the BETTER THAN AVERAGE category as well, when I shop.
In the case of WamWamWuzzle's opening post, he said the seller of the +7 BO wanted 300m. I don't think it is a bad price compared to statistical average, but as a buyer, be sure to price compare, consider other daggers (such as a Kris, Soul Separator, etc), or perhaps find a +6 instead... if a +7 is out of your price range.
Again, it cost me about 32 or so million for a +6 DC robe. But I know that people will pay 100+ million.
I broke like 10 of them b4 I got one to +6 T.T
I got 2 out of 3 tries. But that's L2 luck for you.
My question to you is: Do you believe that the prices of these weapons and armor would be same if adena couldn't be bought???
Yes, it would. This game is 4+ years old and there would be massive amounts of adena in the game by now anyway. The adena sinks haven't really kept pace.
I'm not saying that the cheaters haven't skewed the economy even more, just that pricing has many factors, not all of which make sense. That market is what it is.
Exactly. And what everyone also needs to realize is that if people are buying for more they are also selling for more.
Go to a country and look at the price for say ... a hamburger. Now go to another country and look at the same hamburger. Chances are that one might cost about 5.95 USD and another might cost 10.95 USD.
One might say that the 10.95 hamburger is overpriced but is it compared to the salaries in the area?
If I go to Alabama I would make $17,000 "less' than I do in Boston.
But the cost of living is also a lot less there.
So sure, prices for top A could be 500 million (or whatever it is now) but they could also be 20 million. Sound good? Well maybe but if players were only relying upon adena drops and selling their items comparatively less then 20 million could be a huge amount of money.
If I go to Alabama I would make $17,000 "less' than I do in Boston.
I often wish that I could apply my SF Bay Area/Silicon Valley salary to a cost of living index in GA, AL, TX, etc. Not everyone, just me. :)
lol. Yeah, tell me about it.
when I was at GenCon last year I was speaking to some guys who were saying that they could rent out several bedroom apartment for around 400 to 500 or so dollars.
Here in boston that would be 1,800.00 or more and more like the early 2,000.00 area.
If I go to Alabama I would make $17,000 "less' than I do in Boston.
I often wish that I could apply my SF Bay Area/Silicon Valley salary to a cost of living index in GA, AL, TX, etc. Not everyone, just me. :)
lol. Yeah, tell me about it.
when I was at GenCon last year I was speaking to some guys who were saying that they could rent out several bedroom apartment for around 400 to 500 or so dollars.
Here in boston that would be 1,800.00 or more and more like the early 2,000.00 area.
Not to 'jack this thread, but...
Here you're lucky to get a small studio for $900- $1K a month. Anything less than that and you're probably dodging bullets and/or wearing kevlar when you leave home each day.
If I go to Alabama I would make $17,000 "less' than I do in Boston.
I often wish that I could apply my SF Bay Area/Silicon Valley salary to a cost of living index in GA, AL, TX, etc. Not everyone, just me. :)
lol. Yeah, tell me about it.
when I was at GenCon last year I was speaking to some guys who were saying that they could rent out several bedroom apartment for around 400 to 500 or so dollars.
Here in boston that would be 1,800.00 or more and more like the early 2,000.00 area.
Not to 'jack this thread, but...
Here you're lucky to get a small studio for $900- $1K a month. Anything less than that and you're probably dodging bullets and/or wearing kevlar when you leave home each day.
Actually it's not really taking over the thread but acting as a real world example of how pricing works for the same item (in this case housing) depending on where you are.
The reason L2 prices are so high is that everything started out high because the dev's made it that way.
In Prelude you rarely used teleports becasue they were so expensive. And I remember saving for a Journeyman's staff and I had to take into account whether or not I was losing too much money by using an soe after I did my 3 dark elf village quests. Dare I use the soe so I can do the quests faster or was it worth it to run?
Look at the starter village prices for top ng and then take into account that you might get a few thousand for a quest. That was quite a lot of questing for top ng!
You are making the grave mistake of looking at everything BUT the ONLY thing that influences a price.
If you put blood sweat and tears into something it may be worth more to you. It doesn't matter when it gets to market. As a matter of fact, in some instances items are worth LESS than it costs to make them. The +16 Homunk is a classic example of this. It probably isn't worth as much as it cost by chance.
An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you feel somebody is overcharging, let it sit on the market until you feel the price is fair. If somebody buys it beforehand, then it is obviously worth that.
Not necessarily, it just means that he was willing to pay that much for it. If money comes so easily for that individual then why not buy it? You still not taking into consideration that the mass majority of people running around with such wealth have bought it.Which makes it impossible for those that gather their cash legitimately to buy such a weapon.
Affordability to YOU is irrelevant. If it sells at that price, that is it's value. Welcome to market value accounting. If you don't like it, call the FASB in Norwalk.
Adena, regardless of the source, is a part of the economy. It won't change any time soon. Even if it did, the only value that would change would be the price of weapon enchants, in this case. Even if they were free, it doesn't reduce the price more than half.
Affordability to YOU is irrelevant. If it sells at that price, that is it's value.
Affordability, to me, is completely relevant. This is why we're having this discussion. Because a cheater will buy the item at its inflated price does not mean that that is the value of that item.
Welcome to market value accounting. If you don't like it, call the FASB in Norwalk.
No thanks. I'd rather not discuss about the L2 market problems with FASB. Something tells me they won't take kindly to my call.
Adena, regardless of the source, is a part of the economy. It won't change any time soon.
Does a man that robes a bank and then buys a house with that money own that house? Prehaps UNTIL he gets caught. Can he then use the argument that he bought it, at least, with REAL currency even though he stole the money? Obviously not. That is typically what is happening with people buying Adena. They are really stealing it illegally and buying items with that stolen virtual money. If you want to test that idea. Please send NCSoft a copy of your transactions between you and whichever adena selling company you happen to be dealing with and see if you really own your weapon's/armor/items or even your character.
Even if it did, the only value that would change would be the price of weapon enchants, in this case. Even if they were free, it doesn't reduce the price more than half.
I'm not even going to waste my time with that comment. My comments prior are well sufficient enough to rebut this...
So fair price for an item is what a lowbie deems as fair and not what an 82/80/80 with 6b exping his third sub deems as fair?
Seriously the arguments you people put forward are kinda funny. Almost as funny as the assumption that anyone who's higher/has more adena must be cheating/buying adena.
I paid 600m for my +16 Homu and I thought it was cheap considering I was oneshotting all the way to my 70s with it. So your fair value formula is hillarious to me but hey if it pleases you stick with it. I m sure you ll find lots of +16 C weps for sale at under 200m
Does a man that robes a bank and then buys a house with that money own that house? Prehaps UNTIL he gets caught. Can he then use the argument that he bought it, at least, with REAL currency even though he stole the money? Obviously not. That is typically what is happening with people buying Adena. They are really stealing it illegally and buying items with that stolen virtual money.
If you sell the house, do you ask the buyer if his money is stolen? No. It's not your job to detect if his money is or is not legit. It's the law's job (in this case NC's job).
So, in the end, unless the law does something about the buyer's money, the value of the house is what you, as the seller, set it to be and the house is legally his if he indeed buys it.
In any case, this whole thread is based on the OP's perception about markets, manufacturing, statistics, pricing, etc. I think it has been clearly demonstrated that his ideas are not correct and we can safely move on.
Anyways, you didn't rebut anything. The point is that the maximum price obtained, no matter who is buying, is the correct price. Adena source is irrelevant to current prices.
Now, I think we are talking about two different things styx. I entirely agree that farmers inflate prices. Supply and Demand also applies to currency. The ratio of adena out there to live players influences prices and causes what you refer to as "careless price increases." This is actually not the case. An adena buyer will not pay "anything" for an item. He merely values his time to a certain level. That means different things to different players. For that reason, the market will trend to the average value of adena bought by players on the server. Personally, I feel this is a relatively low level. I know I've seen 3 full A weapon drops in L2 (though one was from Anthras). I think there is plenty of money if you level your character legit and pvp along the way. Younger players suffer from the time value of older players. Those with more play time (Open Beta?) value their time more. It may be worth 1 million not to wait another week. That's something you have to compete with. I think it has more influence than you think. The same goes for players whom spend a lot of time simply crafting/trading for profit. It again, inflates the value of a player's time.
The places you see drastic price inflation are normally when items first come out at top grade. The first few "superweapons" on a server go for a lot of money due to their uniqueness. People with the capacity to buy adena certainly inflate their value. The same goes for enchanted weapons. +6/+7 items tend to be sold for far more than they are actually worth IMO. That said, prices settle as the super adena buyers saturate, and I think there are fewer than you believe, maybe 50 per server.
That said, steady market prices for old items are not as dramatically influenced by adena purchase. Adena "super buyers" that wouldn't care about price at all and happily overspend by 20% are already far beyond that level.
Does a man that robes a bank and then buys a house with that money own that house? Prehaps UNTIL he gets caught. Can he then use the argument that he bought it, at least, with REAL currency even though he stole the money? Obviously not. That is typically what is happening with people buying Adena. They are really stealing it illegally and buying items with that stolen virtual money. If you want to test that idea. Please send NCSoft a copy of your transactions between you and whichever adena selling company you happen to be dealing with and see if you really own your weapon's/armor/items or even your character.
I think you are not right. There 2 things:
1. they are not stealing adenas from legit players. At least I didn't heard that anybody complain about this. Regardless of all user action, bot actions, or adena sails/purchase for real money ADENA don't dissapear or appear in a lineage world. It just changes owner. Even buying over priced items doesn't produce more adena in lineage world.
2. Farming bot trains makes inflation, because they constantly producing adena/materials/aa with very low price (or even for free), meaning that bot party during farming uses no shots/potions and etc. Because of that in market appears more adenas than would be gathered by legit players. More adena, same goods -> prices increases.
None of that shite would have happened if you had made him an offer instead of asking for his offer then, like a child, getting repulsed by the silly response you got.
Suck it up... enter the bargaining phase... counter offer... do something other than just cry and then gossip in the forums.
You asked for his price and you got it... don't like it then give him a price. I would have done the same thing to your ******ed self. There are a very very very few people who have stuff like that because they spend a lot of time creating it and should be compensated... the others just ebay the stuff.
None of that shite would have happened if you had made him an offer instead of asking for his offer then, like a child, getting repulsed by the silly response you got.
Suck it up... enter the bargaining phase... counter offer... do something other than just cry and then gossip in the forums.
You asked for his price and you got it... don't like it then give him a price. I would have done the same thing to your ******ed self. There are a very very very few people who have stuff like that because they spend a lot of time creating it and should be compensated... the others just ebay the stuff.
So... wtf are you bisching about?
The problem with the "Offer?" thing is that people know what they want for an item, and if your offer is not near his offer, there is no business trying to Bargain.
I'm not going to buy a +8 Homu for 90M these days when I brought one a while back for 45M and could geta +10 for 90M.
When someone says they "WTS xxx item", they know what they want. Requesting that I get into a bargaining spree is useless. Asking for an offer is an attempt to get more than an item is worth from ambitious buyers who don't know the market and are willing to spend Adena that they haven't earned ASAP for that dream item, Lol.
If you can sit around Giran shouting you WTS xxx item for 3 hours, you are more than able to put it in a buy shop for a set price. People who want to pay that price will get it, people who don't will go elsewhere and keep looking...
Usually when someone tells me to make an offer I tell them "Thanks and good luck". If they reply back wondering why I tell them that I don't make offers - ever. One person wanted to sell a +0 SoM with Acumen. I PM'd him for price, he told me to make and offer and said my offer was too low. He wanted to sell it for 600M Adena. I told him thanks, but no thanks. I brought the Mace for 330, the SA Crystal for 135 and Saved over 50M putting it together that way. That was one of the few times I actually gave an offer, because I had been selling stuff and looking for 6 days and there were none on the market. In the end it paid off, and I saved some Adena on the purchase.
People will only sell to you at a price that is at or above what they want, never below.
The one time I wanted a Tallum Robe Set for my SE and someone wanted to sell one, I told him I don't do offers. He turned around and told me he wants 20M for it. That's when those sets were going for 60M+. My first offer would have been in the neighborhood of 45M+ to try to get it for under value, by not making an offer I saved half of what I would have offered for it... He must have been excessively desperate for something else. I turned around and traded it for a NM robe set and sold the NM robe set for 85M for a quick 65M profit (just kept SE in BW Robe set cause I had outleveled it by a couple more levels and it needed the MP, couldn't sell the BW Robe Set :( ).
Making offers to sellers is bad. Never buy from a buy shop. Only from a real person and make them give you a price. If it's too high, don't bend, don't buy; move on and keep looking. Either they will lower their price to sell since they have someone actually interested in the item, or they will lower their price after having it up for sale and not selling it for a while.
If you pay what they want, they will keep jacking the prices up to see how much they can gouge out of you for other items.
you didn't rebut anything. The point is that the maximum price obtained, no matter who is buying, is the correct price. Adena source is irrelevant to current prices.
Your position doesn't take into consideration that the adena bought with real money would not exist in the game for people to buy inflated items with. I see people that have been playing the game for 2 months buying outrageous equipment for whatever price its sold for - who cares right? Also, Your talking about the people that I've already discussed as having played the game for 2 or 3 years and building their wealth. That's fine. I'm not talking about those individuals. All I'm saying is that people would not price their stuff so high if there weren't so many people buying with money that they've bought.
You say Adena source is irrelevant? Only because NCSoft can't track what other's actions are out of game. Buying Adena is against the law. The regulatory laws of the contract that everyone clicked on prior to playing. The simple verdict is that by doing such things you should not be allowed to play any further. So ya, from a law standpoint, it's relevant. From a seller's standpoint - not so much.
An adena buyer will not pay "anything" for an item. He merely values his time to a certain level. That means different things to different players. For that reason, the market will trend to the average value of adena bought by players on the server.
I see what you saying here. Adena Farmers are acting like people's own personal credit cards. Not to many people can buy a house outright but they can buy it through a credit line. Otherwise they have to "grind/work" for years to attain such wealth that they can then buy that house.
I tend to agree with you to a point but here's the thing: When people buy adena and gain their wealth overnight. They gain their weapons/armor and lets not kid ourselves here, their lvl's too. You get a huge imbalance in the game. There is massive evidence of this when we see so many people running around at S grade and a few struggling legit players grinding for years to get there. People are always pointing out that this game STARTS to get fun around 76. This is because so many have abused the system and rocketed their way to the front lines so quickly leaving the legit players to struggle.
Younger players suffer from the time value of older players. Those with more play time (Open Beta?) value their time more. It may be worth 1 million not to wait another week. That's something you have to compete with. I think it has more influence than you think.
I'm not certain I understand what your saying here: Older players value their time more so its ok for them to buy Adena to save a week of grind? I think your right about this influence. Point in fact, it's gotten to the point where people will openly discuss actions like this thinking its fine. Kind of like the 50's where sex on TV wouldn't be tolerated for a second. Now you see it on a daily basis.
The same goes for players whom spend a lot of time simply crafting/trading for profit. It again, inflates the value of a player's time.
This would be because they are trading within a market that's been abused for 3 years.
People with the capacity to buy adena certainly inflate their value. The same goes for enchanted weapons. +6/+7 items tend to be sold for far more than they are actually worth IMO. That said, prices settle as the super adena buyers saturate, and I think there are fewer than you believe, maybe 50 per server.
/Agrees. But I'm not sure about your last sentence..
People also aren't taking into consideration the fact that the Adena Prices in the Real World dictate also the prices in game.
When Adena Prices go up, prices in game go down because people are buying less.
When Adena Prices go down, prices in game go up because people are buying more.
When Adena prices stabalize, so do the prices in game.
It's because there are cheaters in game who sell items in game for RL case, and because of that the prices in game are really RL prices and not Adena Prices.
If someone sells a DC Robe Set for 50 bucks it will be a cheap prices when he adena prices are really high, and extremely expensive when the adena prices are very low, because how much adena 50 bucks contain changes. That is just a rough example.
Compare the price of Adena on Luna to say, Bartz and then compare the prices of the in-game items also. They are very related - especially the Lineage II age of "Cash Out".
People also aren't taking into consideration the fact that the Adena Prices in the Real World dictate also the prices in game.
It's the other way around, actually. Adena IRL prices are dictated by ingame adena amounts.
It's a supply and demand thing. Farmers 24/7 Adena farmers are the biggest factor. When they have big surplus (more supply than demand), inflation occurs. They need to sell the Adena, so they lower the prices so that more people can buy more adena from them. As a result, there is more Adena available to players at a lower cost, so the price of in-game items goes up to compensate.
The in-game economy works similar to the RL economy, and farmers farming adena is like a government constantly printing more and/or more money or lowering the interest rate making money too easy to borrow (in the case of the Federal Reserve after 9/11).
You are disregarding the fact that the in-game adena amounts are largely dictated by farmers in this game (who is like the government in this case). Unlike players, they are always printing ALOT of money.
What happens when farmers get mass banned and stop producing Adena?
Pretty easy to understand, really.
When farmers make their adena stock piles easily accessible to the general population, inflation goes sky high. Farmers are "regulating" the market in Lineage II.
I tend to agree but it's not the farmers... but their clients the ones that regulate the market. If no one buys your product then you either lower it's prices, give it free with other stuff or just leave and do something else.
They can make all the adena they want but if the players where more considerate and don't buy it (a sweet dream i know) then they will be going to the next game. But i think we are beating a dead horse here.
Let's hope the button works...
And almost completely wrong in the assumptions at the same time.
Most adena sold on adena selling sites is not "freshly printed" by a bot train just a couple of days ago. It comes from the market, from its sellshops and buyshops. It is adena already circulating ingame. And the more inflated the ingame prices are, the lesser part the direct adena drops take in the farmers' budgets.
For example, a typical cata train gets about 1 AA per 1 adena in its drops. If 1 AA costs 1 adena on the market, it means that about half of the farmer's money comes from AA sales, and about another half comes from direct adena drops. If 1 AA costs 4 adena, then more than 80% of the farmer's income comes from adena acquired on the market by selling the dropped sealstones and other mats, and less than 20% comes directly from adena drops in cata.
Edit: And don't get me wrong, the farmers do cause inflation, they just don't control it.
Does a man that robes a bank and then buys a house with that money own that house? Prehaps UNTIL he gets caught. Can he then use the argument that he bought it, at least, with REAL currency even though he stole the money? Obviously not. That is typically what is happening with people buying Adena. They are really stealing it illegally and buying items with that stolen virtual money. If you want to test that idea. Please send NCSoft a copy of your transactions between you and whichever adena selling company you happen to be dealing with and see if you really own your weapon's/armor/items or even your character.
Actually the adena farmers are stealing the money and selling that stolen money to rotten players in an illegal transaction. The person spending the stolen money is still commiting a crime, and doing so knowingly.
If I robbed a bank and just decided to give the money to somebody, that person is innocent, but if instead I offered them the money I stole for a lesser amount of circulating money, they are no longer innocent becouse they have taken money they know is stolen.
To then spend that money on anything is essentially stealing the item in question.
That asside, the OP is both correct and incorrect about pricing. This is a SELLER's market. This, in its simplified form, equates to "I have it, you don't. If you want it, you pay what I ask or you go without".
Actually the adena farmers are stealing the money and selling that stolen money to rotten players in an illegal transaction. The person spending the stolen money is still commiting a crime, and doing so knowingly.
If I robbed a bank and just decided to give the money to somebody, that person is innocent, but if instead I offered them the money I stole for a lesser amount of circulating money, they are no longer innocent becouse they have taken money they know is stolen.
To then spend that money on anything is essentially stealing the item in question.
That asside, the OP is both correct and incorrect about pricing. This is a SELLER's market. This, in its simplified form, equates to "I have it, you don't. If you want it, you pay what I ask or you go without".
I've always kind of felt that one's impression of "fair" pricing within L2 is a refection of the degree they are self-absorbed.
Here's the thing, I don't log in my WS to provide a service to other players. I don't have him in the game so other players are assured of 'low' prices on what they want.
I log in to take advantage of other players economically so that at their expense, I can have what I want in the game.
I consider economics (marketing) as a fair extension of PvP. When I inflate a sale item and you buy it--I win.
Many, many players in this game (certainly my impression is the majority) simply can't function within the economy. They log in, buy hundreds of millions of adena on ebay, get into a large PvP clan and in roughly 6-8 weeks are approaching S-grade and have all the bells & whistles to be uber at PvP (from their ill-gotten gains).
This prototypical player doesn't wanted to 'bothered' with learning anything else about the game. Their PvP time, to them, is somehow MORE valuable than the hours I log into the game. Riiiiight.
Sorry, I don't offer bargains (except to clanmates and a couple close in-game friends). Everyone else is a mark to be beaten at economic warfare (lol).
If I can get you to pay 100m for something I produced for 40m, I'm going to laugh for days at your expense. It's not my job to remedy your knowledge deficits and impatience.
I consider my logged-in time as valuable even though I've never been in a clan that owned a castle!
I don't have an S-grade toon.
I've never been to an Antharas Raid.
There is tons of information about the game that I simply don't know and haven't been exposed to.
But I still get to value my playing time--and to me it's worth more than other player's time in-game.
Don't want to buy my inflated stuff? Then don't. But your opinion on how, why, and if it should be priced as it is has little impact on me at the end of the day.
Farmers effect the economy. Ebaying effects the economy. Supply & demand effects the economy. But the economy is also a function of non-linear pricing and directly related to the proportion of cheaters and fools.
If you're in that last group, you really have no complaints. The remedy isn't for me to produce to your benefit. The remedy to you being taken advantage of is two-fold. Learn the game fundamentals and manufacture your own stuff, and stop cheating.
So what you're saying is that this is standard practice. When a person OE's they take the costs of all their failures and then add them to the price of the successful attempt. This in turns becomes the over-exaggerated price that we have in-game. So you don't really lose anything when you attempt to OE, cause you expect to get it all back on your first success. And if your first attempt is successful, then you can charge based on everyone elses failures and make a very sizeable profit because everyone expects that you blew at least 2 or 3 weapons. The dumb ********!
What would really surprise me is how many people will accept this as reasonable.
You did not consider everything. What would be the price you pay if your chance of success is 0%!
I have gone throught 175 D armor enchants trying to make a +6 D grade tshirt. On my last attempt I started with 16 shirts and got 6 of them to +5. They all cyrstalized!
It was just cheaper, easier, and less frustrating to pay 5 mil for a shirt someone else made.
And almost completely wrong in the assumptions at the same time.
Most adena sold on adena selling sites is not "freshly printed" by a bot train just a couple of days ago. It comes from the market, from its sellshops and buyshops. It is adena already circulating ingame. And the more inflated the ingame prices are, the lesser part the direct adena drops take in the farmers' budgets.
For example, a typical cata train gets about 1 AA per 1 adena in its drops. If 1 AA costs 1 adena on the market, it means that about half of the farmer's money comes from AA sales, and about another half comes from direct adena drops. If 1 AA costs 4 adena, then more than 80% of the farmer's income comes from adena acquired on the market by selling the dropped sealstones and other mats, and less than 20% comes directly from adena drops in cata.
Edit: And don't get me wrong, the farmers do cause inflation, they just don't control it.
You completely misread and in the same time you are intentionally misunderstanding what was written.
I had a long post written but I think you are beyond any explanation I can give. Carry on.
I've always kind of felt that one's impression of "fair" pricing within L2 is a refection of the degree they are self-absorbed.
Here's the thing, I don't log in my WS to provide a service to other players. I don't have him in the game so other players are assured of 'low' prices on what they want.
I log in to take advantage of other players economically so that at their expense, I can have what I want in the game.
I consider economics (marketing) as a fair extension of PvP. When I inflate a sale item and you buy it--I win.
Many, many players in this game (certainly my impression is the majority) simply can't function within the economy. They log in, buy hundreds of millions of adena on ebay, get into a large PvP clan and in roughly 6-8 weeks are approaching S-grade and have all the bells & whistles to be uber at PvP (from their ill-gotten gains).
This prototypical player doesn't wanted to 'bothered' with learning anything else about the game. Their PvP time, to them, is somehow MORE valuable than the hours I log into the game. Riiiiight.
Sorry, I don't offer bargains (except to clanmates and a couple close in-game friends). Everyone else is a mark to be beaten at economic warfare (lol).
If I can get you to pay 100m for something I produced for 40m, I'm going to laugh for days at your expense. It's not my job to remedy your knowledge deficits and impatience.
I consider my logged-in time as valuable even though I've never been in a clan that owned a castle!
I don't have an S-grade toon.
I've never been to an Antharas Raid.
There is tons of information about the game that I simply don't know and haven't been exposed to.
But I still get to value my playing time--and to me it's worth more than other player's time in-game.
Don't want to buy my inflated stuff? Then don't. But your opinion on how, why, and if it should be priced as it is has little impact on me at the end of the day.
Farmers effect the economy. Ebaying effects the economy. Supply & demand effects the economy. But the economy is also a function of non-linear pricing and directly related to the proportion of cheaters and fools.
If you're in that last group, you really have no complaints. The remedy isn't for me to produce to your benefit. The remedy to you being taken advantage of is two-fold. Learn the game fundamentals and manufacture your own stuff, and stop cheating.
The problem with the L2 market is that it is anything but similar to a RL market. There is no regulation in the L2 market to stop people from getting scammed and overcharged. It would be illegal to commit these types of things in the RL Market (try to scam/overcharge people on things they desperately need en masse), but it isn't in L2. So in reality your comparison is a farce.
I don't cheat and functioning in the market is the last thing I want to do. I only goto Market cities when I desperately need something and even then I will spend upwards of a week looking for something just to make sure I'm getting the cheapest prices. Clean Arcana Maces are now up to 500M. No thanks to those types of players (been there for like 1 week even though alot of people are looking for them so the price will have to come down for it to sale).
Economics and Marketing aren't synonymous. Servers like Luna have a great Market, and a horrible Economy.
The only reason why you feel comfortable inflating you prices is because you are confident that an ebayer will buy the item. If there weren't as many cheaters in the game you wouldn't be writing that horrible post. Instead you will be posting in on your server forum "WTS xxx Item".
I had a long post written but I think you are beyond any explanation I can give.
Well, as long as you are trying to "explain" something to me using stuff like: "You are disregarding the fact that <and then comes some simple, believable, but still completely wrong assumption>"...
* For the Record, a Clean DC Helmet on Luna is over 230M... WTF?!
Which servers are complaining the most about in-game Item Prices? Luna and Franz.
Devianne's Adena price is factorably less than Bartz and the prices in game are MUGH higher than on Bartz. This means that what I have stated about the relationship between Adena prices and in-game prices is true.
Franz and Luna have LOLPrices in game, and their Adena prices are dirt-cheap. This says that what I said about the relationship between Adena pirces in the real work and the in-game prices are true.
The cheaper the Adena is to buy, the more expensive it is to buy things in game. This is because the Adena prices in the real world have a huge impact on how much adena is introduced into the in-game economy by farmers. Cheaper adena = people will buy more adena. Inflation happens as a consequence because the items in game are priced in a way that looks similar to RL prices. Disagree? You do the math.
There are people who sell epics for RL cash, or adena = the amount of cash they will need when they cash said adena out to get cash from farmers who buy it. There are ALOT of items in this game that are priced in terms of RL money. Adena is just a medium for them to move that money from one bank (in game) to another bank (RL). It's like a currency exchange in actuality.
Please don't try to explain to me how the Adena prices in the Real World pretain to the item prices in game. They are totally related and until the Adena Prices go up the prices of items in game will continue to rise with it, and settle at a high prices when the Adena prices settle at cheap prices (in the real world).
I didn't want to reply to it because your post was [censored] stupid.
Please illustrate how it is wrong, or an assumption to you? Like I said, it's pretty simple.
Precisely my point. To a seller, selling for less is taking a loss. He can't replace it at that cost...so it is "what it is" is my point. And no, it is not against the law. Contracts (usage agreement) are not laws. Laws protect and enforce the TERMS of contracts, but they are not law.
You get a huge imbalance in the game. There is massive evidence of this when we see so many people running around at S grade and a few struggling legit players grinding for years to get there. People are always pointing out that this game STARTS to get fun around 76. This is because so many have abused the system and rocketed their way to the front lines so quickly leaving the legit players to struggle.
True, though you cannot discount the "losers." There are PLENTY of 8 hr a day players here. These pathetic individuals will rocket past anyone else playing...because they do nothing else significant but game. Vitality is one of the first times the game has started to address this issue. Unfortunately, it does not also affect drop rates. Vitality should improve drops, or players will reach higher levels faster with no money to show for it.
I'm not certain I understand what your saying here: Older players value their time more so its ok for them to buy Adena to save a week of grind? I think your right about this influence. Point in fact, it's gotten to the point where people will openly discuss actions like this thinking its fine. Kind of like the 50's where sex on TV wouldn't be tolerated for a second. Now you see it on a daily basis.
You misunderstand "older." By this I refer to players that have been playing for longer periods of time (3 year veterans). They have more money and newer players must enter the inflated market from zero. The server does not destroy adena except for teleports and shops. Since shops stop working at B grade, most of the adena is merely exchanged in circles. Imagine if the government only printed money and it never wore out and was removed from circulation.
This would be because they are trading within a market that's been abused for 3 years.
Exactly, the prices would be inflated regardless due to the inflation principle I mentioned above. Adena, like anything else, has a value in the trading system. More adena deflates it's value vs items.
/Agrees. But I'm not sure about your last sentence..
If the game had more ultra buyers (limitless pocketbooks) can you imagine the price of epics? It would be hundred's of billions...especially since the above principles compound as players leave game, get banned, or bot farming accounts.
I think you should check yourself, calling people who have high play times pathetic.
I think people who play this game and can only play 2h a day are somewhat pathetic because they always come back and complain about people who play more than them.
People are pathetic when they cheat, not because they choose to play more than you are able to.
That is what I call QQing (just is a less offensive manner).
Vitality is good to you low-play time pathetic players who play grind-heavy games with hardly any time to dedicate to it.
Up until WoW came out almost every MMORPG worth playing was a grind fest - and people even play that game for astronomical lengths of time when they have astronomical amounts of time to spare. It's their choice. Most MMO players that have been playing these types of games for years are used to the grind and don't mind it. MMOs have historically been brutal to casual players in the regard that you really couldn't advance and keep up without a nice amount of time to dedicate to them.
WoW has fortunately spawned an entire sub-genre that should be just right for you and others like you who think that the "typical' MMO player is pathetic. That's why it has 9M+ subs and L2 has 1M+ subs. People like easy games. Have fun!
Although I wouldn't use the word "pathetic" I think I understand SithMaster's point. This is not to say that his play time falls under this category but there have been many, many studies that reveal the negative affects of playing MMO's for extended periods of time both from an economic and psychological standpoint. Anyone playing a game for 8 hour's or more a day can't be doing much of anything else with their time. It can be illustrated this way for those that don't fully understand.
If I have a glass jar and I want to fill it with all the things in my life that are important to have we could liken those "big" things as say golf balls ie)family,friends,job,school,even church- if your inclined. Now all the little things that make life more fun and interesting we could call recreation and such; these things we could liken to marbles. What happens if we fill the jar so full of marbles and neglect the golf ball size important things in our life? We end up not being able to fit them in. It's important that people first put the golf ball's in first and fill in the cracks with marbles rather than the other way around.
People that play mmo's for such exended periods of time are liken to those that put the marbles in first. They have no time in their day for the more important things in life. People that put in the marbles first are those that love the game and the dynamic's, human interaction, and obviously the challenge of it all. These ones value the game for what it is. A game. They understand that 4 S grade characters and a castle doesn't get them a new, better paying job, doesn't build a better relationship with their girlfriend/fiance/wife, doesn't build their house or feed their kids. You can't touch, taste, or smell your in game accomplishments and achievements. These people will never be the best or have all the best equipment. They'll probably never own a castle or be noble. Never will kill the end-boss or go to Gracia/hellbound or any other place that requires that kind of time and dedication. But at the end of the day, it shouldn't keep them up at night either.
Remember you only have what 16 hours in a day. your job takes 8 so if you play for 8 guess what.... your out of time.
Note: I can say these things because I as well as many here have struggled with this illustration from the time I played defender on my atari to donkey kong to mario to zelda to final fantasy to neo geo back to turbo graphics 16 up to hockey on my genesis a few hundred games on the playstation. It never ends I guess. But in any case the struggle goes on and I think that its important that people that struggle should not be called "pathetic"...
**note: People have fought/killed/stole/died and gone bankrupt playing MMO's. Best to keep it in its rightful place.
There are negative effects for playing MMOs at all, and someone who plays 2 hours a day and got an expensive full drop from a mob can go haywire and kill someone who steals it. You don't need to play MMOS for 12 hours a day to be addicted and do crazy [censored] over them.
His point had nothing to do with people killing over MMOs, it was about people who played and advanced more than others because they had high playtimes.
The studies can say all they want, but half the people who play this game would be dead right now if it was true and set in stone.
You took much of what I said out of context. Comments can include the main point but also additional supportive points. For future reference, you should focus on my main points instead of making an entire post on 3 words it may contain.
First: Spending huge amounts of time playing mmo's is harmful yes. Why do you think after a couple hours you get the message that you should take some time off?
Second: I was simply making reference to events that have already happened for one reason or another that draw the conclusion that kids that play mmo's can get emotionally and/or psychologically attached to it. This can foster a whole array of negative side affects.
Third:His point had nothing to do about killing people? Who said that? When you quote a post I would appreciate you first of all reading the whole thing and then maybe constructing your comments to cover the whole context of what I was saying. This way, you cover the main points instead of making an argument to a supportive claim.
Forth: These studies don't say that every single person that plays a game longer than they really should is gonna kill someone or die. Studies have shown that adverse affects occur in people that play too much - for a variety of different reasons. These aren't fabrications but facts.
Precisely my point. To a seller, selling for less is taking a loss. He can't replace it at that cost...so it is "what it is" is my point. And no, it is not against the law. Contracts (usage agreement) are not laws. Laws protect and enforce the TERMS of contracts, but they are not law.
Contracts are promises that are enforceable by law. You can't get prison time for violating a contract, but you can be forced by the courts to perform the contract pay damages. If you disobey a court order, you can go to jail.
There is a law on the books in every state that says: once you enter into a contract, you are legaly obligated to perform that contract.
I dunnno the OP seems outright silly to me. Seems obvious he knows he is wrong but is like a spoiled kid who wants his toy regardless.
It is easy, if you think he is charging to much like everyone else has said YOU GO FOR IT GIRL!, get your own, and start enchanting away. See how much it costs you in the end to get a +7. But you know the odds are it will cost you more than 300M so instead you come here whining?
How about this get a +3 and be done with it? It is all you have the pocket book for and the guts for for.
but i don't know. a 100mil looks like a lot of money. how many +7s do you think you can make with 100mil?
if i sell a +5 for example. i want to sell it for an amount where i can make 5 more +5s. if all 5 happens to fail then there is no money out of pocket for my part. but if 1 success i'll have the money to make 5 more and it continues on like that. the sale doesn't stop with the price that was on the barganing table at that particular time but the transaction goes on. the price was high to cover for not just past lose but also for possible future lose as well.
but i don't know. a 100mil looks like a lot of money. how many +7s do you think you can make with 100mil?
if i sell a +5 for example. i want to sell it for an amount where i can make 5 more +5s. if all 5 happens to fail then there is no money out of pocket for my part. but if 1 success i'll have the money to make 5 more and it continues on like that. the sale doesn't stop with the price that was on the barganing table at that particular time but the transaction goes on. the price was high to cover for not just past lose but also for possible future lose as well.
This sounds pretty ******ed...
Funny and rather ******ed, Lol. Seems like you're one of those people who take months to sell something (i.e. until inflation catches up to your price) because no one in their mind will pay 3x the price of a specific item in profits unless they are a ****** ebayer with infinite funds.
This says that what I said about the relationship between Adena pirces in the real work and the in-game prices are true.
The cheaper the Adena is to buy, the more expensive it is to buy things in game.
There is nothing to argue with so far....
This is because the Adena prices in the real world have a huge impact on how much adena is introduced into the in-game economy by farmers.
...however, here you are jumping to conclusions.
Try to ask yourself first, why adena sellers sell adena on Luna so much cheaper than on Bartz. You are talking like these price differences are somehow mystically given, as if they weren't caused by some economic factors.
Cheaper adena = people will buy more adena. Inflation happens as a consequence because the items in game are priced in a way that looks similar to RL prices. Disagree?
Of course I do. Inflation is not merely a consequence, it's mostly the cause.
RL prices of ingame items are based on the IRL hardness to obtain these items ingame (on the amount of IRL work and IRL money a farmer needs to spend to produce them). They are pretty similar because the hardness is about the same for all servers. The amount of adena that can be spent on the same item differs on the different servers. The servers with more inflated economy (more adena per item already inside the server) give the farmer more adena for the item sold in ingame transaction, making farming adena cheaper IRL on more inflated servers. Which in turn makes adena cheaper in IRL shops.
Returning to the example of a cata farmer:
Let's estimate that an "average" DO or FP mob gives you 3000 adena and 3000 AA (you can check if yuo want, it's pretty close to reality). On a server with 1AA @3a, the farmer gets 12000 adena worth of drops for kiling one mob. On server with 1AA @4a, the farmer gets 15000 adena for the same IRL efforts spent. If the farmer charges the same amount of IRL money for the same amount of his IRL efforts, the adena on the 1AA @4a server will cost 20% cheaper in IRL money than on the 1AA @3a server.
What causes the inflation? The difference between the average speed of mats consumption and the average speed of adena consumption. In other words, the difference between the efficiencies of mats sinks and adena sinks.
the only way to possiblely make money while grinding in L2 these days is to use OE'd low grade weapons to hunt high level mobs. You save tons on ss/bsps cost.
I make money while grinding with Turn Undead (yes, that's 5 spirit ores plus ABSPS per nuke). The adena drops alone pay for the grinding (which shows how bad these "adena sinks" are at sucking), and LS76, base mat and common item drops are extra.
I think you should check yourself, calling people who have high play times pathetic.
No, I think I can state my OPINION anytime I please. It's not a right/wrong arguement. I like a career, family, friends, and my sportscar. Some people like to go "click click click" all day. Moderation in all things.
WoW has fortunately spawned an entire sub-genre that should be just right for you and others like you who think that the "typical' MMO player is pathetic. That's why it has 9M+ subs and L2 has 1M+ subs. People like easy games. Have fun!
WoW blows. These kids playing all day and failing out of college are in for a nice wakeup call someday. It's fine, but pathetic. I guess if I didnt need to work or socialize or work out...that might be reasonable.
Devianne's Adena price is factorably less than Bartz and the prices in game are MUGH higher than on Bartz. This means that what I have stated about the relationship between Adena prices and in-game prices is true.
Franz and Luna have LOLPrices in game, and their Adena prices are dirt-cheap. This says that what I said about the relationship between Adena pirces in the real work and the in-game prices are true.
Of course it's true. These are obvious facts that any idiot can see through observation. It's the assumption you make that follows that is foolish:
The cheaper the Adena is to buy, the more expensive it is to buy things in game. This is because the Adena prices in the real world have a huge impact on how much adena is introduced into the in-game economy by farmers. Cheaper adena = people will buy more adena. Inflation happens as a consequence because the items in game are priced in a way that looks similar to RL prices. Disagree? You do the math.
The more expensive things in game are, the more adena that exists on the server. The more adena in the market, the cheaper adena is in USD. You make the mistake of assuming cause and effect. Does X occur then Y or is it Y then X. Simply demonstrating a relationship between two things does not mean one causes the other. It could be quite the opposite...or a third factor influences both. This is part of that Scientific Method you learned awhile back...I hope.
In this instance, markets don't LEAD demand. Demand LEADS markets. The large amount of adena floods prices. People pay cash for equipment at their level...not for X amount of adena (at least in their heads, nobody wants adena for adena's sake). You think farmers want to lower their margin? Bots farming earn the same amount of adena per hour on any server. Why would they charge less on the server with a higher population? Because they have to...because adena doesn't go as far...because the larger population generates more ADENA WEALTH. Adena that circulates and never leaves the economy...thus leading to deflation...forcing farmers to run more bot trains to earn the same intake...but costing them more money. They make less return on investment on that server. You think that's because of something they are TRYING to do? That doesn't seem like a very good business model. Is there ANY reason why a farmer would LOWER his price? No, he wants the best price possible. He charges as much as the market will bare. Just like the discussion in this thread. These ARE real world policies and they are in example right here. Many people charge different prices for the same thing...markets set those prices no matter how much it COSTS you to make them.
Prices are high because of a dense REAL population, average age (years playing this game) is high, large number of players that bot themselves or trains to support themselves, large amounts of quitting players handing down cash piles, large number of items overenchanted, etc.
I do the math. I have several degrees in related fields. Nice try though.
I make money while grinding with Turn Undead (yes, that's 5 spirit ores plus ABSPS per nuke). The adena drops alone pay for the grinding (which shows how bad these "adena sinks" are at sucking), and LS76, base mat and common item drops are extra.
turn undead needs to be nerfed. no other class can solo hero rift like ee with turn undead - which is ridiculously unbalanced and laughable.
If Lethal Strike is nerfed as mentioned about Gracia Final, then it'll make Turn Undead useless. I'm not the best to say if it's good or bad, I'd be too biased. Of course I like my Turn Undead.
I make money while grinding with Turn Undead (yes, that's 5 spirit ores plus ABSPS per nuke). The adena drops alone pay for the grinding (which shows how bad these "adena sinks" are at sucking), and LS76, base mat and common item drops are extra.
The Adena sinks aren't that bad at sinking, just that some people have ways to circumvent it.
Rifting with Turn Undead is not comparable to hunting regular mobs. Try killing mobs like a nuker in Inquisitor, and tell me what kind of costs you have for getting the same XP. Doesn't matter if you use those spirit ores, you are still lethaling multi-HP mobs at a relatively high rate (or rifting wouldn't be worth it), saving ALOT of cost in the end. How many nukes in Inquisitor would it take to kill a mob lethaled by turn undead?
Bad comparison.
As for the stuff about prices the thread is pretty dead now and I don't have to time to write more walls of text to reply to other walls of text. But whatever it is, I'm sure it'll work itself out in the future. Once I move back to my old server I won't have to worry about prices anyways. I have everything I need and already have the adena stockpiled from selling the stuff I don't.
The problem with the L2 market is that it is anything but similar to a RL market. There is no regulation in the L2 market to stop people from getting scammed and overcharged. It would be illegal to commit these types of things in the RL Market (try to scam/overcharge people on things they desperately need en masse), but it isn't in L2. So in reality your comparison is a farce.
I don't cheat and functioning in the market is the last thing I want to do. I only goto Market cities when I desperately need something and even then I will spend upwards of a week looking for something just to make sure I'm getting the cheapest prices. Clean Arcana Maces are now up to 500M. No thanks to those types of players (been there for like 1 week even though alot of people are looking for them so the price will have to come down for it to sale).
Economics and Marketing aren't synonymous. Servers like Luna have a great Market, and a horrible Economy.
The only reason why you feel comfortable inflating you prices is because you are confident that an ebayer will buy the item. If there weren't as many cheaters in the game you wouldn't be writing that horrible post. Instead you will be posting in on your server forum "WTS xxx Item".
Well, Ten, I've generally followed what you say in posts and appreciated your input.
Here you just have me lost.
I didn't MAKE any comparison between RL & L2 econ/market. Not even by inference. So I'm not sure how a comparison I never made is a farce...but oh well.
As for RL--you are simply wrong there too.
Sorry to keep this dead horse topic alive, but do you really think Gasoline is somehow "worth" 4.00 per gallon or tied to price per barrel on the world market?
Do you think the bandaid you get at the hospital is "worth" $7.50 each?
For the record, "fleecing & scamming" are part of every day life in reality.
"Send me 15.00 plus shipping & handling and I'll send you my new miracle weight loss elixer"......."take this new wonder pill, for only 24.99 and your intimate relations will be prolonged like never before".
What world do you live in where there is no scamming and no price gouging?
Talk to a lawyer, used car salesman, politician, insurance salesman, heck--pharmaceutical representatives! (lmao) if you don't think there is misleading, price gouging, scamming going on.
It's everywhere around us!
Not that I want to enter this argument about whining about the economy in L2.
Talk about QQing. Biggest bunch of fragile sissies in the games are those standing around whining that "CSS is 21a instead of 17a!!! Those Dwarves are SCAMMERS! It's UNFAIR! There should be price limits!!!"
No THAT is QQing and that, my friend, can be heard most of the time while your walking around any sell town.
Now that I've made a real life comparison you can criticize it as a farce :)