I would like to see NC merge all the servers down to two. One Euro and one US. It would certainly shake things up and breath some life back into PvP as well as the Market.
Don't be afraid of the potential competition for whatever position you have on your current server. That is what the game is all about. Besides, wouldn't it be a more significant accomplishment if you still obtained it even against the whole world?
Disclaimer and preemptive troll prevention:
The opinions stated above do not necessarily reflect that of this poster or his keyboard. I have no disillusions that this post will make any difference to NC Soft and I have little doubt that it will get flamed but there it is. Yes, I also did a forum search and only found posts about merging one server with another, not all together.
I would like to see NC merge all the servers down to two. One Euro and one US. It would certainly shake things up and breath some life back into PvP as well as the Market.
Don't be afraid of the potential competition for whatever position you have on your current server. That is what the game is all about. Besides, wouldn't it be a more significant accomplishment if you still obtained it even against the whole world?
Disclaimer and preemptive troll prevention:
The opinions stated above do not necessarily reflect that of this poster or his keyboard. I have no disillusions that this post will make any difference to NC Soft and I have little doubt that it will get flamed but there it is. Yes, I also did a forum search and only found posts about merging one server with another, not all together.
Kraig
So what you couldent post that idea in another post?
you actually used search and still fail.
I would like to see NC merge all the servers down to two. One Euro and one US. It would certainly shake things up and breath some life back into PvP as well as the Market.
I would like to see all the L2 servers closed. It will move more people back to RL than your suggestion.
I don't understand the constant drumbeat for server merges. NCSoft provides server transfers, send yourself to a more populated server and leave me and my friends out of it.
Note to NCSoft (not that it matters one bit): Another server merger and I will be gone.
I like my world the way it is, please quit trying to impose your idea of 'fun' onto me.
But your idea of fun is sitting on the forums...why even comment on something to do with the actual game?
Fact is anyone who doesn't want merges is just afraid of change or is just carebear and afraid of PvP. They enjoy the stagnant style of play that goes on on most servers and are scared that they might have to try to succeed again....god forbid. But thats cool. Let L2 die in the wake of Aion. No skin off my nose. Just biding time till GW2 anyway.
But your idea of fun is sitting on the forums...why even comment on something to do with the actual game?
Fact is anyone who doesn't want merges is just afraid of change or is just carebear and afraid of PvP. They enjoy the stagnant style of play that goes on on most servers and are scared that they might have to try to succeed again....god forbid. But thats cool. Let L2 die in the wake of Aion. No skin off my nose. Just biding time till GW2 anyway.
Flame on Johnny Blaze...
funny how you seem to know the "Facts". Looser
transfer your loose bottom self to somewhere else. You have nothing to loose, unlike other players and clans on the servers here now.
go away and come back when you have a new thought. these old one just make the forums more and more worthless.
funny how you seem to know the "Facts". Looser
transfer your loose bottom self to somewhere else. You have nothing to loose, unlike other players and clans on the servers here now.
go away and come back when you have a new thought. these old one just make the forums more and more worthless.
You just made my point, "you have nothing to lose". Your afraid of a merge because your afraid that you might have to actually WORK to keep what you have. Thanks for making things so easy.
I would like to see NC merge all the servers down to two. One Euro and one US. It would certainly shake things up and breath some life back into PvP as well as the Market.
Don't be afraid of the potential competition for whatever position you have on your current server. That is what the game is all about. Besides, wouldn't it be a more significant accomplishment if you still obtained it even against the whole world?
Disclaimer and preemptive troll prevention:
The opinions stated above do not necessarily reflect that of this poster or his keyboard. I have no disillusions that this post will make any difference to NC Soft and I have little doubt that it will get flamed but there it is. Yes, I also did a forum search and only found posts about merging one server with another, not all together.
Kraig
The disclaimer made me laugh! If the opinions stated don't reflect your opinion--then whose opinion DO they reflect?
Anyway-this dead horse has been beaten a million times. Go back to WoW or Aion--we don't come on your forums and post stupid crap so please return the courtesy.
Whether it continues to be posted roughly every 4 hours or is never posted again--NCSoft will combine servers (or not) based on their whims and needs. The former merges had nothing to do with customer opinion and it's not logical that future ones will either.
BTW-in your almost 1 month of L2 play, how certain are you that 5000 players logging into one server would be heaven and solve ALL problems?
It's a ridiculous conclusion and not supported by facts. Again, we've done the mergers. They changed NOTHING. Doing them again will probably have the SAME outcome--nothing substantial.
Personally? Couldn't care either way if they merge or don't. I'm also absolutely certain that my opinion (and yours) will have ZERO impact on whether they happen.
Thanks for sharing!
The disclaimer made me laugh! If the opinions stated don't reflect your opinion--then whose opinion DO they reflect? No ones, or everyone's, or just mine for the moment. I'm a classic devil's advocate and I was bored this morning.
Anyway-this dead horse has been beaten a million times. Go back to WoW or Aion--we don't come on your forums and post stupid crap so please return the courtesy. I'm actively playing L2 and not WoW, Aion, or any other MMO.
Whether it continues to be posted roughly every 4 hours or is never posted again--NCSoft will combine servers (or not) based on their whims and needs. The former merges had nothing to do with customer opinion and it's not logical that future ones will either. I covered that in the disclaimer.
BTW-in your almost 1 month of L2 play, how certain are you that 5000 players logging into one server would be heaven and solve ALL problems?
It's a ridiculous conclusion and not supported by facts. Again, we've done the mergers. They changed NOTHING. Doing them again will probably have the SAME outcome--nothing substantial. I've been playing since Chronicle 2 I just never made a forum name on my 2nd account and it's been so long since I posted here I can't find my info for the original.
I believe that the reason the merge did little or nothing the first time is that it was too little too late.
Personally? Couldn't care either way if they merge or don't. I'm also absolutely certain that my opinion (and yours) will have ZERO impact on whether they happen.
Thanks for sharing!Covered that in the disclaimer too.
If people wanted only one european server and one american server they would play in only 1 server (european or american).
The proof that, the majority of the player-base, don`t want that, is that people dont leave their servers and join a single server for the sake of a "more alive game".
If you defend only 2 servers, try to decide what server you want to play, and try convince other people to transfer to that server, and each player would abandon (or not) his previous server and join the only populated american or european server ...
But your idea of fun is sitting on the forums...why even comment on something to do with the actual game?
Fact is anyone who doesn't want merges is just afraid of change or is just carebear and afraid of PvP. They enjoy the stagnant style of play that goes on on most servers and are scared that they might have to try to succeed again....god forbid. But thats cool. Let L2 die in the wake of Aion. No skin off my nose. Just biding time till GW2 anyway.
Flame on Johnny Blaze...
I prefer an empty server than a full server. Why? Because there are less bots running around that are taking good grinding spots.
I don't care if you are bored and don't have anyone to kill, I don't care if you botted up to 80+ to become the strongest ones on the server and now are to strong to fight the ones that are left on the server. If you want to go to a more popular server then use the **** server transfer service and please don't cry that you can't move all your gear or adena because if you are like 85-95% of those that only plays for PvP then you haven't done a single thing to earn your gear anyways...not to mention your character.
You just made my point, "you have nothing to lose". Your afraid of a merge because your afraid that you might have to actually WORK to keep what you have. Thanks for making things so easy.
I have a clan hall that I don't want to loose, but I think it would be funny as hell to end up with a top clan hall in Goddard because of this move and edge out some top level 10 clan.
I have a lot to loose, what do you have to loose one would ask, nothing becuase you are a scrub and just want to screw around with no care to what others have invested in their servers and the game.
So we combine > 4 server into one, that is a lot of clans who lose their clan halls. I would think that is a lot to loose, oh wait, you have nothing so the pain of others mean nothing to you.
You just made my point, "you have nothing to lose". Your afraid of a merge because your afraid that you might have to actually WORK to keep what you have.
Not everyone has to actually work to keep what they have. Those who don't are more inclined to be pro-merge. Nothing new here.
But your idea of fun is sitting on the forums...why even comment on something to do with the actual game?
Fact is anyone who doesn't want merges is just afraid of change or is just carebear and afraid of PvP. They enjoy the stagnant style of play that goes on on most servers and are scared that they might have to try to succeed again....god forbid. But thats cool. Let L2 die in the wake of Aion. No skin off my nose. Just biding time till GW2 anyway.
Flame on Johnny Blaze...
How in the world do you know what my idea of fun really is? What makes you think that 'sitting on the forums' is my idea of fun? Are you omniscient?
What gives you the right to state, as a fact, your supposition that I am afraid of change? Or that I am a "carebare?" Perhaps even more relevant, why are you the one to judge whether or not being a "carebare" is a good thing or a bad thing? If someone's carebare style of play is fun for them, what makes it worse than your style of play? Or if you were right that my style is "stagnent," why is that bad? If I unwind at the end of a work day by killing mobs for 90 minutes, what is wrong with that and who are you to criticize me for doing that?
One of my clannies is a supervisor of air traffic controllers in the LA area, a very stressful job, and he likes to kill mobs to unwind and relax...why do you criticize that style because it is different from yours? Is everyone who is different from you automatically worse than you? Has your life experience been so limited that you cannot understand how people are different from you?
I am sorry, Mr. OP, but your suppositions that others are inferior and ought to change to conform to your style of 'fun' is absurd. One of the great things about L2 is that players have the ability to play like they want to...roleplay, pvp, pve, economic gain, silliness...whatever we want. Your idea of conformity is worthy of smallminded tyrants.
But, apart from all that, I hope you have a very nice day and that your dream girl falls in love with you today!
Mergers will happen when the beancounters decide that money in each month doesn't justify x servers it justifies y servers. They won't happen because you think it will be better for the game, nor will they be avoided cause random carebear clan doesn't want to lose its gludin clan hall. Deal with it.
PS 1 Euro 1 NA is too few for the current population, probably 2 each is more realistic.
How in the world do you know what my idea of fun really is? What makes you think that 'sitting on the forums' is my idea of fun? Are you omniscient?
What gives you the right to state, as a fact, your supposition that I am afraid of change? Or that I am a "carebare?" Perhaps even more relevant, why are you the one to judge whether or not being a "carebare" is a good thing or a bad thing? If someone's carebare style of play is fun for them, what makes it worse than your style of play? Or if you were right that my style is "stagnent," why is that bad? If I unwind at the end of a work day by killing mobs for 90 minutes, what is wrong with that and who are you to criticize me for doing that?
One of my clannies is a supervisor of air traffic controllers in the LA area, a very stressful job, and he likes to kill mobs to unwind and relax...why do you criticize that style because it is different from yours? Is everyone who is different from you automatically worse than you? Has your life experience been so limited that you cannot understand how people are different from you?
I am sorry, Mr. OP, but your suppositions that others are inferior and ought to change to conform to your style of 'fun' is absurd. One of the great things about L2 is that players have the ability to play like they want to...roleplay, pvp, pve, economic gain, silliness...whatever we want. Your idea of conformity is worthy of smallminded tyrants.
But, apart from all that, I hope you have a very nice day and that your dream girl falls in love with you today!
Mergers will happen when the beancounters decide that money in each month doesn't justify x servers it justifies y servers. They won't happen because you think it will be better for the game, nor will they be avoided cause random carebear clan doesn't want to lose its gludin clan hall. Deal with it.
PS 1 Euro 1 NA is too few for the current population, probably 2 each is more realistic.
What about those PvE clans that managed to save up enough adena to buy a CH in Giran, Aden, Rune or Goddard?
oh wait...I forgot...they are PvE clans and doesn't deserve those clan halls....they are specialy reserved for clans that has 50%+ bots in them that farms adena for them 24/7 and not for some legit clan that has saved up adena for many months to be able to get one.
PvE = Carebear = the reason why PvP players bot since they don't want to be "carebears".
What about those PvE clans that managed to save up enough adena to buy a CH in Giran, Aden, Rune or Goddard?
oh wait...I forgot...they are PvE clans and doesn't deserve those clan halls....they are specialy reserved for clans that has 50%+ bots in them that farms adena for them 24/7 and not for some legit clan that has saved up adena for many months to be able to get one.
PvE = Carebear = the reason why PvP players bot since they don't want to be "carebears".
login to the merged server and buy a new CH jeez ... you get compensated for whatever you paid for your ch, you don't lose adena. Oh no, I know, you can't because everybody else is a bot and they will login and bid quicker than you. Of course.
PS you object to people calling you carebear, yet you take it upon yourself to decide everybody that's high level is a bot. Spot the duplicity in your attitude?
PPS in August I was 84 lvl, right now I m 85, 12% and that was done playing about 3-4 hours a day. The fact YOU can't do that doesn't make me a bot, it just makes you inept.
login to the merged server and buy a new CH jeez ... you get compensated for whatever you paid for your ch, you don't lose adena. Oh no, I know, you can't because everybody else is a bot and they will login and bid quicker than you. Of course.
PS you object to people calling you carebear, yet you take it upon yourself to decide everybody that's high level is a bot. Spot the duplicity in your attitude?
PPS in August I was 84 lvl, right now I m 85, 12% and that was done playing about 3-4 hours a day. The fact YOU can't do that doesn't make me a bot, it just makes you inept.
Not everyone got the adena on the previous merge, only that that bought the CH during the last 30 days or something and even not all of them got the adena aither because of some problems.
And no I don't say that everyone higher than me is a bot, but I say that many of them are bots. The reason I say that is because basicly every PvP clan on Aria got chars that was botted up from lvl 1 to 80 something before being put in the clan...I have seen them in bot trains in catas, varka, IT, FoG, Pagan...you name it.
Do you know how many times someone from the strongest PvP clans has showed up to PK me after training their bot trains somewhere? or how many times I have been chased away from a grinding spot only to find 2-9 afk bots there 10 minutes later and then be chased away again or threatned with PM if I try to train them to get my spot back?
Do those people deserve a CH or anything in this game more than a legit player?
Ban all the botters (that are currently botting and has botted previously) and ebayers and then I won't complain about server merges, but until then....hell no
I'm sensing a lot of hostility here. You sure take this game seriously. Lets not get so worked up about an opinion I'm not even passionate about. For people who get angry about others telling them how they like to play you are sure good at doing so yourselves. I love the speedy assumptions about botting and how I spend my time in-game.
As for Mr. Rum.... you've been a forum staple for years...and years.....and years and anyone who has glanced here knows it. Just learn a new word today? They wern't "suppositions" anyhow. They were assumptions or educated guesses at best. As for your question, yes, I am omniscient of information clearly plastered across public forums.
"I am sorry, Mr. OP, but your suppositions that others are inferior and ought to change to conform to your style of 'fun' is absurd"
I never said anyone was inferior or should play the way I do. I just think the game should be PLAYED, not left to die as more people quit and servers slowly shrink and markets get weaker and weaker along with PvP and PvE. Less players = less party and raid options too.
"But, apart from all that, I hope you have a very nice day and that your dream girl falls in love with you today!"
If 4 servers merged into 1, 75% of the so called clans that could just log in and buy a new CH won't be able to, becuase they will all be sold. The odds are against you.
Not everyone got the adena on the previous merge, only that that bought the CH during the last 30 days or something and even not all of them got the adena aither because of some problems.
And no I don't say that everyone higher than me is a bot, but I say that many of them are bots. The reason I say that is because basicly every PvP clan on Aria got chars that was botted up from lvl 1 to 80 something before being put in the clan...I have seen them in bot trains in catas, varka, IT, FoG, Pagan...you name it.
Do you know how many times someone from the strongest PvP clans has showed up to PK me after training their bot trains somewhere? or how many times I have been chased away from a grinding spot only to find 2-9 afk bots there 10 minutes later and then be chased away again or threatned with PM if I try to train them to get my spot back?
Do those people deserve a CH or anything in this game more than a legit player?
Ban all the botters (that are currently botting and has botted previously) and ebayers and then I won't complain about server merges, but until then....hell no
everybody got their adena last merge, you don't know what you 're talking about. I got 4 billion for 2 chs bought in c3 and c5. The 2b went to an account that had been inactive for like a year before mergers, I didn't even see the adena till they did that free reactivate all inactive accounts for 2 weeks event.
And I 've seen bot trains from a pve clan on my server.Tagged, no wars, their clan leader occasionally even posts here proclaiming how legit his clan is and how he hates bots and "PvPers" but ... they had a nice train running in DO. And when we PKed them we got half an hour of IMs and shouts in Giran and Rune whining that we don't respect their neutrality and PVE status and that we suck and should quit cause we think we can run the server any way we want and don't respect people that just enjoy the pve aspect of the game.
everybody got their adena last merge, you don't know what you 're talking about. I got 4 billion for 2 chs bought in c3 and c5. The 2b went to an account that had been inactive for like a year before mergers, I didn't even see the adena till they did that free reactivate all inactive accounts for 2 weeks event.
Nice if you were able to buy a ch for 2b in C3, most of the clans I know which had a ch from earlier chronicles had to do "workarounds" to make sure they had exactly the right amount of adena in their clan wh during the first seconds of the server merge (i.e. not "less than max bid" by getting back only the 50m they paid for the ch back then), so they had to sell and re-buy their ch for max bid right before the merge to make sure they KNEW they had the right amount of money.
Like others said, a server merge would make more people leave than make people happy. If they merged all the servers into one, only the high lvl botters (there, I said it) would be happy - for a week or two, before one side dominates and the others all join the winning side or quit the game. And the normal people who are "afraid to pvp" won't be able to do anything on the server anymore, because all the higher lvl xp spots will be perma-hogged by people they can't beat, or if they get a spot, they will be pk'd out of it by bored botters. So the legit people (and I do not only mean the lvl 70 ones, I also mean the 80+ non-botters and non-epicced out/non-"all my skills are oe'd to 30" ones) will quit, too. So why would NCSoft want to do that?
Nice if you were able to buy a ch for 2b in C3, most of the clans I know which had a ch from earlier chronicles had to do "workarounds" to make sure they had exactly the right amount of adena in their clan wh during the first seconds of the server merge (i.e. not "less than max bid" by getting back only the 50m they paid for the ch back then), so they had to sell and re-buy their ch for max bid right before the merge to make sure they KNEW they had the right amount of money.
Like others said, a server merge would make more people leave than make people happy. If they merged all the servers into one, only the high lvl botters (there, I said it) would be happy - for a week or two, before one side dominates and the others all join the winning side or quit the game. And the normal people who are "afraid to pvp" won't be able to do anything on the server anymore, because all the higher lvl xp spots will be perma-hogged by people they can't beat, or if they get a spot, they will be pk'd out of it by bored botters. So the legit people (and I do not only mean the lvl 70 ones, I also mean the 80+ non-botters and non-epicced out/non-"all my skills are oe'd to 30" ones) will quit, too. So why would NCSoft want to do that?
Yeah but the workaround was posted in this very board in the very thread announcing the mergers by among other people, myself. Search for the thread if you need confirmation. So anybody that needed to could do it. And either way, if somebody didn't do it it was their fault, not what that other dude said that "some people didn't get their adena" .. just some people lacked the brains to think things out.
i've said it before...
i am against server merge until Nsoft is willing to increase the character maximum to account for multiple servers full of characters...
i have 14 active characters on this one account... if servers merge...
7 of them will be lost. that's just not cool.
Yeah but the workaround was posted in this very board in the very thread announcing the mergers by among other people, myself. Search for the thread if you need confirmation. So anybody that needed to could do it. And either way, if somebody didn't do it it was their fault, not what that other dude said that "some people didn't get their adena" .. just some people lacked the brains to think things out.
There are people that paid 50m (or whatever) for a clan hall in some previous chronicle (indicating they were around for a long time) and couldn't find two billion many chronicles later? They trully suck at this game if there are, and no they don't deserve a ch. Heck you can even make 40 people pay 50m into the cwh and get the 2b, and 50m in Gracia 2 was peanuts. If a whole clan in Gracia Part 2 couldn't scrounge together 2billion then NO they didn't deserve their clan hall.
. If you want to go to a more popular server then use the **** server transfer service and please don't cry that you can't move all your gear or adena because if you are like 85-95% of those that only plays for PvP then you haven't done a single thing to earn your gear anyways...not to mention your character.
oh wait...I forgot...they are PvE clans and doesn't deserve those clan halls....they are specialy reserved for clans that has 50%+ bots in them that farms adena for them 24/7 and not for some legit clan that has saved up adena for many months to be able to get one.
PvE = Carebear = the reason why PvP players bot since they don't want to be "carebears".
And no I don't say that everyone higher than me is a bot, but I say that many of them are bots. The reason I say that is because basicly every PvP clan on Aria got chars that was botted up from lvl 1 to 80 something before being put in the clan...I have seen them in bot trains in catas, varka, IT, FoG, Pagan...you name it.
Ban all the botters (that are currently botting and has botted previously) and ebayers and then I won't complain about server merges, but until then....hell no
What about those PvE clans that managed to save up enough adena to buy a CH in Giran, Aden, Rune or Goddard?
If population decreased, pve clans will merge in big pve clans and merge their money to get new clan hall, is no funny to stay in a clan level 8 or 9 with only 10 members :)
Not everyone has to actually work to keep what they have. Those who don't are more inclined to be pro-merge. Nothing new here.
Sorry, nothing in this game ever said you had to keep earning your ch.
And since you have been around so much, your post is in the wrong section, so your epic failure continues on and on and on and on.
You fail because you won't transfer to a server that plays the way you want. You have no care for those players and groups that put in the effort to earn what they have and wish to keep it, but rather you would have it change to fit you.
Oh, you have no educated guess. There was no poll, there was no stats on what people want. Only your feeble mind wishing you could have something you are not getting now either in r/l or in game.
IMO, the Dev's of this game didn't thoroughly think out the end game for markets other than their Korean market.... and consequently we are left with what we have:
People at the end game bored because there is a severe unbalancing that happens somewhere in the 80s.
The people who aren't at end game, because they have no desire to really be there, preferring PvE, populate most of the servers and complain about the PvPers desire to have a denser population.
There has become a clear delineation between the two kinds of players. IMO there needs to be designed servers for PvP and PvE. It has come to that.
Server transfers are not the answer. You think a server merge deprives the players of too much? Server transfers are ridiculous in that way.
I am seriously considering deactivating my account at the end of the month because there is really nothing much for me to log in for. The thought of grinding for hours on end -- honestly, just for something to do -- i just cannot abide with. The PvP is really kind of a joke and becomes unbalanced too profoundly. The grind is too tedious to log in just to do that...
i agree armenua. Only one thing id add. Make sure the pve server still has castle seige and tw. They can be controlled by npc's and work similarily to seven signs.
I still don't get why the OP and the others that are constantly banging the drum for server merges think that PvP would somehow be a transcendent experience on a merged server.
How does bunching in all the people that would still be willing to play L2 in 1 or 2 servers change the game so that "carebears" would suddenly be turned into fierce PvP warriors with OE-ed skills and top equipment? Nothing would cause me to join the loudmouthed, trash-talking, overpowered griefers that the OP so longs to share a server with.
For the OP and his ilk, I am "no fun" or a "coward" because I don't flag back on an 85 Nuker on my 79 Dorf after he already erased all my CP with the flagging shot. If I were to play after a server merge like the one proposed here (absolutely no chance BTW), how would the OP react to me? Would he PK me? Yes, probably. I'm guessing that would get old pretty soon though. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of new people to the OP on a merged server would be more like me and less like him.
So, how about you explain to me why adding a whole bunch of "carebears" to the population of your server would make the game better for the OP and his lot?
I still don't get why the OP and the others that are constantly banging the drum for server merges think that PvP would somehow be a transcendent experience on a merged server.
How does bunching in all the people that would still be willing to play L2 in 1 or 2 servers change the game so that "carebears" would suddenly be turned into fierce PvP warriors with OE-ed skills and top equipment? Nothing would cause me to join the loudmouthed, trash-talking, overpowered griefers that the OP so longs to share a server with.
YOU ARE IN AN ALLIANCE WITH RR. Enough said.
For the OP and his ilk, I am "no fun" or a "coward" because I don't flag back on an 85 Nuker on my 79 Dorf after he already erased all my CP with the flagging shot. If I were to play after a server merge like the one proposed here (absolutely no chance BTW), how would the OP react to me? Would he PK me? Yes, probably. I'm guessing that would get old pretty soon though. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of new people to the OP on a merged server would be more like me and less like him.
So, how about you explain to me why adding a whole bunch of "carebears" to the population of your server would make the game better for the OP and his lot?
There are no 85 nukers on Sayha, and more than likely they'd one shot you.
I still don't get why the OP and the others that are constantly banging the drum for server merges think that PvP would somehow be a transcendent experience on a merged server.
Because as things stand right now every server has 1 dominating pvp oriented clan and no fights, you bunch all these clans in one server you 'll have some fun ... for a while at least
I still don't get why the OP and the others that are constantly banging the drum for server merges think that PvP would somehow be a transcendent experience on a merged server.
How does bunching in all the people that would still be willing to play L2 in 1 or 2 servers change the game so that "carebears" would suddenly be turned into fierce PvP warriors with OE-ed skills and top equipment? Nothing would cause me to join the loudmouthed, trash-talking, overpowered griefers that the OP so longs to share a server with.
For the OP and his ilk, I am "no fun" or a "coward" because I don't flag back on an 85 Nuker on my 79 Dorf after he already erased all my CP with the flagging shot. If I were to play after a server merge like the one proposed here (absolutely no chance BTW), how would the OP react to me? Would he PK me? Yes, probably. I'm guessing that would get old pretty soon though. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of new people to the OP on a merged server would be more like me and less like him.
So, how about you explain to me why adding a whole bunch of "carebears" to the population of your server would make the game better for the OP and his lot?
I love how you've decided what kind of player I am because I want a large population in-game. My highest toon is 70 and I rarely PvP but I'm not afraid of it.... I don't cry when I get PK'd... I don't talk trash when I win. I'm a PvE player but I don't think I'm better than PvPers because I "take the high road" like you seem to. The main reason I'd want it is for the market. Would be nice to go to giran and actually be able to find what you need again.
More people = more competition between clans that PvP. It also means more people for PvEs to raid/party with and a more active market. More people means more people. What else do you want to know. More people to sit around and whine with when you get PKd. Seriously though, the simple fact that you'd quit if they did a merge like this is reason enough for me to support it.
Actually I don't think the fun (if you want to call it that) would last more then a week.
I can remember a few top clans coming over to my server, saying they would war and wipe out the top server clans in the name of fun PVP.
After about a week, those big PVP clans ended up joining those clans they said they were coming to destroy.
The end result of a big server merge would probably be 1 huge alliance running the server, and complaining that they had even less competition then before, becuase as unlikely as it is for some competition to charge a 150 person zerg, it would be more unlikely to charge a 600 person one.
um i think u missed the point........
lets take this into dream sequence......
picture if u will 2 servers all ppl.
All the carebears keep pve'ing. There will be no pvp for spots because our pve spots are lowbies to the pvp'ers, so they wont be there. So us carebears will have to wait our queue for our prefered pve spots, for other ppl who are lvling. This would cause us to either a:> quit, or b:> play lower chars that have other spots to lvl in. I have 28 chars. If my spot is taken i just zone in a diff toon, in a diff spot, and continue playing. Us carebears stay carebears or we quit. We dont pvp.
All the pvpers pvp against all the other pvper's from ther servers. This causes competition for a while, then one group will dominate, then that group will add alll other pvper's to their clan. Then they take all the pvp part of the game and scream for competition.
Seem familiar?
Mergers will not fix the issue that carebears pve, and pvp'ers pvp. Thats what he was saying. Period.
Easy way to see where you are on this issue (or where you should be rather).
Answer this question. Was your server more fun/interesting 2 years ago when it had a higher population? If the answer is yes then why? Obviously it was because there were more people.
I can see why some wouldn't want a merge but personnally I think the pros outweigh the cons. Just my opinion...
YOU ARE IN AN ALLIANCE WITH RR. Enough said. True, Peacecore is in an alliance with RR. I guess that's enough said from you, but I don't see what it has to do with anything discussed here.
There are no 85 nukers on Sayha, and more than likely they'd one shot you.So Imran isn't 85 yet? That's mildly interesting but doesn't invalidate my point.
I love how you've decided what kind of player I am because I want a large population in-game. My highest toon is 70 and I rarely PvP but I'm not afraid of it.... I don't cry when I get PK'd... I don't talk trash when I win. I'm a PvE player but I don't think I'm better than PvPers because I "take the high road" like you seem to. The main reason I'd want it is for the market. Would be nice to go to giran and actually be able to find what you need again.In turn, I love how you assume that I have the "high road" or think I'm better than PvP oriented players. I'm not, I am only going on the drivel I see in "Hero Shout". The point about the market is well taken and honestly I had not thought about that. I will take that point under advisement, though every other point has been that people are bored with PvP, so you can forgive me missing this point I am sure.
More people = more competition between clans that PvP. It also means more people for PvEs to raid/party with and a more active market. More people means more people. As stated in other posts in this thread, it would quickly degenerate into a huge zerg of PvP players all complaining that there isn't any PvP so I don't agree that it would cause PvP oriented players to enjoy the game more. As for the PvE content, does anyone not in the server's current zerg actually see endgame content? Once the new server degenerated into the inevitable zerg, no more PvE joy for anyone. Currently more people have access to the endgame content, mashing them all into 1 server (or 2) reduces the number people having access.
What else do you want to know. More people to sit around and whine with when you get PKd. Seriously though, the simple fact that you'd quit if they did a merge like this is reason enough for me to support it.I don't whine when I get PKed, I chuckle at the RED and release to clan hall. Given the point above, you would like to see me quit with my WS and my constant overnight/while-at-work store with crafted items? OK, then don't complain about the market...
Easy way to see where you are on this issue (or where you should be rather).
Answer this question. Was your server more fun/interesting 2 years ago when it had a higher population? If the answer is yes then why? Obviously it was because there were more people.
I can see why some wouldn't want a merge but personnally I think the pros outweigh the cons. Just my opinion...
Answer to question: NO! It is way more fun for me on Sayha than it was 2 years ago. Actually has more to do with a certain segment of the population leaving.
Well from my perspective, im having more fun than ive ever had playing l2. I finally have access to high lvl toons after 4yrs of grinding(COV rox), i can grind in peace without looking over my shoulder, i can pvp anonomously w/o any penalty or reprecussion (love tw's) there isnt much more id enjoy:) i know i could never wear the next gear.. so i dumped all my s gear infavour of oe'd a gear.
Disclaimer and preemptive troll prevention:
The opinions stated above do not necessarily reflect that of this poster or his keyboard. I have no disillusions that this post will make any difference to NC Soft and I have little doubt that it will get flamed but there it is. Yes, I also did a forum search and only found posts about merging one server with another, not all together.
Kraig
That is not a disclaimer...This IS a disclaimer...
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PPS in August I was 84 lvl, right now I m 85, 12% and that was done playing about 3-4 hours a day. The fact YOU can't do that doesn't make me a bot, it just makes you inept.
hm, no offense, but that's not really all that remarkable, starting from 84 with S80 gear and access to the best XP spots
just need a few friends who regularly play key classes at the same time as you
in any case, it doesn't have anything to do with whether he's inept or not
anyways, on-topic
Because as things stand right now every server has 1 dominating pvp oriented clan and no fights, you bunch all these clans in one server you 'll have some fun ... for a while at least
that's the tricky part "for a while"...and then most of the top PvPers band(wagon) together and totally dominate again, either because they want to win all the time or because their clan leaders find it a more efficient arrangment for performing their RMT functions
honestly, i'm for merges as well - would love to have new people to fight or ally (except for skill-less noobs who use pvp aid programs ofc), boost the economy, etc.
but if it's going to degenerate within a few months to the same old situation, then meh...much less interesting. (though i'd still be for it just to have a better in-game marketplace - ours is utterly abyssmal at the moment :/ )
The hit to the economy might be good or bad depending on your perspective.
Some servers economies are dead and the prices have skyrocketed. Other servers the market is dead and the prices are down to insane low levels. What you would effectivley do is give the servers with the low prices the edge, as everyone coming over would have ++ gear, while others would be sitting with lower grade gear going wth.
As to if the prices would soar, or plummet that would be anyones guess.
I'd be for another merge only if the GMs keeping hitting botters. Seeing the server so empty is a bit depressing, but the idea of living with loads of bot trains and botted up DDs pwners post merge is even more so.
IMO a merger leaving just two servers would bring with it bot zergs so the 'top' clans can keep mats and high level back up toons flowing. And I do believe the bots will be in all but the lowest levels of the game, so PVE'ers will still be affected by the pvp clans in some way.
For the record, I'm currently in the dominate Sayha zerg so I do both pvp and pve. But I report every ally member I see flagrantly botting and I avoid parties that have a history of trailing botted buffers like so much toilet paper stuck to their shoes.
I'd be for another merge only if the GMs keeping hitting botters. Seeing the server so empty is a bit depressing, but the idea of living with loads of bot trains and botted up DDs pwners post merge is even more so.
IMO a merger leaving just two servers would bring with it bot zergs so the 'top' clans can keep mats and high level back up toons flowing. And I do believe the bots will be in all but the lowest levels of the game, so PVE'ers will still be affected by the pvp clans in some way.Actually, this is a pretty good point. In a "merge down to 2 servers" scenario, NCSoft would lose way more money than in the current "ban a few to show we are banning" scenario. NCSoft would effectively be consolidating the real estate and hence the number of bot trains needed to farm it. Many trains would "self-ban" because the train masters would need fewer trains to completely cover the landscape.
For the record, I'm currently in the dominate Sayha zerg so I do both pvp and pve. But I report every ally member I see flagrantly botting and I avoid parties that have a history of trailing botted buffers like so much toilet paper stuck to their shoes.Good for you! I do the same.
IMHO if a massive merge like that did happen it would make the 2 remaining servers immensely over populated. In Phoenix now at times I have a hard time finding a spot to grind. I think this would be ok if it was 2 NA servers and 2 Euro servers, however at this point I don't think that a merge needs to happen.
I don't understand the constant drumbeat for server merges. NCSoft provides server transfers, send yourself to a more populated server and leave me and my friends out of it.
Note to NCSoft (not that it matters one bit): Another server merger and I will be gone.
Because as things stand right now every server has 1 dominating pvp oriented clan and no fights, you bunch all these clans in one server you 'll have some fun ... for a while at least
Bordrx--we already lived this hopeful dream....and it didn't come true.
The merged servers from before did not become PvP Mecca's where all wonderful PvP happened all the live long day. They just didn't.
There was 3-4 weeks of power shakeups, basically all the fragile cheaters dropped tags and joined whoever they thought the winning team would be, and we saw the establishment of what we pretty much have now.
The merges did not draw hordes of players back to L2. They did not provide months of action-packed play. They didn't accomplish ANYTHING meaningful.
I can't help but keep asking--so what exactly would be different this time?
We won't get less bots, we won't get more players overall (the total subscriptions will fall just like they did last time), we won't get invigorated economies back...all we'll do is lose frustrated legit players just like last time.
I'm absolutely convinced we're going to see a merge within the next 6 months. I'm frankly surprised it hasn't already been announced. And if I'm right then people will keep playing or they won't and L2 will stumble along. But I think we can all predict with some certainty that when these merges eventually happen they won't make a **** thing better.....because they aren't the solution to L2's problems!
You have eight buckets full of water. But these buckets have holes, so the water keeps flowing out. So when all the buckets are only half full anymore, you pour the remaining water into four buckets and throw the empty buckets away. "Yay, now we got full buckets again!" you shout, but the remaining buckets still have holes, so the water still is flowing out. Now the four buckets are all only half full, and you say "****, I really like full buckets, now I have to put all that water into two of them to make those full". A wise man comes along, sees the whole mess and asks "So what will you do when the last bucket is running dry? And why didn't you plug those holes right at the start, then you wouldn't have lost all that water in the first place?"
I can't help but keep asking--so what exactly would be different this time?
Do you grasp that 5 out of the 8 servers max out at 1000 connections? That's 1000 characters max logged in including buffslaves, sellshops and bots. How many actual people does that make? 400? Max... That not an MMO. It's not even sustaineable for an MMO like Lineage that has a huge reliance on market and materials.
Teon year, year and a half ago averaged 5000 connections each and every day, for comparison's sake. Look at Luna right now, it's afternoon in Europe ... 820 Online and 160 of those are Giran shops. Sayha? 751 online with 178 Giran shops.Those are worse than private servers and like I said in my original post at some point in time NCsoft will say enough is enough, we cant afford to pay for servers that 10 people play in and will merge everything.End of story.
You have eight buckets full of water. But these buckets have holes, so the water keeps flowing out. So when all the buckets are only half full anymore, you pour the remaining water into four buckets and throw the empty buckets away. "Yay, now we got full buckets again!" you shout, but the remaining buckets still have holes, so the water still is flowing out. Now the four buckets are all only half full, and you say "****, I really like full buckets, now I have to put all that water into two of the them to make those full". A wise man comes along, sees the whole mess and asks "So what will you do when the last bucket is running dry? And why didn't you plug those holes right at the start, then you wouldn't have lost all that water in the first place?"
You have eight buckets full of water. But these buckets have holes, so the water keeps flowing out. So when all the buckets are only half full anymore, you pour the remaining water into four buckets and throw the empty buckets away. "Yay, now we got full buckets again!" you shout, but the remaining buckets still have holes, so the water still is flowing out. Now the four buckets are all only half full, and you say "****, I really like full buckets, now I have to put all that water into two of the them to make those full". A wise man comes along, sees the whole mess and asks "So what will you do when the last bucket is running dry? And why didn't you plug those holes right at the start, then you wouldn't have lost all that water in the first place?"
Or the buckets don't just have holes, somebody decided by design to put those buckets out in the sun so half the water vaporizes.
And to quit with the analogies, grind game, huge time investment required, no actual content, people leave. L2 IMO failed in EU/NA because the devs failed to introduce content, they just went oh I know let's increase the level cap that will keep them playing. Wrong. And no, taking a mob from say Elven Ruins, renaming it and putting in Hellbound doesn't count as content.
then plz be part of te dwindling statistic and quit....... i personally plan to be playing for yrs to come ty very much. Even if im the last one standing:)
L2 IMO failed in EU/NA because the devs failed to introduce content
L2 failed in EU/NA because a handful of cheaters was allowed to skip 90% of the game content and to take the upper hand on the whole EU/NA target audience.
I don't understand the constant drumbeat for server merges. NCSoft provides server transfers, send yourself to a more populated server and leave me and my friends out of it.
Note to NCSoft (not that it matters one bit): Another server merger and I will be gone.
Truth is, they will merge servers again at some point within the next 12 months are so. They really have no choice.
Look at their other games - Auto Assault/Tabula Rasa. I have a feeling both of those games had at least some form of a community in them when they flicked the switch.
But I am still hoping they leave the lights on, and don't merge the servers. I really don't want to start another game.
L2 failed in EU/NA because a handful of cheaters was allowed to skip 90% of the game content and to take the upper hand on the whole EU/NA target audience.
Lol. You have no clue what you're talking about.
Cheaters cheat because the game is bad, and there are gaping holes in the system that make it extremely profiteable (in and out of game) to cheat.
If you're going to give the inmates the keys to the asylum, don't be surprised when they run out and wreck havoc.
Look at their other games - Auto Assault/Tabula Rasa. I have a feeling both of those games had at least some form of a community in them when they flicked the switch.
But I am still hoping they leave the lights on, and don't merge the servers. I really don't want to start another game.
NCSoft actually has a reputation for leaving the lights on as long as they can, but that doesn't make a dead game live.
Part of the reason why this game is designed the way it is, is to make people feel the same way you do.
You have put so much time in this game, that you don't want to leave and start over somewhere else. Gratz.
Some of us aren't so attached to eWork and eAccomplishments that we have to fake bias and allow the game to die for a majority of its players so that we can achieve something that we would probably never be able to if the game actually had a decent, active playerbase.
If anything, what you do in Lineage II now has very little meaning compared to what you did up to about a year ago. The game is so dead that it's hardly worth playing, and indeed it's hard to play simply because the player population is so small. I'm sure there is a server or two that will claim they are "fine," but they are exceptions. You simply cannot say this game is fun and the servers are okay with the conditions most have to play under. This game is not balanced for lower server populations that do nothing but XP. Sorry.
PvP and Politics are the only fun thing in Lineage II. You are in denial if you seriously want to come here and tell people you play the game cause XPing is fun. You are only XPing as a neutral, in peace, because you feel you cannot compete unless you are on a balance playing field with those elitist/end-game players. Not everyone was born yesterday.
grind game, huge time investment required, no actual content, people leave. L2 IMO failed in EU/NA because the devs failed to introduce content, they just went oh I know let's increase the level cap that will keep them playing. Wrong. And no, taking a mob from say Elven Ruins, renaming it and putting in Hellbound doesn't count as content.
+1
People have left the game because each update only puts the carrot of great gear out a little further, a little more spiffy and deadly, have allowed the abuse of the game to grow untamed, and offered nothing else at all to compensate... and have provided low level customer support to the point of rudeness often and little or no response to customer complaints and demands.
Another major problem: Once you have fallen behind in the leveling/gear part of the game, you pretty much have no chance of actually catching up and being a viable contender in the end game, for those of us interested in that. At the high end of the game, the distance between them and the players behind them gets farther and farther.
There are many schools of thought as to why that happened, but that pretty much ruined the game. NCSoft has to know this... or they have severe comprehension disabilities.
But the truth is just grinding to acheive the same thing over and over doesn't allow for any growth to the player.
The biggest draw of L2 is the people you play with. When they quit in droves and the friend base gets smaller and smaller, the game dies.
The biggest draw of L2 is the people you play with. When they quit in droves and the friend base gets smaller and smaller, the game dies.
This is a statement I can get behind.
Nice to see you know exactly how everyone else feels.
PVP and Politics the only fun thing in L2. LMAO. If I want PVP, I go play a different game, like a FPS.
Some people actually have made friends while playing this game, actually I can honestly say I know more people that got married from meeting in this game then from any dating site I know.
Alot of us are here more for the friends we have made then any other reason. Not becuase we feel a real sense of accomplishment from how high we got our little pixelated character. Sorry you were only able to get that small feeling of accomplishment in your time here.
I have yet to see a person post something that would actually be a Benefit to the playerbase if the servers merged.
I think the servers are finally at a population where they can run efficiently. Oh wait LAG is a huge benefit. The Bots have finally started leaving the servers, becuase the population isn't there of people who feel the need to feel like their E-Accomplishments(or something else) needs to be stroked, and the prices are coming down becuase they aren't over-inflated. Plus without a merge, clans keep what they have built up over the years, and not having it ripped away.
Now show me a benefit.
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add, I do enjoy XP'ing :P.
Cheaters cheat because the game is bad, and there are gaping holes in the system that make it extremely profiteable (in and out of game) to cheat.
If you're going to give the inmates the keys to the asylum, don't be surprised when they run out and wreck havoc.
Cheaters cheat because they are cheaters. They SAY they cheat for one reason or another (like "the game is bad") as a rationalization for their cheating. They always blame someone else rather than face the fact that they are cheaters.
On another point (BOrdX post), I believe that there is a great deal of content in L2. I have been playing well over five years and I still delight in the content I know and find new content frequently. Perhaps our definitions of content differ, which is reasonable since people are all different. Still, I disagree with your simplistic argument that L2 has no content.
In all probability the current L2 population probably has quite a few reasons. Cheaters turning off legit players is certainly a significant part of it. The 'Western' tendency to want things easier than an 'Eastern' game gave them is another. Also the newness of L2 and MMORPHS in general has worn off so people naturally migrate to other persuits. I am sure there are lots of other reasons, as well.
Still, I am having a great deal of fun in L2. Personally I hope it keeps running for another decade. I don't mind the 'low' server pop on Sayha, I think it is quite adequate for my pleasant play. I think L2 is the best game I have ever played and I have played a LOT of games over a LONG time.
L2 failed in EU/NA because a handful of cheaters was allowed to skip 90% of the game content and to take the upper hand on the whole EU/NA target audience.
It saddens me that you don't realize that a game that allows 90% of its "content" to be bypassed is fundamentally flawed in its design.
Simple case in point: You want to add s80? Fine, add 200 raids that each need 40 people to kill and make those raids the only way to get s80. NcSofts way? Go grind Hellbound collect quest items craft and sell s80 sets to those that can't exp in Hellbound. I made 80b+ doing exactly that, selling s80 to people that either couldn't organize themselves or just leveled to 80 with a buffslave in IOP and didn't know anybody else in game. That's fundamentally flawed game design if you ask me. I know that 79 of my 80 billion probably came from ebayers but ... is it my fault ncsoft allowed this by design?
I have yet to see a person post something that would actually be a Benefit to the playerbase if the servers merged.
This discussion is happening because very rarely does anyone who can implement change ever listen to us. So pleasing and benefiting the playerbase actually is not a mitigating factor. ^^
Some of us aren't so attached to eWork and eAccomplishments that we have to fake bias and allow the game to die for a majority of its players so that we can achieve something that we would probably never be able to if the game actually had a decent, active playerbase.
If anything, what you do in Lineage II now has very little meaning compared to what you did up to about a year ago.
blah blah blah
PvP and Politics are the only fun thing in Lineage II. You are in denial if you seriously want to come here and tell people you play the game cause XPing is fun. You are only XPing as a neutral, in peace, because you feel you cannot compete unless you are on a balance playing field with those elitist/end-game players. Not everyone was born yesterday.
A lot of assumptions there. Dont get a brain freeze after you bite on this fudgesicle but ppl play this game for reasons besides your own. Even without the omnipresent 'factorable' word I new I smelt that air of superiority somewhere and it smelt of trensharo.
And Borderx, I think the example you gave actually fits with Krissa example. Botters were able to leap frog above the legit playerbase and botfarm quests all by their lonesome. I see policing as the fundamental flaw of this game. But I do agree that there should have been more paths to advancing in the gear grind.
Lol. You have no clue what you're talking about.
Cheaters cheat because the game is bad,
If the game is "bad" for you, you are playing the wrong game. If you cheat in order to make "shortcuts" around what you don't like in the game, the game would be better without you.
and there are gaping holes in the system that make it extremely profiteable (in and out of game) to cheat.
As they say in RL, "crime doesn't pay". The only cause of such "holes in the system" is the lack of effective enforcement of the declared rules by NCsoft.
It saddens me that you don't realize that a game that allows 90% of its "content" to be bypassed is fundamentally flawed in its design.
It works in Korea. It works in Russia. It somehow worked here too, until the game started to be neglected in favor of Richard Garriott's own pet projects.
Simple case in point: You want to add s80? Fine, add 200 raids that each need 40 people to kill and make those raids the only way to get s80. NcSofts way? Go grind Hellbound collect quest items craft and sell s80 sets to those that can't exp in Hellbound.
Technically, it's not the NC Korea's fault that the percentage of 80+ players on NC West servers is higher than is expected for this stage of game. If those who tried to bot their levels and/or ebay their ingame wealth would have been effectively banned, most of the ppl that buy S80 now would be at 79, like their Korean equivalents were before Gracia Plus.
If the game is "bad" for you, you are playing the wrong game. If you cheat in order to make "shortcuts" around what you don't like in the game, the game would be better without you.
I don't play this game. My roomate and I just have our accounts on the same PlayNC Master Account, which I own. I am clearly here because I've been secretly in love with you since the first time I've read one of your forum posts.
As they say in RL, "crime doesn't pay". The only cause of such "holes in the system" is the lack of effective enforcement of the declared rules by NCsoft.
Lol. Okay.
RumPunch: If you are trying to imply that I am a cheater, you really don't know what the hell you're talking about.
The game has many faults, and cheaters simply don't care about them because they can exploit them whilst avoiding all of the effort that legit players have to put in to achieve the same things (at half the speed).
They don't mind playing this game, cause they are on top and they are beating you. They play to win. That's what's fun for them. When the game gets near its EOL, they bail and move onto where the grass is greener.
TBH, the lack of adequate PvE progression and the pointless grind is what did it in for me. I have lots and lots of time to play video games, but there need be a reason for me to spend as much time in a game that requires as much as Lineage II. I failed to find a good reason, so I had to go.
If you love clicking the same mobs all day for months on end, then by all means, have fun!
Ok so i very boring the much cries what u made/make in this forum!
Hard the game for u? Than lets quit!
You cry always for NCSoft: too much the bot bann them, merge the servers, much the ebayers, etc lets stop it!
The problem here only with you all! Why You use bot? Why You use ebay?
When u ask these qustions the players who are cheat. They always answer "i have to work much", "i havent time to play", "i have to study much". But who care these things? WHO CARE? This game is a "HARDCORE" MMORPG where for u not enough play with it 1-2 hours a day if u want be the king on your server, u have to play 8+ hours a day. If u cant do it than, dont cheat than lets quit from the game!
Im loving XPing, PVPing and do everything else in this game cuz for this game has realy own style in everything here u can get freedom, and when i can do that i play 16 or 18 hours a day with this game i do it.
If i earned everything by my hands another persons can do it mayber later maybe earlier but it isnt a race it is a game where u have to make fun with another persons. I have 3 accounts too i put them to window mode and make good macro and i can control them by my hands.
The next problem again just with u all. If a player example botting in your klan u dont write about him/her petition cuz it is your klan mate, if do it one of your friend u again wont write petition cuz it is your friend.
So I have decided in this moment that i will petition at firstly from now my friends if i see they cheating in game, wont be care if they be angry for me! I do it!
And Let know you all that this game not at firstly make for EU/NA region this game make/made for asian players who play more much like than us so for them needs the higher and higher levels, new high lvl items!
And in Asia this game is very very popular take very high money. It is very succesful in Russia too, how i know they 10 servers and all time near to full the all servers or they are full.
At us not the player base went lower at firstly the players activity are lower, much ppls who old times played about 6-7 hours a day now play 3-4 so for this things seems servers are lower populated. And a lots of bot got bann if u open your eyes u can see it. I ask from you why better play with game like than the Silkroad where are the all server full but the 90% of accounts are bot account?
I think what NCSoft have to changing at us the next points:
1. More activity on website (best a new website)
2. Start give higher promotion for this game this game never got promotion in this region (the game is good and in MMOs dont mean nothing if a game 1 or 5 years old)
3. They have to continue cleaning the servers from cheaters and adena farmers.
Lots to read here and perhaps silly to respond because i have not logged into L2 for over 4 weeks, but IMHO L2 should merge into fewer servers.
Can u imagine Old School Cruma Tower type scenarios in level 75+ spots? Good old random pk's and spot defense? Those were fun days indeed and the game had a certain innocence that made it completely playable.
I, like many of the legit players I know, simply stopped at 79 and have no desire to "click click click" to try and catch up to end game 83 + level players. So many good players left L2; it makes me laugh to read Tabbie Mae's comments about liking things the way they are on Sayha when her clan is merged with RR....
Tabbie is this ignorance on your part? or u simply don't understand what you are saying? I am guessing you have no understanding about who it is you are merged with...and that makes me believe you should not post about Sayha...at least in reference to "fairness" and "legit"...
Anyway, if u wanna have fun the way the game was meant to be played, at least my belief, then fewer servers are the way to go. It is far too late for L2, bots, NC enforcement and Adena selling, toon purchasing, killed it. Perhaps L2 is now your "facebook" and you can't turn it off but for most it is (was) meant to be a game, an outlet, not a frustrating experience trying to compete against bots and cheaters.
Laldanstar
79 MS ( Yep stopped at 45%) ( No plans on returning until Epilogue to see what the new vitality is like and the likelihood of achieving 80+ on a casual basis)..
lvl 79 is a huge xp wall / slap in the face. it really does make the legits stop and ask, wtf am I grinding away for? hopefully the new areas will be hax xp, because it's pretty ridiculous as it is now.
I very very like grind, i always wanted a game where in everday i have to do something and all time will things what about in the currently moments just can dreaming example now vesper set, lvl 85 etc. About 1 years ago i just dreamed about Noblesse, Draconic Set, lvl 79 subclasses etc. But now my Adventurer lvl 79 noblesse have a lvl 75 sub tyrant class and lvl 47 sws class. My Hierophant is lvl 78 with lvl 40 ee sub and my blade dancer is lvl 65.
But anyway im not realy happy that xping is easier nowadays like about 2 years ago. Yes i spend much time with Lineage 2 so i can xping and farming fast by my hands too, but another who are legits and have just only 2-3 hours a day for them mean very much the vitality system so i can accept it.
Anyway i very hate when ppls use these words for Lineage 2 "dead" "killed" these things are not true. How i said 1000 times Lineage 2 EU/NA not the center of Lineage 2. I say for you try to join to any asian official server and try it.
And i think if NCSoft will want they can save the Lineage 2 and will can upload these 8 servers with players. And I think they will do soon for it something cuz for them big the money in this game and i think they dont want loose it.
Do you grasp that 5 out of the 8 servers max out at 1000 connections? That's 1000 characters max logged in including buffslaves, sellshops and bots. How many actual people does that make? 400? Max... That not an MMO. It's not even sustaineable for an MMO like Lineage that has a huge reliance on market and materials.
Teon year, year and a half ago averaged 5000 connections each and every day, for comparison's sake. Look at Luna right now, it's afternoon in Europe ... 820 Online and 160 of those are Giran shops. Sayha? 751 online with 178 Giran shops.Those are worse than private servers and like I said in my original post at some point in time NCsoft will say enough is enough, we cant afford to pay for servers that 10 people play in and will merge everything.End of story.
what I grasp is that your number combination theory is EXACTLY what was used as justification last time......
"we've got servers with 1000 or less players---let's combine them!--then the servers will be full and fun and people will come back and PvP will reign supreme again.....and....and...and....."
Except it didn't work. None of those things actually happened.
I can of course see the thin servers, just like everyone else. But they aren't thin BECAUSE THERE ARE TOO MANY OF THEM....they are thin because there are serious issues with the game that are not addressed. New subscriptions are almost non-existent. Retention is pitiful. Good players (read legit) have been fed up with the refusal to address botting (talk about unbalanced at end-game!) for years. These things will still be true and continue if there are 6 total servers, or 4, or 2.
We'll see (you'll see), there will be mergers here at some point. At that point I think it will be obvious within DAYS that nothing of substance was fixed or improved by the mergers.
You can "want" these things to improve from merging servers till the cows come home--that won't make them happen, anymore than it did the first time around.
+1 to Varaya for the bucket analogy---priceless!
~D~
Anyway i very hate when ppls use these words for Lineage 2 "dead" "killed" these things are not true. How i said 1000 times Lineage 2 EU/NA not the center of Lineage 2. I say for you try to join to any asian official server and try it.
And i think if NCSoft will want they can save the Lineage 2 and will can upload these 8 servers with players. And I think they will do soon for it something cuz for them big the money in this game and i think they dont want loose it.
What? You think NCSoft should upload the Asian servers?
NA/EU is not the center of the L2 universe, Korea is. But they are the ones that marketed it to the Western World. Sometimes u just have to play it to your market. And the other thing, is to police the game so that it remains as it was intended.
It is true server merge wont remove the currently problem. And i think for make so big server merging not good things. For these things play too much ppls. Okay 6 server can be enough too, but not the all ppls like the full servers and that all time will have to pvp for xp spots. U can see much ppls cry here that hard for them the xping what do u think if u will need pvp for 1 spot about 1 hours and in this time u die 2 times at lvl 79 how many xp loose? At higher lvls it is very much.
We dont know the numbers how many players online in same time or how many active players are in 1 server.
I saw some months ago an NCSoft Quartely Earrings document. Where i read that in China was 8 game servers (in 2008 June) the most high only player number in same time 17,222 and the active acounts are 155,690. While at us was 10 game servers best online in same time 25,744 with 65,479 active accounts. So example if now the best online players number example 13,000 and are 50,000 active accounts cant do the NCSoft that merge the servers example merge to 4 servers, because if come out the new updates much players want try it same time so than servers will full and this will the problem then. We have to calculate with that maybe will something happing and the new players numbers will again higher and old ppls start return too. If it will happen than again will just come the full servers problem.
Very good example for this the City of Heroes game. How i know it is got the last expansion in 2007 after for 2 years nothing, but in 2009 april or may it is got another new expansion what was very succesful and started growing again the population in CoH so in september CoH got again an expansion what was again succesful. So lets believe me the server merge not a good way.
lvl 79 is a huge xp wall / slap in the face. it really does make the legits stop and ask, wtf am I grinding away for? hopefully the new areas will be hax xp, because it's pretty ridiculous as it is now.
They won't, and people have known that they won't for months.
Hope is great, but don't get too hung up on hope. NCSoft is capable of nothing other than disappointing most players.
Well they did add that sequence of quests in Epilogue that give around 30% at 79 ... those help get people to 80. And you get useable vitality in epilogue too, not like the current one that goes away with 3 chimeras
Well they did add that sequence of quests in Epilogue that give around 30% at 79 ... those help get people to 80. And you get useable vitality in epilogue too, not like the current one that goes away with 3 chimeras
Yup, it will last about 2.5 times as long from full (post-79 vit goes away as fast as 75-, i.e. no penalty anymore for high lvl players, and vit4/vit3 is increase by like 50% each or so). And will still regen at the same speed, so if you play every evening, you will still log on at low vit 2 each time.
I prefer an empty server than a full server. Why? Because there are less bots running around that are taking good grinding spots.
I don't care if you are bored and don't have anyone to kill, I don't care if you botted up to 80+ to become the strongest ones on the server and now are to strong to fight the ones that are left on the server. If you want to go to a more popular server then use the **** server transfer service and please don't cry that you can't move all your gear or adena because if you are like 85-95% of those that only plays for PvP then you haven't done a single thing to earn your gear anyways...not to mention your character.
Good point ! Not only that, but there are more forts, more battle type clanhalls legit clans which were not here from start can only hope for.
Since bots started moving out, the legit movement gathers pace. Ppl say now Franz is full of bots... If that is the case now, it was much-much worse in the past. It would have been not only impossible but impossible to imagine legit clans holding castles.
Things have changed. Game gets more and more interesting for legits while bots are bored to tears. Move them to a consolidated server and let them bot day and night, who cares.
We have plenty of empty cata rooms, not only those with stunners, some of the best also, it is more often than not to meet at least some live ppl in all catas&necros, ToI has an occupation rate of 50% during peak times, DVC is most of the time empty, raids are left to live for days, even epics, at least those up to level 70, rift is mostly empty, etc, etc...
Does that mean I dont like competition and I want to play alone in a server ? No, it means i dont want to compete with bots, they cheat for PvP and in PvP, they want a full server with enemies all over and mega high leveling places where legits have no access.
It can be done, move all caught cheaters in the PvP server, dont ban them. Give them the medicine of other megabotters, let them establish who can hadle the best cheating in "fair-fight", and leave us play the game.
Nobody loses, right ? Bots have the PvP they want, we have our normal game and can even start PvP after cheaters have been moved, NCsoft does not lose income, on the contrary, buts will be happier, we will be happier, more retired ppl will come back, etc.
Dont merge servers, consolidate only bots.
M
Instead of merging the servers into 1, Add a new server :). Call it Pandemonia or something similar (Sorry for the Aion reference). Make it the (We won't check for bots/PVP server). Allow a 1 time free transfer to the server. All the people crying for PVP, becuase no one will attack their lvl 83+ 600 person zerg will have the server they are begging for.
Funny thing is, I doubt it would take long for them all to group up into 1 "Safe" ally, then cry that no more people are transferring over to fight them.
I am sure this would also bring back alot of people into the other servers.
Good point ! Not only that, but there are more forts, more battle type clanhalls legit clans which were not here from start can only hope for.
Since bots started moving out, the legit movement gathers pace. Ppl say now Franz is full of bots... If that is the case now, it was much-much worse in the past. It would have been not only impossible but impossible to imagine legit clans holding castles.
Things have changed. Game gets more and more interesting for legits while bots are bored to tears. Move them to a consolidated server and let them bot day and night, who cares.
We have plenty of empty cata rooms, not only those with stunners, some of the best also, it is more often than not to meet at least some live ppl in all catas&necros, ToI has an occupation rate of 50% during peak times, DVC is most of the time empty, raids are left to live for days, even epics, at least those up to level 70, rift is mostly empty, etc, etc...
Does that mean I dont like competition and I want to play alone in a server ? No, it means i dont want to compete with bots, they cheat for PvP and in PvP, they want a full server with enemies all over and mega high leveling places where legits have no access.
It can be done, move all caught cheaters in the PvP server, dont ban them. Give them the medicine of other megabotters, let them establish who can hadle the best cheating in "fair-fight", and leave us play the game.
Nobody loses, right ? Bots have the PvP they want, we have our normal game and can even start PvP after cheaters have been moved, NCsoft does not lose income, on the contrary, buts will be happier, we will be happier, more retired ppl will come back, etc.
Dont merge servers, consolidate only bots.
M
Total true things i more much like the Lineage 2 like than about 1 years ago and why? because much fewer the bots number. I know when i made the Adventurer class change quest i was need about 1 week with daily 5-6 hours play time that i can do the 3 quests. Now that are more free spots in varka, hot springs, shrine of loyality was more easy for me.
And yes in new update u can earn from quests 30% xp of lvl 80 and u can play from increased vitality. So not need cry lets go play:). So i think start come the time of legit players:). This expansion can be the first step for it. Will very intresting what will the changes in Chaotic Throne 3.1:) i heard it is under making:)
\Tabbie Mae's comments about liking things the way they are on Sayha when her clan is merged with RR....
Tabbie is this ignorance on your part? or u simply don't understand what you are saying? I am guessing you have no understanding about who it is you are merged with...and that makes me believe you should not post about Sayha...at least in reference to "fairness" and "legit"...
Please .. oh please enlighten me with your all knowing wisdom.
Or the buckets don't just have holes, somebody decided by design to put those buckets out in the sun so half the water vaporizes.
And to quit with the analogies, grind game, huge time investment required, no actual content, people leave. L2 IMO failed in EU/NA because the devs failed to introduce content, they just went oh I know let's increase the level cap that will keep them playing. Wrong. And no, taking a mob from say Elven Ruins, renaming it and putting in Hellbound doesn't count as content.
No idea how a game that has been around as long as L2 has, is considered a failure when we have seen how many MMO's come and go since L2 has been around? Sure they could have done a lot better in some areas, but the game is defiantly not a failure. No game is going to last forever, and had NcSoft done a better Job, they might have prolonged what we are dealing with now for what, maybe another year or so.
-1 for merges. more bots packed into less servers does not make better game. easier to xp in lower population servers atm now anyway
XP'ing is good and all, but then what? You get your ideal level and then do what?... If there was no PvP in this game, what's the redeeming factor of even playing? Servers with less population means little to no PvP at all. No point in playing when it gets to that point.
This game is going to eventually die, and there is nothing wrong with that, and people need to stop being so naive about that outcome... it had a great run, but I would like to at least enjoy my last year or two of the game with populated servers, and competition, or anything giving me a reason to login other than my silver bar moving a few pixels to the right every 20 minutes.
XP'ing is good and all, but then what? You get your ideal level and then do what?... If there was no PvP in this game, what's the redeeming factor of even playing? Servers with less population means little to no PvP at all. No point in playing when it gets to that point.
This game is going to eventually die, and there is nothing wrong with that, and people need to stop being so naive about that outcome... it had a great run, but I would like to at least enjoy my last year or two of the game with populated servers, and competition, or anything giving me a reason to login other than my silver bar moving a few pixels to the right every 20 minutes.
Then it is perfect to make a server for bots and the few legits that enjoy dying in PvP against them, and leave our servers alone.
PvP will start here too when you know your opponent is not cheating to get high level and gear, is not using exploits to make +20 S84 weapons and no auto-target in his train. PvP is only for the masochistic ppl out there untill the bot issue is not adressed.
In the meantime, there are plenty of ppl that enjoy the game even crippled as it is without the joy of PvP. With the bots leaving and the PvP legits either joining them or quitting altogether, we will soon be the majority over here. But then there will really be a need for mergers, as there will be only 10-15% of the ppl that were here when last merger took place. But we will stay and others will come too, either return or join from other MMORPGs out there designed for lazy ppl such as WoW and the like.
You see, you are rasing a false issue here... You say ppl get bored fast without the PvP and they have to work hard to get there.
The truth is the majority of PLAYERS in L2 are not "Pro" or "213374U", they are ppl that like being together and do things together, which enjoy community and challenges solving puzzles on how to level faster or defeat that RB with only the ppl online at that time, we play a few hours a day and that is still too much, however, the game lasts many years for us, not months as for bots, instead of doing things to give more challenges to bots (higher level cap, for instance) better concentrate on how to make it more fun for the real players, the ones that will be here for the long term.
Lets face it, bots and hardcore players are leaving L2, at least here, so better think smart and concentrate on the others. They are the majority right now, but are not so visible because the others are on all the time and create the impression of being in majority. They pay accounts too, are using servers and bandwidth much less than the others, in general they are the golden egg L2 is supposed to lay for NCWest. It was a mistake to allow botters because they burn out fast or use fake cards (in case of adena farmers which are almost extinct now), it would have made much more sense to support us than them. I hope at least now things will change, L2 is not dying of old age, if it is to die will die of neglect.
M
I'm a new player to L2, came here with my clan from another game. We're still low lv, yet we've seen the biggest problem of L2: bots.
Going to any hunting ground (Ie: catas) we can only see room after room filled with bots. At first we'd pk them, but we ended up wasting more time pking bots than actually lvling our chars. This is the greatest discouragement we've had so far, and think this'd be the reason there aren't that many new players to the game.
If NC payed more attention to the botting problem, the game might come back alive, and actually compete with aion and wow.
I'm a new player to L2, came here with my clan from another game. We're still low lv, yet we've seen the biggest problem of L2: bots.
Going to any hunting ground (Ie: catas) we can only see room after room filled with bots. At first we'd pk them, but we ended up wasting more time pking bots than actually lvling our chars. This is the greatest discouragement we've had so far, and think this'd be the reason there aren't that many new players to the game.
If NC payed more attention to the botting problem, the game might come back alive, and actually compete with aion and wow.
My 2 cents.
People need to stop saying that Botting is the reason the game is not getting any new players, that has nothing to do with the lack of new players to the game, it never has been.
Look at how and why Aion and Wow are doing strong, and you will see why L2 never has, and it has nothing to do with Bots/Cheaters. Marketing... Marketing... Marketing.
L2 is a great game, but the sad truth is most people now a days don't hear about it unless it's via word of mouth, or watching someone play the game, and inquire about it,or just stumble upon the website/screenshots online on accident, and it's not really financially feasible for NcSoft to budget a decent mount of resources to promote a game that's as old as Lineage is.
I live in Argentina, here the most popular mmorpg is L2, the problem is 99% of people who play L2, do it in private servers. The main difference beetween retail and private is support. Private servers may be filled with bugs, be of older chronicles and what not, but they do have active gms, stable communities and severe bot control.
I played Wow for 2 years, and aion for about a month, they're good games but I like L2 better. The only problem is feeling that you can't freely lv or anything, cause it's full of bots, using all the good spots, and pking isn't as fun as it'd be. That's what discourages new players, or players who prefer to stay in their private servers.
I live in Argentina, here the most popular mmorpg is L2, the problem is 99% of people who play L2, do it in private servers. The main difference beetween retail and private is support. Private servers may be filled with bugs, be of older chronicles and what not, but they do have active gms, stable communities and severe bot control.
I played Wow for 2 years, and aion for about a month, they're good games but I like L2 better. The only problem is feeling that you can't freely lv or anything, cause it's full of bots, using all the good spots, and pking isn't as fun as it'd be. That's what discourages new players, or players who prefer to stay in their private servers.
No. It's because they require little to no effort to play compared to Retail, and you can just buy your way into whatever level, gear, skills you want, unlike retail. Private Servers providing better support always gives me a good laugh, lol. Of course they provide better support when you can donate and pretty much get anything you want, where on retail, you pretty much need to invest a lot more effort and drive into accomplishing something, not the simple click of a button and charge of a Credit Card.
No. It's because they require little to no effort to play compared to Retail, and you can just buy your way into whatever level, gear, skills you want, unlike retail. Private Servers providing better support always gives me a good laugh, lol. Of course they provide better support when you can donate and pretty much get anything you want, where on retail, you pretty much need to invest a lot more effort and drive into accomplishing something, not the simple click of a button and charge of a Credit Card.
You're talking about only 1 kind of private servers, the pvp pwnd lol ones, but are missing those that are retail like. Most in my country are like that, you donate and don't get god mode, items or anything, just donate. Those servers have the same if not more players than retail ones.
The problem is retail has a bad reputation, you may say whatever you want, but when someone says "I'm playing retail" instantly he is told "oh, botting".
This game needs more support, NC taking care of the little day to day stuff, mostly bots, and you'll see an increase in player base.
You're talking about only 1 kind of private servers, the pvp pwnd lol ones, but are missing those that are retail like. Most in my country are like that, you donate and don't get god mode, items or anything, just donate. Those servers have the same if not more players than retail ones.
The problem is retail has a bad reputation, you may say whatever you want, but when someone says "I'm playing retail" instantly he is told "oh, botting".
This game needs more support, NC taking care of the little day to day stuff, mostly bots, and you'll see an increase in player base.
You donate, just to donate! No Special benefits! OK...
Indeed, marketing matters, but that only to get new players in, it does not work about retention.
And many left because of bots, no matter what you say, that is the hard truth.
In time I developped a way to make bots matter less and with empty servers we have level places too, but that is NOT solving the problem, just finding a way around it so it does not make it absolutely impossible and discouraging to play.
M
Most people I know who have left got tired of not being able to keep up with the botters. They realized they would never be able to compete unless they devoted their entire life to playing.
No. It's because they require little to no effort to play compared to Retail, and you can just buy your way into whatever level, gear, skills you want, unlike retail. Private Servers providing better support always gives me a good laugh, lol. Of course they provide better support when you can donate and pretty much get anything you want, where on retail, you pretty much need to invest a lot more effort and drive into accomplishing something, not the simple click of a button and charge of a Credit Card.
ebaying is another form of cheating, People who are good at the game don't have to cheat, it is only those who don't really have what it takes who cheat. Cheaters are, be definition, losers. Nothing that a cheater accomplishes means anything since all they have done is tainted.
Anyway, spending real money for game items is called ebaying. It is lame and will get you banned, sooner or later...after you have wasted a lot of money. It also gets you severely laughed at by honest players.
+vote to thread starter and idea. sick of dead servers w 1 side dominating everything
smae + vote. but i doubt nc will do nething about it. game is dead already for them is why they not striving to market the game anymore.
The cheaters just dont seem to get it. They overpower themselves, they ally with any other cheater they can find, and then they expect the legits to fight them. But everyone else knows that only bots can fight bots, so they stay PVE only. Mergers won't help one bit to stop this. You'll still have botters zerg on one side and pacifist legits on the other, and they're totally incompatible.
imo there's some action to be had for legits by selectively having wars between themselves, then that they can have relatively balanced pvp at their own levels. but a lot of them are content to just pve as well.
and top bot clans need to balance between themselves. they have to actively decide to not all zerg into one clan and/or the top clan needs to not recruit every idiot who always just wants to be with the top clan. smart top clans who actually WANT pvp need to selectively exclude most of the bandwagoners into some other clan and then war them; but it requires some discipline by the clan leaders, and many of them just don't take it into their own hands and/or realize that creating and maintaining pvp balance now has to be an actively pursued process in L2.
left up to human nature, you get what you have now, every cheater stuffed into one clan with every other cheater, all wondering why there's no pvp and they so bored all the time.
to undo this takes some difficult action by determined clan leaders to shake things up. or you can just wait for NC to ban the clan leaders.
The cheaters just dont seem to get it. They overpower themselves, they ally with any other cheater they can find, and then they expect the legits to fight them. But everyone else knows that only bots can fight bots, so they stay PVE only. Mergers won't help one bit to stop this. You'll still have botters zerg on one side and pacifist legits on the other, and they're totally incompatible.
this.
servers merge, pvp for 2 weeks, one side is winning, bandwagoners on losing side join winning side, winning side dominates even more, losing side disbands. And the legits KNOW they have no chance in pvp, so they do not even try (and the few from the legit clans who seek pvp join the winning side anyway "to try out something new and see the high end game content"). So you end up with bored high lvl pvp players and lower lvl / less well equipped pve players who have no interest at all in pvp - not because they dislike pvp itself but because, frankly, getting owned is not fun, and there is no way they can improve their situation unless they start botting/ebaying. It is simply too late to fix the game, there are too many people who have a huge advantage over others because they either cheated or profited from having cheaters in their clan who helped with pvp/raids/sieges. The game would be far more healthy now if NCSoft had stepped in years ago and prevented this whole crap from ever happening, then people would be on a more equal level now and far more people would participate in daily pvp.
servers merge, pvp for 2 weeks, one side is winning, bandwagoners on losing side join winning side, winning side dominates even more, losing side disbands. And the legits KNOW they have no chance in pvp, so they do not even try (and the few from the legit clans who seek pvp join the winning side anyway "to try out something new and see the high end game content"). So you end up with bored high lvl pvp players and lower lvl / less well equipped pve players who have no interest at all in pvp - not because they dislike pvp itself but because, frankly, getting owned is not fun, and there is no way they can improve their situation unless they start botting/ebaying. It is simply too late to fix the game, there are too many people who have a huge advantage over others because they either cheated or profited from having cheaters in their clan who helped with pvp/raids/sieges. The game would be far more healthy now if NCSoft had stepped in years ago and prevented this whole crap from ever happening, then people would be on a more equal level now and far more people would participate in daily pvp.
Yes. And no.
Yes it is so, no, it is not unfixable.
At any point in time banning all bots can breath new life into the game. Banning just some, will not solve anything. Legits, while more and more compared with the bored bots that are leaving, will not start PvP. The ones that do will either bot or quit from frustration, so they are disappearing, the only legit ppl remaining are the wise ones that understood they cant fight bots. And these will not PvP bots unless in sieges, 100 at a time to make time pass during fame farming. It is already the second time a legit clan holds a castle in the last month or so, bots are really leaving the game.
If NCSoft would ban the remaining 81+ that botted and/or bought adena and items now, many legits will return and there will be PvP and all, and server mergers will be required, but soon the need for another server may arise because of the high numbers of returning ppl.
Unfortunatelly, they do not see their interest, as most corporations dont think in the long term, just pass this quarter results we can't have a huge drop right now, that is the thing that continues to kill the game. Many bots will become legits after banning, even tho a minority, those that love the game and started botting just to have a chance.
Whenever short term results are required, the business suffers, same thing happened to the banks.
M
P.S.>Real Solution:
All bots be given amnesty, make them level 80 if they are higher and confiscate all gear above level 80, install antibot measures or ban 24/7 no matter big or small that bots after that.
This way no drop in subscription, instead a huge increase will happen. Game will have everything it had and more, guaranteed more subscriptions, everybody will be happy. Just need the will to admit the current policy is wrong.
The cheaters just dont seem to get it. They overpower themselves, they ally with any other cheater they can find, and then they expect the legits to fight them. But everyone else knows that only bots can fight bots, so they stay PVE only. Mergers won't help one bit to stop this. You'll still have botters zerg on one side and pacifist legits on the other, and they're totally incompatible.
have u ever heard of a server called Teon that untill recently has had 2 sides fighting for years now. If ppl wanna be carebear and join the winning side then they decide their servers fate. But i see servers like Bartz that has 1 clan dominating most things but has cpl lower alliances that could contest a war if another clan from another server opposed them. Same Situation on Pheonix. Same situation on Luna, Franz, Dev, and Aria, Sayha (RR Zerg of 500 Players = half the server). To look at all the potential for good wars and say o it will only last cpl weeks just shows u are naive. I could care less if bots fight each other(Teon), look at the pvp. You have to pvp to be able to exp, that was when l2 was fun.
You have to pvp to be able to exp, that was when l2 was fun.
I believe his point was that because some people refuse to use cheat programs, it is impossible for them to do any meaningful pvp with cheaters.
The end result is that once their reachable pve content has been exhausted, these people quit the game.
Transfer is the answer to all this whining. outside of your comfort zone? too much junk to liquidate? don't wanna spend $50? too bad
there are better situations on other servers, go look for yourself
Transferring is an option, but it is a stupid option and an old homily by now. It's almost a cop out to not have to think about the current state of L2. It basically has not that much to do with the server you are on. It has to do with the way the game has been run.
You accuse that transferring is out of the comfort zone? Seems to me that server mergers are outside the comfort zone of many here... most of which are not pvpers.
There are not necessarily better situations on other servers. I did transfer. Left the top clan and most of my stuff, adena, friends on my previous server... to go to a clan that virtually fell apart within 2 weeks. The grass, in this case, wasn't greener. But, I was bored on Bartz. So I still would come to the same point either place...
Transferring is not the simple answer. The answer is complicated.
The cheaters just dont seem to get it. They overpower themselves, they ally with any other cheater they can find, and then they expect the legits to fight them. But everyone else knows that only bots can fight bots, so they stay PVE only. Mergers won't help one bit to stop this. You'll still have botters zerg on one side and pacifist legits on the other, and they're totally incompatible.
It really still remains a numbers game.
They did a merge and what happened?
The 2 major sides that was created lasted 2-3 weeks and then they merged and became one.
What will prevent it from happening again and again?
Nothing, really.
Good post
I disagree. I don't think banning the bots will be of as much help as you think.
A tweaking of the game's mechanics is needed to encourage old players to return.
yes and yes
imo there's some action to be had for legits by selectively having wars between themselves, then that they can have relatively balanced pvp at their own levels. but a lot of them are content to just pve as well. Legit has nothing to do with it. Mid-level clans still have non-legits. But yeah, at this stage the pvp at those lvls are far more entertaining than what often passes for "endgame pvp". People throw themselves at you when they know you're not OP or uber geared/leveled, makes for good fun.
and top bot clans need to balance between themselves. they have to actively decide to not all zerg into one clan and/or the top clan needs to not recruit every idiot who always just wants to be with the top clan. smart top clans who actually WANT pvp need to selectively exclude most of the bandwagoners into some other clan and then war them; but it requires some discipline by the clan leaders, and many of them just don't take it into their own hands and/or realize that creating and maintaining pvp balance now has to be an actively pursued process in L2.
People, too often, would rather pretend they're having a blast and frustrate themselves for long periods till they reach breaking point and begin doing silly things.
left up to human nature, you get what you have now, every cheater stuffed into one clan with every other cheater, all wondering why there's no pvp and they so bored all the time.
Or people looking to feel "dominant(?)" that leave their clans to join the "winning" side, only to cry about it later.
to undo this takes some difficult action by determined clan leaders to shake things up. or you can just wait for NC to ban the clan leaders.
Surprisingly very difficult accomplishment to be honest, the undoing part.
Transferring is an option, but it is a stupid option and an old homily by now. It's almost a cop out to not have to think about the current state of L2. It basically has not that much to do with the server you are on. It has to do with the way the game has been run.
You accuse that transferring is out of the comfort zone? Seems to me that server mergers are outside the comfort zone of many here... most of which are not pvpers.
There are not necessarily better situations on other servers. I did transfer. Left the top clan and most of my stuff, adena, friends on my previous server... to go to a clan that virtually fell apart within 2 weeks. The grass, in this case, wasn't greener. But, I was bored on Bartz. So I still would come to the same point either place...
Transferring is not the simple answer. The answer is complicated.
Transferring isn't stupid, so don't say so just because your own experience with transfer didn't work out. I transferred and I'm much happier now, so are the rest of the ppl who came with, which was a lot of us.
If you transfer to create a balance, it's not a cop out at all, it's actually the answer to the one-sided server problem. Just because you continue to be bored sitting at the tip top of your completely one sided server, don't look down on those who actually still have balance elsewhere. We went and merged into the underdog side and made it strong enough to compete very well with the established top clan, and there are now real sieges and daily pvp.
Or people looking to feel "dominant(?)" that leave their clans to join the "winning" side, only to cry about it later.
Surprisingly very difficult accomplishment to be honest, the undoing part.
right. human nature; it's something most players can't/won't/don't want to face; that is, leaving to go to another clan/server and make an attempt at pvp balance and maybe getting completely owned in the process. that's what is also outside the comfort zone for many.
Devianne top clan pvp is balanced atm (botters/ebayers on both sides so it's ok lulz). Can't say for how long that will last but it is for now and has been for several months. We actually have several of the top heroes going back and forth between enemies each month, that's something most other servers haven't seen for a long time.
It has everything to do with legit and bot.
While there are low bots and high legits, the 2 are less and less miscible. In theory, as the level cap becomes older and older, legit should reduce the gap bit by bit, but this is not really happening, because most are passing the breaking point before reaching 80 and even 79.
PvP among bots only is desirable as well as among legits only. But how do you know legits are really that ? You may trust a clan or two, but it is enough to see someone bot there, even if is kicked soon, and all hope vanishes. Legits that allow PvP will soon quit or turn into bots even if they are still legit at the time the war starts. And war with only one clan is boring anyway, killing over and over same few ppl.
Bots have much more options, but lets face it, why they are botting in the first place ? To be "pwnz0rz", to be top of the chainfood, the option of winning cheater is appealing but the position of a defeated cheater is undesirable in any sane mind. So, as soon as one side gets a certain advantage (that happens naturally quite fast) there will be more ppl joining and the other side will join it eventually, sooner rather than later, because no clan leader can indeffinitelly sell the idea of "they zerged us, but we are by far more skilled and can pwn any smaller clan and deffinitelly the legit ones, can have gludio or schuttgart, any fort and raid tiat if we are lucky". That wont work, top botters want to be in the top clan, and nothing can stop that from happening, 1k or 6 k connections at time.
You have to PvP for exp ? Yeah, but you get red and bots return, or hero driver comes to pk you and then brez it's bots.
Nope, botting is killing the game, no matter how you try to justify it.
We have a crippled game and will remain like this if nothing changes, however, some will still like it the way it is and will try to navigate between the bot protection systems and have their game in an ever emptier server. At this rate, better empty server and PvE than playing cheater's game. Just consider bots as invincible NPC, sometimes aggro, sometimes passive, depending on luck, report and go on with your game and gang. It is not ideal, but at least is bearable, and this game is very good even only with the PvE part and an ocasional siege which can provide some fun.
M
I made a Q at 50lvl or something.As a reward i got 1o.ooo Adena.
Yes...1o.ooo miserable Adena at 50lvl from a Q.
The teleport from the town it costed me 25.ooo Adena.
And you wonder why ppl ebay?
Cause there is nothing in this game fixed corectly,so that you can "survive" without depending to others.
P.S.Oh,i forgot to mention that the Q was 1-time...no repeatable........................................ ....... ..... . ...
if you have 1 acc then you have options
1. ***
2. join clan that will help you (if you're active and good of course)
3. play the market
that's pretty much it, you won't make any money if you solo or party with people in mini parties where you will have to share profits.
if you have multiple accs, well then you will make more money from drop and quests (like ketra/varka quests) and from drop (try IoP for fire stones for example). There are some other obvious ways too (hint : TW)
So as you see you don't have to ebay to get more money in game. Instead of giving money to the bots (by ebaying), you can give them to NCsoft, by paying for more accounts, to get the same result (and even better if you're smart). Which is also more legit way. Looks like a win-win to me. (except for the whole playing MMO part of course)
I made a Q at 50lvl or something.As a reward i got 1o.ooo Adena.
Yes...1o.ooo miserable Adena at 50lvl from a Q.
The teleport from the town it costed me 25.ooo Adena.
And you wonder why ppl ebay?
Cause there is nothing in this game fixed corectly,so that you can "survive" without depending to others.
P.S.Oh,i forgot to mention that the Q was 1-time...no repeatable........................................ ....... ..... . ...
Ppl ebay because they are lazy. This game is not supposed to be easy. It is already 20 times easier than in the beginning. I remember in c3 took me 2 months to get level 25.
As for the money, i was counting my thousands.
My artisan was leveling using a voodoo doll to stun till level 25 and that weapon was a gift. No shadow items were in the beginning, no newbie buffs, no free tp till level 40, shall i go on ?
I managed to make money by spoiling with my artisan bspsd recipe cause making a spoiler was too long, dressed in my ng and using the voodoo doll, I was dragging the orc suppliers on the road in a place where they could not go back and call fiends and was killing for 2-3 min spoiling till they got spoiled, after getting a few recipes i was starting the soul and spirit ore business, going to dwarven town which was tax free at that time and bringing to sell in giran making a few adenas each.
The game is starting to be too easy. Ebayers are still here, they also bot so they dont need clan, dunno how PvE is, raids, kamalokas, they just want to ffwd to level 80 and then join the top botter clan to pwn noobs. Once there will find out there is no clan life, ppl hate each other, there is a high turnover from ppl leaving the game and more bots joining, you dont really get to know more than yout perma party, you get killed a lot while AFK, you get angry some other botter got AQ or Zaken so you go buy your own, leave clan and bot some more, then you go oly level 85 fully geared to get owned back and forth, then you realize you need more time to learn how to fight, once you manage to get basic skills, it is probably too much frustration to put up with this ****ing game so you quit and go play CS.
No, ebaying and botting does not only ruin the game in general, it ruins YOUR game, brings frustration and other bad feelings when it is supposed to bring joy and fun.
Yet, most ppl are doing it... If they cant abstain, I think GMs should step in and help them have a fun and healthy game.
M
The 2 major sides that was created lasted 2-3 weeks and then they merged and became one.
What will prevent it from happening again and again?
Nothing as that is exactly what will happen again and the smaller ones who just climbed up a bit after finding a balance in the mess will be back to point squaire.
Only way I see to buckle a little of that is for the smaller independents to group up in a third side...But hey that be in a perfect world... :s
Nothing as that is exactly what will happen again and the smaller ones who just climbed up a bit after finding a balance in the mess will be back to point squaire.
Only way I see to buckle a little of that is for the smaller independents to group up in a third side...But hey that be in a perfect world... :s
That is happening in Franz. Our side (loose alliance of alliances) is controlling 3 castles. We pulled out 120+ chars last sieges.
Out of 3, 2 alliances are doing PvP also, and they are the largest ones. There is also a majority of legit clans in this side and one alliance that allows some bots, so you can find a broad range of clans inside, from 100% legit (exping with foreign ppl is strictly controlled so no tainted exp is earned) to clans that allow bots in some conditions. I think this can happen in every server, just need someone to work hard and long for it.
M
Ebayers are still here, they also bot so they dont need clan, dunno how PvE is, raids, kamalokas, they just want to ffwd to level 80 and then join the top botter clan to pwn noobs. Once there will find out there is no clan life, ppl hate each other, there is a high turnover from ppl leaving the game and more bots joining, you dont really get to know more than yout perma party, you get killed a lot while AFK, you get angry some other botter got AQ or Zaken so you go buy your own, leave clan and bot some more, then you go oly level 85 fully geared to get owned back and forth, then you realize you need more time to learn how to fight, once you manage to get basic skills, it is probably too much frustration to put up with this ****ing game so you quit and go play CS.
No, ebaying and botting does not only ruin the game in general, it ruins YOUR game, brings frustration and other bad feelings when it is supposed to bring joy and fun.
Transferring isn't stupid, so don't say so just because your own experience with transfer didn't work out. I transferred and I'm much happier now, so are the rest of the ppl who came with, which was a lot of us.
If you transfer to create a balance, it's not a cop out at all, it's actually the answer to the one-sided server problem. Just because you continue to be bored sitting at the tip top of your completely one sided server, don't look down on those who actually still have balance elsewhere. We went and merged into the underdog side and made it strong enough to compete very well with the established top clan, and there are now real sieges and daily pvp.
First of all, I can base my opinion on my experience, so I can say it is a dumb option, especially when considering the overall situation on most of the servers. Single transfers really arent the answer to fixing what is wrong with the game. Especially when it's the famous mud slung at someone probing the problems.
I did not join the tip top clan on the new server, btw, just to keep the record straight. I joined an underdog, because I missed that from Lionna. Being the underdog is pretty fun, if you ask me. Being the overlord clan is pretty frustrating and boring... I had kind of enough of that on Bartz.
Perhaps I should have transferred to Devianne, as my friends wanted me to, but I made the choice for Phoenix. AND maybe the difference would have been great if TD as a clan would have transferred over. What you guys from Aria did was a great idea.... but you transferred as a unit. You are only having fun because of that, I'm pretty sure :) so though it was technically a single transfer, it wasn't really.
I made a Q at 50lvl or something.As a reward i got 1o.ooo Adena.
Yes...1o.ooo miserable Adena at 50lvl from a Q.
The teleport from the town it costed me 25.ooo Adena.
And you wonder why ppl ebay?
Cause there is nothing in this game fixed corectly,so that you can "survive" without depending to others.
P.S.Oh,i forgot to mention that the Q was 1-time...no repeatable........................................ ....... ..... . ...
Actually, the structure of L2 requires that u depend on other people. Not saying that the reward for that quest was equal to the effort and expense, and most of the L2 quests are tedious and unrewarding, which is pretty much why I abandoned doing them early on. They sure stepped up that in Aion, where doing quests is what gets you good gear and good rewards, and virtually everyone does them.
I did not join the tip top clan on the new server, btw, just to keep the record straight. I joined an underdog, because I missed that from Lionna. Being the underdog is pretty fun, if you ask me. Being the overlord clan is pretty frustrating and boring... I had kind of enough of that on Bartz.
Perhaps I should have transferred to Devianne, as my friends wanted me to, but I made the choice for Phoenix. AND maybe the difference would have been great if TD as a clan would have transferred over. What you guys from Aria did was a great idea.... but you transferred as a unit. You are only having fun because of that, I'm pretty sure :) so though it was technically a single transfer, it wasn't really.
No kidding. *sigh*
@Mao. For the most part yeah but not always. You can be smart about it.
That is happening in Franz. Our side (loose alliance of alliances) is controlling 3 castles. We pulled out 120+ chars last sieges.
Out of 3, 2 alliances are doing PvP also, and they are the largest ones. There is also a majority of legit clans in this side and one alliance that allows some bots, so you can find a broad range of clans inside, from 100% legit (exping with foreign ppl is strictly controlled so no tainted exp is earned) to clans that allow bots in some conditions. I think this can happen in every server, just need someone to work hard and long for it.
M
Nice for you but problem is Sayha ain't Franz...And on my server there is but one monopoly...A wee bit harder to get things interesting when you are opposed with a handful independents towards an army of zergers.
Then again...It takes but one mind to stire the hope of the few...Who knows.
Anyways end of this part of the discussion as this is off the topic :D
i would re word that... nc games depend on other accts not ppl..... they thrive on making the ppl oriented player need partys and the anti social ppl like me need accts lol
Two Servers = One very alive game ? Umm nope cuz all the 80+ will join 1 clan on these 2 servers and then stick the alts,bots and whatever else they have in thier alt clans. Look at what happened on Phoenix.
Some Big clans all joined Nova instead of doing like your thinking. Staying on thier own 2 feet and pvping everyone on the server for a very alive game. So I don't see it happening.
Especially when people post here on the boards that they own everything and then won't break thier own clans up and pvp each other ,so they can have thier PVp.
but it would be so difficult to meet pple and interract...
Yes,cooperative game.And LII is not dying.
One fact : At the moment the shops in Giran are the half(maybe less) that they used to be before 1-1.5 year.When some old players saw it,they asked what has happened to the the server?
Simply,no new players subscribe to the game,with the rate that ppl abandon it(banned,bored,other games,rl)
In a year we will pay other ppl to join us in a party.Try to cooperate then.
The economy on my server seems to be improving (sayha). For example, over the weekend my Giran Dwarf was unusually busy both buying and selling. I sold large (hundreds) quantities of quite a few b-grade key mats. I sold a small stack of fine-whites at a nice price, and I had plenty of other transactions.
Gato, despite your great knowledge of the L2 game mechanics, I sometimes think you have a bit of a negative outlook. You are always trying to make L2 seem like it is in bad shape. I remember five years ago seeing 'doom and dying' posts just like yours, people were saying that the game had less than six months to live. That was FIVE YEARS AGO and we are still rockin' along with new expansions being released for free. However, I suspect that we would be in better shape than we are now if some people would quit being so negative.
I find life to be much more pleasant with an upbeat attitude.
The economy on my server seems to be improving (sayha). For example, over the weekend my Giran Dwarf was unusually busy both buying and selling. I sold large (hundreds) quantities of quite a few b-grade key mats. I sold a small stack of fine-whites at a nice price, and I had plenty of other transactions.
Gato, despite your great knowledge of the L2 game mechanics, I sometimes think you have a bit of a negative outlook. You are always trying to make L2 seem like it is in bad shape. I remember five years ago seeing 'doom and dying' posts just like yours, people were saying that the game had less than six months to live. That was FIVE YEARS AGO and we are still rockin' along with new expansions being released for free. However, I suspect that we would be in better shape than we are now if some people would quit being so negative.
I find life to be much more pleasant with an upbeat attitude.
Though it will surprise many (I tend to be glass-half-empty guy), I agree with this.
Reality is what it is--but the total demise has been predicted for a long time.
So what are we REALLY talking about here? Global destruction? End of humanity? World wars? Famine? Nope. We're talking about a computer game.
It is fun, complicated, emersing, and updated as noted with free content with good regularity. Is it perfect? No--but then there are a lot of companies out there spending a LOT of time and money trying to produce the "perfect MMO" and no one seems to have accomplished that yet!
I think overall NCSoft has a nice platform. Not well developed (at least not in a coordinated manner) and a bit schizophrenic with support that is poor within the industry. Everyone on the planet knows it is bot-laden.
And with all that it is still a fun game to log into and there are still things to accomplish while playing with friends.
At the end of the day every subscriber makes the same decision--is this worth $15.00 one more month or not. A good % seem to be saying that it is, even while they acknowledge it could be improved.
After all, this isn't a prison sentence. Those who are thoroughly disgusted will quit playing. It's exactly like every other product in every other market on the planet--as long as someone sees 'value' it will exist. Lucky for us there is a massive Korean market and we get to ride along on updates/upgrades.
I still think of the game as challenging, can still find goals to pursue, and still love the friends I play alongside of in the game. Frustrated at times? Yup. Disappointed other times in NCSoft? Yup.
Still worth my $15.00 though.
~D~
I cant know how long you have been playin the game... but if all the servers were to merge into 1 Euro and 1 US this would b bad.
as stated before.. you will have all the 83+ people join into one clan, (most likely Nova) and they will just run around stomping on all the little clans that cant get it into their heads to form up into 1 major clan and actually provide a challenge, because everyone wants their little insignificant non-factor low s-grade filled clan to be the next "superpower".
You will then find that you have a good 30-40% of this server population botting up to 81+ in order to try to compete with the elitist clan, which is going to translate to most people that server has low population because of low clan turn outs for seiges.. when this is not the case everyone is just botting.
Every server has had that 1 clan that dominated it, or 2 clans that fought eachother tooth and nail over every raid/pvp/hero/castle. either way. when server mergers 1st came out every server saw its powerhouse clan getting ready to transfer to Bartz cuz that was gonna be the epic PVP server. Turns out most people went to Bartz. and it was SO populated you didnt leave town without a full group, or 2, or 3, or 4, 5, 6 etc. there was NO GRIND there was no RAID that didnt precourse 4-5 hours of PvP. the server was so populated everyone fought and never stopped fighting becuase every xp spot was taken. and eventually it was deduced that u botted up on your server, then transferred to Bartz, where you then quit after a few months.
Now you have all the clans that botted up to be "new powerhouses" after all the clans left for Bartz, and now these new powerhouses have moved to Pheonix. the "new cool place" to transfer to and quit 2 months later...
in some MMO's its ok, especially when an MMO is just starting off and you have hude disparity between average lvls of players, so you have ppl xping in lowbie spots. but nwo you just have everyone Jockying for 80+ xp spots, which after lvl 82 are limited to HB and IoP.
Epilogue would change a lot of this but in the end merging all servers to one WOULD kill L2, because people would get far too frustrated w/ their progress in the game. You think your line for getting a "clan boss jewel" is long now? add 2000 new players to your server...
all the little clans that cant get it into their heads to form up into 1 major clan and actually provide a challenge, because everyone wants their little insignificant non-factor low s-grade filled clan to be the next "superpower".
this is a key issue... most all legits/neutrals/wanna-be-leet-pvper-bots are all fractured into little clans that individually can't do anything. and a lot of it is just that each little clan leader just HAS to have his own clan and doesn't wanna cooperate or merge with other clans due to pride or whatever, even if they COULD possibly do something if they all worked together. there are also the true carebears who just don't want to pvp anyway, no matter how high level they get.
Big clans can share leadership between several people, usually between the leaders of the clans that have merged in.
I cant know how long you have been playin the game... but if all the servers were to merge into 1 Euro and 1 US this would b bad.
as stated before.. you will have all the 83+ people join into one clan, (most likely Nova) and they will just run around stomping on all the little clans that cant get it into their heads to form up into 1 major clan and actually provide a challenge, because everyone wants their little insignificant non-factor low s-grade filled clan to be the next "superpower".
You will then find that you have a good 30-40% of this server population botting up to 81+ in order to try to compete with the elitist clan, which is going to translate to most people that server has low population because of low clan turn outs for seiges.. when this is not the case everyone is just botting.
Every server has had that 1 clan that dominated it, or 2 clans that fought eachother tooth and nail over every raid/pvp/hero/castle. either way. when server mergers 1st came out every server saw its powerhouse clan getting ready to transfer to Bartz cuz that was gonna be the epic PVP server. Turns out most people went to Bartz. and it was SO populated you didnt leave town without a full group, or 2, or 3, or 4, 5, 6 etc. there was NO GRIND there was no RAID that didnt precourse 4-5 hours of PvP. the server was so populated everyone fought and never stopped fighting becuase every xp spot was taken. and eventually it was deduced that u botted up on your server, then transferred to Bartz, where you then quit after a few months.
Now you have all the clans that botted up to be "new powerhouses" after all the clans left for Bartz, and now these new powerhouses have moved to Pheonix. the "new cool place" to transfer to and quit 2 months later...
in some MMO's its ok, especially when an MMO is just starting off and you have hude disparity between average lvls of players, so you have ppl xping in lowbie spots. but nwo you just have everyone Jockying for 80+ xp spots, which after lvl 82 are limited to HB and IoP.
Epilogue would change a lot of this but in the end merging all servers to one WOULD kill L2, because people would get far too frustrated w/ their progress in the game. You think your line for getting a "clan boss jewel" is long now? add 2000 new players to your server...
l a w l
Some very good pointers there. + 1 from me to these
LOL +1
this is a key issue... most all legits/neutrals/wanna-be-leet-pvper-bots are all fractured into little clans that individually can't do anything. and a lot of it is just that each little clan leader just HAS to have his own clan and doesn't wanna cooperate or merge with other clans due to pride or whatever, even if they COULD possibly do something if they all worked together. there are also the true carebears who just don't want to pvp anyway, no matter how high level they get.
Big clans can share leadership between several people, usually between the leaders of the clans that have merged in.
This is a very valid point. Whatever update it was, I think Interlude, that forced the 12-clan alliances to reform into 3-clan alliances had doom spelled all over it. Though the numbers were the same (clan sizes were adjusted, etc) the merging of 12 clans into 3 was a devastating change to L2. Though in theory the leadership can be shared between several members, there is always forced several smaller factions in clans. It is too bad the units that the bigger clans were split into never really have formed much of a purpose, other than the application of a few different clan skills here and there.... and a pain in the a** to find somone in clan within them.