THIS IS NOT ABOUT LVLING USEING 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS OR BOTTING IT IS ABOUT LVLING WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE NCSOFT EULA THANK YOU....
ok i wanna know something...
we afk store sell and buy, afk craft gear
we leech tw badges,
leech xp, and money from being afk during tw,
leech fame off of tw,
use euphamisms like OOP instead of self afk buffers
but as soon as someone even mentions afk lvling, its a mortal sin and ur the scourge of the earth?
plz remember disclaimer above.
I am talking about ur in ur clan party, one member decides to go afk. say doctors appt. why is this the only time that he sould either leave party or log off?
its ok to gain money over night in store while u sleep but not xp in a normal clan party where the clan member is different time zone?
why did this come to be? seems to me as long as no one in party has a problem, and no 3rd party programs are being used its not illegal...
why do we as a community condemn this but not condemn sleeping stores and craft shops?
What you ask is based on the toon and clan and what your definition of "afk" is and the answer could invalidate your entire post.
For example:
1 - "Bathroom Siege or Kitchen Siege" for most people this is ok since you will be back shortly while in party regardless of what kind of toon it is - for me if you are "gone" for a long time, I will train you so that you have a free SOE to town or kick you from party. Before any of you ask, yes, I have done this before to clan members especially the ones that said "oh I will be back in two hours do you mind..... ".
2 - For the TW, Castle Seige fame farm... this is a 'grey area' to some point. I say this since being 'dead' is not against the rules nor is 'sitting and watching' against the rules either, then both are ok.
3 - Craft/Buy/Sell shops - this does not even come close to any meaning of "afk" since it is how the game works and the only way you can do any of those three things, EXCEPT for if you have a toon or toons that help you craft/sell/shout/ect when you are not there unless you are using in game macros.
4 - OOP buffers, that is not against the rules, if some level 85 buffer wants to help an academy toon by just buffing and then following the toon around then there is not an issue.
Now since you said your disclaimer and ruled out any 3rd party apps, etc... then there is no reason for the community to condemn, the actions you stated.
do u ever hear a crfter in town shout "im syr afk crafting i have to do x?"
also sryy but afk means away from keyboard.
so its ok to have cleint up, be playing lineage by ncsofts standards(actually conected) but u physically ar away from keybaord. but only in shop mode?
which is it? are we against away from keybaord connections or not?
my point is this shouldnt be condemned. pppl shouldnt have to "be sorry my son needs to go to the dentist" thats condemning. like i said we dont say sry afk crafting do we?
oh and btw afk shops is not game mechanics.. ud just rather lvl than sell lol ( i know ths cuz i physically sat infront of my screen 4-5 hrs a day for 3 months straight watching my ssa shops instead of lvling LOL)
when you are dead on siege fields or sleeping shop mode, nobody else is really involved but you.
when you are in party and then just go afk, the other people have to put in more work/consumables to make up for your share, and get less XP/Adena because you're in party. If you werent in party they would spend same effort and consumables, but get more reward in return in terms of XP/hour and adena, so it is not fair to expect another player to do your work.
while when youre in shop mode or dead on siege grounds, nobody is working for you. the PvP in siege field would have been there regardless of you, and nobody is getting less fame because you are dead there. same goes to shops, nobody is putting any kind of effort into you running your shop at night, so nobody is loosing anything.
If I am in a party and someone wants to go AFK for a bit (usually they are clan members, since I don't party outside the clan often) I don't mind. I've actually towed a clannie in party for almost 4 hours once, just because it didn't bother me at all. Heck, if someone 'has to run to the store', I tell them just to move somewhere safe so they can still gain a bit of XP.
If it's a harder area, then maybe I'll advise them to scroll, but that depends on the party composition, the area, etc.
ok so it has to do with expenditures effort or game wise....
hmmm i find it interesting...
so inother words even though we pay the same money / month, we are still judged (like kindergarten)
"A" for effort?
why cant we not judge at all?
and as far as expenditures, somme ppl play having the same expenditures whether there are other ppl in party or not. so rly thats up to the person and or party to decide. (i remember a time way back u were kicked outta party if u used shots LOL)
"Shots," way back long ago, "are for the rich or the cheaters." Shots, so I've heard, were not as readily accessible back then as they are now. Unfortunately, the rich have always been accused of cheating by those who are not rich. How times have changed... well, not really. Even recently, I've heard stories of people running around attacking shot spammers because, "If you can afford to spam s-grade shots then obviously you cheat!"
"Shots," way back long ago, "are for the rich or the cheaters." Shots, so I've heard, were not as readily accessible back then as they are now. Unfortunately, the rich have always been accused of cheating by those who are not rich. How times have changed... well, not really. Even recently, I've heard stories of people running around attacking shot spammers because, "If you can afford to spam s-grade shots then obviously you cheat!"
Really? Imo this guy will give me a free pvp point...
I believe he was speaking of A) people who need to go to the restroom for 5 minutes vs B) people who want to go afk 2 hours for pure leeching. I believe it is person B he is condemning. There is nothing wrong with having to go for a few minutes when nature calls.
I've had experiences where people think they can just get up and leech afk for a while (autofollow), they came back to no party, I think a few have come back and found they were dead.
I've had friends tell me they need to log for an hour, sometimes I tell them to just autofollow me. But, even my friends might end up dead if I didn't give them permission to leech.
I, too, have been in situations where I've needed to run to the store for 30 minutes, but I was told I could just sit and leech. I won't leech without permission because I find it rude, and I expect others to show me the same respect.
My first clan had a rule, "You may not ask to be power leveled, but if you are offered you may accept."
I think the idea is What's rude vs What's not rude, but this is highly subjective.
I believe that the way that the OP framed the question makes it pointless. He (or she) starts out by stating that we cannot base our arguments on the most relevant part of the question.
The EULA is relevant. Why? It is the basic framework of the game. When you break it you are cheating. Every time you log in you click the 'I Accept' button. Therefore, when you break the EULA you are also breaking your word, you are a liar.
The OP's framework is roughly equivilent to saying: "Let's debate whether or not it is all right to leave a restaurant without paying...but you cannot discuss property ownership or laws about fraud or stealing or other of society's rules." Since the rules of society would be the core of the issue, such a debate is only intended to excuse the OP's behavior or to advance their point of view.
I'm sorry Mr. OP, but I have to award you the little trophy that says:
why do we as a community condemn this
We don't. As long as both sides are in consent, and no 3rd party program usage, IRL money transfer and/or account sharing is involved.
DISCLAIMER....
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LVLING USEING 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS OR BOTTING IT IS ABOUT LVLING WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE NCSOFT EULA THANK YOU....
ok i wanna know something...
we afk store sell and buy, afk craft gear
we leech tw badges,
leech xp, and money from being afk during tw,
leech fame off of tw,
use euphamisms like OOP instead of self afk buffers
but as soon as someone even mentions afk lvling, its a mortal sin and ur the scourge of the earth?
plz discuss....
Using the above disclaimer that there are no EULA violations, botting or anything like that going on, the only way that AFK XPing (Leeching, power leveling, whatever you want to call it) is a "mortal sin" is if the party members deem it to be a mortal sin.
I have been in clans where that was perfectly accepable with the groups permission. Others gave you 1 or 2 buff rounds and if you were not back by then you were kicked from party. So as long as you are not violating the EULA, AFK leeching is 100% acceptable to NC Soft. Your party members may not like it, but you will not get "ban hammered" for it.
Having re-read the OPs post I have a feeling he means, why is it ok to do these things but botting is not ok. Botting is against the rules, but I don't think that's what he's talking about. I think he means, "Why are these things not as taboo as botting itself?" It's all highly subjective. Some people don't like multi-boxers at all because they feel multi-boxers prevent others from enjoying the game fully. I, personally, do not like how you can go to a siege ground and die and collect fame while dead.
grr pet hate of mine is tw farming - ofc im probably just envious that ppl can get nobel so quick and dont have to suffer the boredom and pain of camping toi bosses n lvling ur sub ><
as to why we cant bot no, i am not speaking at all about botting.
i like foodstuffs comment.
its not ok to ask to be powerlvled, but if it offered u may accept.
its just that i find it funny that offering it in most situations is being condemend. i offer to power lvl ppl all the time, but im ostracised all the time for it lol
im just trying to figure out why i get ostracised for it hehe
I've never heard of people being condemned for offering to power level someone. I don't like to be power leveled, and I hate it when people assume that's what I want when I ask for a group because I play an OL. When a friend offers to power level me, I may get offended based on the above, but I won't condemn him for it.
yep it does because for some reason ppl think thats this creates a us vs them atmosphere in clans.
take this example....
bish a in clan b has a chioce....
go with a party where they need his heals but his xp, and drops are split between 9 ppl. Also chance of dying, and can be very stressful.
or he can come with me where its a little less xp, but since i rarely need heals, he becomes my pickup bish, gets decent xp, great drops, and great adena generation. Now since im on for about 10hrs a day, doing the same party in same place, its easy for him to get on xp for his desired amt of time, get off, and have gaind xp, drops and adena. So this becomes advantagous for ppl who dont have much time to play but would like to get somewhere in gear, money and lvls. Add to this i can pr the group at any time back to town, restock supplies and pr the group back to the same room with the same group (i have 5 summoners and 2 gatechanters) u dont need to even think about if u go afk that i have to protect u .
now ppl who need the bish cry foul and kick me because i give ppl one advantage, all the game has to offer but with little effort. hence why i say condemed. lol
I wasn't arguing against you, just pointing out my own experiences.
Some people get mad when I don't want to pvp for them, they think I'm supposed to because I'm an OL. Those same people never want to help me pve though, again because I'm an OL. What right do those people have to expect me to pvp for them if they've never helped me pve?
It needs to go both ways. I'm more than willing to help others, even if it slows me down. Some people simply don't want to help anyone, especially if it slows them down.
Some people are nice, some people aren't... And some people simply haven't grown out of the "I want what I want when I want it!" stage.
My take on this varies according to a few things..
my mood, the attitude of the other person, who they are, and do they make a habit of it.
I have had people in party say "afk 2 mins mom is calling me" and they go and come back, this could happen a few times in a couple of hour XP session, it's fine.
I have had a RL friend say he needed to pop the the shops or accept a delivery of food, this is fine (he was away 15 mins).
I have had people AFK to smoke/get coffee, this is fine
I have had people afk to go to bed, meet their girl, watch a film. - they get kicked out of party. If I am going to spend my adena/time/shots to XP, then why cant they.
Our clan has a wide range of XP activity - from those who grind 5+ hours a day, to those who can do a couple of hours a week - everyone has their own plans and targets, but if you dont want to XP, then leave party.
grr pet hate of mine is tw farming - ofc im probably just envious that ppl can get nobel so quick and dont have to suffer the boredom and pain of camping toi bosses n lvling ur sub ><
I hung out at the Giran Arena to see who was doing the "farming"...(actually exploiting the game). I was shocked..... it has changed my opinion on a Clan that i thought was very legit and therefor above reproach....and confirmed my opinion of a few others that i thought were worthless scum..hahahahah.
Well its just a game i suppose...but i would much rather be legit and get 20 badges a month if i decide not to participate.
I hung out at the Giran Arena to see who was doing the "farming"...(actually exploiting the game). I was shocked..... it has changed my opinion on a Clan that i thought was very legit and therefor above reproach....and confirmed my opinion of a few others that i thought were worthless scum..hahahahah.
Well its just a game i suppose...but i would much rather be legit and get 20 badges a month if i decide not to participate.
I dont agree with you about the farm thing ppl do in Arena or Coliseum, i dont disrespect anyone doing it and i did it once too, the real problem in TW is the way it works, if all the reliqs would be reset to their respective castles, there would be a lot of fun.
Right now the big force in my server, and i mean like 70% of the ppl (including the "censored") have all reliqs in Giran for ages, and have a massive force defending that with all is pets there, maybe they would get them from the other castles anyway, but for that they would need to work and not jump on us with 2,3,4 or 5 parties with heroes and pro skilled ppl on CP Auto Spamm.
But talking about this last issue is the dead promisse of this forums or NC Support.
Honestly by good days are way back in C3 and after any game patch when like 40% of the ppl dont even log in cause they have no crappy idea how even to play their toons, but ofc NC check them and their clans, you i should have registed my nickname on forums as SarcasticAngel
whats the diference between farming and someone running onto the siege grounds naked over and over again? it is game mechanics.. the only diff is that we own 4 accts, there fore 3 farmers and 1 badge getter. It is working as intended... no one says any thing about the badges u get from killin a lvl 61 on the field when ur 85? its the same as a 61 killing a naked 61 .
i once saw an 85 titan sweep an entire field of ppl... would u say thats exploitive farming? lol
or how about this one... killing off an alt clan for rep points?
or this one creating toons every 7 days for rep points? they exploitive too?
I hung out at the Giran Arena to see who was doing the "farming"...(actually exploiting the game). I was shocked..... it has changed my opinion on a Clan that i thought was very legit and therefor above reproach....and confirmed my opinion of a few others that i thought were worthless scum..hahahahah.
Well its just a game i suppose...but i would much rather be legit and get 20 badges a month if i decide not to participate.
wow oO how is TW-farming illegit again? If it's an exploid I suggest you go try and report them - I'm sure the GMs will apprecite a good laugh.
About the original topic: There's nothing wrong with leeching as long as all parties are in clear agreement. Personally, I don't like leeching, but certain classes almost have to leech to be xp'd up in a half-way reasonably fast manner. If someone goes afk and stays afk I won't kick or kill them however - that's just mean. I'll ask them what happened - if they have a good excuse I'll let it slip, if not, I just won't party them again. I've gone through the ahead and summoned in EEs to PR people I like that fell asleep on me :D It's just a game - having fun with your friends is more important then a few 0.0x% and a few k adena...
As for hogging the live buffer/healer/ect.... it's obvioulsy up to that buffer/healer unless it's a clan-event. I wouldn't want to xp in the half-leech mode you describe - doesn't sound very challanging or fun, but if your bish friend enjoys playing that way that's great.
take this example....
bish a in clan b has a chioce....
go with a party where they need his heals but his xp, and drops are split between 9 ppl. Also chance of dying, and can be very stressful.
That's where the fun of playing a Bishop is.
depends on what u play for... my wife and i fight if l2 is stressful... therefore id rather keep my household in peace then worry about the condemnation of a community of gamers who live 1000's of miles away lol
wow oO how is TW-farming illegit again? If it's an exploid I suggest you go try and report them - I'm sure the GMs will apprecite a good laugh.
I guess you could easily say that about botting...the GMs do nothing about that either...do as you please there are no repercussions.
You are supposed to "EARN" badges because you are a brave little soldier and are killing the enemy not because as a clan you kill each other or because you kill your own family of Alts.
Call it what you will (probably you are calling it 'smart play') i think its patetic that people want to get rewards at the price of their personal honor...game or no game.
Way back in the day there was a clan on Devianne called Fate...made up of the highest of players. They were way ahead of the curve...it was found out that to get there and to stay there they exploited the game and the EULA's to their full extent. I said to myself they will never last...the honorable legit section of the server will not allow it. I was wrong...more and more their standards or lack thereof is the way the game and player base has evolved.
I have to agree with Tulp, if you're not fighting on siege grounds to earn your badges then you don't deserve them, as well if you're not fighting to earn your Ward then you don't deserve it. If you're going to the Arena to farm badges then you are, essentially, exploiting a loop hole. It may not be against the EULA but it is, technically, an exploitation. The way TW is done currently is not the way it was intended to be done.
There are many things that are not technically against the rules and are exploited so. For example, certain mixtures of chemicals cannot be transported internationally so the loop hole is to transport the chemicals separately (not mixed), thus no law is broken. Even if the intent was to combine those chemicals once passing the border, it is often difficult for border police to do something about it as, technically, no law has been broken yet.
grr pet hate of mine is tw farming - ofc im probably just envious that ppl can get nobel so quick and dont have to suffer the boredom and pain of camping toi bosses n lvling ur sub ><
no hes probably envious of people who make 1k+ badges per tw translated into 12+ mastery books each 2 weeks lol. it scales linearly as you add more accounts (need to make a few 40+ chars on each though) since all party members get the same badges no matter what they do.
also you don't have to farm at arena/coliseum where people deny you kills - quests work in any place on map but you lose 1/4 of normal death exp loss.
I have to agree with Tulp, if you're not fighting on siege grounds to earn your badges then you don't deserve them, as well if you're not fighting to earn your Ward then you don't deserve it. If you're going to the Arena to farm badges then you are, essentially, exploiting a loop hole. It may not be against the EULA but it is, technically, an exploitation. The way TW is done currently is not the way it was intended to be done.
you're entitled to your own opinion but don't try to present it as other people's, like game develolpers. who knows what they actually intended? this "loophole" is obvious to the 2 year old from the very description of the process of tw. so if they didn't think of it then they probably did not care.
just look at oly nowadays. lots of twinks do their 9 matches to get 20k points, they don't even try to compete, they lose most or all of matches but they still get reward. and THAT is what developers intended since they changed to this from system which required some competitiveness to receive reward. so in oly case, what looks like exploit is actually indended.
There are many things that are not technically against the rules and are exploited so. For example, certain mixtures of chemicals cannot be transported internationally so the loop hole is to transport the chemicals separately (not mixed), thus no law is broken. Even if the intent was to combine those chemicals once passing the border, it is often difficult for border police to do something about it as, technically, no law has been broken yet.
this example has nothing to do with the game. if they wanted to, they'd fix the code to make tw quests only work at siege grounds for example, or keep track of people killed - so you'd need different people for quests, or something like that. At the very least they could officially announce this to be an expolit and ban people who were reported/found using it, but they didn't do even that. and we're talking about 1 year old system here, so obviously developers are perfectly fine with current situation.
I have to agree with Tulp, if you're not fighting on siege grounds to earn your badges then you don't deserve them, as well if you're not fighting to earn your Ward then you don't deserve it. If you're going to the Arena to farm badges then you are, essentially, exploiting a loop hole. It may not be against the EULA but it is, technically, an exploitation. The way TW is done currently is not the way it was intended to be done.
Thats totally wrong, other way instead of TW for level 61 and above it would be to level 80 and above. This is only the first thing, if you play on one faction server and you dont belong to that faction you would end just giving up on the TW.
I dont care who is going to be nobless even without having a subclass, or who is getting some jewel, or whatever else they can get with that, but i would care if the system worked only to one side, on my server theres like 90% of the clans unable to do anything in Castle Areas, maybe you belong to some sort of those factions, or you live in a good server i really dont know, but till the TW are not changed to reset all the reliqs, like it should be from the start, the system is a crap bad designed, on my server same castle have them all for ages!
But once more off course many just say to this, omg carebeers, noob's and passing some sort of a image "hey im a pvp, pro, awesome brave, great clan vision, bla bla bla", but i would love to see you play here where the big clans joined all and merged themselfs, into a big force splitted by 6 clans who try to take everything.
And dont even try to tell me, that i dont know how to play, or the others clans work bad or without teamwork, you dont do a S*** against ppl who give you one nuke, and who kill you without care about XP if you mess with them.
So the only point about TW is the fact of the reliqs dont get reset every TW start, that would divide ppl, and make them more fun, about the farming whoever that can do it just use it, after all all those braves clans are doing exacly the same, the difference is while my clan is doing TW with 2 parties, we get assaulted by those high factions, even if i still looking at that as funny, specially when they end up getting 3 or more parties just to kill us with shinning heroes lol.
No i dont do it bad, others dont do it bad too, just many are doing what they can, or the only option to have some reward at the end and not look at TW just as something to boost more who is already boosted!
I really hate ppl with one side vision, they look at themselfs and don't think about the whole thing, i was against TW sinc ethe 2nd one on the servers, when i got that would be easy work for one side only, took some time but it end up that way, that just show how game developers don't think and dont prevent to make harder for one faction to control everything, so my suggestion from years was having the castle sieges at the same day and same time, and for TW have the reliqs reset back to their starter castles.
you're entitled to your own opinion but don't try to present it as other people's, like game develolpers. who knows what they actually intended? this "loophole" is obvious to the 2 year old from the very description of the process of tw. so if they didn't think of it then they probably did not care.
Thus, "Botting exists because NCsoft does not care, and it's been proven it was intended because it happens." What? You can look at the rules and see TW was intended to be a kind of "Capture the Flag" that allows more people to participate than just castle owners, but with rewards for those who participate. People have found loopholes however and now exploit them.
just look at oly nowadays. lots of twinks do their 9 matches to get 20k points, they don't even try to compete, they lose most or all of matches but they still get reward. and THAT is what developers intended since they changed to this from system which required some competitiveness to receive reward. so in oly case, what looks like exploit is actually indended.
It states in the rules, and therefore not a loophole, "Players can receive a reward regardless of their win/loss record if they have participated in more than 9 Olympiad matches". If you're permitted by the rules to lose and still gain then no loophole is being exploited. Exploiting rules and exploiting loopholes are two different things.
this example has nothing to do with the game. if they wanted to, they'd fix the code to make tw quests only work at siege grounds for example, or keep track of people killed - so you'd need different people for quests, or something like that. At the very least they could officially announce this to be an expolit and ban people who were reported/found using it, but they didn't do even that. and we're talking about 1 year old system here, so obviously developers are perfectly fine with current situation.
In game or real life is irrelevant... My point was that people will find loopholes and exploit them, and those exploitations are not always against the rules.
I will admit a possibility that the rules say you may simply go to the arena and farm, but I recall no such rule. If there is infact no such rule then people are merely exploiting a loophole that is not against the rules. The fact that it has not been fixed proves nothing, save that it has not been fixed.
Thats totally wrong, other way instead of TW for level 61 and above it would be to level 80 and above. This is only the first thing, if you play on one faction server and you dont belong to that faction you would end just giving up on the TW.
If territories don't want to work together to take wards back from the reigning territory that's their problem.
I dont care who is going to be nobless even without having a subclass, or who is getting some jewel, or whatever else they can get with that, but i would care if the system worked only to one side, on my server theres like 90% of the clans unable to do anything in Castle Areas, maybe you belong to some sort of those factions, or you live in a good server i really dont know, but till the TW are not changed to reset all the reliqs, like it should be from the start, the system is a crap bad designed, on my server same castle have them all for ages!
Grow in power. I don't belong to a reigning clan, I still participate however because I intend to grow in power. If the 90% you speak of don't work together then, yeah, they won't accomplish much. It's not about the number of participants or your levels or your gear or any combination of said things, it's about the effort you put into it. If you need more people then make friends and allies. My clan is in an alliance with 2 other clans, we have more allies than just those 2 clans however.
Gaining Noble through TW is not a loophole, it's permitted by the rules. Farming badges in arenas w/o actually participating in TW is an exploitation of a loophole.
But once more off course many just say to this, omg carebeers, noob's and passing some sort of a image "hey im a pvp, pro, awesome brave, great clan vision, bla bla bla", but i would love to see you play here where the big clans joined all and merged themselfs, into a big force splitted by 6 clans who try to take everything.
I play on Bartz, TD is the reigning power. TD locks down w/e they chose to whenever they chose to. The only way to get past them is to fight them. If you do fight them they may gain respect for you and let you pass, or they may just continue to fight you.
And dont even try to tell me, that i dont know how to play, or the others clans work bad or without teamwork, you dont do a S*** against ppl who give you one nuke, and who kill you without care about XP if you mess with them.
Why are you going into fights alone? Let's assume you're not going alone. I get one-shot all the time. Yes, it's frustrating, but I'm going to do the best **** job I can to heal people in my clan/party before I go down. Learn to work better in groups.
So the only point about TW is the fact of the reliqs dont get reset every TW start, that would divide ppl, and make them more fun, about the farming whoever that can do it just use it, after all all those braves clans are doing exacly the same, the difference is while my clan is doing TW with 2 parties, we get assaulted by those high factions, even if i still looking at that as funny, specially when they end up getting 3 or more parties just to kill us with shinning heroes lol.
What's the point in gaining a ward if they are reset and thus lost? Why should I fight for something just to lose it? Better, why should I try to get the ball in the basket if I know the score is gonna be reset to 0 so the opposing team can feel better?
No i dont do it bad, others dont do it bad too, just many are doing what they can, or the only option to have some reward at the end and not look at TW just as something to boost more who is already boosted!
NC never boosted me, nor am I on top. I, however, have fought extremely **** hard to get where I am.
I really hate ppl with one side vision, they look at themselfs and don't think about the whole thing, i was against TW sinc ethe 2nd one on the servers, when i got that would be easy work for one side only, took some time but it end up that way, that just show how game developers don't think and dont prevent to make harder for one faction to control everything, so my suggestion from years was having the castle sieges at the same day and same time, and for TW have the reliqs reset back to their starter castles.
I believe effort is the key to winning. Why should people win without effort? In order to be a winner there must be losers. I lose, and quite often at that. What you want is to be a winner despite having actually lost. The society we live in where "everyone is a winner" has degraded people's mentality. You cannot lose and win at the same time. Nearly everyone on these boards wants things just handed to them.
People need to learn to work in teams, they need to learn to put forth the effort. Don't blame others for limitations you place on yourself. People need to raise their expectations of themselves.
I have to agree with Tulp, if you're not fighting on siege grounds to earn your badges then you don't deserve them, as well if you're not fighting to earn your Ward then you don't deserve it.
Who are you to decide what people deserve?
People found a legit way to screw ward holders? So what, it's good for people and benefits the whole server (by lowering the prices of TW products). Ward holders don't ask people if they deserve to have their fed heroes, and feeding the heroes doesn't benefit the server in any way.
Thus, "Botting exists because NCsoft does not care, and it's been proven it was intended because it happens." What? You can look at the rules and see TW was intended to be a kind of "Capture the Flag" that allows more people to participate than just castle owners, but with rewards for those who participate. People have found loopholes however and now exploit them.
botting (using 3rd party programs to automate gameplay) is against EULA, so there's a rule against it, even though it might not be enforced enough. There is no rule against TW farming.
It states in the rules, and therefore not a loophole, "Players can receive a reward regardless of their win/loss record if they have participated in more than 9 Olympiad matches". If you're permitted by the rules to lose and still gain then no loophole is being exploited. Exploiting rules and exploiting loopholes are two different things.
by default rules are how the game works unless stated otherwise. are you a developer (who was intending something else and was not able to fix it for more than a year) ) to state otherwise?
In game or real life is irrelevant... My point was that people will find loopholes and exploit them, and those exploitations are not always against the rules.
1. if there is a mass exploitation that threatens people, usually new rule is introduced to address that. it has not happened in case of TW even though almost everyone does it, for about a year now.
2. this is a problem if this exploitation threatens something, or precludes a crime that is against the rules. which rules do people who "exploit" TW break after doing it??
I will admit a possibility that the rules say you may simply go to the arena and farm, but I recall no such rule. If there is infact no such rule then people are merely exploiting a loophole that is not against the rules. The fact that it has not been fixed proves nothing, save that it has not been fixed.
agreed on that point. They had the spirit of the rules in mind.
but there is also a side that says niether winning nor losing is good. Its about having fun.
as long as u are not complaining about not winning or losing(since ur not trying to affect the win or the loss u cant say ne thing) and ur having fun, the real issue is does it affect the enjoyment of the game for others?
as u said foodstuffs,
ppl should not ask to be powerlvled but if offered u may accept.
in the first case said person is ruining the game for another person, and in the second part they are helping the other person enjoy the game more.
same as tw's does tw farming help or hurt the enjoyment of those trying to take or defend wards?
since most ppl who farm are nonfactor pvpers, then they do not and never will affect the defence or taking of tw wards, it does not affect the enjoyment of the tw.
If "PvP" feeding had been against "the spirit of the rules", NCsoft would have found a way to tell it to the playerbase in those 4 years since the oly feeding started.
If territories don't want to work together to take wards back from the reigning territory that's their problem.
One force have all castles but Gludio and Shuttgart witch is currently under my clan, and 70% of the server sign Giran to avoid being killed by the top force.
Grow in power. I don't belong to a reigning clan, I still participate however because I intend to grow in power. If the 90% you speak of don't work together then, yeah, they won't accomplish much. It's not about the number of participants or your levels or your gear or any combination of said things, it's about the effort you put into it. If you need more people then make friends and allies. My clan is in an alliance with 2 other clans, we have more allies than just those 2 clans however.
I have a alliance, not big as we would like but we do our best, and if i can place my imput to help ppl on TW i do it and i dont see any form of exploit on that, just because others are not caring about try fight opose forces my clan as a few others will not just sit there and watch the things going always for the same side, if you consider that as a exploit i dont, i dont do anything on Coli / Arena too, but i really dont care who is doing it.
Why are you going into fights alone? Let's assume you're not going alone. I get one-shot all the time. Yes, it's frustrating, but I'm going to do the best **** job I can to heal people in my clan/party before I go down. Learn to work better in groups.
No im not alone, but this last siege we got near 3 parties instantly killed in one shot by the higher faction nukers, how would you manage that?
Heals? You dont heal anyone being one shotted, im a GK CP/HP is not low as almost all the others, i dont need to know to work as a team better than we do, but trying useless fights against some ppl is kinda useless if you ranged attack you give them one hit in your best choice, and what i talk is some ppl who dont really care if they even lose 10% at 85, but that dont happen, if we fight them and win they come more and more and more, this TW they assulted us 3 times and got their wiped, so they jump with the proudly heroes and lvl's 85.
You can be fighting someone the best you can, but when your clan lose more then 2% at level 80 i dont believe you will keep having a great will from them including yourself to keep fighting them.
What's the point in gaining a ward if they are reset and thus lost? Why should I fight for something just to lose it? Better, why should I try to get the ball in the basket if I know the score is gonna be reset to 0 so the opposing team can feel better?
If TW were reset every start there would be 300% more competition or even once / month, right now is just having all the crap in one place and near 600 guys protecting it, many times even not caring if you in a siege zone.
NC never boosted me, nor am I on top. I, however, have fought extremely **** hard to get where I am.
Same here, and working as CL a huge part of my hard work is going directly to my clan.
I believe effort is the key to winning. Why should people win without effort? In order to be a winner there must be losers. I lose, and quite often at that. What you want is to be a winner despite having actually lost. The society we live in where "everyone is a winner" has degraded people's mentality. You cannot lose and win at the same time. Nearly everyone on these boards wants things just handed to them.
I dont want things given to me, my clan, or anyone in game, i want more competition, all you say is TW farm is not a legit action, but having all stuff at one place and sitting there watch if anyone risk to even look at them is legit?
OFC that is part of the TW so is a legit action, but the way you say to work for TW go please tell it to any lvl 61, or you will tell ok you can participate but you cant do a s*** there since 99% of the active participants are S Grade ppl?
People need to learn to work in teams, they need to learn to put forth the effort. Don't blame others for limitations you place on yourself. People need to raise their expectations of themselves.
I dont blame others, you are blaming others saying farm is a unlegit action, if we dont worked as team i would not still in same server since day 1, we never would be wining a Siege or breaking zones usually closed to many players.
You talk about a thing as a exploit cause you dont like ppl doing that, i see TW as a failure thing since they never reset, all i say is to reset, you win them you keep them for 2 weeks or lets say a month, but after you need to work again for that so others may try to fight you, right now TW in my server with the ppl not able to farm those excluding a few of us randomly friendly pvp would be something completly useless for the majority, but once more that part is not a exploit or a benefit...
If NCsoft were to say "Oly Farming is bannable" then they might as well stop Oly completely. For the sake of argument, how do you prevent Oly Farming?
If NCsoft thinks that PvP cooperation (as in Oly feeding) is against the spirit of the game, they indeed need to stop Oly completely. If they haven't done it so far, they don't think so.
And there are other PvP cooperation events in the game, such as Aerial Cleft.
Some people seem to be defending their L2 philosophies on the basis of being competitive in the game. Because there is a dominant group of 80 - 85/80/80/80 players that have mostly broken the EULA"s to get there, any exploit (and as far as i'm concerned cheating) is acceptable because they have to be competitive too.
I think that is the philosophy that has led to our current state...where mostly "anything goes as long as i win because of what the other guy did".
NC did not intend for people go to into an Arena and kill there own clan...they did not intened for them to kill your own Alts....period.
But NC don't give a crap about what the player do or don't do. Why would they not change TW then?? Honestly give me a break!!!!!!!!!!
My philosophy is to play the game the way it was intended...and you don't have to have a degree in rocket science to figur it out.
Because there are no rules that specifically say you can't kill clanies and alts does not make it right...but if that is your philosopy about the game (do whatever to be more competitive [excepy break the EULAs]) then so be it...But its not mine.
The debate is kinda verging on the ridiculous ... I m sorry. What ncsoft or the game/feature designers intended is unknown to us UNLESS they put it in the rules OR build some sort of mechanism ingame that only allows you to do what they intended. Pirotesa will come around soon and tell you game designers intended everybody to only play one account and therefore boxing is against the rules.Did ncsoft intend to make say a tank with no pole masteries exp better with a pole than it does with a weapon it has masteries for? Probably not. Are the tanks that pole cheating? Don't think so.
Because there are no rules that specifically say you can't kill clanies and alts does not make it right...but if that is your philosopy about the game (do whatever to be more competitive [excepy break the EULAs]) then so be it...But its not mine.
Tulip...how do you know what NC intended? How do you know what they care about and don't care about?
You observe things, you interprete them based on your biases (like we all do) and they you assume what NC thought or intended. But you don't know.
My observations here don't mean I disagree with your conclusions (or that I agree with you), simply that you are stating as facts things that are your assumptions.
Some people seem to be defending their L2 philosophies on the basis of being competitive in the game. Because there is a dominant group of 80 - 85/80/80/80 players that have mostly broken the EULA"s to get there, any exploit (and as far as i'm concerned cheating) is acceptable because they have to be competitive too.
I don't have to be competitive in L2 - neither I really want to. But if there is a part of the game where I can participate and be helpful to others (including, but not limited to, my clannies), why shouldn't I?
NC did not intend for people go to into an Arena and kill there own clan...they did not intened for them to kill your own Alts....period.
I don't care what they intended. They are such complete failures in putting what they intended into the game, during all this time I play it, that it's not even funny.
But I do care about playing by rules. First, if there are no rules, there are no game. Second, cheaters are not that nice people to play with.
The debate is kinda verging on the ridiculous ... I m sorry. What ncsoft or the game/feature designers intended is unknown to us UNLESS they put it in the rules OR build some sort of mechanism ingame that only allows you to do what they intended. Pirotesa will come around soon and tell you game designers intended everybody to only play one account and therefore boxing is against the rules.Did ncsoft intend to make say a tank with no pole masteries exp better with a pole than it does with a weapon it has masteries for? Probably not. Are the tanks that pole cheating? Don't think so.
If you think one of the things that we are to do is Kill clannies in an Arena so that we can get the same rewards that people get on the seige grounds killing enemies...then i guess i'm speechless...other than to say..... enjoy the way you play...guess those rewards are top notch...huh.
Btw sorry to have verged on the ridiculas there shaggy :)
I don't have to be competitive in L2 - neither I really want to. But if there is a part of the game where I can participate and be helpful to others (including, but not limited to, my clannies), why shouldn't I?
I don't care what they intended. They are such complete failures in putting what they intended into the game, during all this time I play it, that it's not even funny.
But I do care about playing by rules. First, if there are no rules, there are no game. Second, cheaters are not that nice people to play with.
When you come to ground zero, personal honor regulates the way we play. BY now life should have taught you what is right and wrong.
A lock (rules) only serves to keep an honest man/woman out.
I dont see why the TW's are such a big deal. Yes the extra stats are nice for owning a territory ward. Grats to those who took them the first time. But now, it is just another way for the "haves" to show their dominance over the "have nots" and give them even more of an advantage.
Personally, I would like to see the Wards reset to their home castles at the start of the TW. It would make things a lot more interesting.
Also, I belive that the TW are a fun way to have some PVP without losing a castle or xp, but there are way too many people (on all servers, it seems) that take this game just a bit too serious. Rember all, it is a game and it is supposed to be fun. If it is no longer fun for you ... then why are you still playing?
If you think one of the things that we are to do is Kill clannies in an Arena so that we can get the same rewards that people get on the seige grounds killing enemies...then i guess i'm speechless...other than to say..... enjoy the way you play...guess those rewards are top notch...huh.
Btw sorry to have verged on the ridiculas there shaggy :)
you don't get the same rewards, I get 120 badges per TW cause I do a couple of catapults plus I 've got upgraded merc status, guy in giran arena gets 30-40 badges per TW killing alts. What do I care. Reality is he can't come to the castle cause there's 100 83+ waiting for him there, he has no hope of taking any wards away, so he sits in arena, farms his kills then goes to a castle and sits dead there farming rep. It's all that guy can do, and I will certainly not impose my faux morality on him since the freakin game allows him to do that and nothing above. Like I said before, your opinion is valid for you alone, same way that Pirowhatever's opinion is valid for him/her ... you/he/she try to impose said opinion on others people start laughing.
When you come to ground zero, personal honor regulates the way we play. BY now life should have taught you what is right and wrong.
A lock (rules) only serves to keep an honest man/woman out.
Yep, I'm innately better than you. Is that what you wanted to hear? :)
you don't get the same rewards, I get 120 badges per TW cause I do a couple of catapults plus I 've got upgraded merc status, guy in giran arena gets 30-40 badges per TW killing alts. What do I care. Reality is he can't come to the castle cause there's 100 83+ waiting for him there, he has no hope of taking any wards away, so he sits in arena, farms his kills then goes to a castle and sits dead there farming rep. It's all that guy can do, and I will certainly not impose my faux morality on him since the freakin game allows him to do that and nothing above. Like I said before, your opinion is valid for you alone, same way that Pirowhatever's opinion is valid for him/her ... you/he/she try to impose said opinion on others people start laughing.
On behalf of the myself and maybe some of the forum i would like to express my sheer awe at the number of badges you supposedly get. And two catapults...my my..i've only seen botter clans do that.
Also your rhetoric on how you don't care what the poor legit guy does ...does truely show the type of benevolent person you are....i had tears in my eyes from your boundless generosity
I'm sure you are also a great success irl and will shortly expound on that.
you don't get the same rewards, I get 120 badges per TW cause I do a couple of catapults plus I 've got upgraded merc status, guy in giran arena gets 30-40 badges per TW killing alts. What do I care. Reality is he can't come to the castle cause there's 100 83+ waiting for him there, he has no hope of taking any wards away, so he sits in arena, farms his kills then goes to a castle and sits dead there farming rep. It's all that guy can do, and I will certainly not impose my faux morality on him since the freakin game allows him to do that and nothing above. Like I said before, your opinion is valid for you alone, same way that Pirowhatever's opinion is valid for him/her ... you/he/she try to impose said opinion on others people start laughing.
he can still get more if he does quests for all 7 chars on account, which is going to be about 250 badges. and yes it's possible, I did it twice now :) oh and multiply that by the number of accounts since in party all get the same quests...
anyway mastery books price is plummeting now anyway (just as I predicted) so soon there won't be much point in doing it. plus in next update they are raising level of kepa source mobs and increasing the drop rate so it's going to fall to the level of codexes after that.
Actually we hear that all the time with just about anyone you talk to...
But that's what you were trying to say... or is't that? :confused:
Why did i delete the rest of my answer...lol you figure it out :)
You tried to argue, but found that you were arguing against your own feelings?
The problem with philosophical debates is that most people have not raised themselves from their base instincts, and thus are incapable of seeing the possibility that someone else may be right. No matter what the discussion, most people simply cannot handle that someone else may have a varying opinion. To watch certain people in here scramble over themselves, as they have, has been comical. You have your opinion, I have mine, he has has, she has hers, they have theirs, we have ours, people need to get over this fact. The purpose of sharing philosophical ideas is for self-growth, or at least the possibility of. Usually what happens though, especially on these boards, is nothing more than simple shouting matches. The funniest thing about all of this is the people who get offended the most are the ones who realize there is indeed something wrong with their own views, but are afraid to change them because it's all they know.
To the people who disagree with my view on TW farming, I am not telling you to change your ways in any manner, the OP asked for our opinions and I gave mine. I intended for a debate but it is obvious people can't handle it. I have spent a good portion of my life learning various philosophies only to have them shattered and have to relearn others. Try having an open mind and you'll see something for more than just what it is.
An opinion does not need to be fact nor does it need to be backed by facts. However, when you state your opinion as fact then you need facts to back it up. But, when someone states their opinion people should be able to recognize that is all they're doing, whether they're stating it as fact or not. You do not need to say, "That is my opinion", rational people will recognize it as so.
My whole point so far, on the previous posts, was that exploiting loopholes is wrong and I stated that in various ways. I never told anyone to stop, nor did I tell anyone they're going to Hell for it. But the people who blew up about me having a differing opinion did offer some good laughs.
Someone is going to read this and accuse me of something, so first I will say, work on your reading comprehension and communication skills.
personally? I don't mind if the 'afk' is short(ish). Unlike Olo, I don't want to tow a clanmate around for 4 hours.
It's not a matter of condemning it or thinking it's wrong--it's a matter of feeling responsible for that other toon's safety (which I wouldn't appreciate). Also, I have to admit I have a "be responsible for your own toon" bias which I'm kind of touchy about.
I think your toon in party should be attended by you. If you can't, then cya till you can pay attention.
Often (not always) the party could benefit from you actually contributing--it's why you are supposedly along in the group. So contribute. If you can't, then let the party structure itself as best as it can for success without having to rely upon your whims of playing.
No one has ever leveled my toon for more than a moment or two. Essentially every single exp I've ever gotten on any toon was while I sat at the keyboard.
To answer the OP--one reason akf for extended periods of time is frowned upon is because it 'seems' to be a short, slippery slope from there to the point where I log in your toon while you're gone and drag it along--until you expect me to! In short, it's a short step from this 'incidental' powerleveling to tactics and behaviors that can and do violate the EULA.
No thanks all around. You want exp, then sit at the (edited) keyboard like I do. You need to be gone for 6 hours then too bad, guess you'll get your exp later when you can play. It's hard enough for me to get exp for my main and it's not my job to level you up.
Sorry, uncaring perhaps but outside of "a few minutes" (let's say 10 minutes or so), I'm not interested in having your toon leeching from me.
i defiitely respect ur opinion drac but a little mis informed if u read my post im not worried bout the saftey of ur char... i have 2 gatechanters and 5 summoners ... there fore i can port back and forth ne chars in my prty any where i am playing therefore no need to nescessarily be attentive to ur own char.
i agree its a small step away from the playstyle that is against the eula, but i also ask this question:
u obviously are unhappy aboput allowing a clanny to leech for extended periods...
but no one has adressed the fact that im unhappy unless i am allowing a clannie to leech :)
so basically should i stay unhappy just because some ppl think its "unethical" ?
About AFK leeching: it comes down to consent - if everyone agrees, it's fine - but personally, I tend to not agree with it. It seems unfair to me that 8 people have to spend their resources to level someone who is not helping (not buffing, summoning, healing, fighting, nuking, spoiling, etc), and get diminished xp for it (because party xp is shared, and tehrefore reduced according to the total number of people in that party). Basically, you're in party with me and 7 other people, and you go afk for 2 hours, that means you are costing me adena and xp.
About TW farming: I agree it's an exploit. And the only way to justify it today is due to all the other exploitations people have taken advantage of before. Simply put, we do it because we can, and because others have done worse before us. And it's not hurting anyone (if it was, I wouldn't do it). Now, it's true that this is not what was intended in the rules, but neither was swapping castles between main and alt clans, and neither was 2-boxing (you were supposed to give love to your live healers, not buy another account so you could solo).
Some things are designed one way, and then when they are put in effect they take a whole different shape. That happens with everything in life, even marriages and kids (everyone who is a married or a parent knows what I'm talking about). And then you have to worked it out, keep it as it is or change it, if it's becoming unfair. If you weren't supposed to kill people in your own clan, they shouldn't have made it possible for you to sign individually for TW.
Stupidity, the fact that you're willing to let people leech is good on your part, it means you're willing to help out. You have to be careful though in that some people will take advantage of it, and not in a good way. A teacher, a long time ago, taught me the difference between using someone and misusing someone. My clan leader will sometimes allow people to leech, but if he feels that's all you want and aren't really appreciating what's being done then he may not allow you anymore.
i agree foodstuffs but i also live by 1 other motto... u are only being taken advantage of if u FEEL u are being taken advantage of.
take 2 couples.
1st couple both work, both make same money, both feel they are contributing equaly. so they have no problems.
2nd couple. 1 works 25% of the time, other works 75% of the time. They agreed to this at the begining. Since they agreed to eachs responsibilty, they believe that evry thing is fine. Outsiders would say to the 75% person, u should leave. U are being taken advantage of. They become misreable, because thye wonder why ppl treat them this way. They are perfectly happy and dont see any problem. Should they?
because the 75% person does not FEEL they are being taken advantage of why bother changing?
thats my point. I dont feel im ever being taken advantage of. So what u speak of is only ur perception not reality. U PERCIEVE i might be taken advantage of. But in reality i dont feel that way :)
after pondering about this the only way i might be taken advantage of is if the person im pwrlvling is using a 3rd party program then i might be hit lol