Hi there
Is there any chance that NC Soft will make exp equal for mages and warriors 78+?? I mean, that warriors can go to Hell Bound and get about 3-5% of exp per hour while mages can only go to FoG where is about 1% per hour. There is no way to get 3-5% of exp per hour for a mage right now (my char is SpS).
Hi there
Is there any chance that NC Soft will make exp equal for mages and warriors 78+?? I mean, that warriors can go to Hell Bound and get about 3-5% of exp per hour while mages can only go to FoG where is about 1% per hour. There is no way to get 3-5% of exp per hour for a mage right now (my char is SpS).
Sure, as soon as they bring mage crits down to the level of melee crits ;)
As soon as they make melee hits cost the same mp as nukes :)
And they should also fix dwarfs, prophets, daggers, archers, SHs, olympiad, boss jewels, seed farming... and everything else in L2 before they even consider grind speed! :D
My point was that when mages get up to 78, they can basically 2-3shot everything (1shot if it's a crit)
Last time I 1shot anything, he was several levels lower than me at a siege :/
IMO any class that has 1shot capabilities (i.e. dagger/nuker) should have at least 1 disadvantage
This discussion is about pve, so killing speed against players at a siege is irrelevant.
What IS relevant, though, is that at the current high lvl xp spots, a melee party can keep going forever, while a nuker party either cannot xp at all or will run out of mp after a handful of mobs. Basically, nukers can aoe at a very limited number of places (and for worse xp than a melee party at hb), or they can solo, also in a limited number of places (which they usually have to share with melee soloers). Hopefully the next expansion will change this.
Of course a melee party COULD take a nuker with them, for crowd control and some debuffing. But most parties don't.
As soon as they make melee hits cost the same mp as nukes :)
it isnt relevant, why? okay ill tell you why.
Ill use my SK class as an example. lvl 74 skill judgement Melee Skill, i can do around 800-1200 on a goddard bandersnatch or so. depending on if its low Pdef etc etc.
MP Cost is 70
Normal crits hits are around 400-600? and maybe up to 800 with a crit power herb.
my SK can do around 600-1200 with drain health depending on my herbs and BSPS to the same mobs. crits are near 1 hits. (very low crit chance btw on that)
SP Cost 51.
Magic attack classes:
Spell Howler.. i beleive one of your most used magic attacks is what? Hurricane?
MP cost 67, 3 less than my judgement, but i assure you its alot stronger.
then another attack spell is.. tempest 100 MP cost 30 more than my Attack skill, again tho its an AOE and also ALOT stronger.
and might i add with the right gear u can 1 shot with your spells like hurricane right? okay and on top of that u got what 3000 MP? and i got 1400... and you regen MP alot quicker to.
that flat out doesnt work out. You can 1 hit kill with a 67 MP Skill regen that 67 MP 2 times faster than I ever could and ontop of that your magic crits make u do what? 4000 damage a shot to = levelish monsters (higher and higher as u reach higher levels to) i dont know how that argument pans out. melee hits already cost very close to the MP a nuke costs at 1/10th the damage and having your magic crits IN line with the melee crits ALSO do not stack up as a melee skill that can crit is 2 x more powerful for the same MP cost where as a magic skill is 3x as powerful for a total in the long run of alot less MP consumption.
correct me if im wrong but magic is still way stronger and even nerfing the magic crits don't call for nerfing melee skills to have that 20 or 30 more SP to make them on par Cost wise with magic skills.
Edit: I will admit that nukers in party can be painfully redundant, however I don't know if you havent noticed But in L2 nukers are not limited to only nuking.If you gotta get your hands dirty so be it, your still doing damage right? party killing doesnt need nuking? then just throw down with some fists or something.
Sure, as soon as they bring mage crits down to the level of melee crits ;)
??? you want mage crits to be 5x instead of 2.5x? Ok, I can deal with that.
And howler groups don't "mow" through scorpions. They can kill at about the same speed as a group with titans and GKs that never skill or aren't there at all, and after 1-2 buff rounds they go OOM. Light blue mobs in FoG don't give good XP by the way. Why don't you take a look at the VERY high level players (I'm talking 83-85) and see how many are mages, and how many are melee. Take a run through HB... see how many mage groups are there vs melee. It's pretty obvious....
As far as 40 to 78... it's kind of unbalanced. It's about the same (in fact maybe the aoe fighter classes are even faster than a mage) until about 68, then mages pulls ahead until 76, then it's even again. But that is a very bad comparison... considering you could do 68 to 76 in the same amount of time it takes to do like 20-30% at 82.
Ill use my SK class as an example. lvl 74 skill judgement Melee Skill, i can do around 800-1200 on a goddard bandersnatch or so. depending on if its low Pdef etc etc.
MP Cost is 70
Normal crits hits are around 400-600? and maybe up to 800 with a crit power herb.
my SK can do around 600-1200 with drain health depending on my herbs and BSPS to the same mobs. crits are near 1 hits. (very low crit chance btw on that)
SP Cost 51.
Magic attack classes:
Spell Howler.. i beleive one of your most used magic attacks is what? Hurricane?
MP cost 67, 3 less than my judgement, but i assure you its alot stronger.
then another attack spell is.. tempest 100 MP cost 30 more than my Attack skill, again tho its an AOE and also ALOT stronger.
and might i add with the right gear u can 1 shot with your spells like hurricane right? okay and on top of that u got what 3000 MP? and i got 1400... and you regen MP alot quicker to.
that flat out doesnt work out. You can 1 hit kill with a 67 MP Skill regen that 67 MP 2 times faster than I ever could and ontop of that your magic crits make u do what? 4000 damage a shot to = levelish monsters (higher and higher as u reach higher levels to) i dont know how that argument pans out. melee hits already cost very close to the MP a nuke costs at 1/10th the damage and having your magic crits IN line with the melee crits ALSO do not stack up as a melee skill that can crit is 2 x more powerful for the same MP cost where as a magic skill is 3x as powerful for a total in the long run of alot less MP consumption.
correct me if im wrong but magic is still way stronger and even nerfing the magic crits don't call for nerfing melee skills to have that 20 or 30 more SP to make them on par Cost wise with magic skills.
Edit: I will admit that nukers in party can be painfully redundant, however I don't know if you havent noticed But in L2 nukers are not limited to only nuking.If you gotta get your hands dirty so be it, your still doing damage right? party killing doesnt need nuking? then just throw down with some fists or something.
Let me get this straight...
You have no clue what the MP cost of several skills are, are ignorant of the fact that most Mages are -10 MEN for a majority of their levels (and SH has the lowest MEN among Nukers).
You don't even XP with basic buffs (Crit Power Herb? WTF???).
Then you resume comparing your - basically - unbuffed SK to a full-buffed nuker, probably one with amazing support and gear since you are talking about 78+ StSc 1 shotting MOBs with Hurricane (non-crits).
On top of that, you XP at Goddard Bandersnatches, so you probably aren't even higher than level 74, cause they start going blue at that level.
Seriously? ****.
Even an OL would outlevel you with the kinds of buffs you obviously [don't] run with.
You have no clue what it is like for mages at 78+; and, you have no clue how to play your tank, either.
Drain Life. LMAO.
Telling a Nuker to equip fists and melee MOBs has to be the epitome of idiocy in this thread.
??? you want mage crits to be 5x instead of 2.5x? Ok, I can deal with that.
And howler groups don't "mow" through scorpions. They can kill at about the same speed as a group with titans and GKs that never skill or aren't there at all, and after 1-2 buff rounds they go OOM. Light blue mobs in FoG don't give good XP by the way. Why don't you take a look at the VERY high level players (I'm talking 83-85) and see how many are mages, and how many are melee. Take a run through HB... see how many mage groups are there vs melee. It's pretty obvious....
As far as 40 to 78... it's kind of unbalanced. It's about the same (in fact maybe the aoe fighter classes are even faster than a mage) until about 68, then mages pulls ahead until 76, then it's even again. But that is a very bad comparison... considering you could do 68 to 76 in the same amount of time it takes to do like 20-30% at 82.
Polers (WL, WS, BH, Dest), Archers, Tyrants, Summoners all level fast.
Bishop can also level fast, being rechargeable.
There is some imbalance, but it is not nearly as bad as it may seem.
The only thing that makes it seem worse is the number of OE'd low grade mage weapons available.
I had a +10 Homu (152 M.Atk) for C Grade and +10 SoV (173 M.Atk) for B-A Grade to level my SPS sub. With gear like that, I deserve to outlevel a tank by a large margin. I'm sure if he actually buffed up and had +10 weapons, his damage would not be so sub-par...
That's not even touching on what kind of support a nuker or nuker group needs at higher levels, when a Tank doesn't really require much more than: 58 PP, 58 SE, 58 BD for soloing (all OOP, of course).
1% a Hour on lvl 78 with a Nuker party in FoG?
What do you do? AoE 2 mobs with 5 minutes rest after every mob?
Dont compare worst mage party ever to a Melee Party that can do Steel Citadel easy.
seriously, aoe in FOG is some of the best xp you can get outside of HB.
Not hard to put together a nuker aoe party there either, just need one tank/glad/titan with a pole to get aggro, healer/buffer/bd and maybe sws and gogo.
It is the best outside HB yeah... but it's nothing compared to HB. Also lets not forget the fact that S80 mats and quest items only drop in HB. ALSO lets not forget the only group area that doesn't turn blue at 82 is HB. IOP XP is horrible... I level on light blue mobs in ketra faster....
srsly 90 % of the posters here have no clue wat they are talking about...
exping mage is a nightmare and unless u lockdown entrance of chromatics, some good cata room or have smth like 4 boxes to AoE alone multy boxing spots like fog, it, pagans or mos u will end up nowhere (or leech a melee party, melee aoe party).
for a good hb grp u need 81 rechargers to be just able to exp there... not going to speak about plus 12 overenchanted skills to be effective there. not going to talk about the amount of gear u need to be effective there... while a single melee grps just needs a fine grp where not even all need to be 78 to get a good exp.
fog aoe unless its a 2 man party doesnt worth all the effort if u are a mage
pagan aoe is just lol
new solo areas are a lol too
I still have a hope about the new fog and the new dino... tough
please the boards.lineage2.com melees be quete and learn what ur melee classes are cappable of before posting...because of ******s like u this game is so broken.
seriously, aoe in FOG is some of the best xp you can get outside of HB.
Not hard to put together a nuker aoe party there either, just need one tank/glad/titan with a pole to get aggro, healer/buffer/bd and maybe sws and gogo.
You mean one tank or titan or gladdy and one of each healer, buffer, bd? Cause that leaves room for 3 mages if not.
Yea only need one heavy armor user with a pole to get the mobs all aggro on him, then a healer, 76+ cardinal ideally, some kind of vr buffer and a bd, then there is room for 3-4 nukers in the party as well. Although that much dd power is probably not necessary and will drain xp. If the poler is a strong enough DD even one nuker may be plenty. Might even try it with one light armor poler like tyrant, if you also have a sws for pdef. But yea there's room in party after that for a few more people of whatever class.
The super fog aoe guy in our clan is a sws, and I used to level a lot with a Duelist who went from 80-81 in fog aoe as the main poler. I was the mob "puller" because I run fast, resist dark, and have high mdef, and could crowd control with aoe stun if things got nasty. Although we've even had EE's pull for the party.
However I do understand xping a mage is a serious chore, and atm melees have it pretty easy. I know one nuker out at dino island and he boxes about 4-5 different toons and runs back for dances every two minutes. That would drive me SO nuts, I'm often too lazy to run even one buffer, but he's really persistent and he does level fairly fast.
Yea only need one heavy armor user with a pole to get the mobs all aggro on him, then a healer, 76+ cardinal ideally, some kind of vr buffer and a bd, then there is room for 3-4 nukers in the party as well. Although that much dd power is probably not necessary and will drain xp. If the poler is a strong enough DD even one nuker may be plenty. Might even try it with one light armor poler like tyrant, if you also have a sws for pdef. But yea there's room in party after that for a few more people of whatever class.
The super fog aoe guy in our clan is a sws, and I used to level a lot with a Duelist who went from 80-81 in fog aoe as the main poler. I was the mob "puller" because I run fast, resist dark, and have high mdef, and could crowd control with aoe stun if things got nasty. Although we've even had EE's pull for the party.
However I do understand xping a mage is a serious chore, and atm melees have it pretty easy. I know one nuker out at dino island and he boxes about 4-5 different toons and runs back for dances every two minutes. That would drive me SO nuts, I'm often too lazy to run even one buffer, but he's really persistent and he does level fairly fast.
dude leave c5 and welcome to gracia final where fog is just lol...i can solo aoe with my class that has 1/2 aoe skills in fog... with emp and ee buffs...and it still doesnt worth it
What's an archer crit? 2x more? mage crit 2x in pvp, 2.5x in pve? seems even to me ...
Oh wait, Archers crit 2-3 times in a pvp, mages only once (if lucky)
Oh wait, Archers have large cp/hp compared with mage
Oh wait, Archers have better m.def then mages p.def
Oh wait, Archers can beat a mage all day
But I agree, Bring Mages crits to levels of archers. I'd like to crit more often too ...
Moron
Your an Idiot.
Go ask properly geared, and buffed parties with S80, Song of Windstorm, Chant of Protection and so on how hard an Archer Crits in Mass PvP compared to a Mage.
The difference between a Archer and a Mage in Mass PvP isn't Damage, it's longevity, but your a complete idiot if you think a Stacked Archer Party comes anywhere close to a Stacked Mage Party, the difference is, unless the PvP ends Quick, your Archer party will still be around with MP and being able to put out Damage as if the PvP just started, not as lucky with the Mages.
ok, so a nuker can get from 40-75 as an actual player pretty quickly, but at 79-85 it's slow... maybe it's a trade off as opposed to the melee taking longer to get to 79 than a mage? then again... if you bot it up to 76, it doesn't take very long(not accusing anyone, just making a note)
why not bring everyone down to the exp gain of an average soloing prophet.
even things out a little so nobody gets more than anyone else.
Go ask properly geared, and buffed parties with S80, Song of Windstorm, Chant of Protection and so on how hard an Archer Crits in Mass PvP compared to a Mage.
The difference between a Archer and a Mage in Mass PvP isn't Damage, it's longevity, but your a complete idiot if you think a Stacked Archer Party comes anywhere close to a Stacked Mage Party, the difference is, unless the PvP ends Quick, your Archer party will still be around with MP and being able to put out Damage as if the PvP just started, not as lucky with the Mages.
First, I didn't mention fully buffed groups. Just normal buffs.
Second, if it is logevity, are you saying mages stay alive longer? Your last sentance is saying archers stay alive longer .. or am I mis reading that whole paragraph?
Quite possible that Dynasty makes a difference compared to s-grade/a-grade. Not sure since I'm still under 80
seriously, aoe in FOG is some of the best xp you can get outside of HB.
Not hard to put together a nuker aoe party there either, just need one tank/glad/titan with a pole to get aggro, healer/buffer/bd and maybe sws and gogo.
or...
77 sws, 78 BD, 78 SE, Dominator, 76+ cardinal, nuker,nuker.
SWS pulls w/ hp weapon, Dominator roots... no need for someone to use pole
Last time I 1shot anything, he was several levels lower than me at a siege :/
this made me laugh. a lot.
srsly 90 % of the posters here have no clue wat they are talking about...
for a good hb grp...while a single melee grps just needs a fine grp where not even all need to be 78 to get a good exp.
i chopped a bit of your stuff out just to illustrate that you either have poor cohesion or you just said that you don't need to be 78 to get into a good HB group.
ok, so a nuker can get from 40-75 as an actual player pretty quickly, but at 79-85 it's slow... maybe it's a trade off as opposed to the melee taking longer to get to 79 than a mage? then again... if you bot it up to 76, it doesn't take very long(not accusing anyone, just making a note)
i think the nuker's problems is that they are going from weapons that are 10+ to a +3. if they would just get themselves a +16 arcana mace, they'd be set! ;)
or...
77 sws, 78 BD, 78 SE, Dominator, 76+ cardinal, nuker,nuker.
SWS pulls w/ hp weapon, Dominator roots... no need for someone to use pole
back when i was a sws main, i would pull the entire south half of ancient battleground. literally 200+ mobs all at once and this was our setup. i pulled (had to re-sing wind half-way through the pull) while lordglav was waiting at the rock to aoe hate and we had an OL to aoe root. nukers were on clean-up.
the xp scrolled the entire way down...oop looter and split everything at the end.
Why do these low level 1/2 HP MOBs even matter?
We are talking about 78+ XP.
i chopped a bit of your stuff out just to illustrate that you either have poor cohesion or you just said that you don't need to be 78 to get into a good HB group.
It's pretty obvious what maya meant. All a DD needs to do is get to level 78 and they can shoot up in levels because DDs are in high demand for HB groups, and mages aren't. It's not a coincidence that there are an insane amount of level 81+ daggers, for example, cause they were insanely useful there for an entire chronicle or two. Unless you group totally sucks, they should not have any trouble out-XPing a solo mage at 78+.
Mage AoE groups are good XP, but there aren't that many places, and they need unorthodox support combinations that are hard to put together.
Not all melee characters level slow. I'm still trying to figure out why people feel the need to generalize almost every DD class into the "sucks" category just because some lowbie unbuffed tank started complaining about his MP cost (Lol) and DPS output.
those mobs matter since it was a proven example of how to pull huge trains for mages. if you can do 1/2 hp mobs, you can do full hp mobs or more. drop your grudge and quit being so trensharo about this.
as far as maya, there was a way to glitch lowbies into hellbound and i was wondering if that's what she meant or if she was just referring to two different circumstances.
those mobs matter since it was a proven example of how to pull huge trains for mages. if you can do 1/2 hp mobs, you can do full hp mobs or more. drop your grudge and quit being so trensharo about this.
No, not necessarily. MOBs that die in 1-2 AoEs allow you to pull a lot more than you would be able to do in FoG or in Primeval Isle, where MOBs are a lot stronger than their low level counterparts (in their respective level ranges) while having significantly more HP.
A Mage group can kill 1/2 HP MOBs all day with 0 downtime because they use hardly any mana doing it.
I can pull that entire field on my OL, root them, and then run up with a Necro and kill them with Corpse Bursts. It doesn't illustrate how to XP at 78, what the issues are at 78+ for mage groups. It just tries to hide the issue by saying "look we could XP on 2 shot (aoe) group mobs at 6x just fine, for 1k XP a kill".
Of course the MOBs matter. Sometimes the MOBs are just too difficult to level in that way. Take a low 7x mage aoe group to Stakato nest and try to AOE those MOBs. Come back and tell me if the MOBs matter, or not.
as far as maya, there was a way to glitch lowbies into hellbound and i was wondering if that's what she meant or if she was just referring to two different circumstances.
English is not Maya's first language. Stop being so serelina about it.
No, not necessarily. MOBs that die in 1-2 AoEs allow you to pull a lot more than you would be able to do in FoG or in Primeval Isle, where MOBs are a lot stronger than their low level counterparts (in their respective level ranges) while having significantly more HP.
A Mage group can kill 1/2 HP MOBs all day with 0 downtime because they use hardly any mana doing it.
I can pull that entire field on my OL, root them, and then run up with a Necro and kill them with Corpse Bursts. It doesn't illustrate how to XP at 78, what the issues are at 78+ for mage groups. It just tries to hide the issue by saying "look we could XP on 2 shot (aoe) group mobs at 6x just fine, for 1k XP a kill".
Of course the MOBs matter. Sometimes the MOBs are just too difficult to level in that way. Take a low 7x mage aoe group to Stakato nest and try to AOE those MOBs. Come back and tell me if the MOBs matter, or not.
English is not Maya's first language. Stop being so serelina about it.
can easily just add more mages in the group if the mobs are tougher. it's not that hard of a concept.
my group had a prophet and SE in there. for the harder mobs, drop the sws for a TK, drop the pp and se to oop, can even have the OL oop if you want. means party can be TK and 8 nukers...i'm pretty sure that's enough to kill at least 1-2x hp mobs.
as far as maya, i wasn't being rude about it...just asking for clarification.
start thinking about how I lvl with my 6x bishop in HB.... continue thinking... yes my bishop is a sub and my main is higher than 78. this is how u "glitch" lower than 78 in HB...
now think about that 8 mages and 1 tank is just lol... i ll put 3 buffed mages and they ll do 2 times more dmg than these unbuffed 8 mages... please... just please... start thinking.
the recuirments for support u need in melee grp to be able to exp in hb is 6x bd 6x sws 6x bishop 6x buffer and a recharger that is 76 with plus 4 recharge...
the recuirments for support u need in nuker grp to be able to exp in hb is 78 bd, 77 sws, very good cardinal, 81 plus rechargers and at least lvl 80 nukers with at least plus 10 nukes.
the recuirments to exp very good in melee grp is... get oop buffer, get a se, get high lvl tank, bd and sws and uups hi we can exp with 4 man party in hellbound and clear green spot... (note that u dont even need a cardinal cause vr does its job, note the dmg of a tank)
http://img27.imageshack.us/i/shot00429.png/
watch this picture... u see a huge party but I tell u that the dagger, the destro arent needed at all... the PP and cardinal just leech. I couldnt find the 4 man picture this is why I give u this one.
the recuirments to exp very good in mage pt in hb is... get a very high lvl dominator that actually land debuffs with high oed skills, at least lvl 81 recharger, at least 78 bd, a very good sws that can help the tank pull, at least lvl 80 nukers with at least plus 12 oed AoE nukes, a high lvl tank ... at least 60 dark resist on armors... good augments and prefferably valakas... now... do u see any logic here? cause I dont...
http://files.filefront.com/green+test2avi/;13472607;/fileinfo.html
watch this video to get a clue... note what lvl all the characters are and watch how their mp ends in 1 pull...note that this was one of the top North American and Euro servers mage groups and how hard for them is to do this. note that in this keys they were all alive but I can aware u that this is happening once per 4 pulls... there is almost always someone dieing in exp like this
Note also that if u aoe with a destroyer there u need just 1 destroyer (very high lvl and very good gear ofcourse) and 1 healer to be live... all the support could be out of party. Looking for jurky to give a screenshot of that.
In the end... this abg... If I remember correct abg exp was in c3... leave out c3 and welcome to gracia final where mages are ****** up in general.
those mobs matter since it was a proven example of how to pull huge trains for mages. if you can do 1/2 hp mobs, you can do full hp mobs or more. drop your grudge and quit being so trensharo about this.
as far as maya, there was a way to glitch lowbies into hellbound and i was wondering if that's what she meant or if she was just referring to two different circumstances.
You mean the glitch where you just go on your w/e level subclass after you get access with you lvl78+ main?
how about you read when i wrote "oop support" for the mages and just have the people who need the xp in party? if someone has all the support for a nuker, how is it so hard to buff more than just themselves? you can still have 8 fully buffed mages in a party with the right amount of coordination.
and no, i'm referring to the glitch where you could get a level 1 into hellbound just by swimming out to the pillar of light in the middle of the ocean and 'falling' into it. top pvp clans have done it on sayha for spies to see who was coming in when.
oh, and how about you not worry about hellbound? if you're not good enough at playing your toon, then you won't get it into a HB party. most people i know love having a mezzer handy...make better friends, maybe?
no facts and SS... not even movies... just lame flame...
come with something I havent heard...
you're saying that i'm providing no facts? you're saying that a mage party can't be fully buffed? you're saying that a nuker with an army of support toons can, in fact, only buff one person total? you're saying that a 4 man melee team in HB wouldn't like a 5th just for mezzing on the off-chance of a bad add or any number of other problems?
i know for a fact that a mage party can have full buffs...not that hard.
i know for a fact that one person's support can buff an entire party...just look at sieges.
i know for a fact that HB is sometimes chaotic...a mezzer is just like a tank in most areas, not necessarily needed but it helps guarantee safety.
it's not a flame; i didn't insult you in any way. another fact.
don't need screens or videos to illustrate common sense.
no facts and SS... not even a quote... just lame flame...
the fact is, just because you *can* have all those fancy buffs, doesn't mean you actually need them. i *can* have my attractive cubic up when i solo but i don't because i don't actually need it.
i talk about buffs, about the lvl support recuired, about the lvl of the dds recuired, about the skill enchantment recuired, about the gear, about augments...
u gave some c3 screenshot and u talk about some fancy buffs and cubics...
just get out of this thread because of terribad god awful ppl like u exping a mage is so horrible...
pretty much please...
go kill some varka mobs with ch buffs and think about how tough is to exp a 7x tank...
i talk about buffs, about the lvl support recuired, about the lvl of the dds recuired, about the skill enchantment recuired, about the gear, about augments...
u gave some c3 screenshot and u talk about some fancy buffs and cubics...
just get out of this thread because of terribad god awful ppl like u exping a mage is so horrible...
pretty much please...
go kill some varka mobs with ch buffs and think about how tough is to exp a 7x tank...
*sigh*
so set in your ways. so full of yourself. too proud to see the connections.
you go ahead and pay for your army of buffers...my 78 SE is just fine for me. leveling is slow but steady. also, i don't kill varka...just another one of your many snide assumptions.
so set in your ways. so full of yourself. too proud to see the connections.
you go ahead and pay for your army of buffers...my 78 SE is just fine for me. leveling is slow but steady. also, i don't kill varka...just another one of your many snide assumptions.
You know we could say the EXACT same thing about you.
Sooo you guys werent ******** about melee lvling back in c5 to pre HB? What about when rechargers were able to fully recharge themselves, that seemed sooo fair? Its melee's turn to lvl =)
Sooo you guys werent ******** about melee lvling back in c5 to pre HB? What about when rechargers were able to fully recharge themselves, that seemed sooo fair? Its melee's turn to lvl =)
sort of my point, all along...guess i just never came out and said it. it's the way it is now so no point in complaining since nothing we say ever reaches the dev's eyes in the first place.
in gracia final, they're taking away a bunch of good lowbie xp spots and giving them to 81+ so enjoi.
sort of my point, all along...guess i just never came out and said it. it's the way it is now so no point in complaining since nothing we say ever reaches the dev's eyes in the first place.
in gracia final, they're taking away a bunch of good lowbie xp spots and giving them to 81+ so enjoi.
Sooo you guys werent ******** about melee lvling back in c5 to pre HB? What about when rechargers were able to fully recharge themselves, that seemed sooo fair? Its melee's turn to lvl =)
I'm sorry... at what point did titans suck C5 to HB? Rechargers recharging had nothing to do with it... I actually like invo better. Rechargers had to have acumen and usually pow or dances to be able to actually recharge themselves and it be more effective than sitting. Now I can keep my rechargers OOP and invo them, it works much better. End game groups... be it 6x in AL back in the day, or 80+ in HB now are always, and have always been melee groups. Nukers have always complained, but when you are forced to fight light blue mobs thats a bit over the line....
Sooo you guys werent ******** about melee lvling back in c5 to pre HB? What about when rechargers were able to fully recharge themselves, that seemed sooo fair? Its melee's turn to lvl =)
meeles NEVER had any problem leveling imo not since VR buff came atleast.
also you forget something here. 1-79 is 2.1b XP, 79-80 is also 2.1b XP. so regardless who levels faster to 79 that dont really matter since its the XP speed after 79 that really matters, as its there you start getting the best skills for your class aswell as the SP needed for your skill enchants.
my GK can get some 11m xp/h easy, just DC and BD oop. my necro however with 2 rechargers oop will run out of mp trying to get that amount of XP/h, i can do it for a short while, but then i need to rest for mp every now and then. oh and dont forget that as im using death spike i use less MP then most other nukers.
id be intrested to know how many 83+ nukers there is compared to 83+ of other DD classes.
meeles NEVER had any problem leveling imo not since VR buff came atleast.
also you forget something here. 1-79 is 2.1b XP, 79-80 is also 2.1b XP. so regardless who levels faster to 79 that dont really matter since its the XP speed after 79 that really matters, as its there you start getting the best skills for your class aswell as the SP needed for your skill enchants.
my GK can get some 11m xp/h easy, just DC and BD oop. my necro however with 2 rechargers oop will run out of mp trying to get that amount of XP/h, i can do it for a short while, but then i need to rest for mp every now and then. oh and dont forget that as im using death spike i use less MP then most other nukers.
id be intrested to know how many 83+ nukers there is compared to 83+ of other DD classes.
this post must be quoted cause it says alot
I d like to point again the vr... VR buff is the most ******ed thing that ever was created in this game. Can I pls get mp back when I nuke mobs... please please...if my ask sounds dumb for u... this is how stupid vr buff is.
meeles NEVER had any problem leveling imo not since VR buff came atleast.
also you forget something here. 1-79 is 2.1b XP, 79-80 is also 2.1b XP. so regardless who levels faster to 79 that dont really matter since its the XP speed after 79 that really matters, as its there you start getting the best skills for your class aswell as the SP needed for your skill enchants.
my GK can get some 11m xp/h easy, just DC and BD oop. my necro however with 2 rechargers oop will run out of mp trying to get that amount of XP/h, i can do it for a short while, but then i need to rest for mp every now and then. oh and dont forget that as im using death spike i use less MP then most other nukers.
id be intrested to know how many 83+ nukers there is compared to 83+ of other DD classes.
Okay you obviously dont get the point. Who ever said melee had a problem lvling? And who ever lvled to 79 fist DID matter being the lvl cap was 80. Even when the lvl cap was 75 who were the the highest lvls? Archers and mages. The last few updates have made almost all melee classes playable in PVP which was a well needed boost. With the right party set up ive seen mage parties get over 11m exp/h not in HB, so you sir are doing something wrong.
I d like to point again the vr... VR buff is the most ******ed thing that ever was created in this game. Can I pls get mp back when I nuke mobs... please please...if my ask sounds dumb for u... this is how stupid vr buff is.
Okay Id like to get my MP back from using skills in pve too plx! That means I can go around 1 shotting everything on IoP w/o having to box a buffer.
Okay you obviously dont get the point. Who ever said melee had a problem lvling? And who ever lvled to 79 fist DID matter being the lvl cap was 80.
Weren't those FoG destros (melee, VR) and people leeching from them?
Okay you obviously dont get the point. Who ever said melee had a problem lvling? And who ever lvled to 79 fist DID matter being the lvl cap was 80. Even when the lvl cap was 75 who were the the highest lvls? Archers and mages. The last few updates have made almost all melee classes playable in PVP which was a well needed boost. With the right party set up ive seen mage parties get over 11m exp/h not in HB, so you sir are doing something wrong.
this was just because 99 % of the melees were ******s and are still ******s... I did my th to 56 for 2 (about 30 hours of leveling) days (c5) and I wasnt leeching anything... it was just too boring to lvl with pressing just the right button of the mouse so I rerolled.
A small tip... get a pole get into a cata... get a double or tripple room... enjoy ur exp... for every single ******ed melee... if u are 76... get a pole go pagans it mos enjoy ur 8 % at 80 lvl per 6 hours of exping...
Just please... pretty much please... when u have no ******* clue what lineage2 is dont ******* comment with pretty false statements... get a clue first.
remove empower....? lets remove all the buffs that gives p att then huh...
vr has no mage equalent as a buff... it was just created for the ******s that were so bad on playing their melee classes...if u remember there wasnt a buff such as vr... before hundred of ******s cryed how impossible it was to lvl a melee class... when they ******* forgot there are classes such as bishop, ee and se (yes se was pretty good healer back then) that could heal.
blesses shots if I remember correct were implement to balance the mage classes cause they were to weak... I might be wrong here... I wasnt playing l2 by that time... just watching at friends monitors how they play.
this was just because 99 % of the melees were ******s and are still ******s... I did my th to 56 for 2 (about 30 hours of leveling) days (c5) and I wasnt leeching anything... it was just too boring to lvl with pressing just the right button of the mouse so I rerolled.
A small tip... get a pole get into a cata... get a double or tripple room... enjoy ur exp... for every single ******ed melee... if u are 76... get a pole go pagans it mos enjoy ur 8 % at 80 lvl per 6 hours of exping...
Just please... pretty much please... when u have no ******* clue what lineage2 is dont ******* comment with pretty false statements... get a clue first.
The same can be said to mages GET A ******* CLUE! Every mage bring there 2 recharger pets to HB then everything is ******* GOOD! Enjoy your HB exp.
The same can be said to mages GET A ******* CLUE! Every mage bring there 2 recharger pets to HB then everything is ******* GOOD! Enjoy your HB exp.
You people are rediculous, seriously.
Okay you obviously dont get the point. Who ever said melee had a problem lvling? And who ever lvled to 79 fist DID matter being the lvl cap was 80. Even when the lvl cap was 75 who were the the highest lvls? Archers and mages. The last few updates have made almost all melee classes playable in PVP which was a well needed boost. With the right party set up ive seen mage parties get over 11m exp/h not in HB, so you sir are doing something wrong.
Being 75 back then is not the same as 78 right now. The XP zones are not balanced the same way, the classes are not balanced the same way. Things are just too different.
But, please, do continue to bring up what happened 3 years ago in an attempt to justify the current imbalance. It is only making you look dumber and dumber.
The person who said their GK gets 11m per hour was talking about a solo GK with just a Doom Cryer and BD OOP. Keep it in perspective. HB parties eclipse 11M XP/Hr unless they're composed of ******ed players.
The only other place I can think of, is Dino. I've done a fair bit of AoE there, but it isn't as great as you seem to think it is. It's prolly the only place outside of HB that a 82 mage can go to, which won't have blue MOBs.
remove empower....? lets remove all the buffs that gives p att then huh...
vr has no mage equalent as a buff... it was just created for the ******s that were so bad on playing their melee classes...if u remember there wasnt a buff such as vr... before hundred of ******s cryed how impossible it was to lvl a melee class... when they ******* forgot there are classes such as bishop, ee and se (yes se was pretty good healer back then) that could heal.
blesses shots if I remember correct were implement to balance the mage classes cause they were to weak... I might be wrong here... I wasnt playing l2 by that time... just watching at friends monitors how they play.
here's what i've been saying since c1 and beyond:
make empower = effect of might. not fair that empower is such a huge boost. give pp's empower. give SE's greater empower.
vr is great as most other games have buffs and mechanics exactly like it...almost any toon in diablo 2 is toast without leech.
should be a spell that works just like osmose from final fantasy...up against a caster? steal part of his mp for 1mp cost. either that or make body to mind more balanced for the mp return and give it to all nukers and a lower level to summoners and healers.
GOSUdivine was one of the best healers of the early days of l2...he was a SE who seemed to never run oom and could, somehow, be the only healer on a 10th group that wasn't stacked and we'd all live.
bsps were implemented at the same time as ss/sps. they were just supposed to be a bigger money-sink than normal sps. i've never agreed with not having a melee counterpart. as far as mages being weak in the beginning, quite the opposite...probably half of the servers were nothing but nukers and archers just because they were just too powerful.
Being 75 back then is not the same as 78 right now. The XP zones are not balanced the same way, the classes are not balanced the same way. Things are just too different.
But, please, do continue to bring up what happened 3 years ago in an attempt to justify the current imbalance. It is only making you look dumber and dumber.
The person who said their GK gets 11m per hour was talking about a solo GK with just a Doom Cryer and BD OOP. Keep it in perspective. HB parties eclipse 11M XP/Hr unless they're composed of ******ed players.
The only other place I can think of, is Dino. I've done a fair bit of AoE there, but it isn't as great as you seem to think it is. It's prolly the only place outside of HB that a 82 mage can go to, which won't have blue MOBs.
How is it making me look more dumb? How can you justify the imbalances for every chronicle when they add in new hunting areas for higher players that don't suit everyone? YOU CANT! You do what everyone else has done through out the years. DEAL WITH IT! Just because you are a mage doesn't mean you have to exp in mage parties! If you are hunting in HB that usually means so is your clan. Join them. There are plenty of mages over 82. If they can manage, so can you.
Being 75 back then is not the same as 78 right now. The XP zones are not balanced the same way, the classes are not balanced the same way. Things are just too different.
i agree with this.
i also think that, when you first picked your class, you knew you'd be dependant on your limited mp pool to be effective.
i'm still wondering why your clan/friends don't take you to HB for 1/2 nukes per mob and mezzing. that's more than fine for any nukers i've always group with...just manage your mp well and be good company.
i do also find it extra-ordinary that nc is going to extreme ends to make this game 100% solo-able. **** near no other mmo out there is like that. eh, i like to party even if it's crap xp...and now y'all know the real reason i'm a 79 lowbie. oh...and fishing.
How is it making me look more dumb? How can you justify the imbalances for every chronicle when they add in new hunting areas for higher players that don't suit everyone? YOU CANT! You do what everyone else has done through out the years. DEAL WITH IT! Just because you are a mage doesn't mean you have to exp in mage parties! If you are hunting in HB that usually means so is your clan. Join them. There are plenty of mages over 82. If they can manage, so can you.
Off to ignore. You're not making much sense, and you're trying to turn this into a circular argument. I'm not anyone's duck on this forum. Have a nice day.
P.S. I'm adding sakonPWNZ, also, just in case that's you.
Off to ignore. You're not making much sense, and you're trying to turn this into a circular argument. I'm not anyone's duck on this forum. Have a nice day.
P.S. I'm adding sakonPWNZ, also, just in case that's you.
No thats not me, but you can add Sumie as well. That is my other account.
How is it making me look more dumb? How can you justify the imbalances for every chronicle when they add in new hunting areas for higher players that don't suit everyone? YOU CANT! You do what everyone else has done through out the years. DEAL WITH IT! Just because you are a mage doesn't mean you have to exp in mage parties! If you are hunting in HB that usually means so is your clan. Join them. There are plenty of mages over 82. If they can manage, so can you.
I know of two mages over 82 on Phoenix (the largest NA server). One I'm pretty sure botted there, and the other got powerleveled by *gasp* a titan. Do you play a mage? Are you even 80+? I can't believe there are people who have played this game so long and are so stupid to say that a mage with 2 recharges in tow is good HB XP hahahahhaa, that is just pathetic. Here is a neat little fact.... my mage with +12 hydro, full buffs + cov concentration and mystic normal hits mobs (no crit) as hard as an archer with fire and fury + cov normal hits mobs (no crit). Lets also ignore the fact the archer cits twice as much and crits twice as hard... oh, and that archer was 78 with no boss jewels. +3 bow.
make empower = effect of might. not fair that empower is such a huge boost.
you forget that nukers matk dont work same way as figthers patk. you need x^2 to dubble damage, while only a 2x is needed for dubble damage for DDs
give pp's empower. give SE's greater empower. no thanks, dont want to need more buffs that already using
another thing that imo imbalances it between nukers and DDs is that there is basicly no epics for nukers. DDs have baium and AQ to add to improve DSP, tanks and other classes relying on stunning have zaken, frint and antharas to help them. only valakas helps nukers and even then we have a much lower cap on magic crit rates compared to DDs. another thing is that DDs can reach 20-40 times crit damage (personal record is 30x) while mage crits are limited to 3x PvE and 2.5x in PvP.
for nukers to work well past 80 they need to stop increasing mdef of mobs as much as they done.
And I think you have never fought a mob in HB on a nuker. That's the whole POINT of this topic, is we hit for NOTHING on high level mobs. That being said you are right... the damage was something like on a chimera I was hitting for 1.7k-1.8k, and he was hitting for 1.6k-1.7k regular attacks. His crits were of course 9kish, and mine were 5kish. He didn't have warrior either. Did I mention my shots cost more than his? And did I mention he was shooting faster than me?
And I think you have never fought a mob in HB on a nuker. That's the whole POINT of this topic, is we hit for NOTHING on high level mobs. That being said you are right... the damage was something like on a chimera I was hitting for 1.7k-1.8k, and he was hitting for 1.6k-1.7k regular attacks. His crits were of course 9kish, and mine were 5kish. He didn't have warrior either. Did I mention my shots cost more than his? And did I mention he was shooting faster than me?
Add to this that high lvl archers can shoot without using any mp, while nukers easily can use up all their mp killing a handful of mobs (chimera=100k hp, 100k/1.8k=55 nukes, allow for some crits and say it's 30 nukes, 30 nukes x 50mp per nuke (clarity etc.)=1500 mp.
remove empower....? lets remove all the buffs that gives p att then huh...
vr has no mage equalent as a buff... it was just created for the ******s that were so bad on playing their melee classes...if u remember there wasnt a buff such as vr... before hundred of ******s cryed how impossible it was to lvl a melee class... when they ******* forgot there are classes such as bishop, ee and se (yes se was pretty good healer back then) that could heal.
blesses shots if I remember correct were implement to balance the mage classes cause they were to weak... I might be wrong here... I wasnt playing l2 by that time... just watching at friends monitors how they play.
******s that were so bad at playing their class? Pls show me how you play a melee class without taking alot of melee dmg.
Skip VR on melee toons and you will have to have each party have 3-4 bishops just to be able to keep up heals while the others sit for mp.
There are parties out there that use VR and STILL have 1-2 healers.
Add to this that high lvl archers can shoot without using any mp, while nukers easily can use up all their mp killing a handful of mobs (chimera=100k hp, 100k/1.8k=55 nukes, allow for some crits and say it's 30 nukes, 30 nukes x 50mp per nuke (clarity etc.)=1500 mp.
or be in a normal party as accent damage and mezzer and have a good time with friends?
or be in a normal party as accent damage and mezzer and have a good time with friends?
Have you ever tried being a mezzer on a nuker?
Why would you use a Nuker for that when you can use a Dominator or Doom Cryer with +++++ Dreaming Spirit (and Seals)? They get back MP on every hit, so it will not hurt their MP; and, the Casting Speed + Landrate should be acceptable.
Do you have any idea how ******ed that sounds?
An Orc Running Soul Cry with MPVR Mechanic Dishing out Drains here and there, doing some CC duties, buffing, and debuffing will have higher sustained DPS than a Nuker (which matters more than burst DPS in a long grind session) whilst offering utility a Nuker can never dream to have.
The only useful nuker in HB is a Necro, and it's cause they don't really have to throw out that much nukes to be useful. Elemental Nukers are too tunnel vision to be worth the party slot doing what you're suggesting.
Why would you use a Nuker for that when you can use a Dominator or Doom Cryer with +++++ Dreaming Spirit (and Seals)? They get back MP on every hit, so it will not hurt their MP; and, the Casting Speed + Landrate should be acceptable.
Do you have any idea how ******ed that sounds?
An Orc Running Soul Cry with MPVR Mechanic Dishing out Drains here and there, doing some CC duties, buffing, and debuffing will have higher sustained DPS than a Nuker (which matters more than burst DPS in a long grind session) whilst offering utility a Nuker can never dream to have.
The only useful nuker in HB is a Necro, and it's cause they don't really have to throw out that much nukes to be useful. Elemental Nukers are too tunnel vision to be worth the party slot doing what you're suggesting.
i guess my point was that you don't have to be in a HB party to have a great time.
You don't have to log in to have a great time. You can have great times on Ventrillo or TeamSpeak while you search the web and look at YouTube videos.
Elemental Nukers are not useful in HB parties unless it is a party constructed for Nuker AoE, which require additional boxed support in many/most cases.
You don't have to log in to have a great time. You can have great times on Ventrillo or TeamSpeak while you search the web and look at YouTube videos.
Elemental Nukers are not useful in HB parties unless it is a party constructed for Nuker AoE, which require additional boxed support in many/most cases.
but it's more fun to log in and have fun actually doing something together. teamwork in an mmo, and all, y'know?
also, just because an elemental nuker isn't the best candidate for a mezzer, doesn't mean they can't do it. that's sort of like saying an SK shouldn't be using his hate skills and pulling aggro because he's paper-thin compared to a paladin.
mezzer is the really old mmo term for designated cc. the person who is always looking outside and ahead of what you're currently fighting. cc'ing any adds and calling the next targets etc.
******s that were so bad at playing their class? Pls show me how you play a melee class without taking alot of melee dmg.
A Warlord in C1 could level just fine (actually being one of the fastest-levelling classes). With a healer in party, of course.
srsly... do u need vr when u have a full melee party... it saves some mp for sure... but lol... Once I healed with my bishop an uber bad party with no vr... it was smth like... tank, duelist, 1 archer, 1 camael (I have no clue what kind of), bd, sws, (both bd and sws were only giving songs and dances and not hitting due to boxing prophecy buffers) a cat, ee and me... and a buffer oop... not all were with a prophecie all the time due to the PP beeing boxed but I never ran our of mp...the exp session ran for about 3 hours with having no one dieing and having some fine exp on green spot in HB.
Now just see the uber bad grp I gave up... To be able to exp in the same way with a nuker grp u ll need like 4 rechargers oop and a main recharger 81 plus... uhmmm so yes...
give nukers equal exp as the melees and archers...
srsly... do u need vr when u have a full melee party... it saves some mp for sure... but lol... Once I healed with my bishop an uber bad party with no vr... it was smth like... tank, duelist, 1 archer, 1 camael (I have no clue what kind of), bd, sws, (both bd and sws were only giving songs and dances and not hitting due to boxing prophecy buffers) a cat, ee and me... and a buffer oop... not all were with a prophecie all the time due to the PP beeing boxed but I never ran our of mp...the exp session ran for about 3 hours with having no one dieing and having some fine exp on green spot in HB.
Now just see the uber bad grp I gave up... To be able to exp in the same way with a nuker grp u ll need like 4 rechargers oop and a main recharger 81 plus... uhmmm so yes...
give nukers equal exp as the melees and archers...
oop buffer but no vr? prophets are so c2. bd was probably using vr dance.
LOL 2 dance HB was so 1 month after it came out. People know how to conserve mp and have 10 song/dance for pve now (really high bd/sws can do a full 12 with clarity aug)
What does VR have to do with anything??? VR keeps the melee support at full mana while nuker support gets drained by recharges... ok... but that's only half of the problem. The other part is the damage on mobs is pathetic to melee and archers. I'm not greedy, I lived with going OOM while melee VRed to full HP for years... I just want my DD title back...
So Maya, you talk about a party with oop party buffers, boxing prophecies but not everyone having prophecies etc, and you guys did fine with you healing on ur bishop sub.
Yet when you talk about mages all of a sudden oop stuff is so bad, but melee could just invite another healer? Maybe your mage parties should invite another healer, you know like SE or EE? And maybe just maybe, stay off the mobs that have hundreds of thousands of hp?
PS. Yes I have been to HB, on a few of my chars, so no need to ask me.
am i the one who's bad at l2 for being confused or are you the one who's bad at l2 for having oop support for your nuker main but not realizing you can give VR to the rest of the group?
So Maya, you talk about a party with oop party buffers, boxing prophecies but not everyone having prophecies etc, and you guys did fine with you healing on ur bishop sub.
Yet when you talk about mages all of a sudden oop stuff is so bad, but melee could just invite another healer? Maybe your mage parties should invite another healer, you know like SE or EE? And maybe just maybe, stay off the mobs that have hundreds of thousands of hp?
PS. Yes I have been to HB, on a few of my chars, so no need to ask me.
Doom Cryer
Cardinal
Eva's Saint | Shilien Saint
Spectral Dancer
Sword Muse
Tank | DD
DD
DD
DD
Tell me... Why would they need to box a healer? You've been to HB, so I'm sure you see just as many groups as I do with Titans and Grand Khavatari's tanking as I do (maybe more, even).
If a Melee group is boxing support it's cause:
1. They could not find any live support for those spots
2. Someone is a buff baby and "wants" more than he actually "needs"
3. Someone just felt like bringing the support, just cause they could
4. Someone is Soloing/Duoing boxing multiple accounts with their own boxed support
Live DD groups do not need boxed healers and buffers in HB. The whole "what's stopping a DD group from logging in another healer" isn't even applicable.
Now, list the classes that would be in a 9 man Nuker Party for HB, assuming they will not be using any boxed buffers.
So basically Mages should just accept the fact that even if they are end-game geared and leveled they shouldn't ever be able to level in any end-game zones without boxing OOP support characters [that melees don't need] or wait a couple of updates to do so? Excuse the run on.
Sounding pretty rediculous, IMO, but seeing as how that's the way things have been working the past few years...
Please stay in Aion, hopefully you will make more sense there.
No DD group will be running with a Nuker in HB.
It's not plausible.
Nukers cannot CC well in HB. I don't know where you get this rediculous Idea from. You need a high OE Sleep/Sleeping Cloud to have a factorable landrate level-wise, and the MOBs are high M.Def.
A group will take a Necro in place of a DD (cause a Necro can actually DD in HB) because their utility is very good, but an Elemental Nuker. No. With a Cursed Man with Holy Weapon:
I will do more sustained DPS over a grind session than any Elemental Nuker in HB, in a DD group. I can do this, while providing a damage boost for all DDs in the party, being more surviveable, and being able to land debuffs (like CC skills) at a decent rate (Curse Gloom, Arcane Power, OE'd skills). I can also decrease the damage output of MOBs on group members, Stun MOBs, etc.
I can do all this, without nuking, without carrying MP pots on me, and without crippling the group the way an Elemental Nuker will.
Yes, a Necro is good in a group, and I know people like to call them nukers (I don't).
Spellsinger, Spellhowler, and Sorcerer are not good in Hellbound. They aren't even viable candidates for a spot in that group setup.
Personally I don't know why Maya would cry about Necros in Hellbound. They are fine. The Elemental Nukers are far from fine. Groups aren't even large enough to carry the support nukers need in a party, unless you have some fabulously high level/extremely well geared nukers to level with there - which brings us back to the point Gnatayle made earlier in the thread.
I don't see the long-term viability of that group compared with melee parties, considering people AoE those MOBs with Titans solo/duo boxing characters in or out of party (9 man or less).
I'll prolly edit in what I mean by that tomorrow if I can remember. It's 2am; almost time for me to go to bed :P
I never - personally - said we needed to remove VR.
VR is not needed if you know how to play the game in an XP group.
The thread is about content balance, and at the moment there is little of that.
I doubt that mage group mentioned above can even compete with the uptime of a melee party (never mind those MOBs can be poled down by a buffed Titan) if they do not have more/extra support (OOP). I would personally have to see it for myself.
problem for the nukers aint so much the MP usage but rather the heavy increased mdef on mobs 78+, it seems imo to be much more compared to pdef for physical DDs.
THANK YOU Xalya... L2 has always been unbalanced... and nuker groups have always sucked. But when you nerf something that already sucked people start to get mad...
Can perfectly AoE green spot, confirmed and i saw it. Not as good as a melee one, but can AoE there.
this is true but what lvl ee and nukers, what kind of overenchant and gear do u need? how many bresses per hour? its way too more than just a random melee grp... dont u think... and this is the whole thread about.
u need top nuker grp without a class and a character that is bad to do a bit more than fine.
u need a lame melee grp of 9 ppl that can use 6x characters to do fine.
isnt this ... stupid?
Personally I don't know why Maya would cry about Necros in Hellbound. They are fine. The Elemental Nukers are far from fine. Groups aren't even large enough to carry the support nukers need in a party, unless you have some fabulously high level/extremely well geared nukers to level with there - which brings us back to the point Gnatayle made earlier in the thread.
It is simple dude. First of all SE removed me out of melee grps. Stigma > Curse of Abyss. Extra mp is better than nerfed Anchor and Doom.
Anchor nerf is pushing me out of the archer grps... Yes they still like Abyss cause it adds quete much dmg for archers, but the nerfed Anchor is making them die or kite more than they have to and that is way less exp for the whole grp.
Nerfed reuse on debuff is playing a huge role in taking necro way less in gracia. I cant complain for lacking grps... I was the first mage on Hindemith on HB and since then I have never lacked any HB grp. The problem is that back in the days ppl do needed me for crowd control... now they just take me because it is me as a person not the class they need... which is... something I dont like.
Last... necro is a mage debuffer (nuker with not very good dmg but good debuffs and then it is a summoner after that) and its strongest debuff remains gloom. Also necro gains more from nuker kind buffs so it means that this class should be mainly played in nuker grps... Someone in NCsoft developers team doesnt think so... Beside gloom and mass gloom we cant do more in the latest released content with our class in mage grps. We have no AoE potential beside mass gloom because corspe burst is just a lol, we have no single target option because death spike and vamp claw in HB is just lol... So u have to find melee or archer grp which leads to step 1 and 2 again... and to this endlest cycle...
Edit:Oh I forgot the main reason... Its the constant parties. You know these parties that are organized and its members play in the same time every day and exp, pvp and raid always with one and the same members... So If I am supposed to go with melees or archers to exp... This means if I join such a const grp I ll need to stick with it and play with it for every raid and pvp... I havent met a necro doing epic raids and mass pvps within melee or archer grp... Nor I know about grps wasting extra support or DD for a necro in a melee or archer pvp grp...
Sorry for the pretty bad Ingrish but I just woke up.
u need a lame melee grp of 9 ppl that can use 6x characters to do fine.
isnt this ... stupid?
yes. openly cheating and having <78 toons in HB is stupid.
I cant complain for lacking grps... I was the first mage on Hindemith on HB and since then I have never lacked any HB grp. The problem is that back in the days ppl do needed me for crowd control... now they just take me because it is me as a person not the class they need... which is... something I dont like.
so...you're saying that you want people to use you for your class and not care about the person behind the toon? if your clan is on sayha, i'd like to meet them since most clans only care about what your toon brings to the table...nice to hear about a clan that cares about the person behind the toon, for once.
serelina, I think maya means that you can bring support subs to HB once they have the quest finished on main class. Not some uber glitch or anything.
yes but it's going against the set rules of the game and it is, in fact, a loophole in the programming. i don't mean to sound like whatever-his-name-is about cheating...but it is.
still, it's always been my personal opinion that there shouldn't be level restrictions on zones unless they're instanced.
Stigma made me pretty mad. Most melee groups had room for 1-2 leechers... those spots are now taken by SEs. I'm glad they finally got a group... but that's 1 class out of like 5-7 that need help...
it's not mages that have a problem it's NC forming l33t hunting areas without any regards to the other half the toons in game that need to hunt there
if NC added a similar area to HB with lower mdef mobs you nukers would prolly just go back to crying about how they nerfed sleep/nuke and aura burn spam
Thats because ncsoft never figured out how to nerf skills correctly.
Those skills should of remained the same "pre-nerf" as b4 for pve &
nerfed " given a diff set of paramaters" for use in pvp.
Yes, that's why I bring up often in discussions with clannies about how to "fix" the game. It would help a lot if the game would distinguish between pve and pvp for damage output. Then you could have classes which are powerful in pve without being completely overpowered in pvp, and others which are very powerful in pvp without being able to take down raid bosses in seconds. I have nothing against high lvl, well-equipped people one-shotting single hp mobs, but pvp SHOULD last longer than one or two seconds. A general pvp damage reduction would be nice (of course that would then need further balancing for classes who need lots of mp for their skills, so that they do not simply run out of mp without killing anybody).
Yes, that's why I bring up often in discussions with clannies about how to "fix" the game. It would help a lot if the game would distinguish between pve and pvp for damage output. Then you could have classes which are powerful in pve without being completely overpowered in pvp, and others which are very powerful in pvp without being able to take down raid bosses in seconds. I have nothing against high lvl, well-equipped people one-shotting single hp mobs, but pvp SHOULD last longer than one or two seconds. A general pvp damage reduction would be nice (of course that would then need further balancing for classes who need lots of mp for their skills, so that they do not simply run out of mp without killing anybody).
pretty sure it already does distinguish between pve and pvp. any SA above b grade adds 5% extra damage in pvp. put fame on the weapon...more extra pvp damage. throw up a straight debuff on a mob, no problem...throw up a straight debuff on another player who isn't flagged and there's a problem.
the real problem is that the stats just haven't kept nearly as balanced as they started out. give tanks 3-5k more p.def and 2-3k more m.def and take away 200 or so p.atk, re-work the mage damage formulae so that they don't take the square root of the m.atk...that'd also make the magic power SA worth it. stuff like that will eventually balance the classes out to where there's no problems. the difficulty comes in where you have to scale the actual mob stats accordingly and nc is just too lazy to do that.
an alternative would be to have two seperate stats for everything when the client is doing the calculations...one for pve and one for pvp. i think that nc is probably too lazy to do that, too.
yes. openly cheating and having <78 toons in HB is stupid.
It is not about the how u call it open cheating... it is about... that u dont need uber supports like a mage grp needs...
so...you're saying that you want people to use you for your class and not care about the person behind the toon? if your clan is on sayha, i'd like to meet them since most clans only care about what your toon brings to the table...nice to hear about a clan that cares about the person behind the toon, for once.
its just the fact that I ve been a nice with the most ppl in clan and always helped em to get gear and grps and an ex co-leader in the clan I am.
about fixes... its just to easy... u dont even have to think about it...
pretty sure it already does distinguish between pve and pvp. any SA above b grade adds 5% extra damage in pvp. put fame on the weapon...more extra pvp damage. throw up a straight debuff on a mob, no problem...throw up a straight debuff on another player who isn't flagged and there's a problem.
the real problem is that the stats just haven't kept nearly as balanced as they started out. give tanks 3-5k more p.def and 2-3k more m.def and take away 200 or so p.atk, re-work the mage damage formulae so that they don't take the square root of the m.atk...that'd also make the magic power SA worth it. stuff like that will eventually balance the classes out to where there's no problems. the difficulty comes in where you have to scale the actual mob stats accordingly and nc is just too lazy to do that.
an alternative would be to have two seperate stats for everything when the client is doing the calculations...one for pve and one for pvp. i think that nc is probably too lazy to do that, too.
Nevermind, Ignored. Not worth the response...
the real problem is that the stats just haven't kept nearly as balanced as they started out. give tanks 3-5k more p.def and 2-3k more m.def and take away 200 or so p.atk, re-work the mage damage formulae so that they don't take the square root of the m.atk...that'd also make the magic power SA worth it. stuff like that will eventually balance the classes out to where there's no problems. the difficulty comes in where you have to scale the actual mob stats accordingly and nc is just too lazy to do that.
an alternative would be to have two seperate stats for everything when the client is doing the calculations...one for pve and one for pvp. i think that nc is probably too lazy to do that, too.
That's as much work as designing a new game from scratch. They would be ****ing ******ed if they start doing that NOW.
actually, i've been told i'm a superb player...i just play differently than most people.
i don't use shots when i solo since there's no way to use them and still make money. i have a very high level fenrir that i use pet shots with and i xp in the proper zones. my normal haunt is pretty predictable if you consider tank and fenrir.
i've been playing differently than most people since day 1. call me a bad player if you want but i've never cheated in any way, shape, or form to level or afford gear or shots. i'd say that qualifies me as a pretty decent player in my own right.
actually, i've been told i'm a superb player...i just play differently than most people.
i don't use shots when i solo since there's no way to use them and still make money.
bro, if you are superb, you should've known that there are tons of places to exp with shots and still earn money.
I'm 83 - and I'm earning around 5-7mil a day using S shots.
When I was 40-78 I earned in general about 70mil in adena from exping, excluding drops. So plz.... hm :) Don't say, that this is impossible. It just requires some REAL skills of playing, some GOOD combination of weapon\armor\dyes and, of course, class and exping zone.
i.e. if you are a magy, yes, you won't be able to earn money while exping. But if you are ANY kind of mele... = you'll earn millions. Even billions (my example).
considering i'm a part-time player and i have full masterwork IC, 150 holy fb w/focus, full tat set, top gear for any pet, and every single one of my alts are geared in non-common, i'd say i fit in with your example of knowing how to make money while properly xp'ing.
besides, it just makes economical sense to let my wolf spend 50 adena per hit when he has 2600 p.atk instead of me spending 450 per hit when i have 960 p.atk.
considering i'm a part-time player and i have full masterwork IC, 150 holy fb w/focus, full tat set, top gear for any pet, and every single one of my alts are geared in non-common, i'd say i fit in with your example of knowing how to make money while properly xp'ing.
besides, it just makes economical sense to let my wolf spend 50 adena per hit when he has 2600 p.atk instead of me spending 450 per hit when i have 960 p.atk.
great, but if I exp with golem (crystals plus expensive shots) I earn more anyway, due to the fact that I sell my drops. SO....well.....why not exp with shots + beast shots?
actually, i've been told i'm a superb player...i just play differently than most people.
i don't use shots when i solo since there's no way to use them and still make money. i have a very high level fenrir that i use pet shots with and i xp in the proper zones. my normal haunt is pretty predictable if you consider tank and fenrir.
i've been playing differently than most people since day 1. call me a bad player if you want but i've never cheated in any way, shape, or form to level or afford gear or shots. i'd say that qualifies me as a pretty decent player in my own right.
Being legit doesn't make you a decent player, it makes you a legit player. One has nothing to do with the other.
And XPing without shots is one of the dumbest things I've heard.
Being legit doesn't make you a decent player, it makes you a legit player. One has nothing to do with the other.
And XPing without shots is one of the dumbest things I've heard.
Do you XP without buffs, too?
There are ways to make money spamming shots. L2P.
your satire never ceases to amaze me with how witless it truly is.
woon, my best drop ever was a sages rag that i got right before common gear started dropping. lucky you that you don't have to work nearly as hard as most other people to make money with all your drops. weeks down under GC, seeing countless others get the treasure chest, and i've still yet to get one of my own...stole a bot's but it didn't drop anything.
also, i guess not using shots doesn't bother me so much because i went three chronicles with no shots (summoner main back then) until c4. i know just how much of an adena sink shots really are. oh and besides raids, most social korean players only carry a thousand or so shots with them and only use them for emergencies.
just face it...we're two different types of players, both good in their own way. i'm great at making money patiently with guaranteed returns. y'all seem to be great at internet trash-talking so i'm assuming you're in a pvp clan which makes you decent enough at some things. thanks goes to smittie again for realizing that there can be a viable difference.
Making money is time consuming. For example I was never good in making money because I never spend more than 10 mins per day for trades. When I need money I just sit for a week and trade. So ur patience is just a time u consume for making money.
Making money is time consuming. For example I was never good in making money because I never spend more than 10 mins per day for trades. When I need money I just sit for a week and trade. So ur patience is just a time u consume for making money.
i can xp for 4 hours straight on just pet shots, no downtime, and make a few million in the process. no sitting or downtime required. not to mention a fenrir that is approaching 80 is worth quite a bit, i'm told.
your satire never ceases to amaze me with how witless it truly is.
woon, my best drop ever was a sages rag that i got right before common gear started dropping. lucky you that you don't have to work nearly as hard as most other people to make money with all your drops. weeks down under GC, seeing countless others get the treasure chest, and i've still yet to get one of my own...stole a bot's but it didn't drop anything.
also, i guess not using shots doesn't bother me so much because i went three chronicles with no shots (summoner main back then) until c4. i know just how much of an adena sink shots really are. oh and besides raids, most social korean players only carry a thousand or so shots with them and only use them for emergencies.
just face it...we're two different types of players, both good in their own way. i'm great at making money patiently with guaranteed returns. y'all seem to be great at internet trash-talking so i'm assuming you're in a pvp clan which makes you decent enough at some things. thanks goes to smittie again for realizing that there can be a viable difference.
Satire? Seriously?
Maybe sarcasm was more appropriate.
I didn't say you WERE NOT a good player. I just said being legit has nothign to do with being good. There are botters that know how to play the game quite well (better than most legits I know, and it has nothing to do with their gear/level advantage).
Not spamming shots to make money is stupid. Time is money, and you're wasting lots of it.
Lol, /care about wolf. The wolf makes you kill faster, but the XP penalty from having it out more than negates the killspeed advantage. Pets that don't inherit attribute resist are useless in End-Game XP zones. Have fun having it 2-3 shot by MOB AoEs/Agro and getting rezed every 5 minutes there.
Prolly 79 still leveling in Varka (or IoP, all the cool kids think it's an economic utopia!)... Make friends and level in other places. You can make more than enough money spamming shots. I make money in groups spamming shots, Cursed Bones, Beast Soulshots, and dozens of C Cry per buffround. It's not difficult for a tank. It's not like you have a 3 dimensional function in a party, anyways...
actually, i've been told i'm a superb player...i just play differently than most people.
i don't use shots when i solo since there's no way to use them and still make money. i have a very high level fenrir that i use pet shots with and i xp in the proper zones. my normal haunt is pretty predictable if you consider tank and fenrir.
i've been playing differently than most people since day 1. call me a bad player if you want but i've never cheated in any way, shape, or form to level or afford gear or shots. i'd say that qualifies me as a pretty decent player in my own right.
You can make money while using shots. you just need to kill the right mobs
besides, it just makes economical sense to let my wolf spend 50 adena per hit when he has 2600 p.atk instead of me spending 450 per hit when i have 960 p.atk.
I didn't say you WERE NOT a good player. I just said being legit has nothign to do with being good. There are botters that know how to play the game quite well (better than most legits I know, and it has nothing to do with their gear/level advantage).
Not spamming shots to make money is stupid. Time is money, and you're wasting lots of it.
Lol, /care about wolf. The wolf makes you kill faster, but the XP penalty from having it out more than negates the killspeed advantage. Pets that don't inherit attribute resist are useless in End-Game XP zones. Have fun having it 2-3 shot by MOB AoEs/Agro and getting rezed every 5 minutes there.
Prolly 79 still leveling in Varka (or IoP, all the cool kids think it's an economic utopia!)... Make friends and level in other places. You can make more than enough money spamming shots. I make money in groups spamming shots, Cursed Bones, Beast Soulshots, and dozens of C Cry per buffround. It's not difficult for a tank. It's not like you have a 3 dimensional function in a party, anyways...
Try it before you diss it tren, clannies lvl 79 wolf was able to tank mobs in hellbound, might have just been the easy front mobs though, not sure.
Try it before you diss it tren, clannies lvl 79 wolf was able to tank mobs in hellbound, might have just been the easy front mobs though, not sure.
wolf has more p.def than robes and some leather armor toons. still not as robust as a summon since they've got less hp but they're still easily capable of taking a few hits. actually tanking even the front mobs in HB, though...not sure, i wouldn't try it just based on how hard they hit me when i have almost 3k p.def.
As a Paladin, having a wolf is a must... I am not sure about the other tanks as I dont play them, regardless how hard my Fenrir hits the mobs, it never get hit, because the tank is doing his main job... tanking.
The exp the wolf would take is minimal compared to how fast you kill mobs, so please stop with the exp thing... you dont really need soulshots as a tank... crappy p. attack so why bother... better buy them for the Fenrir... to do some nasty dmg...
I can solo with 0 downtime killing green/whites with my Fenrir, and every time I hit a mob I aggro them, since I know my Fenrir would out damage me bad since the begining.
The exp it takes with or without really is not noticeable at vit 0...
The reduction to downtime its very noticeable if you use it.
Having a Fenrir as a Tank is like having another set of hands holding an additional weapon for exp/adena. But you do need some kind of tank or good damage dealer that outdamage the Fenrir otherwise is may be not so good to have it because of its defense.
About buffs? Just use potions and go to herb places... no buffer need...
Ofcourse for other classes having a Fenrir may not be so beneficial.
Try it before you diss it tren, clannies lvl 79 wolf was able to tank mobs in hellbound, might have just been the easy front mobs though, not sure.
It was most likely the easy MOBs at the front. Healing a pet tanking Junior MOBs is enough to make any EE or Bishop sweat.
wolf has more p.def than robes and some leather armor toons. still not as robust as a summon since they've got less hp but they're still easily capable of taking a few hits. actually tanking even the front mobs in HB, though...not sure, i wouldn't try it just based on how hard they hit me when i have almost 3k p.def.
HB MOBs (Juniors) can 3 shot a pet if they crit a hit, maybe even 2 shot it.
Summon Dark Panther is a class skill, not a tradeable pet. Even a DA can use a Great Wolf if they don't feel like managing the timer and crystal cost. So can any other class, even me :P
Summon Dark Panther is a class skill, not a tradeable pet. Even a DA can use a Great Wolf if they don't feel like managing the timer and crystal cost. So can any other class, even me :P
that really had nothing to do with the conversation, captain obvious. ;)
precisely. saying a TK/paladin shouldn't have a wolf is like saying a DA shouldn't use his panther when solo.
Paladins don't need a pet to solo. I've seen them keep entire rooms in MOS basically clear with lethal skill.
If you want to level at a decent pace, and make money while not dumbing you character down, you should try to make more friends and party in areas that are more appropriate for your level.
I can see why that could be difficult for you, though.
I think that is also contributing to your money issues (i.e. I XP with shots cause I cannot make money soloing when spamming them).
So many "solo" places become filled with light blue MOBs at 78+ that the only place I can think of soloing is the back of Silent Valley, which is horrible for a tank, especially when you factor in Fenrir XP drain. You've already counted out most other places. Have fun. My boxed buffers will enjoy outleveling you soon.
as a TK that came into it's inception in c1...do you really think i play this game to be high level and pvp?
i just enjoy the friendships i make with people like you.
I think there are few people who don't enjoy socializing in MMORPGs. I'd say a huge majority of them play for the social aspects of the game (which includes PvP).
It becomes hard to "hang out" with your friends in game when all the MOBs you XP on are blue to them, or require them to kill 15 to get 0.01% XP :P
You may right about the end-game areas, however how you test a tank 79+ using a high level Fenrir in such areas? or its just speculation and theories about what could happen?
Any class can use a Fenrir, however the paladin/tank is the one of the few that benefits the most from using one when solo.
The fenrir is not suppose to tank, is a dd... if you dont have a tank in the party while using a Fenrir you would not understand it.
Lets check:
A Fenrir is going to take about 35% of 100% as in exchange to have 0 downtime prior 79, not sit at all, unless you dont know how to play a tank at all.
Its going to add about 1400+ dmg deal per mob... and sometimes gets close to dmg deal by an Archer level 7x using not skills.
You are going end up killing the same mob with a Fenrir at 2x-3x times faster...
You are going to end up having the full drop for yourself, no sharing involve...
It would not aggro if you know how to really play a tank...
Rarely would need a heal, and voila a Paladin has a heal skill that trust me it works in pets really good when needed.
Now does 2x-3x times killing faster+0 downtime+whole drop for yourself < or > than the Fenrir food + 35% exp it would take is up to you.
The more I see it, really not using it would be a bad choice imo.
Now talking about a Party?
Everybody should use a Fenrir... I mean every single element of the Party, even the healers, just make sure one of the party is a tank and you rarely would need to heal any Fenrir at all =D. And you would see the big difference of not using it or using it.
i think i answered this thread before. let back track, since beta to the chronicle before HB released, everyone complaint about mages being the best pve and melee suckkkkkkkkkkkkks during that time at least in speed vs exps rate.
i dont think it is warrior class that most people bring and choose to have for HB right? isnt it Rogue? poor warrior get pick on for no reasons?
There are more benifits to having a fenrir than just using them on a tank.
Ive used half of the bday buff on my secondary WC.
He started at lvl 70, with oop 77 Eva Saint and 78 Hierophant, and a fully geared 77 Fenrir.
With that he can kill one of the rooms off the 2nd noble port in AL, wearing +4 dama tallum and maj light.
So far he is 72, and I can hopefully reach 73 or even 74 before he runs out of bday buff and vit.
The benifits of having a too high wolf are enormous.
My hierophant did a similar thing with her bday buff, used 55 fenrir from 40 on SE sub and swapped for 73 fenrir at 54. She went up to 60 before she ran out of vit, and never smacked a mob (she sure put Stigma of Shilen on each and every one of them though :D )
There are more benifits to having a fenrir than just using them on a tank.
Ive used half of the bday buff on my secondary WC.
He started at lvl 70, with oop 77 Eva Saint and 78 Hierophant, and a fully geared 77 Fenrir.
With that he can kill one of the rooms off the 2nd noble port in AL, wearing +4 dama tallum and maj light.
So far he is 72, and I can hopefully reach 73 or even 74 before he runs out of bday buff and vit.
The benifits of having a too high wolf are enormous.
My hierophant did a similar thing with her bday buff, used 55 fenrir from 40 on SE sub and swapped for 73 fenrir at 54. She went up to 60 before she ran out of vit, and never smacked a mob (she sure put Stigma of Shilen on each and every one of them though :D )
Thats right,
Thats why I used my Fenrir in every single char that I have... not using it would be plain stupid...
I make the example of the tank as the discussion was going that way.
And yeah with a WC its performance its much better... I test it with a WC 7x and I can see why the Fenrir is a must for that class as well, it helps powerlevel so much.