..the reason why l2 is not so popular as a MMO in western market.
Today we had a lecture about culture, cultural differences and Geert Hofstede's five dimensions theory which pretty much explains why l2 is not so popular in NA/EU while it's so popular in China/Korea/Taiwan. Well the reason is pretty simple.
L2 is bassed about team work and working together to reach your goals. Countries like China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan have almost double less individualism rating than countries like USA/UK/France/Denmark and so on. To explain in simplier words l2 is set up about working togeter everywhere/everytime but western ppl rather wants be indivuduals than co-operate. In this case I trully believe that koreans do not understands us why we're crying and stuff like that.
In fact we're mistake not the game. However I still blame NCsoft which should take such things as cultural differences into consideration before game is localized :)
It isn't really news... Its very easy to see that there are unmeasurable differences in culture and egoism between asian countries and our demographic..
It mostly comes from the fact that in asian societies children are raised very young to work hard for what they want, and things have been this way for thousands of years. They are brought up their entire life with a set of values completely different from a north american, or non-eastern lifestyle all together. The easiest way for me to put it is simply that "we" need gratification. Like a dog learning to roll over, we wont listen and will not cooperate if there is nothing in it for us. Too used to being spoonfed everything else in life, all the luxuries that we take for granted day after day after day. This causes an inability to be able to *REALLY* look forward to the long term benefits and essentially ends up becoming a scenario where we are constantly searching every corner to find something that we can get that gratification out of, rather than being completely dedicated and devoted to the long task and hard trial that we have ahead of us.
If you need any further proof, Tibetian monks can study and train for tens of years to perfect their art in a single mastery, taking the time out only to eat and sleep each day. What kind of 9 to 5 office clerk has that kind of determination to self-improve?
Its just very rudimentary to see that there are unbelievable differences in the cultures and to put it basically, we are not as focused and determined as people raised in other societies are. Not to say people in north america are not determined, there are people all over the world who work hard for a living, and have a real passion for what they do.. but its a fundamental difference in the nature and basic foundations of discipline that is the difference.
That and spoiled white kids like to whine too much.
L2 is bassed about team work and working together to reach your goals. Countries like China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan have almost double less individualism rating than countries like USA/UK/France/Denmark and so on.
There's still more "team players" in the ~1bil NCwest world than the whole 50 million Korean population can provide.
There are more than enough potential players with the right mindset to fill the existing servers. Now if only they were brought here with some advertising and then not driven away by all this cheating and almost nonexistent customer support...
... I think shes trying to compare the size of the asian market to our NA servers which host basically the rest of the world..
We don't have 1/10 of the lin2 subscribers on NA servers than korea/china/jp/tw servers do..
After all there is nothing that justifies so few solo areas and the totally inutility of a unbuffed lv 80 char, even on PVP or PVE - showing the total dependence in another class (player) to play.
Not to mention the inhuman condition to gather materials for craft.
Can you imagine how hard is to get all the mats for a full Dynasty Set (armor and weapon)? It requires the coordenated effort of an entire clan for weeks...
There are more than enough potential players with the right mindset to fill the existing servers. Now if only they were brought here with some advertising and then not driven away by all this cheating and almost nonexistent customer support...
You make it sound like NA games have no cheating and existing customer support. Both Everquest and World of Warcraft are filled with cheaters and terrible customer service. Granted both games have a wide player base but I think the majority are NA players, specially for Everquest. Even with a great ad campaign I doubt many of these players would stick around just for the fact that the two I mentioned are far easier to level and get equipment, which just comes back to Jayy's post about the Asian consumers being hard working and determined rather then looking for that quick success.
After all there is nothing that justifies so few solo areas and the totally inutility of a unbuffed lv 80 char, even on PVP or PVE - showing the total dependence in another class (player) to play.
Not to mention the inhuman condition to gather materials for craft.
Can you imagine how hard is to get all the mats for a full Dynasty Set (armor and weapon)? It requires the coordenated effort of an entire clan for weeks...
Chaos
Next update they are lowering the requirements significantly, I think.
..the reason why l2 is not so popular as a MMO in western market.
Today we had a lecture about culture, cultural differences and Geert Hofstede's five dimensions theory which pretty much explains why l2 is not so popular in NA/EU while it's so popular in China/Korea/Taiwan. Well the reason is pretty simple.
L2 is bassed about team work and working together to reach your goals. Countries like China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan have almost double less individualism rating than countries like USA/UK/France/Denmark and so on. To explain in simplier words l2 is set up about working togeter everywhere/everytime but western ppl rather wants be indivuduals than co-operate. In this case I trully believe that koreans do not understands us why we're crying and stuff like that.
In fact we're mistake not the game. However I still blame NCsoft which should take such things as cultural differences into consideration before game is localized :)
Thank you for reading
Statu.
Thats why they release Aion for the euro market to answer to it. Quest based and more able to solo than party.
After all there is nothing that justifies so few solo areas and the totally inutility of a unbuffed lv 80 char, even on PVP or PVE - showing the total dependence in another class (player) to play.
Not to mention the inhuman condition to gather materials for craft.
Can you imagine how hard is to get all the mats for a full Dynasty Set (armor and weapon)? It requires the coordenated effort of an entire clan for weeks...
Chaos
In gracia final all mats for s80 will be reduced 50% and more!
In gracia final all mats for s80 will be reduced 50% and more!
Yes, but the quests for the recipes and mats are still ridiculous. Especially since a.) you cannot trade the quest items and b.) you pretty much can only get one guy in clan to the point where he can turn in the quest items for recs and mats (on HB), or you go insane because it takes so long. That together means that you ALWAYS need to have that one guy in party so that HE picks up the quest items via finders keepers. So you really need to plan and organize, and people need to be patient while others maybe get outfitted first.
..the reason why l2 is not so popular as a MMO in western market.
Today we had a lecture about culture, cultural differences and Geert Hofstede's five dimensions theory which pretty much explains why l2 is not so popular in NA/EU while it's so popular in China/Korea/Taiwan. Well the reason is pretty simple.
L2 is bassed about team work and working together to reach your goals. Countries like China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan have almost double less individualism rating than countries like USA/UK/France/Denmark and so on. To explain in simplier words l2 is set up about working togeter everywhere/everytime but western ppl rather wants be indivuduals than co-operate. In this case I trully believe that koreans do not understands us why we're crying and stuff like that.
In fact we're mistake not the game. However I still blame NCsoft which should take such things as cultural differences into consideration before game is localized :)
Thank you for reading
Statu.
Best thread I’ve read in a long time, you hit a crucial point in your argument Statu,
the reply from Jayy too
A thoughtful post followed by thoughtful discussion???
<checks URL>
WOw...
Anyway, I agree that the typical Western brat would have a hard time enjoying the meat of this game. Instant gratification and all that.
The endgame/PvP content is well suited for this market though (Less QQ and More PEW-PEW) which is too bad because there are only 2 ways to get to that point:
1) Grind, grind, clan coop, Grind ... Rinse and Repeat
2) You know...
If the situation was reversed, the game would have wide appeal in NA, a game where the early part is just as fun (or more fun) than the latter part would sell well. To top it off, the player that got to the endgame and found it lacking would (IMHO) find a great time on their own given American ingenuity.
The only reason why L2 is not that popular is because it lacks advertising. WoW makes cool tv campaings worlwide... has a translation in the spanish market too, which is a big mmorpg market (more ppl speaks spanish than english fyi) and therefor has a solid base.
There's also a variety of time zone (differences) for ppl that plays in NA or EU server, but for SEA/ Korean servers ppl are basically playing at the same time zone which makes partying a lot easier.
The only reason why L2 is not that popular is because it lacks advertising. WoW makes cool tv campaings worlwide... has a translation in the spanish market too, which is a big mmorpg market (more ppl speaks spanish than english fyi) and therefor has a solid base.
L2 has no adverstisement in western countries.
allow me to disagree here. L2 is not popular because it is open world design. in wow and other games of no such skill you are STILL rewarded for doing NOTHING in a battleground. you can LOOSE and still get enough points for top tier gear in mere weeks.
since its initial launch, Lineage2's open world detracted people into games less open. games where you can play in an instance, and cheaters really do go unnoticed. you know the Glider lawsuit? remember the figures for the case ? it indicated there were literally MILLIONS of Glider users. and how often do you see someone using it? FAR LESS than you see L2 bots; simply because the game of Lineage2 everything and everyone is open and visible. free to PK and pvp regardless of race, class, gender, or desire to participate in these actions.
L2 doesnt have subscribers because it is OPEN.
even if we got subscribers from advertising, i would be willing to stake my L2 adena on the FACT that these players a) will not be around long b) the few that do remain will not get to A grade before the use of ebay and bot. yes, AND.
other games are REALLY REALLY EASY where L2 is NOT. other games are full of actual quest content, where L2 demands your grind. other games reward your inactivity where L2 does NOT; you might get a bonus to vitality but vitality does NOT boost your drop rates. doesnt get you more adena.
Linieage2 is a game designed for people with a specific taste. it has its own flavour. you CANNOT say L2 is a game everyone would play if it was advertised more. people don't go buying Pistachio Iced cream simply because it was advertised more than Chocolate. much the same with games like Lineage2. people read reviews. the players that find Lineage2 to be the right game are the kind of people that do their homework; that come remembering their dislikes for other games.
If i can add a few insights from the older generation:
Alot of the difference esp for the NA population is simply we have been conditioned for rewards, life is easier in the NA areas has been so for the last half century.
I was going to write a long detailed post about the differences between the east versus west but not gonna.
The one major fact i would like to point out for this discussion is area versus population. Which has a vast impact on the NA/Euro servers versus the korean servers.
On the NA servers you have players from all over the world, NOT just from one timezone but from many. I know in the clan i belong we have members from EURO, Australia, and anywhere inbetween. That makes up to a 13 hour time difference between players.
On the Korean servers they do not have that, so hence they can group together as a clan more easily.
The korean servers targetted a specfic target group and locked out ALL others, that enables them to suit one group of players.
But what they did not nor want to do is adjust for the differences on the NA/EURO servers where members are spread out all over the clock with many hours time difference between them.
Think of it this way a server with 10,000 players:
9,000 of those players are spread out over a 3-20 hour time difference, making it hard to pull together as a unit.
1,000 are in the same time zone able to work hunt and play as a unit.
Its not hard to understand that the smaller unit will be stronger, better equipped and more coheasive as a unit then the larger unit.
The Korean population is approx, 73 mil all in ONE time zone. That is why the game works so well for them. That is why a grindfest is ok with them, other then work time sch`s or school time sch`s they are able to easily group, hunt and play as a unit, versus the NA/EURO servers.
That is the ONE major reason the NA/EURO players seem to be more solo oreited then the korean players.
If i can add a few insights from the older generation:
Alot of the difference esp for the NA population is simply we have been conditioned for rewards, life is easier in the NA areas has been so for the last half century.
I was going to write a long detailed post about the differences between the east versus west but not gonna.
The one major fact i would like to point out for this discussion is area versus population. Which has a vast impact on the NA/Euro servers versus the korean servers.
On the NA servers you have players from all over the world, NOT just from one timezone but from many. I know in the clan i belong we have members from EURO, Australia, and anywhere inbetween. That makes up to a 13 hour time difference between players.
On the Korean servers they do not have that, so hence they can group together as a clan more easily.
The korean servers targetted a specfic target group and locked out ALL others, that enables them to suit one group of players.
But what they did not nor want to do is adjust for the differences on the NA/EURO servers where members are spread out all over the clock with many hours time difference between them.
Think of it this way a server with 10,000 players:
9,000 of those players are spread out over a 3-20 hour time difference, making it hard to pull together as a unit.
1,000 are in the same time zone able to work hunt and play as a unit.
Its not hard to understand that the smaller unit will be stronger, better equipped and more coheasive as a unit then the larger unit.
The Korean population is approx, 73 mil all in ONE time zone. That is why the game works so well for them. That is why a grindfest is ok with them, other then work time sch`s or school time sch`s they are able to easily group, hunt and play as a unit, versus the NA/EURO servers.
That is the ONE major reason the NA/EURO servers seem to be more solo oreited then the korean servers.
>>> wrong... No green. Still comes down to being greedy and having no sense of teamplay. Teamplay works around obstacles, not uses obstacles as an EXCUSE.
>>> wrong... No green. Still comes down to being greedy and having no sense of teamplay. Teamplay works around obstacles, not uses obstacles as an EXCUSE.
It's not an excuse it's just what we are. We learned to be like that and we can't change that because it's in our minds and heart.
If i can add a few insights from the older generation:
Alot of the difference esp for the NA population is simply we have been conditioned for rewards, life is easier in the NA areas has been so for the last half century.
I was going to write a long detailed post about the differences between the east versus west but not gonna.
The one major fact i would like to point out for this discussion is area versus population. Which has a vast impact on the NA/Euro servers versus the korean servers.
On the NA servers you have players from all over the world, NOT just from one timezone but from many. I know in the clan i belong we have members from EURO, Australia, and anywhere inbetween. That makes up to a 13 hour time difference between players.
On the Korean servers they do not have that, so hence they can group together as a clan more easily.
The korean servers targetted a specfic target group and locked out ALL others, that enables them to suit one group of players.
But what they did not nor want to do is adjust for the differences on the NA/EURO servers where members are spread out all over the clock with many hours time difference between them.
Think of it this way a server with 10,000 players:
4,000 of those players are spread out over a 3-20 hour time difference, making it hard to pull together as a unit.
1,000 are in the same time zone able to work hunt and play as a unit.
5,000 are in the same time zone and able to work together 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Its not hard to understand that the smaller unit will be stronger, better equipped and more coheasive as a unit then the larger unit.
The Korean population is approx, 73 mil all in ONE time zone. That is why the game works so well for them. That is why a grindfest is ok with them, other then work time sch`s or school time sch`s they are able to easily group, hunt and play as a unit, versus the NA/EURO servers.
That is the ONE major reason the NA/EURO players seem to be more solo oreited then the korean players.
This is probably one of the best responses I have seen to the difficulties of NA servers and getting everyone together to on a consistent bases. However I just needed to add a little to one of your paragraphs.
The only reason why L2 is not that popular is because it lacks advertising. WoW makes cool tv campaings worlwide... has a translation in the spanish market too, which is a big mmorpg market (more ppl speaks spanish than english fyi) and therefor has a solid base.
L2 has no adverstisement in western countries.
Winner 1
Very good post and discussion.
If i can add a few insights from the older generation:
Alot of the difference esp for the NA population is simply we have been conditioned for rewards, life is easier in the NA areas has been so for the last half century.
I was going to write a long detailed post about the differences between the east versus west but not gonna.
The one major fact i would like to point out for this discussion is area versus population. Which has a vast impact on the NA/Euro servers versus the korean servers.
On the NA servers you have players from all over the world, NOT just from one timezone but from many. I know in the clan i belong we have members from EURO, Australia, and anywhere inbetween. That makes up to a 13 hour time difference between players.
On the Korean servers they do not have that, so hence they can group together as a clan more easily.
The korean servers targetted a specfic target group and locked out ALL others, that enables them to suit one group of players.
But what they did not nor want to do is adjust for the differences on the NA/EURO servers where members are spread out all over the clock with many hours time difference between them.
Think of it this way a server with 10,000 players:
9,000 of those players are spread out over a 3-20 hour time difference, making it hard to pull together as a unit.
1,000 are in the same time zone able to work hunt and play as a unit.
Its not hard to understand that the smaller unit will be stronger, better equipped and more coheasive as a unit then the larger unit.
The Korean population is approx, 73 mil all in ONE time zone. That is why the game works so well for them. That is why a grindfest is ok with them, other then work time sch`s or school time sch`s they are able to easily group, hunt and play as a unit, versus the NA/EURO servers.
That is the ONE major reason the NA/EURO players seem to be more solo oreited then the korean players.
Winner 2
It's not an excuse it's just what we are. We learned to be like that and we can't change that because it's in our minds and heart.
Yes We Can!
:D
I'm playing L2 because it's about clans. I leveled my Cardi by party only and I love it. :)
I must say I'm not in the consumerism madness which throw individuals into their egoism, so I'm not in the "I want the class that kills everything" way of play. But what I like isn't blind dedication to others, but just being with others. Killing thousands and thousands of mobs is stupid. Doing it with friends is fun.
But I don't think this is the reason of the success or failure of L2. WoW high-end content is about mindless dedication to your guild. Military-like guilds immediately appeared in western countries. Western players are totally able to sacrify a bit of their individuality for a greater reward, just like you present Asian country to be.
However, about Asian country, you just have to look at the competition in the educational system to understand how egoism can suddenly express itself in its worst form even if at work they won't do any scandal. And while even at work, the minds are changing and vacations become more common in Japan, there's a clear opposition between a part of the population working quietly in the old system and those who aren't integrated and develop individualism.
The lack of success of L2 in US is rather to link with the lack of presence of manga in US before the Naruto/Bleach/One Piece wave.
The lack of success of L2 in US is rather to link with the lack of presence of manga in US before the Naruto/Bleach/One Piece wave.
You forgot about Pokemon/DBZ ;)
..the reason why l2 is not so popular as a MMO in western market.
Today we had a lecture about culture, cultural differences and Geert Hofstede's five dimensions theory which pretty much explains why l2 is not so popular in NA/EU while it's so popular in China/Korea/Taiwan. Well the reason is pretty simple.
L2 is bassed about team work and working together to reach your goals. Countries like China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan have almost double less individualism rating than countries like USA/UK/France/Denmark and so on. To explain in simplier words l2 is set up about working togeter everywhere/everytime but western ppl rather wants be indivuduals than co-operate. In this case I trully believe that koreans do not understands us why we're crying and stuff like that.
In fact we're mistake not the game. However I still blame NCsoft which should take such things as cultural differences into consideration before game is localized :)
Thank you for reading
Statu.
Well, That and don't forget that a gaming is very competitive aspect in Asian cultures, almost a way of life to some... This is why you find a lot of Asian games requiring a lot more time to accomplish things, because they are supposed to be challenging, where as when you look at MMO's usually based off of an American/Westerner mindset, they tend to be easier and involve less investment of time. I mean, in a nutshell... when it comes to games, Asian cultures are far more Hardcore gamers than Westerners.
There's also a variety of time zone (differences) for ppl that plays in NA or EU server, but for SEA/ Korean servers ppl are basically playing at the same time zone which makes partying a lot easier.
...light elf female with IC heavy and FB so probably around 400 lbs.
ain't i funny?
no one's taking into account that there are different 'types' of servers in korea. there are some servers that restrict your account to just a few hours of play each week. there are the high-end pvp servers that allow botted boxed support and extra dd's so long as there is one person live.
they also work with the entire server for the epic raids, fyi.
korea has tv stations dedicated to specific games...l2 has 4 including a romance channel that reports who is dating/marrying who both in-game and out. could you imagine 'G69 tech romance tv' where they had xxx-play with all of the romantic scandals being reported?
also consider that if you do the exchange on won to usd, they're paying half of what we pay per month and they have 1000x better service.
i mean...i'm not calling for a revolution or anything...but--
hey pirotessa...i box my very own SE. her name was originally "GirlsFartFlowers" but AngelicHealer got mad at me being better than he was and got his clan to /gm me and forced a name change...then later bragged about it.
hey pirotessa...i box my very own SE. her name was originally "GirlsFartFlowers" but AngelicHealer got mad at me being better than he was and got his clan to /gm me and forced a name change...then later bragged about it.
I bow to your form of intellect... "GirlsFartFlowers"
the se was named after a funny moment that happens between all serious relationships between a guy and a girl...my gf at the time farted and it smelled horrendous. so i made a toon named that so she'd feel better. it's actually a compliment towards women and i would get several compliments a day on it.
After all there is nothing that justifies so few solo areas and the totally inutility of a unbuffed lv 80 char, even on PVP or PVE - showing the total dependence in another class (player) to play.
Not to mention the inhuman condition to gather materials for craft.
Can you imagine how hard is to get all the mats for a full Dynasty Set (armor and weapon)? It requires the coordenated effort of an entire clan for weeks...
Chaos
I couldn't agree more. And yeah... whats too much - is too much.
The game should be more balanced indeed between solo and party play, to fit and therefore attract more sorts of players.
Like some areas with weaker and easy to kill mobs for soloing, but with, of course, less drop and exp. And some areas with hard mobs and instances with better drops and exp to fit the cooperative players, not force party play on everybody.
It's actually not that hard to do so, just needs to edit the databse a little, even i know how to do it, so it takes minimal time and resources, and imagine how many players it would make happy and more active.
After all, these are EU/NA servers and should be fit for our "way of thinking" and we don't need koreans to adjust that for us, just some minor string line parameter and value changes in the database and VOILA, we have a game that fits everybody's needs.