That's more of a culture thing than anything else. Lineage 2 requires a lot of time invested to accomplish the good stuff, and most NA/EU Players will Opt for Easier games like Wow, that really don't require that much of a challenge or time invested to get levels and so on.
L2 is not localised at all.... They just put raw game that is more for korea/assia market. There're quite some things that has to be adjusted but I doubt NCwest has enough experienced programers to do the job.
Poor customer support and apathy toward legit players would be my guess.
ding ding ding, we have a winner. Everyone else fails for using the same excuses garriot did before they threw him out on his butt. He wasn't right then, and you guys aren't right now.
It's a culture thing? No, it is not. Remember when servers were full? I do. It's because of aion? No. Aion isn't included in this quarters profits, at least not in china (where they have over 100 servers zomg!). The non-aionitized subsidiaries also are beating us and are experiencing growth in lineage.
ding ding ding, we have a winner. Everyone else fails for using the same excuses garriot did before they threw him out on his butt. He wasn't right then, and you guys aren't right now.
It's a culture thing? No, it is not. Remember when servers were full? I do. It's because of aion? No. Aion isn't included in this quarters profits, at least not in china (where they have over 100 servers zomg!). The non-aionitized subsidiaries also are beating us and are experiencing growth in lineage.
I remember when the servers were full too. And I don't think "poor support" is the only culprit in the decline.
Just my opinion, but I think it's more complicated than that.
First, back in the day, I can't count the players who spent 4-5 months rushing to 55 who burned out and quit. Too slow to level for many. Now those same players quit at 67 or 72--same issue just a higher level they got to more quickly.
Second, even back then, ebayers ruined the game for THEMSELVES.
Let's face it, you jump into a 'new' game (L2) that is supposed to be PvP and find all the cheaters beat you to 'the top'.
You level like crazy, cheat (ebay) your way through easy gear (the hardest part of the game) only to find you are STILL out-cheated at 'the top'.
I think that dynamic is what causes players to leave as much as anything.
Maybe if players accomplished things working with others for themselves WITHIN the game, the sense of accomplishment and cooperation would return long-term satisfaction.
How sad for the "heroes" who bot and ebay up--only to find they have 10 billion adena worth of gear and can't always beat the others they find waiting at end-game. They don't stick around and reroll to retry the game in a legit way! They quit.
Cheating has a price. You can't expect the game design to remove all consequence for the weak and inept (those moved to cheat).
Just my opinion, I've always believe the BIGGEST price (to the player) for cheating is rapid onset disappointment and disillusionment.
It's overly simplistic to say "bots killed the game" or that "NCSoft failure with bots ruined the game". Newsflash! PLAYERS bot in L2. Would stand to reason those players ruined the game--for themselves AND for others!
Of course I think there are other factors. NCSoft support isn't very good. The development plan (lol) has been disjointed and probably introduced needed change about 2 years to late. Communication from NCSoft is poor. It's a grind-intensive game...whatever.
My opinion the #1 reason players have quit? Cause they tried to take shortcuts and found the game played that way to be unfulfilling and not worth paying for. Because the game demanded effort and even short cutting all that--they still didn't measure up.
Like playing 18 holes of golf and telling your buddies you "shot a 78"--even though you picked up, kicked your ball, didn't count strokes, didn't finish putts, took 7 'mulligans' and actually had a "98"....only to find you still lost all the bets for the day and have to pay up. Your buddies know you suck. They know you cheated. You know you cheated. You know you are still no good.
Who's going to keep playing golf like that? Not very many people.
That's more of a culture thing than anything else. Lineage 2 requires a lot of time invested to accomplish the good stuff, and most NA/EU Players will Opt for Easier games like Wow, that really don't require that much of a challenge or time invested to get levels and so on.
Time Sink != Difficulty
I remember when the servers were full too. And I don't think "poor support" is the only culprit in the decline.
Just my opinion, but I think it's more complicated than that.
First, back in the day, I can't count the players who spent 4-5 months rushing to 55 who burned out and quit. Too slow to level for many. Now those same players quit at 67 or 72--same issue just a higher level they got to more quickly.
Second, even back then, ebayers ruined the game for THEMSELVES.
Let's face it, you jump into a 'new' game (L2) that is supposed to be PvP and find all the cheaters beat you to 'the top'.
You level like crazy, cheat (ebay) your way through easy gear (the hardest part of the game) only to find you are STILL out-cheated at 'the top'.
I think that dynamic is what causes players to leave as much as anything.
Maybe if players accomplished things working with others for themselves WITHIN the game, the sense of accomplishment and cooperation would return long-term satisfaction.
How sad for the "heroes" who bot and ebay up--only to find they have 10 billion adena worth of gear and can't always beat the others they find waiting at end-game. They don't stick around and reroll to retry the game in a legit way! They quit.
Cheating has a price. You can't expect the game design to remove all consequence for the weak and inept (those moved to cheat).
Just my opinion, I've always believe the BIGGEST price (to the player) for cheating is rapid onset disappointment and disillusionment.
It's overly simplistic to say "bots killed the game" or that "NCSoft failure with bots ruined the game". Newsflash! PLAYERS bot in L2. Would stand to reason those players ruined the game--for themselves AND for others!
Of course I think there are other factors. NCSoft support isn't very good. The development plan (lol) has been disjointed and probably introduced needed change about 2 years to late. Communication from NCSoft is poor. It's a grind-intensive game...whatever.
My opinion the #1 reason players have quit? Cause they tried to take shortcuts and found the game played that way to be unfulfilling and not worth paying for. Because the game demanded effort and even short cutting all that--they still didn't measure up.
Like playing 18 holes of golf and telling your buddies you "shot a 78"--even though you picked up, kicked your ball, didn't count strokes, didn't finish putts, took 7 'mulligans' and actually had a "98"....only to find you still lost all the bets for the day and have to pay up. Your buddies know you suck. They know you cheated. You know you cheated. You know you are still no good.
Who's going to keep playing golf like that? Not very many people.
Circular Arguments are bad.
What you said is just a long winded version of what he said.
Every game has cheaters, ebayers, botters, macro hackers, exploiters, etc.
It has only affected Lineage II [probably] the worst among all subscription MMORPGs in the World because NCSoft is so lazy and incompetent at dealing with the issue.
If they had used a more sane game design, it would have saved them a lot of headaches, and made them a lot more money (at least in NA/EU).
Time Sink != DifficultyNot even close nothing difficult about killing the same group of mobs for hours upon hourse days after day. The concept is good the implementaion and support plain sucks, but nothing difficult about L2 except maybe catching Biaum up when you have to work and sleep.
i believe that even if there were no bots at all...no ebaying....lots of gms supporting us online....the game would die eventually...and that time is getting closer... how many years can a western man grind? we are at the 5th year of poinless brainless grinding... i my self have played 2 years and everytime i log in to l2 i feel like i am going to work or something... no fun at all... just waiting my card to expire...
i believe that even if there were no bots at all...no ebaying....lots of gms supporting us online....the game would die eventually...and that time is getting closer... how many years can a western man grind? we are at the 5th year of poinless brainless grinding... i my self have played 2 years and everytime i log in to l2 i feel like i am going to work or something... no fun at all... just waiting my card to expire...
you are growing up, pal, you are growing up.....
now, w8 for kids to respond with: "nooo! it's all fun! No work at all! We enjoy the game! I have alot of friends here!" etc. etc.
ding ding ding, we have a winner. Everyone else fails for using the same excuses garriot did before they threw him out on his butt. He wasn't right then, and you guys aren't right now.
It's a culture thing? No, it is not. Remember when servers were full? I do. It's because of aion? No. Aion isn't included in this quarters profits, at least not in china (where they have over 100 servers zomg!). The non-aionitized subsidiaries also are beating us and are experiencing growth in lineage.
It shows how litle you know about cultural differences and what effect it has :) I suggest you to start with Geert Hofstede (http://www.geert-hofstede.com/).
Individualism in western world: USA (91), Australia (90), United Kingdom (89), Netherlands and Canada (80), and Italy (76)
Individualism in Assia:
S. Korea: 18
Thailand: 20
Taiwan: 30
China: 20
Total Assia individualism rating is 24(not from numbers above) which means that those societies are 3-5 times more co-operative than we are. Just look deep at l2 mechanics and you'll see how much cooperative you've to be in order to achieve smth in l2.
For example: DD's dependent on buffers to lvl faster while buffers dependend on DD's to level faster. If you cooperate both sides wins! This is the spirit of l2 how it supposed to be played and is played in Assia.
While we, being individualistic society prefer other way around.
I think that NCNA personally werent able to change the game for their community and player base. In Asia they would like to level up and farm and kill mobs. In NA/EU servers players like to pvp, get gear and levels easier, kill bosses easier and etc. The blind copying from Asian l2 brought the NA l2 to this state in my oppinion. In my oppinion the game was 2 times easier in leveling, getting gear and raiding and in the same time fokused on pvp l2 in NA/EU servers would be still alive and full with players.
That's more of a culture thing than anything else. Lineage 2 requires a lot of time invested to accomplish the good stuff, and most NA/EU Players will Opt for Easier games like Wow, that really don't require that much of a challenge or time invested to get levels and so on.
Lineage 2 is not the only NCsoft game sucking in NA/EU market. Richard Garriott's legacy is prolly the main factor here.
As to L2... the second most detrimental (after Garriott's) factor for NA/EU market is lack of banning by SSN. It gives those cheaters who grind AFK so much advantage in this particular game that the communities of "social grinders" just stop to matter. Remove the SSN requirement for Korean accounts, and it will take just a couple of years for them to start massive server mergers, because the handfuls of cheaters will dominate the servers there (and drive most of those "social grinders" into some other game, Hello Kitty Online or whatever) in the same way as they do on NA/EU servers.
Lineage 2 is not the only NCsoft game sucking in NA/EU market. Richard Garriott's legacy is prolly the main factor here.
As to L2... the second most detrimental (after Garriott's) factor for NA/EU market is lack of banning by SSN. It gives those cheaters who grind AFK so much advantage in this particular game that the communities of "social grinders" just stop to matter. Remove the SSN requirement for Korean accounts, and it will take just a couple of years for them to start massive server mergers, because the handfuls of cheaters will dominate the servers there (and drive most of those "social grinders" into some other game, Hello Kitty Online or whatever) in the same way as they do on NA/EU servers.
I cannot agree here. The game itself is easy enough atm. I cant imagine it getting easier. Also i cannot agree that the game is dying just because its getting old or something. The game is dying because of bots, people are quitting because of bots. You cannot play cooperatively because of bots, there is almost no point in playing cooperatively because of bots, you cannot kill bosses because most of the people in the best clans are botting and are miles ahead and would never let you get anywhere near a boss, you cannot PvP because those who use a bot will always overpower you simply trough gear. Darn you cannot even go to a siege because those who go to sieges are ppl from the bot society.
If bots are completely removed and botting becomes a scary thought for the people then the game will see an increase in player population. Yes maybe some of the people that were botting will quit but that wouldnt matter. We wont see anymore members of X on Teon botting knowing they will never get punished. If no one is selling Adena players will actually have to PLAY the game. Right now im not even sure if the legit players are even reaching 50% of the playerbase and thats scary! Thats unseen in any other MMORPG!
Not being able to catch up old players with ressonable amount of time is what pushes this game backwards. Imo than they added lvl 78 cap(c4) NC had to reduce 1-75 requirements by half. c5(or interlude) new level cap has been introduced so requirements for 75-78 should've been reduced by half. Later on they added 85 so requiremnets 78-80 should've been reduced also! This would mean that starting player has a chance to catch up etc...
What you said is just a long winded version of what he said.
Every game has cheaters, ebayers, botters, macro hackers, exploiters, etc.
It has only affected Lineage II [probably] the worst among all subscription MMORPGs in the World because NCSoft is so lazy and incompetent at dealing with the issue.
If they had used a more sane game design, it would have saved them a lot of headaches, and made them a lot more money (at least in NA/EU).
Can't quite agree Trensharo. You're mostly right. But the guy driving the Porshe 100 mph down a side street past a school in a small town? We don't say "the problem is Porshe builds cars that are too fast for American roads!"
My main point is that player behavioral choice is AS MUCH at fault as the game design flaws, poor development, poor support--etc.
I think that NCNA personally werent able to change the game for their community and player base. In Asia they would like to level up and farm and kill mobs. In NA/EU servers players like to pvp, get gear and levels easier, kill bosses easier and etc. The blind copying from Asian l2 brought the NA l2 to this state in my oppinion. In my opinion the game was 2 times easier in leveling, getting gear and raiding and in the same time focused on pvp l2 in NA/EU servers would be still alive and full with players.
Just my thoughts.
I think this hits the mark right on target. Though we love the game and its pvp aspects, "she works hard for the money" is pretty boring to us. That ethic went out the window with the 60s. The general European and US populations that play online games just aren't there anymore. NCNA should have had the ability to alter the game to suite its player base. OR they should have had super events that catered to it and overrode the Asian propensity for hard labor to accomplish any goal.
Not being able to catch up old players with reasonable amount of time is what pushes this game backwards. Imo than they added lvl 78 cap(c4) NC had to reduce 1-75 requirements by half. c5(or interlude) new level cap has been introduced so requirements for 75-78 should've been reduced by half. Later on they added 85 so requirements 78-80 should've been reduced also! This would mean that starting player has a chance to catch up etc...
I have had several friends who were interested to come back, but when they heard what they had to catch up to in order to play with their friends, they just backed right off.... even if they did decide to "bot it up" to catch up, it would be a while before they could even hang out with their friends they left, so not a single one has returned.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be work involved in catching up once you have left the game, but it shouldn't be an overwhelming task to catch up to play with the friends that you have made. After all, that is a pretty huge factor in L2, the friends.
Can't quite agree Trensharo. You're mostly right. But the guy driving the Porshe 100 mph down a side street past a school in a small town? We don't say "the problem is Porshe builds cars that are too fast for American roads!"
My main point is that player behavioral choice is AS MUCH at fault as the game design flaws, poor development, poor support--etc.
RL arguments equated to in-game actions are just another form of those circular arguments I was talking about.
Their GM Team is almost non-existent, and their support is terrible.
Players know this. That is why they can buy things like +16 Drac Bows with RL Money and bot in open spaces.
And no, I don't want this to be a bot thread, but that's how things are.
LMAO--it certainly must be "freeing" for the players who have continually cheated not to have any responsibility whatsoever for ruining the game!
Those heroes with 20 billion adena worth of gear running 2 bot trains 24/7 are unfortunate victims with no free will at all. The fact that I have to compete with the hero bot trains has nothing at all to do with any choices by those players--it's the game's fault!
Personally I don’t think bots are the total and end all reason the game is the way it is today, they are a factor, but that’s not the whole reason.
One reason to consider is that the culture of MMO's has shifted in general as well, from grinding to questing, and has now been shifting from questing to achievements. Games like Wow have catered and/or adapted to this shift, they offer more goals for players to work for.
L2, the main goals you have to work for is class changes, sub classing, noble, hero, and gear. Other than that its just personal goals you set yourself like pvp, raid bosses, etc.
Even with all that being said, there are many many other factors that come into play for the state of the game. But I would not say bots are the main reason, they just hold a large share of it.
Also, friends starting at lower level, I agree, that is a byproduct of starting any game. The only thing about L2 that may have made that worse was the 20 level restriction.
Personally I don’t think bots are the total and end all reason the game is the way it is today, they are a factor, but that’s not the whole reason.
One reason to consider is that the culture of MMO's has shifted in general as well, from grinding to questing, and has now been shifting from questing to achievements. Games like Wow have catered and/or adapted to this shift, they offer more goals for players to work for.
L2, the main goals you have to work for is class changes, sub classing, noble, hero, and gear. Other than that its just personal goals you set yourself like pvp, raid bosses, etc.
Even with all that being said, there are many many other factors that come into play for the state of the game. But I would not say bots are the main reason, they just hold a large share of it.
Also, friends starting at lower level, I agree, that is a byproduct of starting any game. The only thing about L2 that may have made that worse was the 20 level restriction.
Just my 2 cents.
You got some good points. However missed whole achiement system which I hope we never gets. Achievement system = newest marketing trick to force ppl play longer, buy not so sucessful products etc. WoW always was easy leveling doing quest and it'll always will be. Achievements have nothing to do with it.
I agree, L2 should never get Achievements, and yes it is a marketing tool to make people play longer and has been introduced in more than just wow, the thing is, it is catching on and I can see it becoming the next step.
Also not arguing that wow is a easy game, easy to level in, easy to make money in, easy to get gear, etc....
you guys arent coming to grips with the facts. Throughout our games history there
have been cheaters. but thats not the reason of the large decline.
the truth is ..our game is outdated. its philosophy is outdated too. sure this game is doing good in korea and asia... it came from there. but lets look at the outdated gameplay first.
1. grinding = the leveling up by killing creatures is a very out of date mechanic.
most games nowadays offer you experience to killing things. but its not the
main way games these days get there subscribers xp.
2. Quests = L2 devs never fixed there hundreds of quests that could offer better xp.
they just never updated em
3. professions /lack of attention = scavenger Bounty Hunter fortune seeker!? really?
scavenger Treasure hunter fortune seeker........is what they meant
the devs dont care..........not so much as to have ever changed something that is blatenly wrong right in front of us, its because they dont pay attention
4. Graphics= as beutiful as the game is...i seriously cant beleave we turn as if we where on an x & y axis. they could have made movement slighty smoother
so the game is out of date. the engine is any way. theres better games out there
and unfortunatly, this game is losing customers, because she aint a spring chicken anymore
I love L2 i really do regardless of what i say, and i dont want it to go away.
I just know its an outdated game, i hope they could just...take some time and take care of the issues instead of making updates, run some ad campeigns and get some fresh players in.
i'd like to see that
city of heroes had badges/rewards/and acheivments
way long before wow ever thought about em, and its something i think they should have in this game.
LMAO--it certainly must be "freeing" for the players who have continually cheated not to have any responsibility whatsoever for ruining the game!
Those heroes with 20 billion adena worth of gear running 2 bot trains 24/7 are unfortunate victims with no free will at all. The fact that I have to compete with the hero bot trains has nothing at all to do with any choices by those players--it's the game's fault!
Got it.
~D~
But you're still going in circles, sir.
Those players exist in every game. The difference is that in other games they are banned when they are reported, cause GMs are active and will actually log in ASAP to investigate.
Not in Lineage II.
I wouldn't say the players are irresponsible. More like lazy and disingenuous.
The GM and Support Teams, however, ARE irresponsible.
Those Heroes have 20B worth of Gear and Bot Trains because the GMs allow them to run bot trains and accumulate that worth.
Those players exist in every game. The difference is that in other games they are banned when they are reported, cause GMs are active and will actually log in ASAP to investigate.
Not in Lineage II.
I wouldn't say the players are irresponsible. More like lazy and disingenuous.
The GM and Support Teams, however, ARE irresponsible.
Those Heroes have 20B worth of Gear and Bot Trains because the GMs allow them to run bot trains and accumulate that worth.
You got some good points. However missed whole achiement system which I hope we never gets. Achievement system = newest marketing trick to force ppl play longer, buy not so sucessful products etc. WoW always was easy leveling doing quest and it'll always will be. Achievements have nothing to do with it.
EQ2, WoW, WAR, and others have quest grind.
They do this because MMORPGs have matured and the market is bigger when you target a playerbase consisting of more than no-lifers and computer geeks. Most "Normal" people don't have the time to grind XP/Gear/Whatever like in older EQ/DAoC ToA/L2.
Grinding is fine, as long as the XP progression is balanced.
In Lineage II, the XP Progression isn't balanced...
13-17k XP for a level 76-77 toon in a field in FoTD, then 12k XP for a level 79-80 character in a field...
The game has ******ed design, and the devs don't seem to have put any thought into it.
The grind doesn't have to be as ******ed, they just want it to be that way. The balance the game in a very discriminating fashion, also.
disingenuous.
Wow! One of my favorite words and rarely used, but quite descriptive! Kudos :D
I would agree. One of the biggest problems that has resulted in blatant botting: No GM presense in the game. As a new player, long ago, it was obvious to me who was botting and who wasn't, and I was hardly seasoned and capable of knowing those things at the time. I dont care if the leader was there present, you knew the rest of the party was not. If GMs were really in the game and present, the botting would never have gotten to where it is now.
Wow! One of my favorite words and rarely used, but quite descriptive! Kudos :D
I would agree. One of the biggest problems that has resulted in blatant botting: No GM presense in the game. As a new player, long ago, it was obvious to me who was botting and who wasn't, and I was hardly seasoned and capable of knowing those things at the time. I dont care if the leader was there present, you knew the rest of the party was not. If GMs were really in the game and present, the botting would never have gotten to where it is now.
True, I back u up on that one. I dunno why they have that strange policy of remaining silent and when it moved from "silent" to "non-existent".
EQ2, WoW, WAR, and others have quest grind.
Not everyone wants quest grind. L2 is a fight of clans over resources, it's better be compared with EVE (which doesn't mean that it doesn't suck in that comparison, though).
Grinding is fine, as long as the XP progression is balanced.
In Lineage II, the XP Progression isn't balanced...
The XP progression of L2 is just not designed to free-running bot trains that restore their levels and gear in months after being eventually banned (if ever).
ncsoft is doing great everywhere but na/eu... wonder why p_q
yes, thanks to that -_- -_- -_- -_- (pardon my language) Richard Garriott
such a dead weight and liability -_-. finally that guy is gone and the accounting administration expenses will be greatly reduced :)
also have u seen the Q1 of other competitions such as Warhammer, Vanguard, etc ;)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My take on the Q1: - (with the economic slow down in mind)
Sale in NA : less than Q4 (holiday season) but about the same as Q1 2008. (Q4 2007 also generated the most sale ;)
Aion = cash cow for NCsoft, massive $$$$$$
they let go about 20 persons in NC Interactive (bye Richard Farrigott , u won't be missed)
Not everyone wants quest grind. L2 is a fight of clans over resources, it's better be compared with EVE (which doesn't mean that it doesn't suck in that comparison, though).
Quite oversimplified. TBH, I cannot really form a response to this.
MOST MMORPG games are Clan/Guild Based.
My point was that I'm tired of people equating WoW to "Quest Grind." It's not the only game designed in that fashion. Quest Grind works for most MMORPGs because most MMORPG players these days enjoy Quest Grind.
Most hardcore players play more than one game. I am subscribed to 4 MMORPGs at the moment, for example... We don't need to pick and choose. We have the subscriptions, and the time, to play whatever suits our mood on a given day.
The XP progression of L2 is just not designed to free-running bot trains that restore their levels and gear in months after being eventually banned (if ever).
But they do restore their levels and gear in months after being eventually banned (if ever).
Care to elaborate on how this affects the legit player population; who need to catch up to these players to be "competitive" for those resources that clans "fight" over in Lineage II?
L2's XP Progression is designed to lock players into the game at "factor levels" since those players will not leave the game due to the insane time/effort that they have invested in the game by then.
That's more of a culture thing than anything else. Lineage 2 requires a lot of time invested to accomplish the good stuff, and most NA/EU Players will Opt for Easier games like Wow, that really don't require that much of a challenge or time invested to get levels and so on.
Actually the game is easier in korea and not as hardcore
DD's dependent on buffers to lvl faster while buffers dependend on DD's to level faster. If you cooperate both sides wins! This is the spirit of l2 how it supposed to be played and is played in Assia. While we, being individualistic society prefer other way around.
well said...and others will tell you that people play both the DD and the buffer, becasue population is so low, there is no other way...and you can tell them, that if there were only 30 people on your server, nothing about your original statement would be less true.