I am a Dwarf (FS) with a Cardinal sub (See sig). Before making 80 on my Cardinal sub I stood out like a sore thumb in PvP, A Dwarf in Majestic Robe set just screams "KILL ME NOW". When I got my Dynasty robe set I found that it used the exact same visuals as the Dynasty Heavy set so I thought that maybe enemies would be confused, but I was wrong. I still get lots of attention so I decided to try something.
I put on my Dwarf weapon while on my Cardinal sub and joined a scrum. Dressed thusly I was visually indistinguishable from my FS gear. I immediately had 2 daggers and a tank on me as usual.
I put on my normal FS gear while still on my Cardinal sub. I immediately had 2 daggers and a tank on me as usual.
Then I changed to my FS with normal gear, got no love until the end.
Next I put on the Dynasty Robe and AM (Full Cardinal Gear) while still on FS and got no love.
Majestic Robe set and AM (pre-80 Cardinal gear) on FS and still no love.
The last one was a surprise, I figured that someone out there wasn't using EULA-breaking 3rd party programs and would react to an obvious sub-classes Dwarf as a major threat. I even used the FS "Cure Bleed" skill that looks like a heal and nobody bothered to kill me.
The use of auto-targeting programs is even more common than I thought, which is saying quite a bit.
Given this, I get a chuckle at most every hero shout. The big bad killahs need 3rd party programs to PvP, not just to get to high level but to PvP once there. I wonder why they play the game at all given that the computer does all the work.
Nice experiment Mae!
So those 3rd party programs see your class beyond the gear you wear..., easy to figure out who cheats this way :)
Even more funny is that those 'big bad killahs' say that the game isn't for 'carebears', to me this seems very 'carebear' to use programs to make a game play for itself.
Yea those 3rd pgm killed whole mastery of building traps.
1. One lonely person attracting 3-4 enemies while behind corner was waiting full party...
2. Wearing lower level set/gear to surprised enemy, to keep him thinking what easy target he got...
3. One low level (1lvl mostly) taken to main clan as trap.
Decoy was wearing nice set + gear.
When you had 1 side war with annoying enemies that was ultimate weapon.
Decoy was staying watched carefully from distance by 3-4 clannies.
Single base slap performed by enemy on decoy was equal to 1 red enemy...
Free gear!
P.S. I have sub FS on elf mystic .. and you know they also KNOW it when I'm dwarf ... Really, sometimes some honest player asking me : "Are you SWM?"
It really is ridiculous, from all I have seen so far it is a HUGE exception if you see anybody from the large pvp clans who does not use 3rd party tools or at least has somebody in the party who does, so that people can assist.
Always funny to see when people know EXACTLY what (sub)class you are on, even thought the equipment does not give it away. Or when people know exactly when to stop hitting somebody before they go red. Or when you just /target somebody at a siege and they start running towards you (or when the one you targetted is a healer, you have nukes flying in your direction one second afterwards, even before you have DONE anything except target).
People do not even hide it anymore. I've been asked to party with people who are involved in a big war, and when I said "nah, I don't want to get involved", they said "don't worry, we have radar and know when they are coming".
Seriously, that spoils the whole fun of pvp and makes people who do not use those tools not even try anymore. What's the point of fighting enemies who have cyborg enhancements.
It really is ridiculous, from all I have seen so far it is a HUGE exception if you see anybody from the large pvp clans who does not use 3rd party tools or at least has somebody in the party who does, so that people can assist.
Always funny to see when people know EXACTLY what (sub)class you are on, even thought the equipment does not give it away. Or when people know exactly when to stop hitting somebody before they go red. Or when you just /target somebody at a siege and they start running towards you (or when the one you targetted is a healer, you have nukes flying in your direction one second afterwards, even before you have DONE anything except target).
People do not even hide it anymore. I've been asked to party with people who are involved in a big war, and when I said "nah, I don't want to get involved", they said "don't worry, we have radar and know when they are coming".
Seriously, that spoils the whole fun of pvp and makes people who do not use those tools not even try anymore. What's the point of fighting enemies who have cyborg enhancements.
Nice experiment Mae!
So those 3rd party programs see your class beyond the gear you wear..., easy to figure out who cheats this way :)
Even more funny is that those 'big bad killahs' say that the game isn't for 'carebears', to me this seems very 'carebear' to use programs to make a game play for itself.
It's also a protocol weakness: Why the hell does the other person's client, who's neither in your party nor in your CC nor in your clan, needs to know your current class? Or, for that matter, the skill you're using (instead of "play animation effect <X>"), your gear (instead of "display the following stuff: ..."), who you got in target (instead of "char looks roughly in direction <A>") or your HP/CP?
But how it can read what is your class? The only way i think something can do that is by sniffing the game packets but but wtf? how it can discover what pack to sniff? And if thats possible, cant this produce lag?
But how it can read what is your class? The only way i think something can do that is by sniffing the game packets but but wtf? how it can discover what pack to sniff? And if thats possible, cant this produce lag?
I won't argue that 3rd party programs aren't rampant throughout the game (look in your own house for proof of this), but if you are picking targets by gear and not actions since the subclass system came out, you need to rethink your strategies.
btw I call your test semi-invalid as bandage does not look like major heal and you can't cast bandage on other people.
I won't argue that 3rd party programs aren't rampant throughout the game (look in your own house for proof of this), but if you are picking targets by gear and not actions since the subclass system came out, you need to rethink your strategies.
btw I call your test semi-invalid as bandage does not look like major heal and you can't cast bandage on other people.
If my guys are using these I would still say "ban them". I would also be very very very mad because one of my main complaints with our PvP outings is that I'm down within 5 seconds with nobody at all even targeting the toons that killed me, much less hate-ing them off me. If my guys are using programs and still fail to even try to protect their support, thats epic fail.
I left out what I did on the field each of the other times, because I didn't think it was all the necessary to say... but here it is: In all cases, I ported in and moved away from attackers and stood still. I added the Bandage skill in the final case after nobody attacked me, so I thought that I might cause some honest player to react to what looked like a heal. Too bad there wasn't one on the field...
Tabbi no offense but every end game clan has those ppl so it just means urs forgot to set the box defend healer or they're ego maniacs and can't be bothered to defend their healer as the same progs that does their targeting also keeps them alive with hp/cp spam.. worst case it's their way of saying your dumb for not using the progs as well as it has anti backstab etc. functions making it harder for daggers to 1 shot a robe user..
a funny incident awhile ago during siege for me was when I kept killing 1 guy in robes of whom it was known he had a cardi sub got all emo on me in pms saying he wasn't on his cardi sub and if I could please remove him from my kill priority list lol.. I always try to kill robe users first so hah..
anywayz to sound like a broken record (check my posts of the last Month) to stop this we would need the RU Off GM system which instantly takes care of all those *****/sniffer/ranger/walker users..
RUOFF ban policy is: if you'll try to use bot or radar, you get 3 days ban for first time and for next tries 7/14/30/FOREVER.
to give an example at start some users there got temp ban for using l2control and when they noticed ranger wasn't on the ban list yet they used that but the prog got added the next day and bam they were all facing their 2nd temp ban..
I would love to see this happen here too, even if that means most of all top clan players will spent the next week enjoying a temp ban and then re learning how to pick their own targets ^^"
Maybe I am dumb for not using these programs, but I still will refuse.
None of that answers the point of playing the game at all if you use these illegal programs. I have heard people say they bot to get to end-game PvP faster, but if you also automate the grind AND endgame PvP, what is the point of paying your $15/month/account when the computer is doing everything for you. Kinda expensive for blustering in Hero Shout...
Also, if some GM would like me to recreate this experiment while they observe, I would all too happy to help.
how do you feel about auto aim in fist person shooters?
how come Auto aim is more common in an MMO?
it's strange how people are about the subject.
i had someone show me where i could get my very own version of radar...
i read about it, looked into it, and decided that it was a break of the EULA, and let it go without another thought.
how do you feel about auto aim in fist person shooters?
I go out of my way to kill those people and keep them busy. But sadly I can't do that in this game. In FPS a veteran character could die from toon that was just created, depends on the player behind it. With MMOs... not so much...
Well for STARTERS, would it really be too much to ask that NCsoft put into their schedule to spend 4-6h every 2 weeks to monitor sieges + territory wars, and everyone that participate in them at random? cant be that hard, certainly not for sieges....
Time to wake up and sniff out the 3rd party cheaters for ONCE??
Well for STARTERS, would it really be too much to ask that NCsoft put into their schedule to spend 4-6h every 2 weeks to monitor sieges + territory wars
Given this, I get a chuckle at most every hero shout. The big bad killahs need 3rd party programs to PvP, not just to get to high level but to PvP once there. I wonder why they play the game at all given that the computer does all the work.
QFT...
The only way you know these guys are even in game is the massive amount of mindless ramblings about who've they've killed. Now all they need to do is create a 3rd party application that spews out pre-programmed trash talk 24 hours a day so they don't have to hurt their delicate fingers using the keyboard.
If there's any justice. Omega banned them all before he left.
Isnt much justice in this game, its more tailor made for cheaters than its ever been before.....
1. U cant report automated shouts in towns cus of peace zone.
2. U cant report cheaters on battlegrounds like sieges, so they free to do as they like unchecked.
3. Delusion chamber is the new heaven for botters, its been tailor made for them, u only see them when they are in peace zone, where of course u CANT report them, and when they are inside delusion hunting zone, its been made so u cant target them to report.....
Im not saying u cant report them, u just have to do it manually thru support, which is ridiculous.
But then again, so is the report button it seems so far.
My opinion and perspective is that its how they play, not how I play, so it doesnt bother me, not there is anything I can do about it myself anyway. But just like in any game I find to be beaten by ppl using cheats is no true loss, but to beat them even whilst they are backed by cheats, is an achievement.
So I dont really care, kick their <rear end> anyway and they just suck.
However like you say about computer playing things for you, I see no fun in that. A win would not be my achievement and feel empty. Obviously they like it so are able to throw epeen around, maybe just making up for small things in real life :rolleyes:
Like any game I have more fun and enjoy the game more and take more pride to play by the game rules and win (or even lose) by the game rules. Needing to cheat to me is like a 'spoiler' and I would find that perhaps fun in short term but ultimately lame. Thus I've dont bother cheating in any game singleplayer multiplayer or otherwise, would be like shooting myself in the foot and not enjoying the game as much.
Sense of achievement and pride guys.
But I dont dislike or judge people who do, this is a game its not like a crime. And I get more satisfaction beating such people :) Many probably only do because other people do and there is a strong need to compete in this game; Perhaps such people just need to look inward rather than outward for pride and comparison.
Ncsoft definately seems to have put more efforts this last year or two into cleaning up the game without killing it in regards to botting - but yeh I dont think anything to detect other stuff..? Perhaps like was suggested the several stages of bans for any cheat programs could help in that regard - I'm sure many who currently use them would still play without the cheat programs.
QFT...
The only way you know these guys are even in game is the massive amount of mindless ramblings about who've they've killed. Now all they need to do is create a 3rd party application that spews out pre-programmed trash talk 24 hours a day so they don't have to hurt their delicate fingers using the keyboard.
Though those who used programs got to reach high content sooner, and thus leaving us to be slower to catch up and learn that stuff. I think we'll always be noobs in the eyes of some people who use programs partly because of that but also because once upon a time they didnt use programs, and thus look at it a progression thing (ie: you're a noob if not using program yet).
Some of em probably dont realise we just get more fun and satisfaction from playing it properly than simply pwning with programs so can shout about winning.
The last one was a surprise, I figured that someone out there wasn't using EULA-breaking 3rd party programs and would react to an obvious sub-classes Dwarf as a major threat. I even used the FS "Cure Bleed" skill that looks like a heal and nobody bothered to kill me.
The use of auto-targeting programs is even more common than I thought, which is saying quite a bit.
Common ppl 90% of big clans use 3rd pt programs, I'm bored to see Franz heros frapsing sieges with ranger loaded. they just press f1 f2 f3 and program make all the rest.
The bad think is that they are so proud that they even post the fraps to sow to players how pr0 they are.
I have made the test with 1 lvl flaged char is mass pvp's few seconts after i target a healer boom 50k damage.
As long as Gm team takes no action agains pvp programs, olympiads and mass pvp's will be taken only from cheaters because they just can't die with all this programs.
You have to remember that there's only need to be the MA who has the program if every other DD just assist.
But maybe it's worse than before. I've been taken for a PP more than once in the past due to my Tallum set + mysterious sword. Now that's true that in TW I quickly have friends to pat my back with a sharp object.
If the game ever excluded the cheating mechanisms, as it ought to, then it would be fun enough that it might attract a larger player base. Most honest players get discouraged by the advantages currently accruing to the cheaters.
Those who cheat are the weak players. Using targeting softward, decoding packets, walker, bots...the only people who use those are the ones who are not good enough to succeed honestly.
I have spent close to six years in strict EULA compliance and that has ADDED a great deal of fun to my play, not detracted from it. I have earned my levels and slowly, patiently improved my gears, skills, subclasses and other game items. At sieges I use my mouse to target and move. I die quickly to those cheaters but I have fun. I decided long ago not to trade my honesty and self-respect for some trivial game advantage.
If NCSoft ever perma bans all cheaters, as I optimistically hope, then I will be well set to compete in an honest oly or heal in a top clan of decent players.
If NCSoft ever perma bans all cheaters, as I optimistically hope, then I will be well set to compete in an honest oly or heal in a top clan of decent players.
I seriously doubt oly will ever be honest or realistic.... unless NCsoft find a way to fix the feeding that is defining olympiad today.... I dont see how it can be done tho.
U could make it so if u log in oly, its a draw and both walk away with nothing, as if the match never happend....
But this would not really make a diff, cus then ppl will just feed by killing the other without armor or something.
Not long time ago at some 'other' L2 forum I gave proposition to top warriors.
Arrange 9 vs 9 PvP.
Just one rule.
Set all "support tools" into most sensitive option like:
- auto rez
- auto CP/HP
- auto target
- auto heal at 90% HP
- auto etc.
Cilick first target ... and just watch fight :)
Impressive healers action with instan heals, Rezer rez without any delay, putting Noble, back-stab as most usless skill, Hide_glitch to drop target almost instantly, nukers/DD aiming Healers in 1ns of fight, Tank spamming aggro exactly when cool-down ends, , ... epic fight!
Just take popcorn and watch till MP goes down and SS finish .. or server get maintenance ;)
I guess PvP-PWNOZOR should be happy while they could enjoy his real life...
They used to say as explanation why they do bot :)
But how it can read what is your class? The only way i think something can do that is by sniffing the game packets but but wtf? how it can discover what pack to sniff? And if thats possible, cant this produce lag?
It happened just the other week, everyone was running fine, then all of a sudded, everyone started to lag out to the point of not being able to move as well.
Next thing we know, up comes a party or two of "Clan X". Someone made the comment that the "Bot Warriors" were here and that is what is causing all the lag.
It would be nice to actually play the game on a level playing field. But I do not see that happening anytime in the near future. As another poster said, it makes the legits not even want to try anymore.
Great experiment Tabbie. I will try to see if we cannot sign on your castle this next time and if I can get that to happen, I will make sure I come after you first.
Great experiment Tabbie. I will try to see if we cannot sign on your castle this next time and if I can get that to happen, I will make sure I come after you first.
Unless you are using a 3rd party program you will have to come after my dead body...
Here is my castle siege routine:
1) wait until enemy shows up
2) die
3) tap to castle
4) wait for teleport / re-noble buff
5) repeat
Unless you are using a 3rd party program you will have to come after my dead body...
Here is my castle siege routine:
1) wait until enemy shows up
2) die
3) tap to castle
4) wait for teleport / re-noble buff
5) repeat
Castle siege is FUN!!!111!!!one!!! (rolls eyes)
Maybe you need stronger support, better buffs, and know how to heal yourself? If you are in s80 and dying in 2 seconds as a bishop you are doing something wrong. Oh, I forgot it is the program users fault you can't stay alive.
an fully buffed lvl80 cardi with max resists etc. is still 2 shot at max for any 84+ dagger class with 300 element regardless on if those daggers use a prog to all target her the moment she gets in range or not that fact stands
Maybe you need stronger support, better buffs, and know how to heal yourself? If you are in s80 and dying in 2 seconds as a bishop you are doing something wrong. Oh, I forgot it is the program users fault you can't stay alive.
Read above, I usually draw at least 2 daggers and a tank. It is not unheard of to also have multiple nukes land on me before, during and after these melee toons arrive.
Unless you are using a 3rd party program you will have to come after my dead body...
Here is my castle siege routine:
1) wait until enemy shows up
2) die
3) tap to castle
4) wait for teleport / re-noble buff
5) repeat
Castle siege is FUN!!!111!!!one!!! (rolls eyes)
No, I do not use programs, and it seems like your castle seige is very similar to mine.
1. Target the attacker (If I am helping defend)
2. Get the whole party I am in to attack the target
3. Watch the program spam cp/hp pots faster than I can attack the target
4. Watch one level 85/80/80/80 toon slowly take down my whole party
5. Tap to castle
6. Wait for my buffer to die, so I can get rebuffed as i was hit with the cancel stick and all my buffs are gone
7. Rebuff (if I can)
8. Repeat
So yeah Tabbie, I feel your pain.
Speaking of the Hero Cancel stick, that is one item that needs to be removed from this game. It sucks to get hit by that ... no need in even spending the spirit ore on noble, you wont have any buffs anyway.
an fully buffed lvl80 cardi with max resists etc. is still 2 shot at max for any 84+ dagger class with 300 element regardless on if those daggers use a prog to all target her the moment she gets in range or not that fact stands
Not if she uses a program to turn face to the daggers at exactly the moments when they hit :rolleyes:
Not if she uses a program to turn face to the daggers at exactly the moments when they hit :rolleyes:
But then She would not be legit, and as Tabbie has already said, she is going to stay legit no matter what those around her do. Most of us here applaud her for that and are on the same legit path that Tabbie is on.
But then She would not be legit, and as Tabbie has already said, she is going to stay legit no matter what those around her do. Most of us here applaud her for that and are on the same legit path that Tabbie is on.+1
i suppose it wold be funny if two daggers split up and tag team, flanked a target who uses about face... then, when they both attack, who does the bot program turn to? or does it turn face at that exact moment to some how avoid both attacks by that milisecond?