yeah, just die and earn more exp. how hard is that?
or buy SP scrolls
honestly i dont see the reason for any SP duping exploit in the first place. after lvl 80 all your skills come in scroll form anyway.
buying SP scrolls will give u 1.5kkk SP? count how many scroll u should buy :)
And btw free SP imo will be needed for final gracia to OE skillz, so imo should be fixed.
sure, dino island farming for SPcrystals... sp scrolls very cheap from dusk if you are man enough to zerk dusk and own all the catas for farming AA...
if there is an SP dupe, its redundant.
Actually I made this topic not for kids that act like ******s. This method can cause another exploits, so imo GMs shout fix it asap.
If this is indeed true, I agree it should be fixed ASAP and the abusers banned. Thanks for bringing this up, make sure to let GMs know through other means than the forums.
yeah, just die and earn more exp. how hard is that?
or buy SP scrolls
honestly i dont see the reason for any SP duping exploit in the first place. after lvl 80 all your skills come in scroll form anyway.
Dont understand why you are flaming him spudnik... he is obviously talking about an in-game exploit/cheat. And for the record, SP will be very useful next chron so this is indeed dangerous.
Dont understand why you are flaming him spudnik... he is obviously talking about an in-game exploit/cheat. And for the record, SP will be very useful next chron so this is indeed dangerous.
i personally find it funny when person that has been openly botting for almost a year starts qq thread about some unlegit actions.
1) PvP from an early level
2) Be selective in your mobs (SP return does differ)
3) Party often
4) Don't use Brezes
5) Do some of the SP quests (there is one low level and one high level)
1. Have fun leveling, since this game is level-dependent and top-heavy. If you are making up a factorable amount of Sp at those levels, you aren't really leveling near peak efficiency. PvP is only fun when you have a chance to win :P It's definitely not fun when you only see the enemy when he runs over your corpse after killing you, cause you died in 1-2 hits...
2. That isn't always possible.
3. Some classes aren't party friendly, or can level 5x as fast without one. Levels are king in this game, before gear. If parties are inefficient, then go solo (sorry :( ).
4. This works Pre 7x. After that you want rezes. You lose too much time gaining the XP back. What's more important, your RL time or your in-game SP? I used to think the SP was, but things have changed since then :P
5. Those are pretty non-factor.
The best way to avoid being short of SP is to stop thinking you need to get every freaking skill in the freaking game. If you never use Aura Bolt and Aura Flare, why are you buying it? Curse Weakness, Fear, Sleep, Sleeping Cloud? Why waste the SP?
Spell Force in a clan full of < S80 characters? Those level 76 passives that have negligible effect on your debuff resistance? Learn to prioritize things. You don't need PvP skills while PvEing and I think PvPing at < 70 levels is a waste of time with the way the game is balance these days. You will end up getting XP-spot-camped by high level characters all day and all night. I know I was when I was C Grade in a clan with Wars. Even their Doom Cryers used to go sit at Ivory Tower and wait for me to go XP...
Only get SP Scrolls if you buy them with your own AA from farming in the catas. I would not waste adena buying the AA, cause it's overpriced, and people sell the scrolls in shops overpriced, also.
Pls can you give a link to that pach notes? never read about it :o But i did check allot of Gracia final info so a bit curios about the sp thing. BTW give a link only if in English:)
And about the exploit, no mater how important or not important it is must be fixed because it gives an illegal form of advantage to some versus the rest.
yeah, just die and earn more exp. how hard is that?
or buy SP scrolls
honestly i dont see the reason for any SP duping exploit in the first place. after lvl 80 all your skills come in scroll form anyway.
I hate to say it, but you got no clue what you're talking about >.<
Try to lvl to 79 just to realise that your SP isnt even enough to take 1 out of 3 skills while you didnt even take all the 76/77/78 ones..
I dont know why you are so worried about SP. I have almost 1 billion SP and nothing to do with it. Yeah, I suppose I could start overenchanting some useless enchantable skills... but that is pure indulgence.
I dont know why you are so worried about SP. I have almost 1 billion SP and nothing to do with it. Yeah, I suppose I could start overenchanting some useless enchantable skills... but that is pure indulgence.
Its simple, im sure that not only SP can be duplicated.
I hate to say it, but you got no clue what you're talking about >.<
Try to lvl to 79 just to realise that your SP isnt even enough to take 1 out of 3 skills while you didnt even take all the 76/77/78 ones..
really? cause i know plenty of Stormscreamers with all their 76-79 skills learned, going on level 80.
some of whom also have enchanted skills to boot.
SP in L2 really shouldnt be an issue for learning skills if youre playing the game instead of afk levelling.
the people who play the game always have enough SP.
the only way i could see an SP issue becoming hurtfully overpowered is if the chances of actually safely and reliably getting +10 on skills was realistic, which as we all know it isnt.
furthermore the exp and sp requirements for enchanting skills is being cut to 1/10th of what it is now, if my reading skills of those poorly done notes at blargh are done properly.
whats the issue?
if i havent seen it, dont flame me for not seeing it, point it out instead of being a loser ******.
heres a hint: IF PEOPLE DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT HOW ABOUT YOU SPELL IT OUT WITHOUT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH AS THOUGH EVERYONE KNOWS IT.
furthermore the exp and sp requirements for enchanting skills is being cut to 1/10th of what it is now, if my reading skills of those poorly done notes at blargh are done properly.
xp is going to be. sp remains the same.
Regardless of whether it has any use whatsoever or not.. Exploits should be strictly disallowed and the exploiters need to be banned.
really? cause i know plenty of Stormscreamers with all their 76-79 skills learned, going on level 80.
Maybe they do nothing but PvP, and no PvE. Maybe they were 78 for multiple chronicles, and maybe they get Powerleveled by the clan in High SP places like Darkness. There can be multiple factors at play, there.
some of whom also have enchanted skills to boot.
That should be calculated into the SP cost of leveling up since most classes that are tied to landrates absolutely need to keep their skills close to their levels, especially if they PvP.
SP in L2 really shouldnt be an issue for learning skills if youre playing the game instead of afk levelling.
I don't see what the difference is. There are nuker bots that leveled in the same places that I did. I'm sure we both had the same SP problems. A bot leveling at FoTD Vamp camp will not automatically gain less SP than a live player leveling there... What is the point of this statement, other than to call someone a botter when you probably don't even know them? That is against the forum rules, anyways. An indirect approach/insinuation, doesn't make it passable, either.
the people who play the game always have enough SP.
You're lying.
I think you got it backwards. Bots can always stay on 24/7/365 and grind the SP they need, real players don't play like that. Most real players also do not go out of their way or interrupt their playing session to put themselves in situations where they die more than occasionally just for the sake of having more SP when they level. Not in PvE, and not in PvP. Sorry...
To put things into perspective: Armenuah has enough SP, but she's 83. You don't pay for skills in 81+, so of course she has a huge surplus of SP. She has over 2 S80 levels worth of SP that she doesn't need to use to buy skills...
Also, some classes have higher SP requirements than others.
the only way i could see an SP issue becoming hurtfully overpowered is if the chances of actually safely and reliably getting +10 on skills was realistic, which as we all know it isnt.
It's realistic with safe enchant books. You can only go down so low before the Enchant becomes trivial again. You don't think a +6 to +7 Enchant is trivial to a level 79/80 character? They'd have to be really lucky (and stupid) to break their skills down to 0 over and over again (but with the decreased XP cost and so much extra SP from "duping", if this is true" does it matter?).
furthermore the exp and sp requirements for enchanting skills is being cut to 1/10th of what it is now, if my reading skills of those poorly done notes at blargh are done properly.
Only for XP, not for SP. Learn to read...
whats the issue?
The issue is obvious. You will be able to do 10x the number of enchants with you XP bar, but since they have cheated to get more SP, they will also be able to do 10x the number of enchants with their SP. NCSoft is throwing the ratio out of whack to allow people to not sacrifice as much XP, but get behind on SP (when the XP cost is lower than the SP cost, you lose SP by enchanting in S Grade (not S80) levels).
They are doing this for two reasons:
1. The XP requirements were too high.
2. Having the XP/SP ratio [almost] even allowed people to enchant over and over again without really "losing" anything. All you had to do was go grind for a couple/few buffrounds and then go try the enchant again, and you're back where you started... It was too easy, especially at high levels where you have huge SP surplus and lots of XP in that level at a very low %...
^^^ It's called balancing an MMORPG [a bit more].
They changed it from an XP penalty to an SP penalty. The little XP it will require is there for the sake of tradition.
if i havent seen it, dont flame me for not seeing it, point it out instead of being a loser ******.
Anger. Do you actually wonder why people flame you? People deserved to get flamed for using sources they haven't really read themselves.
heres a hint: IF PEOPLE DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT HOW ABOUT YOU SPELL IT OUT WITHOUT BEATING AROUND THE BUSH AS THOUGH EVERYONE KNOWS IT.
/thread
The thread will go on. It's just stupidity like this that needs to end. I know you love debating things, but if you don't know what you're talking about, you should stop wasting people's time with these long, useless replies.
Another thing you fail to realize/mention is that NCSoft decreased the amount of XP required in 76-79, but didn't decrease the SP required for skills. This threw the balance off, because after this went in you no longer gained as much SP in those levels as people who went through them before the update
That can be one of reasons why those other StSc were able to buy all of their skills with their SP, and StSc leveling up now have trouble. They probably have older toons who leveled to 78+ before these changes came in, so their SP gain was proportional to their XP gain. This is no longer the case.
I too am a StSc with a fairly serious SP problem. I am not a bot. I am legit as they get. And I have died plenty of times throughout my levels and taken non-100% rezes.
Anyway as a previous post points out, one factor behind this is that they rejigged the leveling curve when they raised the cap from 80-82-85. They reduced the XP requirement slightly for some of the high 70s levels, but left the SP required for skills the same. The result is obvious - not enough SP to buy your skills.
I'm a significant way into level 78 and still can't afford to buy one 78 skill (getting close though, got 20.5M SP and need 23). Not only that but there's still a 77 skill I didn't buy (and I'm not going to because it is being removed from the game anyway next update - Spell Force).
There is one other factor I'm surprised noone has mentioned. Did you level from 40-75 using a Hurricane-Shadow Flare 2-hit pattern? I sure did ... and I regret it. Those overhits (extra XP but no extra SP) add up! I make a point of not overhitting anymore on any of my characters (except every now and again).
Finally, I think the game is designed for you to ignore a few skills and just not learn them. Some classes have obvious throwaway skills that you can just ignore ... for instance most healer/buffer classes can wear both robes and LA. If you're only going to wear robes, don't learn the LA mastery. Same with say, Destroyers and their multiple weapon masteries (2 handed swords, blunts, polearms). Pick one or two of these and ignore the other.
The SH/StSc on the other hand doesn't really have a completely useless throwaway skill. You might argue Sleep is fairly useless now but I had learned all the levels of that before they nerfed it. Poison and Poison Cloud is another choice ... but they recently beefed up the damage Poison attacks do and in fact Cloud is sorta useful at chokepoints in seiges now. Hmmmmm ... there's some others though that you never use. Curse of Chaos?
There is one other factor I'm surprised noone has mentioned. Did you level from 40-75 using a Hurricane-Shadow Flare 2-hit pattern? I sure did ... and I regret it. Those overhits (extra XP but no extra SP) add up! I make a point of not overhitting anymore on any of my characters (except every now and again).
This is one of the biggest misconceptions on here that really bothers me. By using overhit, you're getting extra xp at no cost whatsoever. You'll still get your level 78 skills in exactly the same amount of time as you would if you didn't overhit (perhaps slightly faster, you levelled more quickly, so got new skillsets more quickly which should increase xp/sp gain very slightly), you'll simply be further ahead on xp when it happens.
You would choose to instead be level 77, rather than be 78 without a skill? If you're really so disappointed with all the overhits, simply go die to the guards a couple dozen times without a rez, it will exactly undo all those overhits you used.
Certainly if there's any sort of exploit related to sp, those who used it need to be banned and it needs to be fixed. I doubt it exists as well, but hopefully OP sent in a support ticket so they could at least look into it.
This is one of the biggest misconceptions on here that really bothers me. By using overhit, you're getting extra xp at no cost whatsoever. You'll still get your level 78 skills in exactly the same amount of time as you would if you didn't overhit (perhaps slightly faster, you levelled more quickly, so got new skillsets more quickly which should increase xp/sp gain very slightly), you'll simply be further ahead on xp when it happens.
You would choose to instead be level 77, rather than be 78 without a skill?
Yes. I would rather be level 77 than be 78 but unable to afford any skills.
But don't think of it as just one level...think of what happens if you do this every level from 20 onwards. Each level you are further 'behind' the SP requirement for that level's skills than intended. At first you can't learn all your skills at a given level. Then you can't learn all of a previous skill level's skills by the ~next~ skill level. You are digging yourself into a deeper hole.
There is no misconception. I understand what overhitting does. Yes you will still get a given skill in exactly the same amount of time. But it does put your character in a bit of a hole relatively speaking. You will get your levels, sure, but level means nothing if you haven't got skills to back it up. When you level in L2, your stats get a tiny, tiny, tiny boost ... but that's all. Your increased power as you level up comes mostly from skills.
I think there are some fundamental differences in mindset between different players. I personally have a bit of an OCD thing going on about the character being balanced and able to afford at least some skills upon levelling. So I see overhitting constantly as a bad thing. But others may not care about that and just want levels ASAP, which is an equally valid approach. Also, people who PvP more than I do certainly should overhit, as they die far more often.
Also a 'mindset' thing is how you perceive XP loss. I see XP loss as bad. Worse than it perhaps actually is. So OK, I could overhit like crazy, level, then die a few times to guards like you suggest, and I'd be in the same position as if I hadn't overhit. Agreed. But I hate the idea of actually undoing my hard work like that. I'd rather make the work harder to begin with, but not have to undo it ... even if the end result is exactly the same time invested. Again, that's just how I see it though. People are free to play their toon as they desire.
Not every skill ... that's unfeasible and I don't think the game mechanics intend that to occur. I think you should be able to get, as you say, the main nukes and some passives when you level, and the rest throughout the next level or two before the next skill level. And in fact that's roughly how it works out if you don't overhit and don't die that often (or overhit and die more often). Reason being the xp/SP figures are not made with overhit in mind, since not all classes can overhit (and overhit was not originally a feature of L2 to begin with, it was added in ... C2? Or C3?)
those are skills nobody uses cause they arent useful.
at least not anymore.
and the error i made was pointed out to me in a far more concise and polite manner than youve done. but thanks for trying.
and yes, Cardinals have the highest SP requirement in the game. Jute was nice enough to tally the SP costs for each class once. and i think you misunderstood what i meant by "people who play the game"
cause you know as well as i do, i mean play all aspects of the game. pvp and pve on a regular basis. loosing just as much as winning. fighting for exp spots instead of botting. the people that fight and loose.
no, i dont wonder why people flame me. i know its because some butthurt poster wants to pick at some detail of a post that was incorrect in some regard. in a few words ive managed to stir more debate then the OP's "there's a bug but im not going to say what it is i just want you to fix it" type post.
you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar - well i threw a corpse on the honey and brought an assload of flies.
i just thought a little controversy might actually point out the reason why the unmentioned exploit might be a bad thing.
This is one of the biggest misconceptions on here that really bothers me. By using overhit, you're getting extra xp at no cost whatsoever. You'll still get your level 78 skills in exactly the same amount of time as you would if you didn't overhit (perhaps slightly faster, you levelled more quickly, so got new skillsets more quickly which should increase xp/sp gain very slightly), you'll simply be further ahead on xp when it happens.
You would choose to instead be level 77, rather than be 78 without a skill? If you're really so disappointed with all the overhits, simply go die to the guards a couple dozen times without a rez, it will exactly undo all those overhits you used.
Certainly if there's any sort of exploit related to sp, those who used it need to be banned and it needs to be fixed. I doubt it exists as well, but hopefully OP sent in a support ticket so they could at least look into it.
Again, you fail to understand what he is talking about.
Every level is x amount of XP in length, and you get x / 10 (roughly) amount of SP in that level. When you level using lots of overhits, you get too much XP and it throws the balance out of whack. When you do this for several levels, you can "lose" (in a matter of speaking) many millions of SP to he overhits over many levels.
For example, a level is 500M XP long. When you go through that level, X (SP Gained in that level) is 500M * 0.10 (roughly). If you overhit and level 5% faster. X = X - (X * .05), because the extra 5% XP you got does not come with an extra 5% SP (due to overhit mechanics).
When you do several levels like this, especially from a low level, it adds up and you end up with huge SP deficits in the tens of millions mid-S grade... You're going round and round about this and that, but you are still failing to see where the issue comes from and you are not providing and type of feedback that can be useful for fixing it (or proposing to fix it). I think NCSoft should fix their game. They broke it, they should fix it. Yes, this is broken (the SP issue).
It's only a misconception if you totally misunderstand the concept.
This is hard coded into the game in S Grade levels, because the XP requirements were lowered, but the skill costs were not. I think removing Skill Mastery will help a bit, but I don't know if it will "balance" the issue out because you still are working against this in levels 78 and 79.
The game was initially balanced so that you could get almost all of you skills if you did not overhit because of the way the SP costs/gain was balance with the XP gain.
They broke it when they started adding skills. In C5 (or was it Interlude?) they lowered the SP cost for many S Grade skills to compensate, and then they added more skills (pre-S Grade and S Grade) and broke it again, but not as bad. They totally screwed it up when they shortened the levels and neglected to rebalance the SP Cost of S Grade skills...
They need to fix it.
Gaining a level doesn't increase XP/SP gain, it just puts you into another level. The only thing that will increase XP/SP gain is making your experience gain (kill speed) faster/more efficient or going to a better place to XP. If you don't have very good gear and/or very good support, going from 77 to 78 can actually hurt you IRT XP/SP Gain. You almost speak as if you get some sort of XP bonus for leveling....
Game Mechanics > Opinions.
I think the reason why 81+ skills don't require SP is because NCSoft know they totally fudged it up, so they took the path of least resistance. They also did this with the combo-buffs and other skills, for the same reason... Get more skills in A/S Grade when you already don't have enough to progress you character as intended? Can't be doing that!
those are skills nobody uses cause they arent useful.
at least not anymore.
and the error i made was pointed out to me in a far more concise and polite manner than youve done. but thanks for trying.
and yes, Cardinals have the highest SP requirement in the game. Jute was nice enough to tally the SP costs for each class once. and i think you misunderstood what i meant by "people who play the game"
cause you know as well as i do, i mean play all aspects of the game. pvp and pve on a regular basis. loosing just as much as winning. fighting for exp spots instead of botting. the people that fight and loose.
no, i dont wonder why people flame me. i know its because some butthurt poster wants to pick at some detail of a post that was incorrect in some regard. in a few words ive managed to stir more debate then the OP's "there's a bug but im not going to say what it is i just want you to fix it" type post.
you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar - well i threw a corpse on the honey and brought an assload of flies.
i just thought a little controversy might actually point out the reason why the unmentioned exploit might be a bad thing.
consider yourself trolled.
... What?
And if you read my post, I have clearly stated why the exploit is bad. Read, much? I think I italicized some explanation of the issue WRT the shortage of SP at higher levels... You still failed to catch it...
You stated everyone had enough SP - obviously lying (see the screen I linked)... Then you went on to assume that real players can outSP bots. I guess if you have the kinda playtimes I had about 8 months ago and play in groups at higih-SP areas you can, but the average player will be outXP'd and outSP'd by the average bot due to extreme playtime differences.
You said you know StSc with all their 76-79 skills. Why can't I get all my 76+ skills? Am I overhitting on my Necro too much?
Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Even if those skills are useless (there is one that I would pass up [Skill Mastery, until next update when it becomes quite useful], the others I would max if I had the SP, cause I know where and how they are useful - you obviously don't), it is still pretty much impossible for a Necro to gain enough SP in level to get all 77 or 78 skills at the appropriate level. This had to do with the issues aforementioned in my post above.
There is no contreversy surrounding you cluelessness. I just thought I'd point a few things out to you. Polite is not my style when dealing with stupidity. You know that.
You fail to understand at all Trensharo, it's a matter of time played, not levels.
Let's say that level of 500M xp takes you 100 hours of levelling to get, without overhits. So in 100 hours, you have gained 1 level and 50m sp. The alternative is to overhit. Now in 100 hours you gain a level, 25m more xp and 50m sp. You're free to choose the first option, but there is no tangible benefit to doing so.
If the choice is to be level 79 and needing 20m SP to get a skill, or being level 78 and needing 20m SP to get a 79 skill, I'm confused as to why anyone would seriously choose the latter. You will reach a point where only the xp matters anymore, yet you would so freely throw it all away now, somehow you think it's actually a negative to have the extra xp. I'm serious, if you want to have plenty of sp and think extra xp is a bad thing, please go die to the guards a couple dozen times. It will accomplish exactly what you want.
You fail to understand at all Trensharo, it's a matter of time played, not levels.
Let's say that level of 500M xp takes you 100 hours of levelling to get, without overhits. So in 100 hours, you have gained 1 level and 50m sp. The alternative is to overhit. Now in 100 hours you gain a level, 25m more xp and 50m sp. You're free to choose the first option, but there is no tangible benefit to doing so.
No... You get extra XP from overhits, but NO extra SP. If you get 5% more XP, you get 0% more SP. So when you are finish a 500M XP level, you get 47.5M SP instead of the 50M you would have gotten if you didn't overhit. When you do this over many levels, you lose tens - hundreds of millions of SP (depending on what level you are). I have leveled a MM and had to buy SP scrolls just to buy 1 level 77 skill (Ice Vortex) after dinging, because I totally abused the overhits (using the low and high level one to overhit undeads in FoTD). You figuratively "lose" SP by overhitting, because you throw the XP/SP progression out of balance.
If the choice is to be level 79 and needing 20m SP to get a skill, or being level 78 and needing 20m SP to get a 79 skill, I'm confused as to why anyone would seriously choose the latter. You will reach a point where only the xp matters anymore, yet you would so freely throw it all away now, somehow you think it's actually a negative to have the extra xp. I'm serious, if you want to have plenty of sp and think extra xp is a bad thing, please go die to the guards a couple dozen times. It will accomplish exactly what you want.
It's more than just the skills you have to buy. You have to do things like OE skills, also. The XP/SP cost for skill OE is balanced, but if you have NO SP to BUY skills, how are you going to progress your pre-S Grade skills. Level 79 and +0 skills? Thanks, but no thanks.
Get on a Storm Screamer and go nuke a level 83 a few times with a level 74 (+0) nuke and see what happens.
It's a negative to have the extra XP when the detriments of the overhitting (i.e. extra XP) outweighs the benefit. Leveling 5% faster (5 hours out of 100, WOW what a BENEFIT!) and then spending even more time getting the "lost" SP because you XP spot went light blue (XP Penalty, and things change at 78 :P ) makes it not all that worth it....
Do you understand NOW??? I totally understand... I just finished leveling my SPS sub to 75 so I got to watch in real time how my XP/SP progression went out of whack as I leveled using frequent overhits...
But that's only half the problem. Even on a non-overhit class like Necro you will get to levels where you SP Progression is broken, and it's NCSoft's fault. It has nothing to do with how often you die. I have explained it heavily (and more than once, now). Read, agree or disagree, and move on or whatever... Like I said: Game Mechanics > Opinions, and I'm sure NCSoft is aware of the problem, because the Skill Mechanics at levels 81+ and for the combination buffs and other skills are totally different to avoid furthering the issue.
You fail to understand at all Trensharo, it's a matter of time played, not levels.
Let's say that level of 500M xp takes you 100 hours of levelling to get, without overhits. So in 100 hours, you have gained 1 level and 50m sp. The alternative is to overhit. Now in 100 hours you gain a level, 25m more xp and 50m sp. You're free to choose the first option, but there is no tangible benefit to doing so.
If the choice is to be level 79 and needing 20m SP to get a skill, or being level 78 and needing 20m SP to get a 79 skill, I'm confused as to why anyone would seriously choose the latter. You will reach a point where only the xp matters anymore, yet you would so freely throw it all away now, somehow you think it's actually a negative to have the extra xp. I'm serious, if you want to have plenty of sp and think extra xp is a bad thing, please go die to the guards a couple dozen times. It will accomplish exactly what you want.
I don't know what most other people think.. But I kind of like to be able to afford all the important skills as I lvl up to get them. If that means I need to keep my lvl a bit lower by not overhitting to maintain xp/sp ratio, then thats something that i'll sacrafice.
MP is much better spent killing faster than overhitting anyway, for pretty much every class.
I don't know what most other people think.. But I kind of like to be able to afford all the important skills as I lvl up to get them. If that means I need to keep my lvl a bit lower by not overhitting to maintain xp/sp ratio, then thats something that i'll sacrafice.
MP is much better spent killing faster than overhitting anyway, for pretty much every class.
Not if you can 2 hit with both:
Hydro Blast + Solar Spark (38MP Overhit)
Hydro Blast + Solar Flare (85MP Overhit)
Since Solar Flare is 16MP More than Hydro Blast (69MP Nuke) and Solar Spark is 31 MP less than Hydro Blast, if you can alternate this sequence and kill MOBs (like an SPS can in FoTD), you actually save mana over two shotting with Hydro Blast. You don't need to do it every time, either. You just need to target a MOB that can be two shot with Blast + Spark after you kill a MOB with Blast + Flare. SH can do this also, in some areas.
Yes. It's a hard choice... Efficiency, or SP... It's yours, however! I chose to go with efficiency, since it is only a sub and I didn't feel like 4 boxing to have my EE logged in for Clarity.
:P
Nukers are not the same as Melee classes with Overhit skills. They are not as MP dependent as we are. They can just melee the MOBs down when they are out of MP, we are out of commision in the same situation.
No... You get extra XP from overhits, but NO extra SP. If you get 5% more XP, you get 0% more SP. So when you are finish a 500M XP level, you get 47.5M SP instead of the 50M you would have gotten if you didn't overhit. When you do this over many levels, you lose tens - hundreds of millions of SP (depending on what level you are). I have leveled a MM and had to buy SP scrolls just to buy 1 level 77 skill (Ice Vortex) after dinging, because I totally abused the overhits (using the low and high level one to overhit undeads in FoTD). You figuratively "lose" SP by overhitting, because you throw the XP/SP progression out of balance.
....Did you even read my post? I don't care how much sp you got in that level, I care about the sp/hour that you're getting. Overhits don't change your sp/hour, period. In 100 hours, you get 50m sp whether or not you overhit. The fact that you get an extra 25m xp is a side effect.
Whether you choose to not overhit, or choose to die repeatedly to a guard is the exact same thing. You're choosing to artificially lower your xp because you don't want to level yet. Why is the xp/sp ratio without overhits so perfect? As you yourself said, it's out of whack because of changes made, so by that logic you should be killing yourself repeatedly to fix it. It's the same decision you make by not overhitting.
If that's really what you all want, then go ahead, but it's a purely aesthetic choice, like choosing to wear majestic light on a nuker cause it looks pretty. There's no benefit to it, but if that's how you want to play, then have fun. Just don't come telling everyone else that majestic light is the clearly superior armor for nukers.
....Did you even read my post? I don't care how much sp you got in that level, I care about the sp/hour that you're getting. Overhits don't change your sp/hour, period. In 100 hours, you get 50m sp whether or not you overhit. The fact that you get an extra 25m xp is a side effect.
Whether you choose to not overhit, or choose to die repeatedly to a guard is the exact same thing. You're choosing to artificially lower your xp because you don't want to level yet. Why is the xp/sp ratio without overhits so perfect? As you yourself said, it's out of whack because of changes made, so by that logic you should be killing yourself repeatedly to fix it. It's the same decision you make by not overhitting.
If that's really what you all want, then go ahead, but it's a purely aesthetic choice, like choosing to wear majestic light on a nuker cause it looks pretty. There's no benefit to it, but if that's how you want to play, then have fun. Just don't come telling everyone else that majestic light is the clearly superior armor for nukers.
Your XP/Hour doesn't matter, this thread isn't about XP, it's about SP - the SP you will have to grind longer to gain after you ding, for reasons aforementioned....
You dont' seem to understand this.
You will level faster, but you will still have to grind just as long because you have to make up for the "lost" SP. If you grind the fast way for several levels (loads of overhits), you will have to grind so much more after dinging to afford your skills, that it can/will become frustrating. Ding 80, but I need 40M SP for my skill...??? These aren't 100 hour levels we're talking about... You have to take into account that the issue is compounding, and it gets worse the longer you level in this fashion, and it's not all the fault of the overhits. Read my earlier posts...
You ding 5 hours faster, but have to XP 5 more hours to get the SP. You will gain SP at the same rate as someone who is not overhitting, because the overhits don't give any. You may ding 79 50 hours faster, and then find out that lots of the MOBs you were grinding on are now giving XP penalties, so you'll have to spend 85 days catching up on the XP you lost :P
In some cases you will have to grind even longer to make up the SP, since the MOBs will go light blue (or some of them) forcing you to either eat the XP/SP penalty or move to another spot. The rules for XP and level disparity between you and the MOB changes from 77 to 78, for example.
You expect average nuker in average gear to go 3-4 shot on IoP when he could have just finished tomorrow in FoTD with little troubles and had all his XP after 5 more hours of playtime?
SP matters for more than just buying skills. This is not hard to grasp...
By getting only the most key skills for your class, you can still overhit freely and be higher lvl faster. The extra sp needed can be grinded afterwards.
Being in higher lvl areas killing with your key nukes is still better than being in lower lvl areas nuking with a full skillset.
So what if you cant get a skill at its learn lvl, just learn it later.
Indeed. I said that in my first post in this thread (or what I think was my first post).
But it was not all this bad, and it's NCSoft fault. I want them to fix it :P
I don't think a player should have to wait until 79+ to max out A Grade skills, but that is just my opinion; and, I was just trashing those things (opinions) :P
Indeed. I said that in my first post in this thread (or what I think was my first post).
But it was not all this bad, and it's NCSoft fault. I want them to fix it :P
I don't think a player should have to wait until 79+ to max out A Grade skills, but that is just my opinion; and, I was just trashing those things (opinions) :P
So....now you agree with me completely? So long as you can get your basic nukes, you will level faster and earn more sp/hour by overhitting because you will be higher level, at least up until S grade when you no longer get incredibly cheap upgrades to your primary nukes. Saying NC should fix it so that it's easier to get more of your skills is fine. Saying overhitting is evil is different.
If you do hit a level at which you start to incur huge xp penalties because you're unable to grind in an efficient location anymore, then you always have the option of delevelling, giving back some of the overhit xp. The point is you shouldn't throw away free xp for no reason and a decently geared SH will never need to, once you can 2-shot IoP you'll be set until 82+, at which point no one really cares about SP anymore.
The point here is that there is no functional downside to taking free xp. If someone walked up and offered you 100m xp, you're saying you would turn it down, I'm saying you're crazy. If aesthetically, you can't stand levelling without having all your skills, whatever, but functionally you can still get enough of them to continue levelling just fine.
... The best way to avoid being short of SP is to stop thinking you need to get every freaking skill in the freaking game. If you never use Aura Bolt and Aura Flare, why are you buying it? Curse Weakness, Fear, Sleep, Sleeping Cloud? Why waste the SP?
Spell Force in a clan full of < S80 characters? Those level 76 passives that have negligible effect on your debuff resistance? Learn to prioritize things. You don't need PvP skills while PvEing...
My explanations were not for the sake of argument. It was for the sake of halping people understand how the problem started, and what has caused it to progress to it's current state.
So....now you agree with me completely? So long as you can get your basic nukes, you will level faster and earn more sp/hour by overhitting because you will be higher level, at least up until S grade when you no longer get incredibly cheap upgrades to your primary nukes. Saying NC should fix it so that it's easier to get more of your skills is fine. Saying overhitting is evil is different.
If you do hit a level at which you start to incur huge xp penalties because you're unable to grind in an efficient location anymore, then you always have the option of delevelling, giving back some of the overhit xp. The point is you shouldn't throw away free xp for no reason and a decently geared SH will never need to, once you can 2-shot IoP you'll be set until 82+, at which point no one really cares about SP anymore.
The point here is that there is no functional downside to taking free xp. If someone walked up and offered you 100m xp, you're saying you would turn it down, I'm saying you're crazy. If aesthetically, you can't stand levelling without having all your skills, whatever, but functionally you can still get enough of them to continue levelling just fine.
Deleveling is not a way of gaining SP, it's a way of losing XP.
That doesn't solve the issue that I am talking about. NCSoft needs to do some rebalancing to restore the balance that existed in earlier chronicles, before they added many skills and reduced the XP requirements in the S Grade levels.
We're going back to square one. You didn't read my other posts! :P
A person should know what overhitting does. If they don't, then they are just an ignorant person. For someone at 76+ to say "I think it's cause I overhit a lot;" I don't quite know how to respond to that. Usually I do a bit of research on the game mechanics and gameplay before I start playing an MMORPG, cause I don't like to waste my time. My point was that even without overhitting, you can fall behind because NCSoft has basically implemented an SP penalty into the game when they lowered the XP Requirements and didn't adjust the skill costs to compensate, among other things!!!
Deleveling is not a way of gaining SP, it's a way of losing XP.
That doesn't solve the issue that I am talking about. NCSoft needs to do some rebalancing to restore the balance that existed in earlier chronicles, before they added many skills and reduced the XP requirements in the S Grade levels.
We're going back to square one. You didn't read my other posts! :P
No, we're not back at square one. In the very post you quoted (but apparently didn't read) I said I'm not debating whether or not SP costs are currently appropriate or NC should fix them. In fact I think 79/80 skills should be balanced as other levels are, such that all classes need a fixed amount of SP to get all available skills. Yet you continue to object to my comment that overhitting is a good thing.
Not overhitting isn't a way of gaining SP either, it's a way of losing XP. Whether you choose to delevel or not overhit, the result is the same, you lose XP while gaining nothing. If one is more appealing to you psychologically, fine, but functionally they are equivalent. There are VERY few situations in which it is beneficial, but they do exist, if you reach the point in S grade where you can no longer hunt green or higher level mobs, but that is almost entirely a gear problem, not an SP problem.
It's not a way of gaining or losing XP/SP. It's a way of keeping you XP:SP gain proportional.
And so is delevelling...
There's nothing magical about the default xp:sp ratio. You can obtain sufficient pve skills to continue levelling with less sp.
You are deliberately choosing to level more slowly, while obtaining skills no faster. You justify that action by aesthetics and nothing more, except for the single case where you can no longer hunt green or higher mobs. If that's enough for you, then so be it, there's no point debating that DC robes are better than maj light if you've already decided the maj is worth wearing for appearances, or that levelling more slowly is better because you'd rather not be 78 at all if you can't have all the 78 skills.
regardless of whatever the speed is, its much more convienient to be able to say "oh hey, i just hit 74, im gonna go to town and get all my skills now kthx"
rather than
"oh great.. i hit 74, now let me open my character window, grab my calculator, open a window to an online resource and find out how much longer i need to grind out here to be able to get all the new skills that i want to get to help me lvl faster so i can work my *** off without being to afford anything when its available like i should be able to"
You like to overhit, thats fine with me, you do your thing I could really care less. Just don't plan on being partied with me for long if you make it a habit after I ask you not to.
There's nothing magical about the default xp:sp ratio. You can obtain sufficient pve skills to continue levelling with less sp.
You are deliberately choosing to level more slowly, while obtaining skills no faster. You justify that action by aesthetics and nothing more, except for the single case where you can no longer hunt green or higher mobs. If that's enough for you, then so be it, there's no point debating that DC robes are better than maj light if you've already decided the maj is worth wearing for appearances, or that levelling more slowly is better because you'd rather not be 78 at all if you can't have all the 78 skills.
Enjoy PvEing with a lack of 78+ skills and low OE A Grade skills, then. I guess it's the sacrifice you have to make.
I have already illustrated how it can be more EFFICIENT AND FASTER to level with overhits. Sometimes convenience isn't the dominating factor.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Difference of philosophy. I am a strong supporter of progressing you character, fully (as much as possible), as you level; not the catch up later approach to character progression.
If you have Korean-type playtimes, this game doesn't take that long to level in, anyways. At least not pre-80. It's just a matter of how much you'll give up because it got boring :P
anyone got a link that says SP will remain the same cause i havent seen it and it seems like a pretty stupid addition
when i dinged 79 i was 150+ mil short of sp to get my essential skills and i was at least half way to 80 before i had most of them. i got owned by the same thing shinnai did (to a lesser extent) i paid my 30/40/60 mil for skills and NC decided they should add a few more so i can pay another 60
i have 650 milish sp ATM but if SP costs remain the same it won't last long with the amount of enchanting i have to do and TBH i won't be too happy that just because someone started playing a few months later than me they get to have more sp lieing round and can enchant more stuff
By getting only the most key skills for your class, you can still overhit freely and be higher lvl faster. The extra sp needed can be grinded afterwards.
Depends. There are factors that work against getting "the extra SP" later, such as outgrowing your best XP spots and moving to the levels with Vitality penalties (matters for those who doesn't play a lot).
regardless of whatever the speed is, its much more convienient to be able to say "oh hey, i just hit 74, im gonna go to town and get all my skills now kthx"
rather than
"oh great.. i hit 74, now let me open my character window, grab my calculator, open a window to an online resource and find out how much longer i need to grind out here to be able to get all the new skills that i want to get to help me lvl faster so i can work my *** off without being to afford anything when its available like i should be able to"
But it is just pointless NOT to get the XP (by not overhitting, or by delvling through pvp/deliberately hitting town guards, etc).
The choice is not between being lvl 74 (or whatever) on day x with all skills or lvl 74 on the same day with NOT all skills, the choice is between being (exaggerated) being lvl 74 with all skills on day x or being lvl 76 with the most important lvl 74 skills and a choice lvl 76 skill, and being able to use S grade (like I said, exaggerated).
You do not get more SP by not overhitting, you get the SAME SP on the same calendar date, but you are lower level. It may be a psychological problem, in that you lvl up and cannot buy all skills immediately - but on the other hand you also lvl up SOONER and can maybe get that cool new 76/77/78 skill earlier, by leaving out a lower level skill and saving up the SP. Who would you rather face? A lvl 76 nuker with Arcana Mace/vortex or a "but I have all the skills when I lvl up" 74/75 nuker?
Being higher lvl sooner gives not only earlier access to new skills, it also gives you more hp/cp/mp as well as better resists against other players in pvp. It is just better.
By getting only the most key skills for your class, you can still overhit freely and be higher lvl faster. The extra sp needed can be grinded afterwards.
Being in higher lvl areas killing with your key nukes is still better than being in lower lvl areas nuking with a full skillset.
So what if you cant get a skill at its learn lvl, just learn it later.
like I said.. I can understand why some people are happy to overhit and gain their xp that much faster. I understand the game mechanics and I realise I will still gain the same amount of sp in the same amount of time.. But for me the convinience is in being able to know when I have earned my skills, I will be able to return to town and get whatever it is that I need to help me lvl proficiently.
Also, not lvling too fast still gives me the ability to hunt with lower lvl clan members and do things I might not have been able to do if I had just rushed to S grade.
Depends. There are factors that work against getting "the extra SP" later, such as outgrowing your best XP spots and moving to the levels with Vitality penalties (matters for those who doesn't play a lot).
But it is just pointless NOT to get the XP (by not overhitting, or by delvling through pvp/deliberately hitting town guards, etc).
The choice is not between being lvl 74 (or whatever) on day x with all skills or lvl 74 on the same day with NOT all skills, the choice is between being (exaggerated) being lvl 74 with all skills on day x or being lvl 76 with the most important lvl 74 skills and a choice lvl 76 skill, and being able to use S grade (like I said, exaggerated).
You do not get more SP by not overhitting, you get the SAME SP on the same calendar date, but you are lower level. It may be a psychological problem, in that you lvl up and cannot buy all skills immediately - but on the other hand you also lvl up SOONER and can maybe get that cool new 76/77/78 skill earlier, by leaving out a lower level skill and saving up the SP. Who would you rather face? A lvl 76 nuker with Arcana Mace/vortex or a "but I have all the skills when I lvl up" 74/75 nuker?
Being higher lvl sooner gives not only earlier access to new skills, it also gives you more hp/cp/mp as well as better resists against other players in pvp. It is just better.
This has already been explained, and that's not the point.
The point is progressing your character in a more complete fashion as opposed to playing catch up at a later time. If you overhit a lot from D Grade to S Grade by the time you get to 74 you will be missing more than a few skills, trust me.
SP is unbalanced anyway. I didnt do any overhits from 78 to 79 and got like 70m SP for the full lvl. At 79 I got 3 skills that cost 80m SP each...gf!
@ Spuds first reply to me: actually afk powerlvling e.g FoG/ IT/ w/e AoE would give you more SP since the mobs there have a different SP/XP ratio...
xp/sp ratio afaik is completely dependent on mob lvl
if you are wondering why your Pp and SE have tons of sp it's cause they done so much of their xp killing lvl 78 mobs
I can't understand people who are QQing all the time. If you are a SH just CDL your way to 76 and I promise, you will have more SP than you will ever need. My main character is a level 79 necromancer and I have all the skills I need + on level 76 I had 75mil spare SP, on 77 I had 60mil spare SP and on level 78 I got ~ 50mil spare SP. As necromancers don't get new skills at level 79 you can imagine how much SP I got now ^^. There are the SP scrolls and AA on the market too. Yes, the price is high but for all the levels 78+ who play in parties (except for nukers) money are not an issue ever since NCsoft introduced HellBound and the Citadel. People are making 100mil/hour there without a problem.
The real problem for nukers now a days is to find a good spot to hunt! As far as I know there are only 2 good places for solo or small party hunt at 77+ and these are varka and ketra. All other places like Dino island require a large party and the exp is low or like IoP where you have to be solo and the exp is ridiculously low.
I can't understand people who are QQing all the time. If you are a SH just CDL your way to 76 and I promise, you will have more SP than you will ever need. My main character is a level 79 necromancer and I have all the skills I need + on level 76 I had 75mil spare SP, on 77 I had 60mil spare SP and on level 78 I got ~ 50mil spare SP. As necromancers don't get new skills at level 79 you can imagine how much SP I got now ^^. There are the SP scrolls and AA on the market too. Yes, the price is high but for all the levels 78+ who play in parties (except for nukers) money are not an issue ever since NCsoft introduced HellBound and the Citadel. People are making 100mil/hour there without a problem.
I thought we were already through with this, but dying wasnt an option to get "more" SP. Plus good CDL spots are rather limited. SP scrolls are NOT an alternative, neither is the d grade SP quest. And I'd like to know how you make 100m/hour on HB as a nuker... (if you calculate droprates divided by partymembers you wont even do that amount in a standart dagger,archer or destro party)
I can't understand people who are QQing all the time. If you are a SH just CDL your way to 76 and I promise, you will have more SP than you will ever need. My main character is a level 79 necromancer and I have all the skills I need + on level 76 I had 75mil spare SP, on 77 I had 60mil spare SP and on level 78 I got ~ 50mil spare SP. As necromancers don't get new skills at level 79 you can imagine how much SP I got now ^^. There are the SP scrolls and AA on the market too. Yes, the price is high but for all the levels 78+ who play in parties (except for nukers) money are not an issue ever since NCsoft introduced HellBound and the Citadel. People are making 100mil/hour there without a problem.
The real problem for nukers now a days is to find a good spot to hunt! As far as I know there are only 2 good places for solo or small party hunt at 77+ and these are varka and ketra. All other places like Dino island require a large party and the exp is low or like IoP where you have to be solo and the exp is ridiculously low.
I prolly died like 6 times in my character's life CDLing. You only die CDLing if you CDL in a bad place, are dumb, or have a bad connection (lag, disconnects).
Being a CDLer doesn't = you die a lot.
You are right about XP spots, though. I think we've had about 200 threads about that. The Melees just tell us to stop crying :P
Soultakers ahve 2 80 skills, and StSc will have more skills they can skip until then than Soultakers. Soultakers also spend more SP on skills below 76 than Spellhowlers.
Their skills at level 79 are 80M SP, and 150M SP at level 80. If they scaled this way into the 81+ levels, the skills would be 250-300M SP at level 81, and go up into very high numbers at 82/83/etc.
That's why they have lots of SP at their levels. They don't use it to buy skills, and the levels are very long, allowing them to accumulate that much :P
If they had to pay SP for their 81+ skills I don't think they'd be talking about their 1B+ SP Surpluses, keke. 2 81 Skills would wipe half of that surplus out, easily. An 82 skill would probably take half of the rest of it, and they'd be grinding SP for 83 Skills...
The new OE system is not friendly to S Graders (below 80), but I guess it doesn't matter if you're gonna wait until 81+ to OE you skills... I have already OE'd more than a few of mine, so I don't really care. Some people may, however.
Anyways, you can always kill yourself after you OE a skill to make sure your normal XP doesn't get so out of balance with your SP gain :P
100m in profit in an hour is probably closer to being realistic than 100m xp at least...
I mean...there are people that duo forts with oop buffers and can get ~1k KE in an hour...that's ~50m an hour for a duo...or if you can hunt desert by yourself, a good spot and I could get ~1.5-2 marks an hour and the occasional wind stone/ori/ada, that depends more on server prices but ~40m an hour on Phoenix.
Billionaire in a day?
yeah was taking to a buddy about it today and i'd say it's doable with enough OOP support not taking your stuff.... BTW which are the economic classes again? :(
yeah was taking to a buddy about it today and i'd say it's doable with enough OOP support not taking your stuff.... BTW which are the economic classes again? :(
He said about exping in citadel on lethals. Its like 20-22kk per hour and with new event it was around 100 :)
He said about exping in citadel on lethals. Its like 20-22kk per hour and with new event it was around 100 :)scary thing is i'm pretty close to that.....
Their skills at level 79 are 80M SP, and 150M SP at level 80. If they scaled this way into the 81+ levels, the skills would be 250-300M SP at level 81, and go up into very high numbers at 82/83/etc.
That's why they have lots of SP at their levels. They don't use it to buy skills, and the levels are very long, allowing them to accumulate that much :P
If they had to pay SP for their 81+ skills I don't think they'd be talking about their 1B+ SP Surpluses, keke. 2 81 Skills would wipe half of that surplus out, easily. An 82 skill would probably take half of the rest of it, and they'd be grinding SP for 83 Skills...
The new OE system is not friendly to S Graders (below 80), but I guess it doesn't matter if you're gonna wait until 81+ to OE you skills... I have already OE'd more than a few of mine, so I don't really care. Some people may, however.
Anyways, you can always kill yourself after you OE a skill to make sure your normal XP doesn't get so out of balance with your SP gain :P
you should chk out the discussion going on about this over at the "other" forum :P