OMG they will never stop to pump daggers and screw pp?
Shield Strike (wtf?)
lvl 40
Paladin, Dark Avenger, Temple Knight, Shillien Knight
Attacks the enemy additionally with a shield. A shield must be equipped.
Challenge for Fate (???)
lvl 83
Phoenix Knight, Hell Knight, Eva's Templar, Shillien Templar
Challenges the enemies [-들 plural] directly in front by arousing their attention. The Tank's own P.Def. and M.Def. is increased by the skill.
Sonic Mastery (interesting)
lvl 40
Gladiator
Increases during regular attacks with a certain probability the charge level of the Gladiator's Sonic Energy.
Force Mastery (op)
lvl 24
Monk
Increases during regular attacks with a certain probability the charge level of the Monk's resp. Tyrant's Focused Force.
Shooting Blow (yeah make them god like)
lvl 80
Adventurer, Wind Rider, Ghost Hunter
Reduces the target's Movement Speed by throwing a dagger at him, her or it.
Dual Blow (yeah make them god like)
lvl 83
Adventurer, Wind Rider, Ghost Hunter
Attempts to deliver a strong blow against a vulnerable spot of the opponent. A Dual Dagger must be equipped.
Multiple Shot (about time to give them some aoe)
lvl 82
Sagittarius, Moonlight Sentinel, Ghost Sentinel, Trickster
Attacks a great number of enemies directly in front. A Bow or Crossbow must be equipped.
Death Stinger (lol the others was aimed to what?)
lvl 83
Sagittarius, Moonlight Sentinel, Ghost Sentinel, Trickster
Launches an arrow aimed to kill. A Bow or Crossbow must be equipped.
Chain Heal (cool)
lvl 83
Cardinal, Eva's Saint, Shillien Saint, Dominator
Restores for the target and at most 10 allied people near the target at most 30% HP. The amount [not percentage] of the restored HP is determined by the hurt person with the most damage and will get less the higher the received damage is. 4 Spirit Ore are consumed. MP Cost: 194, range: 900.
Mass Cure Poison (useless poison is non factor unless for a raid party)
lvl 76
Eva's Saint, Shillien Saint
Cures all party members from high grade Poison as well as worsening[?] Poison.
Mass Purify (cool)
lvl 76
Shillien Saint
Removes Paralysis and Petrification from all party members, cures all party members from high grade Poison and Bleed as well as worsening[?] Poison and Bleed.
Mass Vitalize (cool)
lvl 76
Eva's Saint
Restores the [full?] HP of all party members and cures them from high grade Poison and Bleed as well as worsening[?] Poison and Bleed.
Resist Earth (about time)
lvl 60
Prophet
Increases for a duration of 20 minutes the resistance against Earth-backed attacks.
Chant of Elemental (screw more the pp)
lvl 76
Doomcryer
Increases for a duration of 20 minutes the Elemental properties of all party members. [ì›ì†Œ probably means only the "natural Elements" Fire, Wind etc., not Holy and Dark]
Whisper of Battle (about time)
lvl 60
Swordsinger
Increases for a duration of 2 minutes the Swordsinger's own P.Atk., Power of Critical Hits and Attack Speed.
Deadly Bit (about time)
lvl 40
Swordsinger, Blade Dancer
Delivers a strong attack with one's own weapon on the target.
Sharing Ability (OP)
lvl 83
Soultaker, Arcana Lord, Elemental Master, Spectral Master
Transfers the abilities of the Summoner on the Servitor.
Dimension Spiral (unecessary)
lvl 40
Necromancer, Warlock, Elemental Summoner, Phantom Summoner
Delivers a strong magical attack on the enemy. On monsters [i.e. not in PvP] additional damage is applied.
Aura Blast (unecessary)
lvl 81
Soulhound (male and female), Archmage, Mystic Muse, Storm Screamer
Delivers a non-Elemented attack on the target and the enemies around it, restoring at the same time MP. On monsters [i.e. not in PvP] additional damage is applied.
Aura Cannon (unceessary)
lvl 83
Soulhound (male and female), Archmage, Mystic Muse, Storm Screamer
Delivers a non-Elemented attack on the target, restoring at the same time MP. On monsters [i.e. not in PvP] additional damage is applied.
Arcane Shield (lol now they will get more UDs cause you know, mages must tank...)
lvl 83
Soulhound (male and female), Archmage, Mystic Muse, Storm Screamer
Reduces for a duration of 10 seconds one's own received damage by 90%, constantly consuming MP during that time.
It may be an overhit nuke with a high power and longer reuse, it may be a magic attack with a lower power rating (Inquisitor-like power) that does extra damage to MOBs to put it on par with regular nukes, but not on players (to keep it from being overpowered). I'm interested in the details.
Sonic Mastery (interesting)
lvl 40
Gladiator
Increases during regular attacks with a certain probability the charge level of the Gladiator's Sonic Energy.
Force Mastery (op)
lvl 24
Monk
Increases during regular attacks with a certain probability the charge level of the Monk's resp. Tyrant's Focused Force.
You do realize that these two skills basically do the same thing. How can one be interesting and the other OP? Use one's brain, pls.
Mass Purify (cool)
lvl 76
Shillien Saint
Removes Paralysis and Petrification from all party members, cures all party members from high grade Poison and Bleed as well as worsening[?] Poison and Bleed.
Clan Leader: OMGZ.... we got Madusa'd.
Nuker_01: It's okay, I got my boxed SE here... VROOOOOMMMMZZZ!!!
Everyone: hahaha, pwnd!
An aside: I'm not gonna lie... They mind as well just remove prophets from the game...
And War Cryers... Seems NCSoft is considering Dominator a Healer, now, which is laughable given it's buff and debuff arsenal - compared even to SE, which is borderlining overpowered right now.
It may be an overhit nuke with a high power and longer reuse, it may be a magic attack with a lower power rating (Inquisitor-like power) that does extra damage to MOBs to put it on par with regular nukes, but not on players (to keep it from being overpowered). I'm interested in the details.
You do realize that these two skills basically do the same thing. How can one be interesting and the other OP? Use one's brain, pls.
Clan Leader: OMGZ.... we got Madusa'd.
Nuker_01: It's okay, I got my boxed SE here... VROOOOOMMMMZZZ!!!
Everyone: hahaha, pwnd!
An aside: I'm not gonna lie... They mind as well just remove prophets from the game...
You are not using your brains... jsut compare the attack speed of a tyrant and the ones of a glad and you will understand.
OMG they will never stop to pump daggers and screw pp?
Shield Strike (wtf?)
lvl 40
Paladin, Dark Avenger, Temple Knight, Shillien Knight
Attacks the enemy additionally with a shield. A shield must be equipped.
Challenge for Fate (???)
lvl 83
Phoenix Knight, Hell Knight, Eva's Templar, Shillien Templar
Challenges the enemies [-들 plural] directly in front by arousing their attention. The Tank's own P.Def. and M.Def. is increased by the skill.
Sonic Mastery (interesting)
lvl 40
Gladiator
Increases during regular attacks with a certain probability the charge level of the Gladiator's Sonic Energy.
Force Mastery (op)
lvl 24
Monk
Increases during regular attacks with a certain probability the charge level of the Monk's resp. Tyrant's Focused Force.
Shooting Blow (yeah make them god like)
lvl 80
Adventurer, Wind Rider, Ghost Hunter
Reduces the target's Movement Speed by throwing a dagger at him, her or it.
Dual Blow (yeah make them god like)
lvl 83
Adventurer, Wind Rider, Ghost Hunter
Attempts to deliver a strong blow against a vulnerable spot of the opponent. A Dual Dagger must be equipped.
Multiple Shot (about time to give them some aoe)
lvl 82
Sagittarius, Moonlight Sentinel, Ghost Sentinel, Trickster
Attacks a great number of enemies directly in front. A Bow or Crossbow must be equipped.
Death Stinger (lol the others was aimed to what?)
lvl 83
Sagittarius, Moonlight Sentinel, Ghost Sentinel, Trickster
Launches an arrow aimed to kill. A Bow or Crossbow must be equipped.
Chain Heal (cool)
lvl 83
Cardinal, Eva's Saint, Shillien Saint, Dominator
Restores for the target and at most 10 allied people near the target at most 30% HP. The amount [not percentage] of the restored HP is determined by the hurt person with the most damage and will get less the higher the received damage is. 4 Spirit Ore are consumed. MP Cost: 194, range: 900.
Mass Cure Poison (useless poison is non factor unless for a raid party)
lvl 76
Eva's Saint, Shillien Saint
Cures all party members from high grade Poison as well as worsening[?] Poison.
Mass Purify (cool)
lvl 76
Shillien Saint
Removes Paralysis and Petrification from all party members, cures all party members from high grade Poison and Bleed as well as worsening[?] Poison and Bleed.
Mass Vitalize (cool)
lvl 76
Eva's Saint
Restores the [full?] HP of all party members and cures them from high grade Poison and Bleed as well as worsening[?] Poison and Bleed.
Resist Earth (about time)
lvl 60
Prophet
Increases for a duration of 20 minutes the resistance against Earth-backed attacks.
Chant of Elemental (screw more the pp)
lvl 76
Doomcryer
Increases for a duration of 20 minutes the Elemental properties of all party members. [ì›ì†Œ probably means only the "natural Elements" Fire, Wind etc., not Holy and Dark]
Whisper of Battle (about time)
lvl 60
Swordsinger
Increases for a duration of 2 minutes the Swordsinger's own P.Atk., Power of Critical Hits and Attack Speed.
Deadly Bit (about time)
lvl 40
Swordsinger, Blade Dancer
Delivers a strong attack with one's own weapon on the target.
Sharing Ability (OP)
lvl 83
Soultaker, Arcana Lord, Elemental Master, Spectral Master
Transfers the abilities of the Summoner on the Servitor.
Dimension Spiral (unecessary)
lvl 40
Necromancer, Warlock, Elemental Summoner, Phantom Summoner
Delivers a strong magical attack on the enemy. On monsters [i.e. not in PvP] additional damage is applied.
Aura Blast (unecessary)
lvl 81
Soulhound (male and female), Archmage, Mystic Muse, Storm Screamer
Delivers a non-Elemented attack on the target and the enemies around it, restoring at the same time MP. On monsters [i.e. not in PvP] additional damage is applied.
Aura Cannon (unceessary)
lvl 83
Soulhound (male and female), Archmage, Mystic Muse, Storm Screamer
Delivers a non-Elemented attack on the target, restoring at the same time MP. On monsters [i.e. not in PvP] additional damage is applied.
Arcane Shield (lol now they will get more UDs cause you know, mages must tank...)
lvl 83
Soulhound (male and female), Archmage, Mystic Muse, Storm Screamer
Reduces for a duration of 10 seconds one's own received damage by 90%, constantly consuming MP during that time.
lvl 76
Shillien Saint
Removes Paralysis and Petrification from all party members, cures all party members from high grade Poison and Bleed as well as worsening[?] Poison and Bleed.
After this I must give Trensharo right, SE will be uber :)
The skill can be the same but the effect will be a lot better for a tyrant that gives a gazilion of hits per second, this will turn the tyrant version a lot better.
Its like the pp vs wc/ol mp regen per hit. Suppoused to do the same thing but the orc version owns.
But well its just a opnion we will see when it comes in maybe 1 year....
I can say that I am going a tiny tiny bit emo about everyone getting rush and the likes , from my archer stand point.
But I guess wait and see when it really comes.
The skill can be the same but the effect will be a lot better for a tyrant that gives a gazilion of hits per second, this will turn the tyrant version a lot better.
Its like the pp vs wc/ol mp regen per hit. Suppoused to do the same thing but the orc version owns.
But well its just a opnion we will see when it comes in maybe 1 year....
The PP skill is a change to trigger on hit, and may even have an internal cooldown. The orc version uses a mechanic similar to VR. They aren't the same, and aren't intended to be the same. That's why you're wrong.
Also, even if the Orc and PP versions were the same, the Orc version would be better due to higher attack speed and P.Atk (STR/Soul Cry), anyways.
A mental image of a dorf performing Rush Impact just cracks me up. :D
P.S. Am I glad I've rerolled in time. Kamaels ftw! :p
Though I think that adding two similar non-elemented Aura nukes for lvl 81 and 83 soulhounds and nukers seems a bit odd...
The L2 Devs have thoroughly confused themselves IRT class roles and class balance. The direction they are taking Necros is equally mindboggling.
It's also pretty frickin' sad we have to wait about a whole frickin' year for an innocent Quality of Life change like taking Cursed Bones out of the game. /Sadness
Why remove overpowered skills, if you can give them to everyone :D
Soon all healer/nuker will get Steal Divinity
a few reasons, titan has not had any significant changes, mainly just nerfs. the new olympiad setup will be a larger area like the old olympiad arena(not quite as big). this means that these classes will need a skill to be able to catch up and hit them with damage. also these skills arent overpowered if you have significant stun resists. also remember they won't be enchantable.
nukers get a self celestial that last 10 seconds (well 90% damage reduction). gg for oly
exactly what i was thinking. also they are trying to balance oly away from enforcers. this sucks for those who sneak in 20 or so matches on the last day and steal hero away from someone else. it also sucks because it means i have to get in 70 matches per week, as i would assume my competition would do the same.
Weekly limitations for participating oli (open:70,class:30,team:30).
Increasing numbers registered players for oli to start (open:9=>10,class:5=>10 qq, fortunetly team was lowered 9=>3).
Changes in number of token awarded for topX%. (lowered max, increased min).
To be classified you have to participate in 15 fights.Weekly limitations for participating oli (open:70,class:30,team:30).
Increasing numbers registered players for oli to start (open:9=>10,class:5=>10 qq, fortunetly team was lowered 9=>3).
Changes in number of token awarded for topX%. (lowered max, increased min).
To be classified you have to participate in 15 fights.
Yep cause getting 1 shotting by GKs, Duelists with +30 skills and Destroyers with Vesper weapons is fun and makes nukers competitive in Olympiad?
Other than a few outliners (ridiculously stacked ones)...
you just referenced fully stacked glad/gk/titan. so you must reference the nukers to be just as fully stacked. a fully stacked nuker will take out a titan, not sure about gk/glad these days.
no skills for doombringer and others melee gets all of his main skills and not his disadvantages (low CON) . seriously what drugs do you take on the development team ?
you just referenced fully stacked glad/gk/titan. so you must reference the nukers to be just as fully stacked. a fully stacked nuker will take out a titan, not sure about gk/glad these days.
A Titan with Rush Impact and Disarm? Please read. Try to at least look intelligent.
I'm not so sure about that seeing as how they can 1 shot even a stacked nuker easily with their skills pre-buffed in Olympiad - which is not exactly a hard thing to do. Also, Attribute Attack is getting nerfed, while defense is getting boosted.
A Nuker in ^5 with a 300 Weapon will have the Attribute Bonus of a Nuker in this update wiht a 150 Weapon, but players will be able to stack more Attribute on their gear. It's totally possible that you will be doing only base damage (as if you have no attribute boost), or close to it, on a lot of players.
Also in ^5 there will be pillars in some Olympiad Arenas to LoS Nukers.
A Titan with Rush Impact and Disarm? Please read. Try to at least look intelligent.
I'm not so sure about that seeing as how they can 1 shot even a stacked nuker easily with their skills pre-buffed in Olympiad - which is not exactly a hard thing to do. Also, Attribute Attack is getting nerfed, while defense is getting boosted.
A Nuker in ^5 with a 300 Weapon will have the Attribute Bonus of a Nuker in this update wiht a 150 Weapon, but players will be able to stack more Attribute on their gear. It's totally possible that you will be doing only base damage (as if you have no attribute boost), or close to it, on a lot of players.
Also in ^5 there will be pillars in some Olympiad Arenas to LoS Nukers.
Yea the pillars will be good for canceling casts by timely ducking behind one. Though I must say 10 secs of 90% dmg reduction is pretty big.
On a side note, I'm glad that BDs are getting a physical attack skill, but I'd of loved something along the lines of that SWS self buff (or in the alternative a defensive version of it).
rush is ok (like most of mmo's melee have) but rush impact... :((( why remove the uniqueness of doombringers it's not logical ! (kamael was supposed to be unique in their gameplay: deal great dommages and put confusion on ennemies but die fast)
or instead why they didn't give a special version of Storm Assault skill?
i supposed this skill will be highly nerf in ct3 when they will realize some classes will be over-powered since they haven't been design for this skills.
rush is ok (like most of mmo's melee have) but rush impact... :((( why remove the uniqueness of doombringers it's not logical ! (kamael was supposed to be unique in their gameplay: deal great dommages and put confusion on ennemies but die fast)
or instead why they didn't give a special version of Storm Assault skill?
i supposed this skill will be highly nerf in ct3 when they will realize some classes will be over-powered since they haven't been design for this skills.
no offense, but the skill is currently completely overpowered. enchanting it for time just adds to the annoyance as i rarely see a stun from rush impact being broken by taking damage. i dont fully agree that everyone should have gotten it, but if they didnt disperse it out to everyone it would have been nerfed anyways imo. at least you can keep the usefulness of your skill 2 updates from now
edit: also, the rush impact is an 82 skill for the other classes, so it cant be enchanted with the current system. kamaels will always have the upper hand with that skill since they can make it a lvl 85 skill
no skills for doombringer and others melee gets all of his main skills and not his disadvantages (low CON) . seriously what drugs do you take on the development team ?
the new tattoo system will change this a lot.
perhaps people will have lower con due to the max bonus being what? +11 now.
Shield Strike (wtf?)
lvl 40
Paladin, Dark Avenger, Temple Knight, Shillien Knight
Attacks the enemy additionally with a shield. A shield must be equipped.
Challenge for Fate (???)
lvl 83
Phoenix Knight, Hell Knight, Eva's Templar, Shillien Templar
Challenges the enemies [-들 plural] directly in front by arousing their attention. The Tank's own P.Def. and M.Def. is increased by the skill.
they also dont pve very well, as they had troubles with the antharas that the NA servers were farming regularly
Their latest video of the new Frintezza raid shows multiple Hierophants (in s80 sigh) running around buffing ppl. Mostly for the Improved condition it seemed. Ironic how everyone in the raid could have gotten it in 1 second from a Dominator lol.
Their latest video of the new Frintezza raid shows multiple Hierophants (in s80 sigh) running around buffing ppl. Mostly for the Improved condition it seemed. Ironic how everyone in the raid could have gotten it in 1 second from a Dominator lol.
they also take dwarves in raid groups. i have no problems with dwarves, but they dont make excellent dd's for a perfect raid melee group or raid archer group. thats like taking my DN to over a 84+ dagger in a raid group or a titan/tyrant. it is just plain dumb to use those chars when more powerful ones exist that will turn the party into a "perfect" party.
The Koreans are terrible at both PvE and PvP. That is why I tend to ignore most information that comes form the Korean sources which isn't relatively indifferent (skill info, SP costs, mechanic changes, etc.).
They are not reliable or useful when it comes to balance discussions.
If the raid lasts a very long time, I can see reason to take one dwarf to the raid... One Warsmith to craft shots and go afk in shop mode with SSS/SBSpS compressed packages for 1a each, of course...
they also take dwarves in raid groups. i have no problems with dwarves, but they dont make excellent dd's for a perfect raid melee group or raid archer group. thats like taking my DN to over a 84+ dagger in a raid group or a titan/tyrant. it is just plain dumb to use those chars when more powerful ones exist that will turn the party into a "perfect" party.
and with that exclude all players that like to play a dorf...
the maps on that site remind me alot of europe. but the art for the new area looks beautifu. Im excited. is it going to be like a box update? like go out and buy the update on cd? or just something like when they do server maintenance
and with that exclude all players that like to play a dorf...
i didnt say it was fair, but a perfect mage/archer/melee group is "perfect" for a reason. also, read what my class is, im included in the class that is pointless to take in a perfect melee group, and im still saying its smart to take perfect parties over makeshift dd parties.
and as someone else pointed out, they can play a needed class on a sub.
i didnt say it was fair, but a perfect mage/archer/melee group is "perfect" for a reason. also, read what my class is, im included in the class that is pointless to take in a perfect melee group, and im still saying its smart to take perfect parties over makeshift dd parties.
and as someone else pointed out, they can play a needed class on a sub.
I understand your point but it turns in the fact that western players are aways worried about the "perfect" way to do a thing. We prefer to put asside people for the sake of the "perfect" way of grinding.
look how it works:
The perfect party must have oop boxes to improve xp gain.
The perfect way to kill raids is with nothing else of a titan and a card with all the other support boxed in party just to improve balance life.
The parfect epics are made of perfefect parties that don't have underrated classes.
I can't say koreans don't think in that way too but the comment smittie made about the PP buffing impoved condition showed me a big diference on the way they play the game. Why use a Hiero instead of a Dom. I would answare with, to not turn the class useless and the players frustraded.
But who knows what is the real reason? im not korean :)
the maps on that site remind me alot of europe. but the art for the new area looks beautifu. Im excited. is it going to be like a box update? like go out and buy the update on cd? or just something like when they do server maintenance
L2 has never had box updates. All updates were free of cost to players and they were performed during the maintenance.
and that's why many live dwarfs quits their mains and re-roll or quit.
Lots of SE's quit too, then lots of Archers quit, and it's happened to other classes as well.
It's the circle of life, but he has a point. Koreans are bad at PvE and it gives the developers a pretty skewed perception on how the game is actually balanced.
That's what happens when your primary playerbase consists of downies who try to use a butter knife to cut steak.
Lots of SE's quit too, then lots of Archers quit, and it's happened to other classes as well.
It's the circle of life, but he has a point. Koreans are bad at PvE and it gives the developers a pretty skewed perception on how the game is actually balanced.
That's what happens when your primary playerbase consists of downies who try to use a butter knife to cut steak.
Koreans are bad at PvE ??? LOLZ !!! WTF !!! maybe you are a nab >?
And yes, they're pretty bad. They usually have more people to do the same encounters than we have, and they usually have much worse (i.e. terrible) party setups compared to NA players.
NA Players are min-maxers. They are more efficient at PvE than the Koreans. There are lots of encounters that were beat here before they were beat in Korea, and we usually get the content after they do.
They're pretty bad, which is ironic considering how much they dislike PvP (compared to US/EU players).
And yes, they're pretty bad. They usually have more people to do the same encounters than we have, and they usually have much worse (i.e. terrible) party setups compared to NA players.
NA Players are min-maxers. They are more efficient at PvE than the Koreans. There are lots of encounters that were beat here before they were beat in Korea, and we usually get the content after they do.
They're pretty bad, which is ironic considering how much they dislike PvP (compared to US/EU players).
On the other hand they utilize every class in the game and play the game the way it's meant to be, while the EU/NA players only utilize 70% of the classes.
On the other hand they utilize every class in the game and play the game the way it's meant to be, while the EU/NA players only utilize 70% of the classes.
That's because 30% of the classes are either:
1. Redundant, or
2. Worse than others for the same tasks (so... I guess that makes these extremely redundant?)
and with that exclude all players that like to play a dorf...
Shouldn't have rolled a dwarf if you can't face the consequences that nobody will want you in party. OOP spoiler though.. awesome.
Those players usually bring useful (support) subs.
this.
i didnt say it was fair, but a perfect mage/archer/melee group is "perfect" for a reason. also, read what my class is, im included in the class that is pointless to take in a perfect melee group, and im still saying its smart to take perfect parties over makeshift dd parties.
and as someone else pointed out, they can play a needed class on a sub.
This is why our only active WL plays his WC sub for raids/most pvp. However, everyone loves him for xp! <3_<3
Koreans are bad at PvE ??? LOLZ !!! WTF !!! maybe you are a nab >?
EXTREMELY bad.
On the other hand they utilize every class in the game and play the game the way it's meant to be, while the EU/NA players only utilize 70% of the classes.
Who really cares if all classes are played equally?
Who really cares if all classes are played equally?
I can think of a few that cares...like everyone that plays the classes that always gets picked last or never for parties.
Should they just quit the game because the EU/NA players play like **** compared to the Koreans?
EU/NA players bot their ***** off. If you compare legit players per bots on our servers and the Korean servers, then you will see that our % of legit players compared to botters is way bellow the Koreans...I will go as far and say that only 20% or less of the current player base on the EU/NA servers are legit, the rest have botted or bought adena at least once.
its seems like in a few years Lineage 2 will end up like most other MMORPG's...
same skills for all warrior classes... only races will differ.. but skills same....
/Agree
Those developers are destroying the most beautiful game,they only keep the same figures of races,1 set of armor who looks the same in all classes,ugly weapons and same skills all classes end to share at the end.So pathetic..
/agree
they just put recolor version of dynasty/vesper for new armors and it's look more and more tasteless and unimiginative, do what others casualMMO do in terms of gameplay and become a random xxxx MMO..hope CT3(after high five update) will show better improvement than those shown, i am a lot dissapointed atm....
and with that exclude all players that like to play a dorf...
I like to play my dwarf, but I have no problems using my support sub for the sake of killing an epic raid or for a mass pvp group (the rare times that they happen lol). I understand that my main isn't the best thing for these situations and I make the best of the situation that I can by having my support subs :3
Dwarves are still good at pve, though. When I need some SP, I just grab me a DC and a BD, and go aoe rooms where DN's seem to have issues, and they have BD, SWS, DC, and at least 1 support DD and a healer just in case. No reason not to love dwarves, just sometimes epic raids aren't the best thing to bring their main classes in lol
EXTREMELY bad.
That's so true. They always whine about top-end PvE being too hard and it gets nerfed. NA/EU servers always do it first before the patch, like for Beleth. Not only on L2. They suck on Aion too. A FR server got the divine fortress before the patch to nerf the big RB to get it, because Koreans sucked so much.
They're hopeless.
76+ character are getting a 20% increase to their XP rate globally, anyways, so I doubt anyone here will waste time putting these classes in their parties, when they can get the XP bonus by inviting better DD/Support classes and just upping their kill rate.
76+ character are getting a 20% increase to their XP rate globally, anyways, so I doubt anyone here will waste time putting these classes in their parties, when they can get the XP bonus by inviting better DD/Support classes and just upping their kill rate.
And many ask why some classes are more botted than others...no wonder with this player mentality...
Any increase in xp is good but i think 20% xp bonus will not even be notice in short runs, vitalitly 4 gives 300% and is still not a factor at high lvls, if they don't adjust the vit you will be out of it 20% faster hehehe.
Any increase in xp is good but i think 20% xp bonus will not even be notice in short runs, vitalitly 4 gives 400% and is still not a factor at high lvls, if they don't adjust the vit you will be out of it 20% faster hehehe.
Vitality 4 gives 300%.
Admittedly, I'm one of the ones who should benefit from new ideas like the HF Dragon Valley buff system, but I don't think we can judge yet whether 'maxers' will be better to ignore the party composition or follow it. First time we get the HF PTS will be very interesting to test these new systems :)
I'm just glad to see NCsoft is tackling the main problems of L2 - class elitism & XP maxing. Even if they don't succeed, they are trying, and that makes me happy to see.
76+ character are getting a 20% increase to their XP rate globally, anyways, so I doubt anyone here will waste time putting these classes in their parties, when they can get the XP bonus by inviting better DD/Support classes and just upping their kill rate.
When you can clean the spot using 5 toons, but 2 extra leechers give you better exp per toon from the same spot, you might be interested in inviting your clannies that are still looking for party, who will most probably be less popular PvE classes.
When you can clean the spot using 5 toons, but 2 extra leechers give you better exp per toon from the same spot, you might be interested in inviting your clannies that are still looking for party, who will most probably be less popular PvE classes.
In that case I will add high DPS DDs (of the lesser played variety, like a PW, SR or a TK to tank), not classes like Heirophants and Warsmiths/Bounty Hunters...
Two means to the same end.
There will be a buff to reward you for getting class variety, but players will pick the best classes with the most decent bonuses, and try to avoid those useless classes that don't necessarily contribute much.
And since those levels are S80+, there won't be many Dwarves and Prophets to invite to those groups, anyways...
Then again, will it matter? Most people will stick to extremely trivial XP spots for a free ride to 83-85 (HB, FoG, CoD, Darkness, etc.).
We don't know how the MOBs are balanced in the new Dragon Valley, so we can't really talk about cleaning it out for 5 toons. If it's anything similar to the way they're rebalancing Monestary of Silence, you won't be cleaning it out with 5 toons, for sure.
The reason why they're revamping the XP bonuses is because they're actually trying to push people to form bigger groups (and balancing the new/revamped leveling grounds for larger group sizes).
And many ask why some classes are more botted than others...no wonder with this player mentality...
Bring the Player, Not the Class failed miserably in WoW. What makes you think it will be any different here... They've been assuming people would do that since early chronicles, and people [here] have almost always gravitated towards template group setups.
And as long as people can XP in old zones easily, I don't think they will really care about going to these places and inviting those classes.
Yes, when they need to craft stuff they will farm it, but they will rather pole green/darkness/fog/cod/etc. to level up than try to look for class_01 and class_04 before they can get a decent XP rate (especially when those classes, live played, are rather rare).
In that case I will add high DPS DDs (of the lesser played variety, like a PW, SR or a TK to tank), not classes like Heirophants and Warsmiths/Bounty Hunters...
Two means to the same end.
There will be a buff to reward you for getting class variety, but players will pick the best classes with the most decent bonuses, and try to avoid those useless classes that don't necessarily contribute much.
And since those levels are S80+, there won't be many Dwarves and Prophets to invite to those groups, anyways...
Then again, will it matter? Most people will stick to extremely trivial XP spots for a free ride to 83-85 (HB, FoG, CoD, Darkness, etc.).
When a Bounty Hunter resp. Fortune Seeker successfully spoils a monster in the upgraded Dragon Valley or Antharas' Lair, it will drop with a certain probability a new Party Vitality Replenishing Herb that raises for a duration of 10 minutes all party members' Vitality to 4: http://v3.elliebelly.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=55&func=view&catid=15&id=24232
When a Bounty Hunter resp. Fortune Seeker successfully spoils a monster in the upgraded Dragon Valley or Antharas' Lair, it will drop with a certain probability a new Party Vitality Replenishing Herb that raises for a duration of 10 minutes all party members' Vitality to 4: http://v3.elliebelly.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=55&func=view&catid=15&id=24232
Adding a Spoiler will be good :)
I think you're missing the point of what many people are saying in this thread as it regards to dwarf classes.
And where are we going to get all these S80+ Fortune Seekers? There are hardly any high level Dwarves, and since this is an 80+ leveling spot, I doubt people will be rerolling or Subbing BH just to level it to 80 so they can finally get invites to groups.
This isn't Korea. Those classes are avoided here.
Dwarf Class damage output is pathetic. Yes, it will increase the Vitality of the group (I doubt on every successful spoil, since that would equal permanent Vit 4... source?), but will it make up for their DPS? It's like taking a BH to a pole group over a Warlord or Destroyer. Will the spoils make up for the drop in kill speed (and thus, drop in XP rate)?
I'm just glad to see NCsoft is tackling the main problems of L2 - class elitism & XP maxing. Even if they don't succeed, they are trying, and that makes me happy to see.
That's the problem - they're not tackling the problems. They're trying to put yet another band-aid on it because they're terrible at design/balance.
Instead of creating a mechanism that would potentially force people to group with underpowered classes (the band-aid solution), how about balancing the classes in the first place (fixing the problem itself)?
But, of course, they wouldn't know where to even begin when it comes to class balance.
In that case I will add high DPS DDs (of the lesser played variety, like a PW, SR or a TK to tank), not classes like Heirophants and Warsmiths/Bounty Hunters...
Those DDs might be better off farming another spot in a separate party (there will be a plenty of unused spots on NC West servers for sure) and competing with you for those "useless" classes as their party fillers.
Not that I'd like the idea (I always said that bonus for leechers is a much worse solution than allowing those classes to provide active help), but it will work.
There will be a buff to reward you for getting class variety, but players will pick the best classes with the most decent bonuses,
You are over-estimating the availability of a cookie-cutter party setup to an average player. Players will pick whatever they have available for them. Of course, most of them would wish to be powerlevelled in a duo with 85.100 Destro (and everything else offparty), but if it's unrealistic (and for most people it is), they are glad to take a lvl 81 BH or WS and go pole FoG with him.
And since those levels are S80+, there won't be many Dwarves and Prophets to invite to those groups, anyways...
Bad for your clan. Good for mine.
Then again, will it matter? Most people will stick to extremely trivial XP spots for a free ride to 83-85 (HB, FoG, CoD, Darkness, etc.).
Most of it is mediocre exp. FoG has like 2 spots that are decent for miniparties to 82 (and semi-decent to maybe 84). Darkness is light blue to lvl 82 toons as well. Good HB spots are usually taken by top clans (and aren't that good unless you AoE or lethal the mobs anyway). With the pole nerf in CT3, most parties might have better exp in the new locations.
I just remembered why I have you on my ignore list...
Covering your eyes and ears and screaming at the top of your lungs won't change the fact that what he's saying is 100% accurate. I play a high-level Maestro main, and while I don't like that what he says is true, it doesn't mean that what he's saying isn't true.
It's not his fault that Dwarves generally suck in all pvp/pve aspects of the game. Blame the developers for that. Hate the game, not the player.
Ceterus peribus except for the classes, if my clan and I have a particular pvp/pve goal and are forming a party that is crucial towards that goal, I would take myself out of consideration for that party if there were viable alternative classes available for that party. Only the self-centered and delusional would demand their place in that party if other, more-effective options were available.
What has been increasingly apparent over the years is that NCSoft, as evidenced by their insane lack of class balancing, is extremely incompetent at balancing the game, expects people to roll up several characters to high levels in order to be effective in every situation (effectively increasing the grind by requiring the use of several characters and thus keeping people subscribed to their game longer), or both.
It's not Trensharo's fault that NCSoft is run by idiots/geniuses who have managed to addict us all to their POS game.
They could improve partying for spoilers really easy, but I guess they are too lazy.
Have entire new sets of good armors, where the recipes are spoil only, no questing or regular drops. Set the spoil rate to like 1/1000, and those dwarves are sure to lvl up lol.
Or we could just ignore such a suggestion and have entire mage armor recipes be somethign you can grind for a day to get.
Those DDs might be better off farming another spot in a separate party (there will be a plenty of unused spots on NC West servers for sure) and competing with you for those "useless" classes as their party fillers.
Not that I'd like the idea (I always said that bonus for leechers is a much worse solution than allowing those classes to provide active help), but it will work.
Unless the system is typically NCSoft-brand broken (TM), and we find a way around it like we usually have to before Korea releases a patch, which will hit our servers typically two to eight months later.
You are over-estimating the availability of a cookie-cutter party setup to an average player. Players will pick whatever they have available for them. Of course, most of them would wish to be powerlevelled in a duo with 85.100 Destro (and everything else offparty), but if it's unrealistic (and for most people it is), they are glad to take a lvl 81 BH or WS and go pole FoG with him.
We're speaking theory here, and under the assumption that everyone would pick the best choice for any given situation, he is correct.
With that said, if the average player were able to pick exactly what he wants in his party, then he would be correct, as well. Would the average player want the very best efficiency, or do you think that he would pick a Dwarf?
That's like saying if you won the lottery, you would pay off what you owe for your car and house, then throw the rest of the money away instead of buying a new and better house and a new and better car - a few people would do it, but the vast majority would get better than what is currently available to him.
Bad for your clan. Good for mine.
I'd like to see a clan full of Dwarves....
Then, I'd call them all roleplayers and kick them out of any pve spots/raids I want, taking all the good-yet-frustrated support classes from their clan in the process. :D
I think you're missing the point of what many people are saying in this thread as it regards to dwarf classes.
And where are we going to get all these S80+ Fortune Seekers? There are hardly any high level Dwarves, and since this is an 80+ leveling spot, I doubt people will be rerolling or Subbing BH just to level it to 80 so they can finally get invites to groups.
This isn't Korea. Those classes are avoided here.
Dwarf Class damage output is pathetic. Yes, it will increase the Vitality of the group (I doubt on every successful spoil, since that would equal permanent Vit 4... source?), but will it make up for their DPS? It's like taking a BH to a pole group over a Warlord or Destroyer. Will the spoils make up for the drop in kill speed (and thus, drop in XP rate)?
Ahem...
I know I am somewhat unique, but then again maybe my clan and I are on to something you are missing...
My DPS isn't all that bad, again I'm somewhat unique. Sure I'm not a top DD, but then again I am live, play smart and provide spoils. I am often included in PvE parties, especially in places where Dynasty/Icarus parts spoil or where a polearm user with +++ mastery is a group benefit. I often pull aggro from tanks and lesser polearm using classes of higher level, maybe the MOBs know something.
I guess my clan understands my value, as well as likes me and my humor. Maybe people play this game in ways you don't think are fun or "productive". Mind altering stuff for some people...
I know I am somewhat unique, but then again maybe my clan and I are on to something you are missing...
My DPS isn't all that bad, again I'm somewhat unique. Sure I'm not a top DD, but then again I am live, play smart and provide spoils. I am often included in PvE parties, especially in places where Dynasty/Icarus parts spoil or where a polearm user with +++ mastery is a group benefit. I often pull aggro from tanks and lesser polearm using classes of higher level, maybe the MOBs know something.
I guess my clan understands my value, as well as likes me and my humor. Maybe people play this game in ways you don't think are fun or "productive". Mind altering stuff for some people...
Your DPS isn't that bad, per se.
Compared to a Tyrant, Gladiator, Destroyer, Dagger, and probably even an Archer with an Attributed Dagger...
Your DPS is bad.
I'm not saying it to slight you, because it's not your fault. Should your class be in the state it's in currently? No.
Would I be mad if it became a decent damage dealer? No. The Market Prowess of Dwarves isn't nearly enough to hold them back as much as NCSoft has been, since the game was released - basically.
Since NCSoft is in the business of prostituting out class skills, giving Dwarves Rage wouldn't have been a bad move, IMO.
Phantom Summoner Death Spike is being changed to have same power as Necro/SH Death Spike in ^5 (Lol), and will get the same Skill Enchant Options.
New Summoner nuke is 98 Power at Max Level for PvP, and 109 for PvE (basically same in PvE as a normal nuke). Need to know if it's attributed or not. If not... Don't see a reason to use it as a Necro, except in areas where MOBs are dark resist... Well... Death Spike may still be better, since your damage on dark resist mobs with a 150+ dark weapon will most likely be higher than an unattributed nuke of the same power.
Unless the system is typically NCSoft-brand broken (TM), and we find a way around it like we usually have to before Korea releases a patch, which will hit our servers typically two to eight months later.
I don't see why you would. Poleing the whole SoA should be a better challenge for you.
We're speaking theory here, and under the assumption that everyone would pick the best choice for any given situation, he is correct.
As I said, even if we were speaking about some theory that is absolutely irrelevant to almost all (if not all) in this thread, his choice wasn't the best, so he was incorrect.
However, speaking about irrelevant theories is not what I'd like to do. I prefer to speak about theories that are relevant, and those say that not everyone can pick "the best choice".
I'd like to see a clan full of Dwarves....
Who said "full of"?
Then, I'd call them all roleplayers and kick them out of any pve spots/raids I want, taking all the good-yet-frustrated support classes from their clan in the process. :D
Yeah, sure, because support subs of those dwarves are played by different people, not by the ones you have just managed to piss off... :rolleyes:
Someday the short will rule the world, or get distracted by something shiny, either way win-win.
Was done on Franz when it was brand new; we were one of the first clans to get lvl3 on that server.
Was hilarious seeing & participating in 3 full parties of dwarves trying to kill mobs for the Proof of Blood.
The clan was called Dwarvenraiders I think; and I was proud to be part of it before it unfortunately met its end due (mostly I believe) to the fact ppl needed support classes lol...
The reason why they're revamping the XP bonuses is because they're actually trying to push people to form bigger groups (and balancing the new/revamped leveling grounds for larger group sizes).
...I think if you were on Phoenix, you'd be in Polaris.
That's what most people do these days, anyways, since hardly anyone wants to play a fail class like Warsmith.
My Warsmith is cute and cuddly and hits a bit too hard to be a fail class, thank you very much. Gimped race, maybe. But the smart players make do with what they can get, and tweak things to their advantage ;D
Dwarf Class damage output is pathetic. Yes, it will increase the Vitality of the group (I doubt on every successful spoil, since that would equal permanent Vit 4... source?), but will it make up for their DPS? It's like taking a BH to a pole group over a Warlord or Destroyer. Will the spoils make up for the drop in kill speed (and thus, drop in XP rate)?
I have to ask now. Either what fail dwarves are you finding to exp with, or what fail Dreadnoughts have I had the displeasure of exping with? I admit Titans have dwarves beat in the aoe department, but why have I seen 5 different Dreadnoughts (3 in S80, 2 with Icarus Tridents, 1 with Dynasty Halberd, 1 was 80 but still in IC and had Dynasty Halberd) in my exp spot barely surviving without a 5-10 minute mana break every 40-60 minutes with a DC, SWS, BD, and Cardi live, and I could survive it alone with a DC and BD OOP when I was 80?
Covering your eyes and ears and screaming at the top of your lungs won't change the fact that what he's saying is 100% accurate. I play a high-level Maestro main, and while I don't like that what he says is true, it doesn't mean that what he's saying isn't true.
It's not his fault that Dwarves generally suck in all pvp/pve aspects of the game. Blame the developers for that. Hate the game, not the player.
I hate the player who is showing his blatant ignorance. I play dwarf main and have no freaking idea what he's talking about. Maybe the downy dwarves he knows fail that badly, but I know of at least 4 dwarves that pve better than this joke puts them down to be, and 3 that pvp better than some DD classes that are 83+. It's not our fault you people don't know the in's and out's of your toon and start whining for balance because you don't know how to pick targets correctly, don't know how to gear correctly, and don't know how to play the game.
I thought there was an all-dwarf clan except for the leader who was a Cardi named Hammerstrike?
Compared to a Tyrant, Gladiator, Destroyer, Dagger, and probably even an Archer with an Attributed Dagger...
Your DPS is bad.
I'm not saying it to slight you, because it's not your fault. Should your class be in the state it's in currently? No.
Would I be mad if it became a decent damage dealer? No. The Market Prowess of Dwarves isn't nearly enough to hold them back as much as NCSoft has been, since the game was released - basically.
Since NCSoft is in the business of prostituting out class skills, giving Dwarves Rage wouldn't have been a bad move, IMO.
u never played with a FS imo...
i'm FS and i pl'ed my clanmates (inviting them just to let them pick up adenas and drops)... even DD and nukers.
I solo aoe darkness room or fog (i only have a DC as buffpet, no healer, no bd, no sws). can u? surely no. dorfs aren't DD? lol i like to see others thinking that. They don't understand what happened when they are perma stunned and died by a dorf, especially robes.
Even daggers, if their 'I win' skills don't work, they are died.
Someday the short will rule the world, or get distracted by something shiny, either way win-win.
Awesome response. +2 for Tabbi on this one.
Dont forget that dwarves especially the Fortune Seekers have one of the highest natural HP in the game and can take one hell of a beating. I enjoy leveling with dwarves, and respectully disagree that they are a gimp class.
I play a duelist as my main, but have great respect for all those that took their lumps and ground out the levels on their dwarves.
Finally, I have seen at least a dozen dwarves on my server, Sayha, running around with capes on, so there is no shortage of 80+ dwarves there.
but why have I seen 5 different Dreadnoughts (3 in S80, 2 with Icarus Tridents, 1 with Dynasty Halberd, 1 was 80 but still in IC and had Dynasty Halberd) in my exp spot barely surviving without a 5-10 minute mana break every 40-60 minutes with a DC, SWS, BD, and Cardi live, and I could survive it alone with a DC and BD OOP when I was 80?
Because they had 4 more toons to pull for them?... :rolleyes:
I don't see why you would. Poleing the whole SoA should be a better challenge for you.
Unfortunately, not everyone is 83+ for SoA (though, I am).
As I said, even if we were speaking about some theory that is absolutely irrelevant to almost all (if not all) in this thread, his choice wasn't the best, so he was incorrect.
However, speaking about irrelevant theories is not what I'd like to do. I prefer to speak about theories that are relevant, and those say that not everyone can pick "the best choice".
The only reason why we're speaking theories here is because we can't really have ceterus peribus except class because no two people are alike.
Therefore, what we're speaking of here can only be limited to theories based on maximum potential for each class, which is far from irrelevant, at least on NA/EU servers where the game population is generally leagues above their Korean counterparts in everything except active population numbers.
Who said "full of"?
Yeah, sure, because support subs of those dwarves are played by different people, not by the ones you have just managed to piss off... :rolleyes:
Last time I checked, those lvl 80+ support skills were pretty good. :rolleyes:
Someday the short will rule the world, or get distracted by something shiny, either way win-win.
If the Stratics site were still up (are they? I don't even want to check after that virus scare a while back), I'd show you when I once thought the same.
Well I think Trenshero has seen his fair share of rear end action. Apart from that I have to agree with him. Dwarves dont have anything going for them. Theyre slow, low patk, slow atk speed, low crit rate and no passive damage booster. Id actually rather party with a meleeing nuker then a dwarf.
If unfortunately you are a dwarf I suggest this setup:
+5str -5con
+4dex -4con
+16 S, S80 or Vesper dagger, sword, duals focus
Augment with +str
+6 tallum heavy
Atleast WS has some buffs but BH is just junk. Sorry.
Because they had 4 more toons to pull for them?... :rolleyes:
No...no...I stood there and watched. I have this awkward habit of staring at things that bewilder me, even in-game. It's hard to really surprise me, but I start to wonder how that much support can fail at pulling half of what I pull with half the support that they have (I even miss a SWS and a HEALER lol)
Well I think Trenshero has seen his fair share of rear end action. Apart from that I have to agree with him. Dwarves dont have anything going for them. Theyre slow, low patk, slow atk speed, low crit rate and no passive damage booster. Id actually rather party with a meleeing nuker then a dwarf.
If unfortunately you are a dwarf I suggest this setup:
+5str -5con
+4dex -4con
+16 S, S80 or Vesper dagger, sword, duals focus
Augment with +str
+6 tallum heavy
Atleast WS has some buffs but BH is just junk. Sorry.
You're about to see your share of rear end criticism. Enchant Blunt Mastery for power to gain run speed and compensate for the slow run speed (at least, you can for Warsmiths!). at least get 150 on your S/Dynasty/Icarus weapon and enchant your skills for that element, OE your stuns and you have enough damage that you can duo and stall for time if you are single targetting mobs. Slow base attack speed, yeah. Get full buffs, add on a Warrior Haste proc sub-skill and you're golden, especially in AOE. Low crit rate. Duh. Find me one class that equips a blunt that has a high crit rate. This is a moot point statement. To be honest, they were made to be meat shields. +6 Tallum Heavy? Are you high? +6 IC set would be the least bit nice for them, S80 WOULD BE GOOD if the Weapon Master essence didn't remove the bonus from equipping the Dynasty Shield. From this setup, you can knock off a few of those -CON tats that would turn a semi-useful meat shield into just ground beef (the run speed enchants and Warrior Haste proc can compensate for at least 1, if not 2 DEX, and the armor sets from IC and Dynasty compensate for 2 STR and therefore 2 of the FIVE CON you suggest dwarves remove). Dwarves may have alot of CON, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them THAT dispensable.
Your setup is one of the most fail I've seen. With your setup, I'D take a meleeing nuker over a dwarf.
Well I think Trenshero has seen his fair share of rear end action. Apart from that I have to agree with him. Dwarves dont have anything going for them. Theyre slow, low patk, slow atk speed, low crit rate and no passive damage booster. Id actually rather party with a meleeing nuker then a dwarf.
If unfortunately you are a dwarf I suggest this setup:
+5str -5con
+4dex -4con
+16 S, S80 or Vesper dagger, sword, duals focus
Augment with +str
+6 tallum heavy
Atleast WS has some buffs but BH is just junk. Sorry.
I usually aim for that on these forums.
I am OfficialForumSexual.
EDIT: A Grade in an end-game leveling spot is so full of fail, especially on a melee toon.
Flipsy, other DDs can make their characters better, as well. There is a lot wrong with the dwarf classes from a balance perspective. That is why they make worse DDs than most other DD classes. The Dwarf will only be great if the other DDs in the group are somewhat terrible (much worse gear, no decent skill OEs, bad element on weapon, down syndrome, etc.).
Why do you think NCSoft is trying to force people to take Bounty Hunters into parties in exchange for faster leveling? Certainly not because they're good. Quite the contrary. They're terible. Not the players, the class itself.
Yes, good players know how to make the most of a murky situation. That what separates good players from mediocre players. Still doesn't change the fact that most other DD classes can out-DPS a dwarf with worse gear and oftentimes lower levels as well.
Some people don't care about min maxing and just play what class they like. Good for them!
I have to ask now. Either what fail dwarves are you finding to exp with, or what fail Dreadnoughts have I had the displeasure of exping with? I admit Titans have dwarves beat in the aoe department, but why have I seen 5 different Dreadnoughts (3 in S80, 2 with Icarus Tridents, 1 with Dynasty Halberd, 1 was 80 but still in IC and had Dynasty Halberd) in my exp spot barely surviving without a 5-10 minute mana break every 40-60 minutes with a DC, SWS, BD, and Cardi live, and I could survive it alone with a DC and BD OOP when I was 80?
I'm betting on the fail Dreadnoughts being the source of your perceptions. My clan has 2 (3, if you count the one that went inactive after beating the game for the 2nd time) Dreadnoughts that pole Tully's and Green, respectively, as the sole polers in their parties.
I hate the player who is showing his blatant ignorance. I play dwarf main and have no freaking idea what he's talking about. Maybe the downy dwarves he knows fail that badly, but I know of at least 4 dwarves that pve better than this joke puts them down to be, and 3 that pvp better than some DD classes that are 83+. It's not our fault you people don't know the in's and out's of your toon and start whining for balance because you don't know how to pick targets correctly, don't know how to gear correctly, and don't know how to play the game.
You have no idea what Dwarves he plays with or even what is his concept of a "good" player or a "bad" player - he's made no mention of his criteria. You only know exactly what he's posted about the Dwarf classes - that their damage potential (as a product of not only patk, but a combination of all stat figures (i.e. base/buffed run speed, base/buffed crit rate) and item combinations) makes them significantly weaker in terms of potential party contribution in pve/pvp in most cases, making the Dwarf classes less desirable in party creation in lieu of stronger classes that increase exp/pvp efficiency more than Dwarves.
Since your pronouns flip-flop between responding to me and criticizing his opinion, I'll go ahead and respond in defense of my own comments:
My clan is on the top of our server, and our competition just crumbled for the umpteenth time over the last couple of years. Needless to say, the people in my clan are pretty strong.
With that said, I'm one of the first people targetted during PvP. Chalk that up to dumb enemies if you want, but it still says something when a Dwarf is targetted before healers or less HP-wealthy DDs.
In PvE, people constantly come to me asking to be powerlevelled because I AoE Green. Now, I'm not even the best Dwarf in our clan who can do it (still waiting for an Antharas), but I do pretty well.
And as I've alluded to in that last paragraph, I'm among good Dwarven company. I know a good Dwarf when I see one, and I know how to play a Dwarf pretty well.
With all that said, my PvP score is actually pretty low. It's not that I don't PvP a lot, it's just that I lack the damage ability to kill people from start to finish quick enough as a result of the class I play before other, higher-damage-ability classes get to my target, while also lacking the run speed to get to targetted/focused targets to get last hits. My main role in PvP is to harass/stun/defend priority targets, not to finish them off. If my PvP score were high, I would actually be concerned about the other DDs in my clan.
When it comes to PvE, Green is as far as you're realistically able to get (maybe make a case for Delusion Chamber, but not a big fan of being somewhere PvP can't happen) due to class limitations. The only other location where the xp gains are better is Tully's, and unless you're willing to sit for extended downtimes or pull maybe 1 room at a time (at which point, the xp gains won't be higher than Green), Dwarves can't be main pole, unlike Titans and Dreads.
As far as raids are concerned, while Titans can VR enough to keep swinging at Beleth among the nukes, guess who can't? And while I don't have an Antharas, it's highly unlikely that the VR on that will help enough to make the difference.
They don't understand what happened when they are perma stunned and died by a dorf, especially robes.
Even daggers, if their 'I win' skills don't work, they are died.
And yet, even though it's our bread-and-butter offensive skill, our stuns have the lowest land rate of all the stuns.
And instead of sitting there and saying that people aren't playing Dwarves correctly whenever Dwarves' faults are discussed, you could help the Dwarf classes (however slim the chances that NCKorea will consider our complaints) by recognizing the how weak we are in comparison to the rest of the class subsection (melee fighters) into which we're segregated.
This is the reason why nothing ever gets balanced in Lineage II.
Everything things they're a pr0 player because they overgear their toon and kill lowbies, and refuse to acknowledge the obvious faults in game design that riddle Lineage II.
First the Necro saying get to 83 and +23 ur skills and get 5/5, then the dwarf that says all is well, the others just need to L2P.
I'm wondering how dead this game has to get before people stop chearleading for NCSoft's apparent (mostly obvious) failures (nevermind half of them think the game is still "growing") and masquerading them as innovative leaps forward in game/class design.
I was attacking Tren that whole post. In fact the only part of my post that even involved you was stating the "Covering your eyes and ears and screaming at the top of your lungs won't change the fact that what he's saying is 100% accurate. I play a high-level Maestro main, and while I don't like that what he says is true, it doesn't mean that what he's saying isn't true.". What was saying wasn't 100% accurate or true lol.
I was attacking Tren that whole post. In fact the only part of my post that even involved you was stating the "Covering your eyes and ears and screaming at the top of your lungs won't change the fact that what he's saying is 100% accurate. I play a high-level Maestro main, and while I don't like that what he says is true, it doesn't mean that what he's saying isn't true.". What was saying wasn't 100% accurate or true lol.
whatever .. this update is goodly for dwarfs compared what prophets (not) get :)
Remember that while our PTS is basically a preview server, the Korean PTS is an actual testing ground and changes happen all the time before patches are put on their live servers.
Remember that while our PTS is basically a preview server, the Korean PTS is an actual testing ground and changes happen all the time before patches are put on their live servers.
Also, Counter Crit rocks.
THAT is the BIG problem here, we should get a real testing PTS
for the American/European crowd, because we are not asians
we wont appreciate the same things due to cultural diffirences.
And by good you mean bad for anyone who isn't in a party of 7+.
Think it in a positive way, now you can bring all your clannies in a 15 range lvl to grind without a xp penalty and everybody will get good xp, even if you can clean the spot alone it will be better to clean it with 7 people.
Think it in a positive way, now you can bring all your clannies in a 15 range lvl to grind without a xp penalty and everybody will get good xp, even if you can clean the spot alone it will be better to clean it with 7 people.
- 9 levels or less difference -> 100%
- 10~14 levels difference -> 30%
- 15 levels or more difference -> 0%You mean 9 levels? o:
And technically, with the +20% XP boost for everyone 76+ small parties aren't loosing XP, but it makes them less efficient and desirable. Which is odd now that they've finally added some high level spots for smaller parties.
Far as I understand this translation, as bad as it is..... it will be a good boost for dwarfs also:
Skill Name: - Blunt Mastery
Changes: - Sword/Blunt Mastery of skills to change people, sword types were also changed to be effective.
This would suggest to me that they changed blunt mastery for dwarfs to be sword/blunt mastery instead..... at least that means about 300 more p.att for the swords most dwarfs already use. :p
Also, Counter Crit rocks.
That's not being debated.
The more important issue is simple: Is Conter Critical (which rocks) actually worth the time, adena, energy, frustration, etc. it takes to level a Heirophant from 1 to 83?
Sometimes it sounds like people think Counter Critical makes Prophets automatically much better than other buffers, when it obviously doesn't.
Even though flipsy is a high lvl dorf she seems more newbe then most. In no way shape or form does a dwarf do better in AoE then a dreadnought. And we were mostly discussing PvE hence my suggestion of +6 tallum, +6 plated leather would probably be better though.
In PvP I suggest this:
+5con -5dex
+4str -4dex
+6 IC heavy and shield
+16 icarus crusher with health
As u can see a PvE dorf will suck in PvP and a PvP dorf will suck at PvE. Not only that but they wont be very good at the thing theyre tailored to either.
I think the only solution is to deny dwarfs to leave peace zones, maybe only be able to play in Giran. Then implement some kind of mini hunting zone in Giran the size of maybe the grocery shop where they could lvl up. This way they could still spoil mats and craft SS
They said that High Five will be released in the middle of July in Korea. If it does and we haven't got Freya yet... It's gonna be historical...
Freya has quite many added things but if the reason why they're slow is because there are many things and we don't even get half of them. Gracia Final/Epilogue example: Dimensional Merchant. We also don't get battle leagues etc.
The reason why they slowed it is because there were lots of bugs and hickups in Korea that they need to fix.
They won't send us a broken client. They'll fix it there and then deploy it to our servers (similar to the way Microsoft is rolling out the new Hotmail Wave 4 at the moment).
They won't send us a broken client. They'll fix it there and then deploy it to our servers (similar to the way Microsoft is rolling out the new Hotmail Wave 4 at the moment).
Didn't they put out a PTS with an exploitable enchanting system twice in a row (same exploit both times), then put the exploitable version onto our live servers (even after having fixed it on the PTS) once?
Also, Beleth/dragons/Frint being broken, even after they were broken (and fixed) in Korea; only for the broken versions being released here with the patch taking months to get sent over each time.
NCSoft NA/EU's customer support has been too horrendous for it to concern itself with decent QA now.
Now that dwarf obviously gonna have their blunt mastery changed to sword/blunt mastery.... they only need to add 2 handed mastery for dwarfs as well, to make it more realistic.
But adding sword mastery to dwarfs is a great start, no doubt about it.
What I really REALLY dont get tho, is what justifies giving disarm and rush to dreadnought, titan, GK and maestro, but NOT to FS? whats the big idea??
Im not even gonna get into how ridiculous and lame this fact is, cus im sure every FS in this game already knows and can imagine it.
I could understand it if FS had some other skill comming, but no, they get ZERO in high five.... once again.
In fact now that I think about it, they prolly cooking up something like giving FS a skill like "spoil rush"... would be yet another spoil for the collection... X_x
Didn't they put out a PTS with an exploitable enchanting system twice in a row (same exploit both times), then put the exploitable version onto our live servers (even after having fixed it on the PTS) once?
Also, Beleth/dragons/Frint being broken, even after they were broken (and fixed) in Korea; only for the broken versions being released here with the patch taking months to get sent over each time.
NCSoft NA/EU's customer support has been too horrendous for it to concern itself with decent QA now.
That's not the same as obvious bugs like Epic Raids which refuse to die no matter how long you beat on them with a full raid force and things like that.
Exploits can exist even after a proper PTS, and get put over here. NCNA doesn't do development, so Exploits aren't patched until they are found on the Korean Servers.
If the Exploits aren't reported until they get to our PTS, there are huge chances that it will go live until the Korean Developers fix it (because that exploit is most probably on their servers as well). Our PTS isn't really a PTS. It's just a playground for people to check and make sure the translations are accurate.
As an aside, most people who discover an exploit on the PTS will not report it. Players have a habit of keeping these things to themselves, so that they can benefit from them.
Something tell me you have never played on a properly run/managed MMORPG Test Server...
It doesn't change what I said. They found lots of bugs in Freya and had to do lots of patches in Korea. Everytime you patch, you basically have to re-QA lots of things. We won't get it until they are confident Korean Freya is stable and tested enough to deploy here. Our PTS is primarily for testing translations.
Exploits aren't the same as obvious bugs like Epic Raids which refuse to die no matter how long you beat on them with a full raid force and things like that.
Most of the time L2 players just cry on the forums (that the devs don't read). They don't actually test when they play the PTS.
So it's not surprising that those exploits got on the live server. The people who knew about it probably kept their mouth shut, so they could profit with them (as is usually the case).
Regardless of the classification of either exploit or bugs, having the same exploits/bugs being released onto live/consecutive PTSes still demonstrates that they have and probably will again give us clients with known exploits/bugs still intact. If you know that there was an exploit/bug (a big one, at that) in a prior PTS, wouldn't a competent QA team check to see if that exploit/bug was present in the next PTS?
Even ignoring the enchant exploit, certain raids have had the same bugs resurface into our live clients even after they've been fixed in the prior patch. Some bugs were even found in the Korean client, fixed for the Korean live servers, still make it here into our PTS, then into our live clients. And the most ridiculous part is that even though the fix existed and was already implemented in the Korean live servers, it still took several months for the fix to be sent over to our servers.
Seems like either I missed a couple of paragraphs at the end of your post, or you edited them in while I was replying to the unedited post. Either way:
Something tell me you have never played on a properly run/managed MMORPG Test Server...
Resort to ad hominem #1 (#2 depending on where one starts reading). Starting to sound a bit like that Dwarf earlier in the thread.
It doesn't change what I said. They found lots of bugs in Freya and had to do lots of patches in Korea. Everytime you patch, you basically have to re-QA lots of things. We won't get it until they are confident Korean Freya is stable and tested enough to deploy here. Our PTS is primarily for testing translations.
Already responded to it below, not really feeling like repeating for the sake of thread continuity/completism.
No. It simply proves that the Exploits weren't discovered on the Korean PTS when it was in testing. Our PTS isn't for testing the game client, it's for testing the translations. We get what they get, and the only time they will delay our PTS is if things are getting fixed in Korea, as was the case for Freya.
If an Exploit comes to our PTS, it will likely go live because the timetable is set and NCNA doesn't have the staff nor the power to dictate things like stalling a live deployment or fixing bugs in the game client.
Your issue is that you actually consider our PTS to be a test server. It's not. It's more of a staging server used to test translations.
Yes, if exploits are discovered, they are reported to Korea and patched. The Koreans do almost all the PTS testing. If they miss something, chances are we will end up getting it on our live servers.
Even ignoring the enchant exploit, certain raids have had the same bugs resurface into our live clients even after they've been fixed in the prior patch. Some bugs were even found in the Korean client, fixed for the Korean live servers, still make it here into our PTS, then into our live clients. And the most ridiculous part is that even though the fix existed and was already implemented in the Korean live servers, it still took several months for the fix to be sent over to our servers.
That's called regression. It's common in Software Development when your developers are either terrible, or careless (or your QA department is incompetent).
Yes, if the bugs are discovered after the US/EU PTS is getting ready to launch, chances are we will have to wait on a patch until after the live server.
Also, some bugs may be considered low priority, and thus not fixed. Some may not have even been properly reported to the Korean Developers by the NCWest staff.
You're making way too many assumptions in your quest to make a point, and being totally ignorant of the software development-to-deployment process to be taken seriously.
What I really REALLY dont get tho, is what justifies giving disarm and rush to dreadnought, titan, GK and maestro, but NOT to FS? whats the big idea??
Im not even gonna get into how ridiculous and lame this fact is, cus im sure every FS in this game already knows and can imagine it.
I could understand it if FS had some other skill comming, but no, they get ZERO in high five.... once again.
In fact now that I think about it, they prolly cooking up something like giving FS a skill like "spoil rush"... would be yet another spoil for the collection... X_x
They expect people to roll up several characters in order to be effective in all situations.
For example, if you could be effective in all situations with only 1 character after levelling it for 3 years, they would have to keep creating worthwhile content to keep you interested (and subscribed) after those 3 years.
However, if they could force you to have to level up more characters while keeping the same grind in order to reach the same effectiveness, that would supplement the time you'd be grinding by 3 years for every character you would have to level.
That's called regression. It's common in Software Development when your developers are either terrible, or careless (or your QA department is incompetent).
Regression is part of all competent QA schedules, as well.
Yes, if the bugs are discovered after the US/EU PTS is getting ready to launch, chances are we will have to wait on a patch until after the live server.
We're talking about bugs discovered (and oftentimes fixed) on the Korean PTS. We would see these bugs being reported from the Korean PTS, and we'd already (correctly) assume that we wouldn't be able to raid these bosses for a long while after the patch hit our live.
Also, some bugs may be considered low priority, and thus not fixed. Some may not have even been properly reported to the Korean Developers by the NCWest staff.
I wouldn't consider not being able to raid end game bosses low-priority.
You're making way too many assumptions in your quest to make a point, and being totally ignorant of the software development-to-deployment process to be taken seriously.
The bolded part of the previous quotation shows where you're making assumptions about the NCWest staff, as well.
The difference is that my assumptions are, at the very least, backed by 6 years of inept customer support.
BTW, ad hominem attacks generally don't help arguments, especially when you're speaking to someone who used to be in game production.
No. It simply proves that the Exploits weren't discovered on the Korean PTS when it was in testing. Our PTS isn't for testing the game client, it's for testing the translations. We get what they get, and the only time they will delay our PTS is if things are getting fixed in Korea, as was the case for Freya.
The bugs I'm speaking about were found and, in many (relative) cases, fixed during their PTSes or fixed in time before the patch hit their live.
If an Exploit comes to our PTS, it will likely go live because the timetable is set and NCNA doesn't have the staff nor the power to dictate things like stalling a live deployment or fixing bugs in the game client.
Speaking of the enchant exploit and not the bugs, the exploit made it to two seperate PTSes. So, that means that between one PTS and the next (at least several months in between), no one from Korea or NA thought to check if the exploit had resurfaced.
Your issue is that you actually consider our PTS to be a test server. It's not. It's more of a staging server used to test translations.
Unfortunately, this is hardly the case, and I believe I said as such somewhere earlier in this thread.
Yes, if exploits are discovered, they are reported to Korea and patched. The Koreans do almost all the PTS testing. If they miss something, chances are we will end up getting it on our live servers.
And if they do find something during their PTS testing, as prior updates have shown, there's a good chance it will still make it over here.
We're talking about bugs discovered (and oftentimes fixed) on the Korean PTS. We would see these bugs being reported from the Korean PTS, and we'd already (correctly) assume that we wouldn't be able to raid these bosses for a long while after the patch hit our live.
If they discovered the bug and didn't fix it, then it's a blatant decision on the developers or corporate to deploy the expansion and fix the bug later.
I wouldn't consider not being able to raid end game bosses low-priority.
The epic raid bug that I was talking about has been fixed on the Korean Servers. We don't even have the PTS yet. You didn't mention anything about any Epic boss. You were just talking about "some raid bosses," and we know 90% of the raids in L2 are trash content.
The bolded part of the previous quotation shows where you're making assumptions about the NCWest staff, as well.
I didn't make any assumptions. I'm speaking from information I've gotten from the Korean Live Servers. I have, however, offered some statements that would explain some of the situations that you have described. The use of the term "may" instead of "is/are/were" is indicitive of that.
The difference is that my assumptions are, at the very least, backed by 6 years of inept customer support.
BTW, ad hominem attacks generally don't help arguments, especially when you're speaking to someone who used to be in game production.
I'm sure you used to be in game production. /sarcasm
You sure don't talk like you were.
And being in Game Production doesn't qualify you as a software developer or server admin.
And if they do find something during their PTS testing, as prior updates have shown, there's a good chance it will still make it over here.
That's because the code is likely sent over here and staged before their PTS is over. I don't know what their server infrastructure is like, so I will avoid commenting further on it.
NCSoft West does have to get it a bit early and do some heavy-duty work on it. Localizing something as large as the L2 client is a huge undertaking.
I wonder why don't we get EVERYTHING available to Koreans. Even the payware stuff. I've seen some Korean clips with characters that wear glasses, have new agathions etc. WHY don't they give it to us? I cannot understand their logic.
If they discovered the bug and didn't fix it, then it's a blatant decision on the developers or corporate to deploy the expansion and fix the bug later.
Again, found and fixed on their PTS/before it hits their live. If what you're saying about how they wouldn't push a broken patch out onto our PTS were true, how is it that those bugs still made it to our PTS, and in most cases, subsequently into our live?
Yes, it may have been a "blatant decision" by the developers or corporate office to deploy the bugged client onto our PTS and then onto our Live servers, despite a fix already developed and deployed onto their home territory servers, but how exactly does that change the scenario from NCNA pushing a broken patch out onto our PTS into NCNA not pushing a broken patch out onto our PTS?
The epic raid bug that I was talking about has been fixed on the Korean Servers. We don't even have the PTS yet. You didn't mention anything about any Epic boss. You were just talking about "some raid bosses," and we know 90% of the raids in L2 are trash content.
I spelled it out quite clearly in the first reply in this particular debate, even listing "Beleth/dragons/Frint." I don't think I actually said "some raid bosses," nor used some derivative that would diminish the significance of those bosses I established as what I was speaking of in my first reply in this particular debate.
I didn't make any assumptions. I'm speaking from information I've gotten from the Korean Live Servers. I have, however, offered some statements that would explain some of the situations that you have described. The use of the term "may" instead of "is/are/were" is indicitive of that.
You're assuming that NCWest is delaying the deployment of the Freya PTS in order to make sure that the problems in the Korean Freya PTS and Live clients don't appear in our Freya PTS and Live clients. Historical evidence clearly sets precedent of that not being a concern for NCWest/NCKorea, thus my stance on the subject.
However, historical evidence also sets precedent as to why nothing about what happened/is happening on the Korean Live Servers should indicate any kind of direction for the NCWest Freya PTS/Live deployment.
While it is certainly possible that NCWest is delaying the deployment of our Freya PTS in order to make sure the problems with Freya on Korean PTS/Live don't happen here, historical evidence makes that possibility unlikely.
The difference here is that while you're seemingly willing to give NCWest the benefit of the doubt, I've considered how past PTS/Live update deployments have been handled, and given them what I believe to be exactly what they deserve in terms of faith - none at all.
*Historical evidence being the bugs discussed ad nauseam by myself - bugs that were fixed on Korean PTS making it to NA/EU PTS/Live blah blah blah not going to repeat it yet again.
I'm sure you used to be in game production. /sarcasm
You sure don't talk like you were.
And being in Game Production doesn't qualify you as a software developer or server admin.
And I guess that's #3 on the ad hominem attack counter.
Believe it or not, I don't really care.
I mean, it's not like I'm saying that regression analysis is only in the standard procedures of incompetent QA teams or anything.
That's because the code is likely sent over here and staged before their PTS is over. I don't know what their server infrastructure is like, so I will avoid commenting further on it.
NCSoft West does have to get it a bit early and do some heavy-duty work on it. Localizing something as large as the L2 client is a huge undertaking.
At least when NCNA was headquartered in Austin, they had one guy (yes, one) managing their entire network/server infrastructure for all of NCNA titles.
But, that's not really pertinent to the discussion.
Regardless of the work involved, customers (rightfully) expect to be taken care of. I've been on both sides of the fence (in several industries, not just game production), and even when the task at hand was more than what was even remotely feasible given the time and resources available, I still believe that the responsibility sits with the developer to deliver a quality product in a timely manner.
Never having a problem is great, but realistically impossible over the long term.
Having a problem, apologizing for it, and fixing things so that similar problems won't happen again is ok.
Having a problem, apologizing for it, and not fixing things (or fixing them well enough) so that similar problems will likely happen again is not ok, but is survivable.
Having a problem, not apologizing or even saying a word about the problem, then not fixing things so that similar problems will definitely happen again is NCSoft.
Assuming the best about NCWest, the problem would then be NCKorea for not allocating more resources to the administration of Lineage 2 in NA/EU.
I wonder why don't we get EVERYTHING available to Koreans. Even the payware stuff. I've seen some Korean clips with characters that wear glasses, have new agathions etc. WHY don't they give it to us? I cannot understand their logic.
I would imagine that it has something to do with our playerbase size and culture.
The more important issue is simple: Is Conter Critical (which rocks) actually worth the time, adena, energy, frustration, etc. it takes to level a Heirophant from 1 to 83?
Sometimes it sounds like people think Counter Critical makes Prophets automatically much better than other buffers, when it obviously doesn't.
I definitely don't think that having CC is enough to consider Prophets automatically much better than other buffers. I was merely pointing out something incredible that is still exclusive to (assumingly) his class that may brighten his perspective a bit.
I play a Dwarf main, so my opinion is probably different than most.
If I were to answer truthfully, if I had started a Prophet main back in OB, I probably would've been in a situation exactly as I am now - too high level to reroll/quit.
Of course, as I would likely be one of the last few live Prophets on any given server, I would likely stick with it in order to provide CC during raids/pvp, as it's an incredible buff.
But, is it worth it? I guess that depends on how clan-oriented you are.
I would imagine that it has something to do with our playerbase size and culture.
I would imagine that "our playerbase size" (the ever-shrinking one) has something to do with NCsoft not advertizing and not promoting the game properly (if at all).
i rly dont know what koreans ncsoft is doing...and why NA ncsoft agree to chnage/import all the bad changes..
few chronicles ago nukers were to strong, so they nerfed them, after that they nerfed archers, on last 10 or more chronicles/patches they nerfed/or boosted few more classes, ppl who played them stooped/quited/reroled.
Now they are nerfing kamaels -doombringers, lol..
sometimes i have feelings like ncsoft is trying to force ppl to "exp afk" or buy toons"..
why we cant play our toons w/o chance to be rolled/nerfed in next chronicle..We are spending few hours a day sometimes more to improve our toons, and now when i see changes in future im asking myself, why im doing it, why im playing so much, for what? -t o have destroyed toon in next chronicle or 2??
maybe its time to stop playing and paying for game..
ps
and no im not gona reroll another time to another class, im too old for it, and i dont have time for it..
i rly dont know what koreans ncsoft is doing...
sometimes i have feelings like ncsoft is trying to force ppl to "exp afk" or buy toons"..
why we cant play our toons w/o chance to be rolled/nerfed in next chronicle..We are spending few hours a day sometimes more to improve our toons, and now when i see changes in future im asking myself, why im doing it, why im playing so much, for what? -t o have destroyed toon in next chronicle or 2??
maybe its time to stop playing and paying for game..
ps
and no im not gona reroll another time to another class, im too old for it, and i dont have time for it..
I agree
Most of NA players quit when their toon was not himself after 1-2 updates of nerfing.
The most hard core of them bought the new top dd and played,so this industry of botting toons for sell was really active due to Nscoft frequent raising and falling of classes.
The add of top skills on buffers that were useless before also made people to bot to lvl those buffers.
We could write on and on, but the fact is we played withought a significant game thing.We never had vitality.
Propably if we had the same vit system/events Korean got from the start,we could easily lvl the new buffer to take the uber skill,or our new dd,but it was always too hard for us to keep going on our main and basic buffer,not a chance to do it to more toons.
Apart from vit,i believe most of players choosed a class to play cause they liked this particular class and the good thing for developers was to keep updating every class through the years,giving some boost once a while but never destroying the role of each class.
Their latest video of the new Frintezza raid shows multiple Hierophants (in s80 sigh) running around buffing ppl. Mostly for the Improved condition it seemed. Ironic how everyone in the raid could have gotten it in 1 second from a Dominator lol.
If you talk about the japanese raid, they were from like 10 different clans/alliances so how an OL could buff them all Condition is a mystery to me!
I have to ask now. Either what fail dwarves are you finding to exp with, or what fail Dreadnoughts have I had the displeasure of exping with? I admit Titans have dwarves beat in the aoe department, but why have I seen 5 different Dreadnoughts (3 in S80, 2 with Icarus Tridents, 1 with Dynasty Halberd, 1 was 80 but still in IC and had Dynasty Halberd) in my exp spot barely surviving without a 5-10 minute mana break every 40-60 minutes with a DC, SWS, BD, and Cardi live, and I could survive it alone with a DC and BD OOP when I was 80?
Dont act dumb..jewels > all
Even a SR could aoe better with 5/5 than a Warlord with only a Frint and an AQ lol
Thats the one im talking about, yes. Their failure to form clans is not my problem though, the raid could have been done with far less buffing needed.
I'm fairly sure the new Frint raid wont really need 10 clans to come together, even if they have beefed it up a bit.
Needless to say though, they could have had one overlord go from party to party and done buffs, and that would have still been quicker.
I loved how they went without Titans but with 3 or 4 Archer Parties. C4 much haha. Also noticed how the Vesper Bows only had Dyn sets and the Vesper sets only had Icarus/Dyn bows? Wtf is that about oO
I would imagine that "our playerbase size" (the ever-shrinking one) has something to do with NCsoft not advertizing and not promoting the game properly (if at all).
I saw an ad for Runes of Magic in TV yesterday...a freaking FREE GAME does more advertising than NC :/
You already had yours, or you werent so friendly with him? :roll:
I wasn't willing to get gear from ML since I wanted him to come back and play... :D
But then, there could be another reason, and I still think I'm quite friendly enought to ML through L2 and other stuff. ^^
If they retain this change after the Test Server updates, everything in Robes who likes PvP should just rage-quit the game now...
It's not about nerfing kamaels or w/e. Who gives a * about that (although making Doombringers redundant in such a stupid way is ******ed). It's about every freaking warrior rushing around with a skill that has zero re-use and that does significant damage.
Rush Impact and Disarm are pure pvp skills. Their application in PvE is so redundant it couldn't be used as an argument for cross pollination.
Positioning and kiting becomes non-existent and everyone is -9dex +Con, +Str and destroying ****. I don't even wanna' see how it gets affected by Charges and +30 Duellist Spirit....
If people thought shadow-step/Hide daggers hitting robes for 15k+made PvP in this game ******ed, how about unkite-able Frenzy/Zealot Titans/Full charged Duellists soloing you whole clan, hitting your squishies for 25k+ on normal counter-crit Titan auto-attacks? Sounds like fun right?
With the attribute (and attributes on armour) nerf for nukers as well as the locked re-use on nukes, they are done. I'm just waiting for the video of a Dorf/DN party soloing a whole nuker alliance group on siege field...
Oh hang on...
More penalties for killing people in an open pvp game?
Then there's giving Soul Hound's (don't care about the nukers) a 90% damage reduction skill for 10 seconds? On top of the CS the class already has? Lol? It's also a buff I can steal? Are you freaking serious!!!? I play the class and all I can say is lol at NC Soft... As if allowing SlH's to steal noble in PvP wasn't bad enough as it is...
And many ask why some classes are more botted than others...no wonder with this player mentality...+1
I'm sure a friend will have an 82 WS he or his clannies PL'd in HB/Darkness to craft Vesper.
As if every clan doesn't have at least 1 high-level WS alt for crafting.and how did they get 82+?
Exactly, being in a highlvl xp parties!
(1)And where are we going to get all these S80+ Fortune Seekers? There are hardly any high level Dwarves, and since this is an 80+ leveling spot.
This isn't Korea. Those classes are avoided here.
(2)Dwarf Class damage output is pathetic.(1)Not sure where you play but i see and know alot 80+ dwarves as mains.
(2)lol, are you serious?
Compared to a Tyrant, Gladiator, Destroyer, Dagger, and probably even an Archer with an Attributed Dagger...
Your DPS is bad.Comparing again...
and how did they get 82+?
Exactly, being in a highlvl xp parties!
What game do you play exactly?
They get it to high level the same way people level their boxed buffers/dancers to high level...
AFK in a corner while they pull trains in high level XP spots.
They are dwarf alts we're talking about, not real players. They are the alternate characters of real players, used to craft high level gears - the same way clans Powerleveled shot/s grade crafters since... forever.
(1)Not sure where you play but i see and know alot 80+ dwarves as mains.
(2)lol, are you serious?
Comparing again...
1. There aren't that many.
2. The damage output of a dwarf isn't even comparable to a Titan, GK, Gladiator (all other Warrior classes). Yes, Warlords are fairly gimp, but they can pole circles around any dwarf.
However, there is still hope for you. Bounty Hunter is subbable, so maybe you'll get your perma Vit4 for PvE happiness.
What game do you play exactly?L2, and you? oh wait...
They get it to high level the same way people level their boxed buffers/dancers to high level...
AFK in a corner while they pull trains in high level XP spots.
They are dwarf alts we're talking about, not real players. They are the alternate characters of real players, used to craft high level gears - the same way clans Powerleveled shot/s grade crafters since... forever.doesn't make any difference, they still take part of the xp in such parties, and yes there are still alot of live dwarves around, i rather have an active dwarf in party than one leeching afk (they are useful), not everyone is about "perfect" parties, but uh.. why do i bother to say that anyway ;)
1. There aren't that many.server? :confused:
2. The damage output of a dwarf isn't even comparable to ........ nevermind, comparison is too strong in you to see beyond it.
However, there is still hope for you. Bounty Hunter is subbable, so maybe you'll get your perma Vit4 for PvE happiness.all jokes aside, i was really thinking to sub a BH few months ago, just for the fun of it.
nevermind, comparison is too strong in you to see beyond it.
Comparison SHOULD be strong in anyone who's choosing which class to play/sub in a class that makes leveling up seem like a second job.
There's nothing wrong with the way in which I determine the comparative damage output of Dwarves.
Obviously more people agree with me, than you, judging by what I see in game.
I'm pretty sure the ability to help others level faster ceased to be a selling point for weak classes years ago.
It's okay to reply to a whole post, instead of chopping it into one liners (use numbers bullets if it'll help you). It's hard on the eyes, and wastes space (sort of like that entire reply, TBQH).
Perfect parties are what keep competitive clans competitive. The game is all about getting and retaining an advantage. You don't get that crappy party setups (Epic Raids, XP, PvP, etc.).
Just don't cry when you can't find a level 82 WS to craft your S84 items....
Pretty sure no clan is going to have an issue to have at least 1 WS 82+ in their Clan, and it's not like getting to 82 is really much of a challenge anymore with how easy they made XP'ing in this game, and even more so after the next update.
So u agree that Shinnai ebayed wind resist gear then?
He ebayed all his earth crystals to make a 350 BBH, I'm sure!!! :eek:
And he probably ebayed also a dyn light set for his StS, I know I would too!!! :love:
See how easy it is to just throw accusations?
Never questioned it, apparently I struck a nerve when I talked about Flipsy getting his gear for free from a "friend". And it's probably making people angry that I pointed out the incredible irony of him saying it's easy for every 80+ char to get the 5/5 knowing this.
Or it's an offensive accusation??? :eek:
And also, stop botting ur party in FOG Zarazatwa.
NO r WAY, it's uber and I hopeto hit 72 next month!!! :cool:
Pretty sure no clan is going to have an issue to have at least 1 WS 82+ in their Clan, and it's not like getting to 82 is really much of a challenge anymore with how easy they made XP'ing in this game, and even more so after the next update.
He ebayed all his earth crystals to make a 350 BBH, I'm sure!!! :eek:
And he probably ebayed also a dyn light set for his StS, I know I would too!!! :love:
Your obsession with DM, his gear, and his subs is hilarious.
I will help DM craft just about anything he wants at this point, just to see you guys react to it.
and how did they get 82+?
Exactly, being in a highlvl xp parties!
As if every clan doesn't have at least 1 high-level WS alt for crafting.
Bolded in my quote for emphasis.
The question was why anyone would have a Dwarf as a main. It's easy for anyone to simply start a Dwarf alt and stick it into an aoe party to get it to lvl 82 and kick it out for good for the rest of its existence.
But, what about the levels after level 82? Surely, dwarf mains would be interested in those levels.
Those "high level parties" that you speak of would be better served by picking a different DD class rather than a Dwarf for xp efficiency.
(1)Not sure where you play but i see and know alot 80+ dwarves as mains.
(2)lol, are you serious?
Yes, he's serious, and he's also very correct.
Comparing again...
In this debate about overall class balance, what would you rather have him do? Harmonize about how cute their animations and emotes are and use that as the basis for whether or not Dwarves can compete against other classes in pvp/pve?
Assuming that you're interested in maximizing xp/pvp efficiency and effectiveness, you will compare classes. With the current class balance, Dwarves are dead-last in terms of what you want for a party.
Since you're not interested in maximizing xp/pvp efficiency and would rather take people based on other criteria (RPing, socializing, whatever), this debate is absolutely of no importance to you, so you'd probably want to stay out of it.
doesn't make any difference, they still take part of the xp in such parties, and yes there are still alot of live dwarves around, i rather have an active dwarf in party than one leeching afk (they are useful), not everyone is about "perfect" parties, but uh.. why do i bother to say that anyway ;)
Again, you're confused about the difference between Dwarf mains and alts, and somehow also ignoring the effect of having other classes in the game other than Dwarves upon the demand for Dwarf mains in pve/pvp.
I'll simplify it for you:
If I have to take a Dwarf in my party, then yes, I would rather have a live Dwarf played than an alt/afk Dwarf.
However, if I don't have to have a Dwarf in my party, even if it's a live Dwarf, then I would pick a better DD class instead of the Dwarf.
This is where that class comparison thing that you laughed at comes in to explain why that is.
And that's also why it makes a difference - All clans need a Maestro in order to craft things, but they don't need a live one; there is absolutely no benefit to having a live Dwarf in party when other, better DD classes are available to take its place in the party.
This means that, whether a live Dwarf or an alt Dwarf, once that Dwarf is level 82, there's no reason to keep that Dwarf in party anymore. Since levelling past level 82 is important for Dwarf mains, the current class balance basically screws them, since parties in good clans wouldn't want them in lieu of better DD classes.
nevermind, comparison is too strong in you to see beyond it.
If you care at all for the competition in this game, then you'd care about the class comparisons, as well.
I will help DM craft just about anything he wants at this point, just to see you guys react to it.
Considering it'd be a total waste of ressources to do anything for such a guy, go ahead, I'm quite sure I'd sleep perfectly well anyways. Not like it'd change my life, my gaming experience or the global internet experience of anyone. :(
And TBH the hilarious thing is DM taking our critics of his odd choice of gear for jealousy and accusing us of ebaying our gear because of that.
Perfect parties are what keep competitive clans competitive. The game is all about getting and retaining an advantage. You don't get that crappy party setups (Epic Raids, XP, PvP, etc.).
(also for you OrcZilla) Exactly my point, these kind of discussions are only about competitiveness, while there are ppl out there playing dwarves as mains not for competitiveness reasons, but for fun/RPing/etc.
Meaning that ppl DO play dwarves as mains and are out there in big numbers (don't deny you haven't seen them around), no matter what the competitive ppl say that they're non-factors/carebears/whatever.
They're anything but useless and do matter to the community (not saying you said that, just putting that out here).
The question was why anyone would have a Dwarf as a main. It's easy for anyone to simply start a Dwarf alt and stick it into an aoe party to get it to lvl 82 and kick it out for good for the rest of its existence.
Those "high level parties" that you speak of would be better served by picking a different DD class rather than a Dwarf for xp efficiency.So, what are you saying?
- Ppl put them in aoe parties to get them to lvl82.
- Ppl don't put them in parties due to xp efficiency.
What i'm saying is, why let those dwarves leech to lvl82, while they can make themselves useful in aoe parties to and beyond lvl82?
Sure Titans/DN's are better if you're only in for efficiency, but what if they're not around or busy? and a dwarf friend is available to join?
.
EDIT: i saw your other post after i made this reply OrcZilla.
(also for you OrcZilla) Exactly my point, these kind of discussions are only about competitiveness, while there are ppl out there playing dwarves as mains not for competitiveness reasons, but for fun/RPing/etc.
Meaning that ppl DO play dwarves as mains and are out there in big numbers (don't deny you haven't seen them around), no matter what the competitive ppl say that they're non-factors/carebears/whatever.
They're anything but useless and do matter to the community (not saying you said that, just putting that out here).
How does improving Dwarves affect their ability to RP/play for fun? If Dwarves were somehow made into the best pve/pvp class tomorrow, would that somehow keep these people who play them for non-competitive reasons from playing them for non-competitive reasons?
The one thing that was said that is 100% true that people keep taking issue with is that Dwarves are severely underpowered and need significant boosting in terms of pve/pvp. What exactly do you disagree with about that statement?
What problem do you have with people wanting NCSoft to make Dwarves more competitive? Do you even know, or are you just arguing because someone said something bad (however true) about Dwarves?
What i'm saying is, why let those dwarves leech to lvl82, while they can make themselves useful in aoe parties to and beyond lvl82?
Because Dwarves (Maestros in this example) need only level 82 in order to reach craft level 10.
Because (beyond level 82) Dwarves can't do as much damage as a Titan or Dreadnaught in aoe parties, and in single-target parties, many other DDs can do better damage than Dwarves.
Also, if you don't need another DD in order to AoE/single-target pve, then it's better to not invite anyone else so everyone currently in the party will get more xp.
Sure Titans/DN's are better if you're only in for efficiency, but what if they're not around or busy? and a dwarf friend is available to join?
If you need another DD in your party in order to xp where you're going, and if no other DDs are available, then you get the Dwarf. This means that Dwarves are your last resort, which is hardly ever the case, and is the problem with Dwarves being so weak in terms of pvp/pve.
Making Dwarves stronger would increase their attractiveness to pve/pvp groups, making them more than a last-resort choice.
(1)How does improving Dwarves affect their ability to RP/play for fun?
(2)If Dwarves were somehow made into the best pve/pvp class tomorrow, would that somehow keep these people who play them for non-competitive reasons from playing them for non-competitive reasons?
(3)The one thing that was said that is 100% true that people keep taking issue with is that Dwarves are severely underpowered and need significant boosting in terms of pve/pvp. What exactly do you disagree with about that statement?
(4)What problem do you have with people wanting NCSoft to make Dwarves more competitive? Do you even know, or are you just arguing because someone said something bad (however true) about Dwarves?
(5)If you need another DD in your party in order to xp where you're going, and if no other DDs are available, then you get the Dwarf. This means that Dwarves are your last resort, which is hardly ever the case, and is the problem with Dwarves being so weak in terms of pvp/pve.
(1) None, did i mention something about that? no.
(2) No, again, where did i mention anything about that?
(3) Where did i disagree with that statement?
I only said they aren't as weak as ppl say they are, comparing them to stronger classes doesn't mean they can't stand their own ground, ofcourse they would be helped with a boost, in no sense did i disagree with that exact statement.
(4) How did you came up with that conclusion? please elaborate, because i have no problem with it at all.
(5) Yes, this is true for comparison reasons, outside of that they can still stand their ground, ask dwarf mains around you or check their posts on this forum.
This means that, whether a live Dwarf or an alt Dwarf, once that Dwarf is level 82, there's no reason to keep that Dwarf in party anymore. Since levelling past level 82 is important for Dwarf mains, the current class balance basically screws them, since parties in good clans wouldn't want them in lieu of better DD classes.
Which also means that playing a Dwarf against those better DD classes is like playing this game in hardcore mode.
(2) No, again, where did i mention anything about that?
Then, quit whining when people point out the obvious shortcomings of Dwarves that need to be addressed for the competitive portion of this game.
None of the competitive players care that Dwarves can get a party in RP/non-competitive clans. What matters to competitive players is that there's nothing in pve/pvp that a Dwarf can do that other classes can't do better, which is why in competitive clans/parties, Dwarves are the least-sought classes.
(3) Where did i disagree with that statement?
I only said they aren't as weak as ppl say they are, comparing them to stronger classes doesn't mean they can't stand their own ground, ofcourse they would be helped with a boost, in no sense did i disagree with that exact statement.
Every time something like this is said, it gives the developers in Korea reason to say "Dwarves are fine!" and leave them as underpowered as they are.
And "standing their own ground" requires being compared against other classes. As long as you refuse to compare one class to another, you can take any class and say the same thing because without comparison, that statement is essentially pointless - of course Dwarves can "stand their own ground" when you don't consider how much more efficient other DD classes are. If Dwarves were the only DD classes in the game, then every party wold be required to take them, as there would be no other DD classes to pick from.
Again, competitive players don't care that you and your clan take Dwarves into parties over other, better DD classes - competitive players care about efficiency and effectiveness in pve/pvp, and that's where the Dwarf classes won't get picked over all other DD classes, and that's the problem that we're facing.
(4) How did you came up with that conclusion? please elaborate, because i have no problem with it at all.
I'm going to borrow something from Trensharo that I didn't even realize I was borrowing until I read it in another thread:
Taking issue with Trensharo's accurate assessment of Dwarves' damage output is exactly an example as to why things don't get changed for the better.
While you're completely happy with how Dwarves are, you're living inside a relative "bubble," where competition seems to rank very low on your hierarchy.
That's all fine and good, but the problem arises when you and others like you come in here and "lol" and generally object to competitive players' accurate comments about Dwarves' damage output in competitive aspects of the game, which not only do you not seem to care about, but also the parties/clans of which you're a part don't seem to care about as well.
A simple analogy:
Assume that Trensharo were a petroleum engineer.
What you're doing would be like if Trensharo told the oil company that the way they're refining the oil they drill is inefficient and there are better ways to refine the oil, then you, as a common citizen, tells the oil company that their refining methods are fine because you can fuel up your car and drive to work everyday.
Another analogy:
I'm not an RPer, nor I do I care at all about RPing. Therefore, I'm not going to stick my admittedly RP-noob objections into a discussion about RP issues because I'm not an RPer, nor do I care at all about RPing.
(5) Yes, this is true for comparison reasons, outside of that they can still stand their ground, ask dwarf mains around you or check their posts on this forum.
Check my posts on this forum. Hell, check this thread. I am a Dwarf main.
And whether or not Dwarves can "stand their ground" is based on a comparison between Dwarves and other classes. Otherwise, any class can "stand their ground" as long as they can swing their weapon at a mob.
back ontopic?
If you wanted this back on topic, then you shouldn't have contributed to the (albeit minor) derailment of it in the first place, though this is still somewhat on topic, since we're (sort of) speaking about Dwarf changes in High Five.
People who think this is a PvE game simply won't get it. I'm not even going to bother contributing to this thread anymore. It's like bashing yur head against a brick wall, and having it talk back to you in a sweet, sarcastic manner.
Class Balance discussions on this forum always end up this way. There are too many players who haven't played much else playing this game, and they're fairly content - even being gimp.
If you think making BH a walking XP potion balances the class, you're crazy
People who think this is a PvE game simply won't get it. I'm not even going to bother contributing to this thread anymore. It's like bashing yur head against a brick wall, and having it talk back to you in a sweet, sarcastic manner.
Class Balance discussions on this forum always end up this way. There are too many players who haven't played much else playing this game, and they're fairly content - even being gimp.
If you think making BH a walking XP potion balances the class, you're 100% (to later be edited by sace).
I get it.
so if you've never played another MMO, you don't understand balancing.
so, are we to go on the theory give everyone Nukes, and they will be afraid to use them? by distributing the over powered skills, we are not fixing anything, we are just making the problem more of a problem.
ok, i'll admit it, if i got more than 1 skill out of this update, i might feel better about everyone else getting Rush, Disarm, Buff steeling, and 10 second God mode...
So, what are you saying?
- Ppl put them in aoe parties to get them to lvl82.
- Ppl don't put them in parties due to xp efficiency.
What i'm saying is, why let those dwarves leech to lvl82, while they can make themselves useful in aoe parties to and beyond lvl82?
Sure Titans/DN's are better if you're only in for efficiency, but what if they're not around or busy? and a dwarf friend is available to join?
Not gonna reply to the first part, since it's the usual filibustering and circular argument. I speak near perfect English and I'm more than sure I have written clearly enough for you to know what I mean. I have repeated myself half a dozen times in this thread.
Anyways...
People can put them in AoE parties and level them to 82.
People can AoE with boxed OOP buffers and 1 Poler and get it to 82 fast. It's very efficient to PL a toon. Ask any end-gamer.
They let the dwarves leach because they are an alt crafter that they are leveling to 82 so they can kick it out of party (until there is a new craft level and it needs to level again) and use it to craft clan/alliance gear. Even if a clan has a high level WS in clan (for the hero spot), it would still behoove them to level an alt crafter because if that WS gets banned or quits game they are ******.
I get it.
so if you've never played another MMO, you don't understand balancing.
so, are we to go on the theory give everyone Nukes, and they will be afraid to use them? by distributing the over powered skills, we are not fixing anything, we are just making the problem more of a problem.
ok, i'll admit it, if i got more than 1 skill out of this update, i might feel better about everyone else getting Rush, Disarm, Buff steeling, and 10 second God mode...
last new skill i got? Burning chop.(exagerated)
Has nothing to do with playing another MMORPG, but people who only have played this one know only this one. That means they basically haven't played a game that resembles anything near balanced, and have never experienced an involved development team with focus on balance.
People who think this is a PvE game simply won't get it. I'm not even going to bother contributing to this thread anymore. It's like bashing yur head against a brick wall, and having it talk back to you in a sweet, sarcastic manner.
Class Balance discussions on this forum always end up this way. There are too many players who haven't played much else playing this game, and they're fairly content - even being gimp.
If you think making BH a walking XP potion balances the class, you're crazy
It's like everyone's taking crazy pills.
How the hell did you manage to keep reading/replying in this forum long enough to get almost 5k posts?! I would've gone insane long before then.
He stopped to play over half a year ago cause he didnt see much point playing a 84 WS without getting some love from NC. Might be back in Freya/^5 tho to rush'n'disarm stuff :o
Matching people with others of similar points is dubious. People who feed points out aren't necessarily as weak as a toon who loses and ends up with few points.
Olympiad has always been a bit of a failed sidegame in L2 and the only reason why we pay so much attention to it is because Heroes are blatantly overpowered.
Sry Tren and Zilla, i just have to lol about your posts, concluding things from my posts that weren't mentioned ^^
Which also means that playing a Dwarf against those better DD classes is like playing this game in hardcore mode.
And I like it this way. :)+1, some ppl can only live with everything optimal and easy-mode...
so much anger in this threadYeah, not sure whats up with that hehe
Aww :(
I guess Warsmiths are balanced, right, Nuku?lol Tren, keep on trolling <3
- that's 1 person, doesn't mean the whole population thinks the same.
- did i talk about balancing? nope, now who's concerned about that here? hmm, oh yeah... you :rolleyes:
my dream toon is a dwarf subbed plainswalker, Could you even imagine?I would love to see that :D
lol Tren, keep on trolling <3
- that's 1 person, doesn't mean the whole population thinks the same.
- did i talk about balancing? nope, now who's concerned about that here? hmm, oh yeah... you
You're assuming NaNa is the only WS who quit because his class was incredibly gimp and out of balance...
That wasn't a troll. That statement I wrote makes perfect sense. You're looking at things from an uber PvE/RP point of view and it's wildly incompatible with class balance discussions in a PvP game.
I hope I don't have to define troll, yet again (for the 200th time)...
You're assuming NaNa is the only WS who quit because his class was incredibly gimp and out of balance...
That wasn't a troll. That statement I wrote makes perfect sense. You're looking at things from an uber PvE/RP point of view and it's wildly incompatible with class balance discussions in a PvP game.
I hope I don't have to define troll, yet again (for the 200th time)...
Not even only that. Lechat was like one of the most active and helpful guys you could find in this game and on those boards. And in the end he loved his WS so much that he rather quit than rerolled cause it was simply too unbalanced.
people dont care about class balance, just what will happen to their chars. if you want class balance go to a private server where steal divinity has been put on a 30 minute cooldown timer.
People like high level Titans that are getting Rush Skills don't care about it, at the moment, because if the devs were actually balancing the game they wouldn't be making imba classes even more imba in things like Olympiad.
In short: Your response is totally predictable. Stop trying so hard.
I didn't mention Steal Divinity.
They're already putting that on a fixed reuse in the update, and buffsteal talismans aren't hard to get :P
People who think this is a PvP game simply don't get it.
/fixed
It's great that you like the PvP features of this game - I do too.
Many people find the PvE experience in L2 incredibly boring and repetitive - a perfectly reasonable opinion.
But honestly, ever since C2 or so PvP oriented NA players have been mindlessly repeating the mantra that "L2 is a PvP game".
It is not, regardless of the fact that many of us play it as such.
Lineage 2 is, and always has been, focused *primarily* on improving one's character through PvE. Unless you cheat, you will spend 90+% of your time in-game fighting monsters and raid bosses.
PvP has always been there as well, as an option for achieving your in-game goals. (One of which might be simply to have fun fighting other people.)
But to claim that PvP is the *main focus* of the game is ridiculous.
You (or Diego, or phoenixdown, or whoever) can make 25,647 forum posts claiming that it is, but that doesn't make it true.
Lineage 2 is a Korean game, and L2's Korean developers and players, both past and present, have always focused more on the PvE aspects of the game. Deal with it, or quit, it's up to you.
Even the Korean Devs may have billed L2 as a pvp game,
but lets be honest, if this is a pvp game, why do people need to spend
3/4 of their time lvling up via pve ???
L2 does have good pvp elements to it, but pve is what people have to spend most of their time doing.
It's great that you like the PvP features of this game - I do too.
Many people find the PvE experience in L2 incredibly boring and repetitive - a perfectly reasonable opinion.
But honestly, ever since C2 or so PvP oriented NA players have been mindlessly repeating the mantra that "L2 is a PvP game".
It is not, regardless of the fact that many of us play it as such.
Lineage 2 is, and always has been, focused *primarily* on improving one's character through PvE. Unless you cheat, you will spend 90+% of your time in-game fighting monsters and raid bosses.
PvP has always been there as well, as an option for achieving your in-game goals. (One of which might be simply to have fun fighting other people.)
But to claim that PvP is the *main focus* of the game is ridiculous.
You (or Diego, or phoenixdown, or whoever) can make 25,647 forum posts claiming that it is, but that doesn't make it true.
Lineage 2 is a Korean game, and L2's Korean developers and players, both past and present, have always focused more on the PvE aspects of the game. Deal with it, or quit, it's up to you.
If L2 wasnt made as a pvp game(which need you spend 3/4 of your time on grinding/crafting to get lvl/gear and go pvp,then tell me what classes like necro/overlord/ee are doing in the game?
Just think the originals classes,not as they are now with added buffs.
Overlord could never find a party or solo cause he had not enough buffs or skills for pve,EE the same,they could find a spot only inside big pvp clans which would lvl them for their 2-3 usefull on pvp skills.
Necro,had so many curses/debuffs,they couldnt be placed in the bar!(remember we had 1 bar)Even when 3 bars introduced,slots were not enough!Almost none of these skills was used on pve,mobs back then didnt required silence,or weakness and nukers used sleep for croud control.
If L2 wasnt made as a pvp game(which need you spend 3/4 of your time on grinding/crafting to get lvl/gear and go pvp,then tell me what classes like necro/overlord/ee are doing in the game?
Just think the originals classes,not as they are now with added buffs.
Overlord could never find a party or solo cause he had not enough buffs or skills for pve,EE the same,they could find a spot only inside big pvp clans which would lvl them for their 2-3 usefull on pvp skills.
Necro,had so many curses/debuffs,they couldnt be placed in the bar!(remember we had 1 bar)Even when 3 bars introduced,slots were not enough!Almost none of these skills was used on pve,mobs back then didnt required silence,or weakness and nukers used sleep for croud control.
Because there is SOME pvp at all, but you don´t need both classes to fill the pvp aspect of the game, you can do it without both.
Because there is SOME pvp at all, but you don´t need both classes to fill the pvp aspect of the game, you can do it without both.
I'm sorry but you dont create 3 classes inside this game totaly made for pvp if your plans were a game with SOME pvp on it(not to mention the pvp/debuff skills given to several other classes).
Necro was and still is the most expensive nuker to lvl, with catakombes dark resists on game where farming catakombes was everything.Noone would choose a necro among nukers if there wasnt to pvp.
And noone would make ee and ol if he just wanted to make a buffer class that can find a party to play and lvl,buffer classes were depending from their partys untill recently,they couldnt even make their class change quest alone.
Original developers had their big picture about this game long ago.
Necro was and still is the most expensive nuker to lvl, with catakombes dark resists on game where farming catakombes was everything.Noone would choose a necro among nukers if there wasnt to pvp.
There were no catacombs in the beginning (catacombs are C3). People were levelling in 9-man party locations, which needed heals and crowd control.
And noone would make ee and ol if he just wanted to make a buffer class
Because they aren't "a buffer class". But they could help the PP/SE with a couple of buffs (or recharges) while healing and crowd controlling for the party.
Besides, EE was the best polearm healer (when there were no VR, no tattoos and heals had considerable reuse time bound to castspeed).
And Koreans don't really care about cookie-cutter party setups (neither I personally do).
they couldnt even make their class change quest alone.
I did my first ever 2nd class change in L2 mostly alone... and that was on an EE.
Original developers had their big picture about this game long ago.
Original developers were idiots. The current ones aren't better though.
Even the Korean Devs may have billed L2 as a pvp game,
but lets be honest, if this is a pvp game, why do people need to spend
3/4 of their time lvling up via pve ???
L2 does have good pvp elements to it, but pve is what people have to spend most of their time doing.
L2 is a 3/4 pve game & 1/4 pvp.
Because it's an MMORPG and if there aren't any timesinks people get bored fast and die.
The timesink (grind) it what forces people to cohabitate in the game, otherwise it's nothing but an FPS that took 3x the development time/cash to get to market.
L2 is 3/4 PvE and 1/4 PvP because players like 80% of the forum dwellers here (and the Koreans) made it so.
That is not the intended design.
Another reason for the grind is the fact that NCSoft is simply terrible at content development. How long before they put in 79/80 skills? They had to move skills to 83 just to give people a purpose and there isn't any 84/85 skills in the game. Stuff like that.
Slowing down your progression buys them more time to develop content that is not there, but should be.
It almost sounds like a lot of people here weren't playing when the servers were actually active.
You're assuming NaNa is the only WS who quit because his class was incredibly gimp and out of balance...
That wasn't a troll. That statement I wrote makes perfect sense. You're looking at things from an uber PvE/RP point of view and it's wildly incompatible with class balance discussions in a PvP game.I'm assuming nothing.
Your post i replied to was made only about the poster above you, otherwise you would have made that post alot earlier, it was 50/50 sense/a troll.
You on the other hand do assume that i'm looking at things from an uber PvE/RP p.o.v., this is partly right as i'm looking at the whole picture and PvE is a big thing in this game, RP is optional but not evadable in a RPG...
Devoting your time to forums dominated by PvErs does skew one's perspective.I'm around here and there.
Shall we move on?