Facts:
Last merger was bad, as soon as it happened numbers fell faster than before, now are still on the downside but we enjoyed many month of relative stability.
If the business model will not improve, this will happen again, for the reasons I explained elsewhere.
As such, I make this official proposition and I hope it will be at least considered by the team, before throwing the automated official answers.
In short I want a clean start for the ppl who wish to do it, also a great idea to bring back some old players to enjoy the romanticism of that unexplored new server, but, with a twist.
I want to have some special effort put into policing that new server, never let the bot infest it at such a degree that will be like the others.
How that will be done, remains to be seen, but I offer here some alternatives, feel free to add some more, lets have the community actually decide for something, lets try a new way because, at least for me, the old ways look like dead ends.
The decision of merging is made, I doubt seriously they will listen to the player base on what business model to use (it's a company, bosses define the model not to customers).
This is not really about merge, just derived from it.
Since the merge did not work, maybe creating a clean start and moreGMs to police + perhaps some community police like other games have will bring at least some hope. I am willing to pay extra for a GM to look into my reports.
Who knows, I had to try, they want our opinions, feed-back, etc.
M
I'm afraid it's wasted effort but I can understand you playing the advocate of the devil (I tried it also).
Again as I stated those type of decisions are made by the big bosses and those are linked to regulations within the company...After 6 years you kinda know what will or won't happen :)
Also sorry to say but I am in no way willing to start all over again...I worked 6 years legitly to get to where I am now on my toons and with my clan. I hardly feel like doing that all over again oO (unless you ment clean start server wise only and not restart from scratch on toons).
Freya and the Server Merges are closely linked on the technical side, and we are still working on making a plan around which one will happen first.
Still no word on when, I'm sorry. The soonest would be in a little over a month, because we want to give you 1 month notice before the merges actually happen. The latest... I would like to say before 6 months. I'd even say its 80% chance it will happen before 3 months from now. But the very reason that we haven't announced dates is because the dates and plans keep on changing. Therefore, speculate at your own risk. We will announce the dates when they are definite.
imho ncsoft has no plan at all .... as usual :(
that they obviously (ab)use server merges as reason to (heavily) delay freya update for NA servers, makes me angry :mad:
No, i mean new clean server start over because every bot can claim he is legit and ask for transfer. I dont believe in "becoming legit" you are either legit all the time or not.
I understand what you mean, I play for many years too, it will be hard, but I am willing to make this sacrifice if there is a new business model that can offer some sort of guarantee, at least hope that same sad story wont happen again.
Who does not want to start over, of course, will remain in their server(s), but there are scores of former players that would like that and many present players that are ready to do it, in fact, what there is to be lost ? One less server retired at the merger, a bit more electricity ?
I want hope, more than anything, I want to believe we can take a turn, last merge didnt work, this one will fail the same if nothing changes, will just bring the end one step closer.
L2 is doing fine in other conditions, there are very solid comunities, we can do it, lets hope together !
M
That is why i proposed a change of model. Either pay more, change the way it is payd, pay per report, etc. I dont know how can they implement something like that, but I am sure there can be a cheap way to tax some extra for those that are willing to pay for a fair game.
Besides, i am counting on the fact they know this merger will be a failure too in the same conditions like the last one so maybe a tiny bit of change ?
M
EDIT: I see all that voted except me have no hope. Then maybe it is time for a new game for all of us. Who knows a hard game with little botting ?
A simple change of the payment model, without changing the type of the relations between NC West and NC Korea, won't work. The complete revamp of the business model (separation and sale of NC West L2 operations) could technically work, but NCsoft won't find a buyer, neither is interested in looking for one.
Perhaps not a sale, more like a lease, pay per active account, or something. Why have 100% of a loss making business (even if it is not making a loss it is still insignifficant profit) when you can have a guaranteed income without headaches ?
We want tournaments, mounts, etc...
M
I wish there was an option to stay on the server I love at the moment and not be forced to move :(
I guess the bots already won on that field, they did force a merger and it is a surely lost battle to try reverse that decision.
At least on this they didnt say anything yet.
M
I don't want a new server, I want efficient GMs with the money I already pay.
That is also impossible, they never managed to do it and probably they lack the will too. But if we are successful with a new server perhaps there will the proof that bots destroy l2, contrary to what they say, that they save it.
M
That is also impossible, they never managed to do it and probably they lack the will too. But if we are successful with a new server perhaps there will the proof that bots destroy l2, contrary to what they say, that they save it.
M
You don't seem to understand. With each new server they were supposed to make it free of cheaters. They didn't manage to do it. How would they become suddenly efficient?
Also I'm not paying for them to ignore my server and only ban on a new server, that's outrageous to even suggest that. Are you so desperate that you accept that on current servers it's ok to cheat and want to force other players to accept it too?
The only solution is to detect all cheating programs efficiently, ban a few days first so those who are ready to stop cheating stay (and see the efficiency), and those who play L2 only because they can cheat get banned definitely if they try again. And that, on all the servers.
The key word is efficiency. If they can detect them easily and cheaters see that they won't be able to dodge the ban, those who just followed the cheating trend to compete in PvP have a chance to come back to the right path, and the others are better out.
I didnt suggest ban less in the other servers, just ban the same.
An you dont understand either, they did try partial bans, half the bots quit half were back with a new train in 2 months. Either they ban all bots or they start a new server where only legits will be allowed.
It is obvious that banning all bots will leave us with one server only and that half full at best.
So I offered a mixed solution, add a bot free server, we pay more and they hire NEW gms to police it, not take from the other ones. Also some kind of community police can be developped, like the ppl which turned the highest positive rates will have their reports treated preferentially or we can pay by minute for every investigation, I just need to see the train banned and I am willing to pay heaps for that. I bet others too.
M
I pay for a bot free server already. Now I should pay more?
If bots are back, then that means GMs are not efficient. So of course it doesn't work.
We shouldn't have to pay more to have the service that is a due. If they're not making enough money to pay more GMs, then they must use a better method. More GMs, that can wipe bot trains, but won't stop cheaters. We need something efficient, and if NCsoft had thought about that issue right from the start, they wouldn't have lost so many players and L2 wouldn't have such a bad reputation. They can't throw at us that worthless GameGuard in the nose and think that cheaters aren't their problem if they are paying their subs. The consequence is there : less and less players, and absolutely no way to advertize such a dirty game.
And when you only have word of mouth advertisement at your disposal because let's face it, marketing is the first budget to be lowered, what do you expect to get with the reputation of L2?
The problem doesn't come from us not paying enough, it comes from their methods. Stop finding "solutions" in the innocent's wallet. Thank you.
The decision of merging is made, I doubt seriously they will listen to the player base on what business model to use (it's a company, bosses define the model not to customers).
sadly true :/
it was pretty clear that that simple poll showed there were more ppl against the merge than those that welcome the merge, and then it got deleted :/
and we get no public vote either, while we're still the paying customers, their loss in the end.
The problem doesn't come from us not paying enough, it comes from their methods. Stop finding "solutions" in the innocent's wallet. Thank you.
Nobody asked for your money, if you are happy with the current ways, no problem, I am not. Old ways are clearly not working, what makes you believe they will suddenly decide to clear the game and keep only one server ? That wont happen, we need first to show that a clean game is a profitable one, and that the bots destroy the game, not save it so they should stop listen to them when they ask for more mergers and other things against our will.
M
Nobody asked for your money, if you are happy with the current ways, no problem, I am not. Old ways are clearly not working, what makes you believe they will suddenly decide to clear the game and keep only one server ? That wont happen, we need first to show that a clean game is a profitable one, and that the bots destroy the game, not save it so they should stop listen to them when they ask for more mergers and other things against our will.
M
Are you totally mad, or is there a little bit of sanity with which I can speak? I'm not happy with the current ways. I want bots to be banned, so yes, you're asking me money. Stop contradicting yourself!
And about what I think they're going to do, I'm sorry to break your weird dreams, but they're more likely to apply the same strict method of bot detection (if they find one) to all the server rather than create a new server with more GMs exclusively for that server. Frankly if you call me delusional here, in comparison you've lost your last grain of sanity. :/
Are you totally mad, or is there a little bit of sanity with which I can speak? I'm not happy with the current ways. I want bots to be banned, so yes, you're asking me money. Stop contradicting yourself!
And about what I think they're going to do, I'm sorry to break your weird dreams, but they're more likely to apply the same strict method of bot detection (if they find one) to all the server rather than create a new server with more GMs exclusively for that server. Frankly if you call me delusional here, in comparison you've lost your last grain of sanity. :/
Since they didnt ban the bots in so many years they wont start now when they are 60% probably, even tho the proportion is decreasing. We had more than 80% in some times, I know for a fact they wont ban all bots and wont keep banning them if they do it once like before and any partial solution is as good as no solution moneywise.
I am trying to find some incentives here, I am ready to pay more, others too, I am just curious how many want to continue this way and how many want a change.
I bet this data will be at least a bit interesting to them. They say they want our feedback, lets give it and move on.
M
P.S.
Isn't the definition of insanity this: doing the same thing yet expecting different results?
Exactly my point, we need to break the circle of ban bots half quit half are back, ban again after 6 months, half quit half are back so this only makes them lose players and banning all bots will mean we have only one server half full because legits dont play 24/7 usually so there will be lower population online even tho the overall numbers wont drop so significantly. How will that half server pay new content, let alone GMs to police it ? Read my lips, current ways are dead ends, we need something different, maybe radically different.
While I would be delighted to have the option to pay more sub fee for a "GM hotzone" server, the idea of it goes against what NCSoft purport to be the case in existing servers.
Using external programs etc is already against the terms of conditions for all servers, so how could they justify asking for more subscription fees for a server that was "even better" at stopping cheaters do something which is already not allowed. Incidentally, I think I understand what youre trying to do here, and its admirable; but the solution is not a new server, the solution MUST be to fix the situation on all existing servers.
As you can see by my tag line i have left. I believe my account expires July 7th.
The reason i leave is that the egg fell off the wall and all the kings horses and all king's men can't fix it.
Because of greed NC allowed a great game to get messed up so that cheaters prosper. They did this because they have no integrity. Their legit customers didn't matter. They lied many times over and this type of false representation should not go unrewarded.
I will never play another NC game.
$15.00 a month isn't much and i'm sure NC couldn't give a ***** but its the least i could do.
As far as merging servers goes what does it matter. Those that propered because they cheated with no repercussions are still at the top.
Good luck 420 everyone saw you bot, get banned and then allowed back in. NC in a nutshell. Sure merge servers that will make things right!
As you can see by my tag line i have left. I believe my account expires July 7th.
The reason i leave is that the egg fell off the wall and all the kings horses and all king's men can't fix it.
Because of greed NC allowed a great game to get messed up so that cheaters prosper. They did this because they have no integrity. Their legit customers didn't matter. They lied many times over and this type of false representation should not go unrewarded.
I will never play another NC game.
$15.00 a month isn't much and i'm sure NC couldn't give a ***** but its the least i could do.
As far as merging servers goes what does it matter. Those that propered because they cheated with no repercussions are still at the top.
Good luck 420 everyone saw you bot, get banned and then allowed back in. NC in a nutshell. Sure merge servers that will make things right!
Since the beginning the ppl voted with their feet but the message didnt get across. That is why I try something different.
I might soon be banned because I made public someone's admission of cheating in my clan's forum, but who cares.
However, I love this game, and I think it is not all lost, we shouldnt wait till the last server closes and bots go home,I am doing my part in what they want us to do, give feedback.
Whether that is serious or not, we will see, but voting in this poll is the least we could do out of respect for the current team which from my perspective did more than the ppl before them.
M
You don't seem to understand. With each new server they were supposed to make it free of cheaters. They didn't manage to do it. How would they become suddenly efficient?
Also I'm not paying for them to ignore my server and only ban on a new server, that's outrageous to even suggest that. Are you so desperate that you accept that on current servers it's ok to cheat and want to force other players to accept it too?
The only solution is to detect all cheating programs efficiently, ban a few days first so those who are ready to stop cheating stay (and see the efficiency), and those who play L2 only because they can cheat get banned definitely if they try again. And that, on all the servers.
The key word is efficiency. If they can detect them easily and cheaters see that they won't be able to dodge the ban, those who just followed the cheating trend to compete in PvP have a chance to come back to the right path, and the others are better out.
I agree.. If they will make a new ban policy on a new server then they should apply to all servers. I think the idea of starting fresh, legitly, would be awesome! It would give old players a chance to start and stay caught up and develope new clans, allies, communites, etc. Its something id like to have done a long time ago! But with Freya coming out and talk of Lineage 3.. Might as well wait around and see what happens.
Look on High Five patch notes, they are making from L2 WoW i have liked this game before i have come to off and see this... now i am waiting for FF XIV :) there will be only Ebuy but no boters.
If you will see this topic censored, NC still live :D
Isn't the definition of insanity this: doing the same thing yet expecting different results?
That's why they need a new method of detection. That's what I'm saying. Opening yet another server with more of fail GMs, if you expect different results, well...
I know for a fact they wont ban all bots and wont keep banning them
Fact? What are your sources?
That's why they need a new method of detection. That's what I'm saying. Opening yet another server with more of fail GMs, if you expect different results, well...
Fact? What are your sources?
There are methods of detection, not technicalities are stoping GMs from doing their job.
My sources are logic. If i have 100 customers which buy internet from me, i know for a fact 60% are violating the tos by sharing it on more than one computer (i can detect that) but if i suspend the service to them they will pick another ISP. Of course, by sharing the internet access they are using more resources and the rest of the customers cannot fully benefit from what they pay but i wont cut 60% of the business to give satisfaction to the 40% which will pay the same price in the end.
Only if the 40% will agree to go to a higher plan that will cover the costs and use same resources that were used by 100% before i might consider that, even then reluctantly. I first need to see that the 40% that now pay more but really enjoy high speed internet will spread the word and I will end up with more customers than before, paying a higher price for a quality service.
This is capitalism, it works in general, ppl move to higher quality service if they afford it and it is available.
Right now higher quality service is not really available for us, except for the russians. We cant learn korean or russian just for this game and privates dont live long.
M
My sources are logic. If i have 100 customers which buy internet from me, i know for a fact 60% are violating the tos by sharing it on more than one computer (i can detect that) but if i suspend the service to them they will pick another ISP. Of course, by sharing the internet access they are using more resources and the rest of the customers cannot fully benefit from what they pay but i wont cut 60% of the business to give satisfaction to the 40% which will pay the same price in the end.
Only if the 40% will agree to go to a higher plan that will cover the costs and use same resources that were used by 100% before i might consider that, even then reluctantly. I first need to see that the 40% that now pay more but really enjoy high speed internet will spread the word and I will end up with more customers than before, paying a higher price for a quality service.
Sure, asking people that need less traffic to pay more for it... that's indeed logic :rolleyes:
Isn't the definition of insanity this: doing the same thing yet expecting different results?
idk is a fitting name... "I don't know"
Your motto must be "I saw it on the Internets so it's true!" Einstein was an physicist, not a psychiatrist.
__________________________________________________ ____________
–adjective
1.
not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.
2.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.
3.
utterly senseless: an insane plan.
–noun, plural -ties.
1.
the condition of being insane; a derangement of the mind.
2.
Law . such unsoundness of mind as affects legal responsibility or capacity.
3.
Psychiatry . (formerly) psychosis.
4.
extreme folly; senselessness; foolhardiness.
Main Entry: in·sane
Pronunciation: \(ËŒ)in-ˈsÄn\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin insanus, from in- + sanus sane
Date: circa 1550
1 : mentally disordered : exhibiting insanity
2 : used by, typical of, or intended for insane persons <an insane asylum>
3 : absurd <an insane scheme for making money>
4 : extreme 1
— in·sane·ly adverb
— in·sane·ness \-ˈsÄn-nÉ™s\ noun
Main Entry: in·san·i·ty
Pronunciation: \in-ˈsa-nə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural in·san·i·ties
Date: 1590
1 : a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)
2 : such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility
3 a : extreme folly or unreasonableness b : something utterly foolish or unreasonable
MaoMao is exhibiting NONE of these characteristics, only suggesting that certain behaviors by other players not ruin this game or ruin the enjoyment of the game by players that play within the rules.
There are methods of detection, not technicalities are stoping GMs from doing their job.
My sources are logic. If i have 100 customers which buy internet from me, i know for a fact 60% are violating the tos by sharing it on more than one computer (i can detect that) but if i suspend the service to them they will pick another ISP. Of course, by sharing the internet access they are using more resources and the rest of the customers cannot fully benefit from what they pay but i wont cut 60% of the business to give satisfaction to the 40% which will pay the same price in the end.
Only if the 40% will agree to go to a higher plan that will cover the costs and use same resources that were used by 100% before i might consider that, even then reluctantly. I first need to see that the 40% that now pay more but really enjoy high speed internet will spread the word and I will end up with more customers than before, paying a higher price for a quality service.
This is capitalism, it works in general, ppl move to higher quality service if they afford it and it is available.
Right now higher quality service is not really available for us, except for the russians. We cant learn korean or russian just for this game and privates dont live long.
M
Lieing to your 40% legit customers (that respected your rules) is not capitolism...it is defrauding them.
I could respect them if at some time they stated that botting was allowed. What did they do? Tell people how hard it was to tell if people bot, gave us a Bot Button, had cronies post that hundreds were banned.
In reality they did nothing except count their money.
Lieing to your 40% legit customers (that respected your rules) is not capitolism...it is defrauding them.
I could respect them if at some time they stated that botting was allowed. What did they do? Tell people how hard it was to tell if people bot, gave us a Bot Button, had cronies post that hundreds were banned.
In reality they did nothing except count their money.
Real integrity!
Yes, so ? You already left like hundreds of thousands before in all these years. Did that change anything ? I try to convince them to make a big change. I think that they dont have what to count anymore, so perhaps things will change a bit.
M
Yes, but they wont have packet loss and 4 k ping like before.
They will. If you oversell your bandwidth to them in the same way as you oversell your bandwidth to the rest of your customers - and, frankly, I see no reason to believe you that you wouldn't.
There are methods of detection, not technicalities are stoping GMs from doing their job.
My sources are logic. If i have 100 customers which buy internet from me, i know for a fact 60% are violating the tos by sharing it on more than one computer (i can detect that) but if i suspend the service to them they will pick another ISP. Of course, by sharing the internet access they are using more resources and the rest of the customers cannot fully benefit from what they pay but i wont cut 60% of the business to give satisfaction to the 40% which will pay the same price in the end.
Only if the 40% will agree to go to a higher plan that will cover the costs and use same resources that were used by 100% before i might consider that, even then reluctantly. I first need to see that the 40% that now pay more but really enjoy high speed internet will spread the word and I will end up with more customers than before, paying a higher price for a quality service.
This is capitalism, it works in general, ppl move to higher quality service if they afford it and it is available.
Right now higher quality service is not really available for us, except for the russians. We cant learn korean or russian just for this game and privates dont live long.
M
You're so logic that you forgot all the players that left because of cheaters are more numerous than the remaining cheaters. You forgot one of the most important thing in capitalism : the brand image. NCsoft has a lot to lose by letting cheaters free in their games when they officially give strict rules.
The more logical suggestion that can approach yours is to make a new server for cheaters with clear rules allowing cheating, and you can make them pay more to hire for other servers, while on the other server you apply the rules you have been engaged to enforce.
And as you mention Russian servers, they don't manage to ban cheaters because of the number of employees but because of their methods.
I say we make our own way of dealing with bots. Make a perma red clan and lvl some characters and go hunt down bots.. de-level them a grade or two..and let them suffer.. :rolleyes: give us reason to be active i suppose
Facts:
Last merger was bad, as soon as it happened numbers fell faster than before, now are still on the downside but we enjoyed many month of relative stability.
If the business model will not improve, this will happen again, for the reasons I explained elsewhere.
As such, I make this official proposition and I hope it will be at least considered by the team, before throwing the automated official answers.
In short I want a clean start for the ppl who wish to do it, also a great idea to bring back some old players to enjoy the romanticism of that unexplored new server, but, with a twist.
I want to have some special effort put into policing that new server, never let the bot infest it at such a degree that will be like the others.
How that will be done, remains to be seen, but I offer here some alternatives, feel free to add some more, lets have the community actually decide for something, lets try a new way because, at least for me, the old ways look like dead ends.
A new server and having it regulated properly would be good and I would not stand opposed to it. BUT, I have started new on both Franz & Luna and I'm not willing to go that route again - even if the new server is highly regulated/policed by GMs and another BUT is what revenue would it bring L2? If it could be afforded then more power to everyone that wants to start over.
Instead of a new server and instead of mass bans . . . I think a move in the direction of what I understand the Russian servers do with temp bans that move towards more serious punishments would be good and would curtail cheats.
I believe that wanting a server full of law abiding players is what this post is about. I believe the Russian servers have it going on!
You're so logic that you forgot all the players that left because of cheaters are more numerous than the remaining cheaters. You forgot one of the most important thing in capitalism : the brand image. NCsoft has a lot to lose by letting cheaters free in their games when they officially give strict rules.
The more logical suggestion that can approach yours is to make a new server for cheaters with clear rules allowing cheating, and you can make them pay more to hire for other servers, while on the other server you apply the rules you have been engaged to enforce.
And as you mention Russian servers, they don't manage to ban cheaters because of the number of employees but because of their methods.
That is one very good suggestion, however, all servers are for cheaters now and they decide merger politics and all.
Legits wont fill more than one server because as I said they dont play 24/7.
And it does not make sense from ncwest point of view, why bother to apply rules to a server where they would get less money (in case cheaters pay more).
But from this i see an interesting idea. Make cheaters pay a fine if they want their account reinstated. Strip them of all items, let them have only the stolen level or on the contrary, put them 5 levels down AND ask them to buy the accounts again by making the banned account trial with a special card which costs 5 times more.
This way there will be incentive to ban cheaters and extra GMs will pay themselves. The cheaters wont pay the chinese anymore will pay ncsoft. If they will be banned enough times they will eventually quit cheating or keep paying out GMs while also incurring penalties ingame.
Regarding the brand that gets tarnished, that happened long time ago, it cant be fixed anymore, but the community can get notice of the change in policy or business model and some ppl might return.
M
I say we make our own way of dealing with bots. Make a perma red clan and lvl some characters and go hunt down bots.. de-level them a grade or two..and let them suffer.. :rolleyes: give us reason to be active i suppose
Tried that when i was in kain/aria later. It never worked because of the enforcers, hero ppl killing us.
Sure, we could send back to town a lot of times the afk farmer trains but they were back pretty soon. Clan name was Police :)
M
A new server and having it regulated properly would be good and I would not stand opposed to it. BUT, I have started new on both Franz & Luna and I'm not willing to go that route again - even if the new server is highly regulated/policed by GMs and another BUT is what revenue would it bring L2? If it could be afforded then more power to everyone that wants to start over.
Instead of a new server and instead of mass bans . . . I think a move in the direction of what I understand the Russian servers do with temp bans that move towards more serious punishments would be good and would curtail cheats.
I believe that wanting a server full of law abiding players is what this post is about. I believe the Russian servers have it going on!
That will probably not work here many bots "turn legit" after level 85/80/80/80 and +30 skills. Instead of temp bans, better make fines ingame and monetary ones. Delevel them and revert account to trial till they pay the fine (activate it with a speacial cheater card).
M
i dont see why the OP keeps beating this issue to death. the poll results already show that barely anyone agrees with you.
i pay 14.99 a month, and dont want to pay more for an enhanced EULA that a new server would abide by when NCsoft doesnt care about the current EULA. ithe current EULA, mind you, that was never enforced in the first place.
the game is 6 years old, move on or deal with the way the game has evolved.
your first thread was moved to the appropriate section which is called The Bot Thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=204080&page=48). since you have a 1 tracked mind and keep spamming the forums with the same stuff, i am marking all of your threads as spam since you cant take the hint form your first thread.
i dont see why the OP keeps beating this issue to death. the poll results already show that barely anyone agrees with you.
i pay 14.99 a month, and dont want to pay more for an enhanced EULA that a new server would abide by when NCsoft doesnt care about the current EULA. ithe current EULA, mind you, that was never enforced in the first place.
the game is 6 years old, move on or deal with the way the game has evolved.
your first thread was moved to the appropriate section which is called The Bot Thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=204080&page=48). since you have a 1 tracked mind and keep spamming the forums with the same stuff, i am marking all of your threads as spam since you cant take the hint form your first thread.
ROFL ... Well I don't pay 14.99 for a EULA that isn't enforced either. But carry on young stallion....
i dont see why the OP keeps beating this issue to death. the poll results already show that barely anyone agrees with you.
45-46 I dont know how the total is counted but if I add up all the votes that are for some kind of a new server they are 45 while the ones of the ppl that dont think something can be changed (not necessarily that they dont want it) are 46 (ATM).
Go, mark this as spam, I dont want ppl that are resigned or dont care to read here. This thread is for the ppl that care for the game and want a better way to deal with cheating, not for those that dont care if theey play with cheaters or not. For you the current way is perfect and I understood that the first time. This is for the ppl that are looking for a solution acceptable for both parties, players and admins. Banning all bots is clearly not acceptable, you dont want that either, so we look for another solution, like separating us from them.
M
Banning all bots is an acceptable solution for me... if it could technically work on our servers. Separation is neither morally acceptable nor would ever technically work.
Banning all bots is an acceptable solution for me... if it could technically work on our servers. Separation is neither morally acceptable nor would ever technically work.
I was admin and GM in many online games including MMORPG. Technically it is possible, either by involving the community, through some software tricks, setting traps, different combinations of those, etc.
Only hardware keyboard and mouse emulators are difficult to prove except through to precise timings, but the rest is not difficult, can be even done automatically, like in the way chatban works, of course, a bit more complex than that, but same idea.
Best way is not to ban automatically, just raise a flag and then GM will check, OR, let players raise a flag and GM to check, or a combination of both, like GM check where both flags are raised to avoid losing time unnecesarily.
It can be done, pretty easily, in fact, we need a different business model here, not better technicians or GMs. If there is a will there are countless ways.
As I see it, the bot ban is going much better than before, I sense they understood the problem and lets help them find a solution acceptable for all the parties involved.
Please vote and dont lose hope. If you lose hope, why are you still here ?
M
I was admin and GM in many online games including MMORPG. Technically it is possible, either by involving the community, through some software tricks, setting traps, different combinations of those, etc.
Only hardware keyboard and mouse emulators are difficult to prove except through to precise timings, but the rest is not difficult, can be even done automatically, like in the way chatban works, of course, a bit more complex than that, but same idea.
Best way is not to ban automatically, just raise a flag and then GM will check, OR, let players raise a flag and GM to check, or a combination of both, like GM check where both flags are raised to avoid losing time unnecesarily.
It can be done, pretty easily, in fact, we need a different business model here, not better technicians or GMs. If there is a will there are countless ways.
As I see it, the bot ban is going much better than before, I sense they understood the problem and lets help them find a solution acceptable for all the parties involved.
Please vote and dont lose hope. If you lose hope, why are you still here ?
M
now you want segregation in an online video game, racist much?
now you want segregation in an online video game, racist much?
Indeed :) I think you already said you have no problem playing with bots, you know nobody cares for this poll, everything is fine there, you voted as such, so why are you still here ? I think your clannies are awaiting you to pwn some more legits.
M
I was admin and GM in many online games including MMORPG. Technically it is possible, either by involving the community, through some software tricks, setting traps, different combinations of those, etc.
Detection is possible (but may trigger a lot of false positives at the beginning, especially with GMs as "knowledgeable" in the game as the NC West staff is). Separation is not, because your customers won't trust you, judging by your past performance.
how about instead of hiring a new GM, just advertise for a change(even though it might be a little late). the only reason games like wow, even Aion and other have done better than us is advertising, this is probably the best pvp game I have ever played. Yes other games have cool skills and this and that, but none compare to L2 on pvp, seiges, clan/ally set up. WoW is a carebear cartoon, Aion is very close to wow, guild wars was just fail, on and on. But, l2 got it right on game content(true some of the events were dumb and sucked) but the game as a whole is awsome. But when I have looked at GamePro or any other gamer magazine in the past 5 years I have only seen its name 1x, and that was in a mass review of the Top MMO's and was mainly about RMT markets and the effects on games.
how about instead of hiring a new GM, just advertise for a change(even though it might be a little late). the only reason games like wow, even Aion and other have done better than us is advertising, this is probably the best pvp game I have ever played. Yes other games have cool skills and this and that, but none compare to L2 on pvp, seiges, clan/ally set up. WoW is a carebear cartoon, Aion is very close to wow, guild wars was just fail, on and on. But, l2 got it right on game content(true some of the events were dumb and sucked) but the game as a whole is awsome. But when I have looked at GamePro or any other gamer magazine in the past 5 years I have only seen its name 1x, and that was in a mass review of the Top MMO's and was mainly about RMT markets and the effects on games.
aion was also completely bot infested during its beta stage. and i wonder why? maybe because the same company that created lineage 2 called ncsoft doesnt care enough to prevent these things in their games?
Aion started out bad for bots which also killed it but now they have cleaned it up. I was back in for about a few weeks about a month ago and it is fine now. Didn't see any bots and very few spammers.
How did they do it?
They set up a team of jackboot GMs called the games surveillance team or something like that. They ban botters regardless if they are kinah farmer/sellers or just cheating wannabe hardcore players. Pretty impressive really. What they have there, we need here. Because this game might be older but it is much more fun and interesting, from my perspective as a new guy.
Should we pay more for a server that is policed?
No, all or nothing and nothing is not an option either. Now, if we need to pay more a month for it to make business sense here in NA? Then I would rather pay more than have botters. But there shouldn't be two games. The only problem with raising the prices is driving off the playerbase which this this game can't afford to do in NA.
Ultimately it isn't about simply raising the money to hire X number of GMs to get the job done. It comes down to what kind of profit margin NCSoft is willing to make. In the end, hiring the staff necessary to make the game bot unfriendly is going to lower the overall ROI. They need to be willing to trade some ROI for improved brand recognition. My guess is that, looking forward, they are already moving on from L2 in planing terms.
Someone mentioned needing to test the economics of this by doing it with one server. Good point but I think you are looking at this too much from a single game point of view. NCSoft both can, and needs to look at if from perspective of the several games that they offer. Also, it would take a year or more to collect sufficient data to chart this. My guess, is that Aion was and is this very test. They sunk a lot of effort and playerbase publicity into banhammering the bots. I think this will be their model moving forward. Too late for L2. But if they had a game like L2 that say used the Aion engine and art but had the huge world, mechanics, features and feel of L2... hmmmmm L3?
There is your all new server with all new, starting from scratch, fair playing field, no (few?) bot server.
NCsoft knows that they will never be able to get people to start over again from the beginning on a 6 year old game without a carrot the size of a Toyota Prius. Only a whole new, completely improved game would come close to that and even then many players would stay in L2 because of the time and effort they have invested in there characters here. But at least enough would be willing to switch to form a viral marketing playerbase. Then stack on top of that a good reason to invest in some marketing to bring in new players and off you go.
At least that is what I would do if I had to make the decisions. Also keep in mind that they have the inside information and are probably 2 years ahead of us on all this reasoning. We are just watching the pieces fall into place now.
MaoMao is exhibiting NONE of these characteristics, only suggesting that certain behaviors by other players not ruin this game or ruin the enjoyment of the game by players that play within the rules.
The quote claims that anyone who repeats the same action and expects different results is insane.
In this situation, idk is suggesting that MaoMao is insane for expecting any server to be bot free when everything else remains constant. And with NCSoft's track record in hand, the phrase is quite applicable in this situation.
idk's statement makes complete sense. Perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension before quoting a dictionary.
I dont think that refers to me. It refers to ppl that think NC will just ban the bots because EULA says so.
I think there must be a change someplace and I am offering a few ideas FOR THAT CHANGE (i.e. not doing everyting the same).
-more money so the bots wont make sense even in the short term like thy do now (well, we wont ban tillt he quarter results are in place so the numboers wont drop that badly);
-new business model (ok, the game is old, no longer tripple A, so maybe russian model OR a proven model, korean one)
-and there is ONE option that will start a new server in same botted conditions for ppl that are just coming or absorbing from privates some that decided partly to upgrade and need just a little incentive.
Since only ONE of 5 proposed answers that ask for some action (6th is non-answer from that point of view) offers same conditions (ok, maybe number 2 also, so lets say 2 out of 5 at max) hint to the perpetuation of the failed luna experiment, not to mention that i didnt say I expect different results in case those answers are picked, I am sure it is not about me that "definition".
Maybe it is about ppl that pick number 2, number 5 or 6, those that like the status-quo, like to pwn legits after they botter their *** off or together with their automated friends.
M
I dont think that refers to me. It refers to ppl that think NC will just ban the bots because EULA says so.
I think there must be a change someplace and I am offering a few ideas FOR THAT CHANGE (i.e. not doing everyting the same).
-more money so the bots wont make sense even in the short term like thy do now (well, we wont ban tillt he quarter results are in place so the numboers wont drop that badly);
-new business model (ok, the game is old, no longer tripple A, so maybe russian model OR a proven model, korean one)
-and there is ONE option that will start a new server in same botted conditions for ppl that are just coming or absorbing from privates some that decided partly to upgrade and need just a little incentive.
Since only ONE of 5 proposed answers that ask for some action (6th is non-answer from that point of view) offers same conditions (ok, maybe number 2 also, so lets say 2 out of 5 at max) hint to the perpetuation of the failed luna experiment, not to mention that i didnt say I expect different results in case those answers are picked, I am sure it is not about me that "definition".
Maybe it is about ppl that pick number 2, number 5 or 6, those that like the status-quo, like to pwn legits after they botter their *** off or together with their automated friends.
M
But the fact is we do pay so many years this game and we should have all this time All koreans are having.
Problem was we didnt knew that L2 wasnt what NA servers gave us,we didnt know that we are missing content/events and active gms.But they did know.They had to know that either boting/ebaying should go on for ever,or without those,staying only with x1 drop/xp rate,servers would collapse due to dead markets.Our biggest problem now on servers arent the bots,are the 0 things a legit player can do to make adena for the needs of a s85 toon and the lack of enough 83+ geared players to work on the Freya inviroment.
Your suggestion for a new clean server is nice,but how many legit players will drop their high hardmade toons and start again on a x1 or x2 server?I wont.I would go mad if i had to do all that again.Only casuel lower lvl players would do it.
My suggestion is to improve our current servers by giving us the korean content which will allow legit players to earn as much adena in game as they need by playing.For population increase,only with freetoplay,premium account to pay,we can grab people back.Yet,lag maybe be the big issue,if their servers cant handle more than 2k players.Servers lag all the time with 1k players online,will they update their machines so game runs smooth with 4-5k players?
The number of people who play on such a server won't pay for it.
It's not hard to level in L2. All you need is a group of 4-5 friends and you can get from 1 to 83 in like 3 months if you all roll the right classes.
With ^5 XP levels, it would be even faster in optimized XP groups.
The main block to even getting on board with this is simply the fact that it will be another Luna, just a more or less legit Luna.
Luna is basically dead because of transfers and bannings. That's what this "legit server" will look like in ~1 year... 600 players online at peak times... Less if the GMs are very aggressive.
Luna was made because eu servers were full. There was a need for another EU server, they did not make it to keep bots out. I think that if it will be a legit server, it will be filled fast.
It will be joined by ppl that currently play on privates, not because of money, but because of bots. I know many.
It will be joined by the ppl that are legit in the other servers and dont like bots. I know many. On the contrary what has been said in this thread, there are ppl that dont like to play with the bots. And even those resigned now, that tried to play legit but felt they have to cheat too to "level the field" will feel like they have a chance.
Of course, the problem is lack of credibility. This has been raised over and over again, and 80% of the ppl dont believe NCwest will ever change their ways.
I believe it can happen because they are going bankrupt with this system.
There are more and more games out there, true, maybe not this good, but many ppl prefer to play a fair game even if not that good, than put up with griefers and be denied top content either because they are not koreans for part of that content or because they are observing the EULA.
Besides, lately there have been bans. I see fewer and fewer bots making it to level 80, not to mention 85. There are, still, those that "turned legit", but i dont think it is feasible to think you will make it back to 85 after being banned using same methods.
That in itself speaks volumes. I think there is the will there to ban bots, problem is for some ppl that the "legit bots" now block content for the "legit legits".
That will in time go away as the bots are fewer and fewer and as i said even some castles are escaping their control.
I say a new server is needed for another reason. We need to increase the player base. We can hope some ppl will return if they hear the bots are no longer controlling everything, but there are many-many players that want to start in official, and if we have a good campaign they will start in a new server if they believe the bots are heading for the exit.
Perhaps it is too early still, this poll shows old players that have seen the banhammer hitting hard lately still dont believe this change is taking place, it will be very hard for some who already quit because of them to believe NCwest is indeed changed their ways.
We cant have korean style content, we cant have decent updates if we dont have enough players to pay. We need to do all we can to increase the player base. If you laready lost hope, why are you still here ?
If you are here, then be constructive, that attitude wont help the game and yourself. What will you gain if the plug is being pulled ? Russians can go to russian servers, I understand them, but the rest ?
M
It will be joined by ppl that currently play on privates, not because of money, but because of bots. I know many.
It will be joined by the ppl that are legit in the other servers and dont like bots. I know many. We need to do all we can to increase the player base. If you laready lost hope, why are you still here ?
If you are here, then be constructive, that attitude wont help the game and yourself. What will you gain if the plug is being pulled ? Russians can go to russian servers, I understand them, but the rest ?
M
As i said i feel also that unless some big change,our servers will keep dying but..
Most of the players(if not all) who were officiel and got disapointed/went private/private closed went to other priv lvling toons ect,cant keep hiting mobs and doing quests any more again from the scratch!These people are ''burned'',they no longer find any fun at all on grinding and lvling the same classes over and over,for so many years, only to see their efforts varnish from a corrupted gm or from whatever other reason.
Most of the players who are now playing in a server they arent happy about it,also cant do a new start,they even dont want to make a transfer using the same toons.I've discussed with lots of legits players before i transfer and their answer was,they cant start all over again,have to make mats and craft again all their subs gear,make new alts,new buffers,find new clan and friends.Because they were legits,all these took them many years to accomplish them.Some times a ++++++weapon that was someone's dream and after years of trying he managed to buy is enough reason to keep loging and he doesnt want to miss that.
So i still believe,that a new server bot-free would be a very good thing along with korean content(without that content game can never fuction without bot/ebay)if it was made 3-4 years ago,when people still had the will to start all over in an old game.Not anymore.
Now Ncwest has to figure out how they will offer us more events who will give us adena also,if legit player can make same gear and lvl a bot has,boting would be elliminated.
All you need is a group of 4-5 friends and you can get from 1 to 83 in like 3 months if you all roll the right classes. With ^5 XP levels, it would be even faster in optimized XP groups.
4-5 friends... Of these 4-5 friends, you MUST mean others such as yourself who are most likely playing the game in the same game mentality as yourself. A bot/box party is made of 4-5 alone! So obviously you mean 4-5 other players such as yourself with + 4-5 oop support classes in tow. WTF goes through your head when you deem all others wrong and believe you are "right"?
Perfect parties for you must rain from the sky on a daily/hourly/MinuteByMinute/24/7 basis in order for you to state such a comment!! Who TF starts out with a group of 4-5 friends to begin with in ANY way unless they have an intricate knowledge of how to exploit the game's nuances and have control of each of these "4-5" players AND also know the correct mix of classes?! yet alone to have the "Magic" to do it without OOP support classes.
Seriously, just UFTS. Anyone could choose to pay as much as you do to play the game. That does not mean that your method of playing the game is Gospel! Is there some quest in the starter towns that would help ANY new players to get this PERFECT tag team of 4-5 and launch them into the stratosphere from the lowly level 1 up to the barely acceptable level 83 within your 3 month timespan!? PLEASE!!! Tell us how you do it?!?!
Or is it too self incriminating?
Your accounts should be investigated for such a comment. Players such as yourself are a Cancerous disease.
If you are crazy enough you can make it 1-61 in a couple of days. 61-75 a week more or less. It can be done, no sleep eat at computer, supposedly you have all the gear already from the clan, etc.
Those ppl can make it in 3 months to 83, they can even have some sleep. If you are live and not afk you can level way faster than the bots. It is a lot of work but can be done even in a shorter time. Playing 3 hours a day, nope, it cant be done in 3 months but 6 is feasible, if you catch a vita event or something.
L2 is not that hard anymore, that worries me, bots pushed up the idea that it is too hard so the developpers made it easier. They didnt see that AION has bots too, heck WoW has bots so, for a cheater it is always too hard to play legit. I dont like it that the game becomes easier. This is not how it was supposed to be, bots ruined this aspect too.
M
If you are crazy enough you can make it 1-61 in a couple of days. 61-75 a week more or less. It can be done, no sleep eat at computer, supposedly you have all the gear already from the clan, etc.
Those ppl can make it in 3 months to 83, they can even have some sleep. If you are live and not afk you can level way faster than the bots. It is a lot of work but can be done even in a shorter time. Playing 3 hours a day, nope, it cant be done in 3 months but 6 is feasible, if you catch a vita event or something.
L2 is not that hard anymore, that worries me, bots pushed up the idea that it is too hard so the developpers made it easier. They didnt see that AION has bots too, heck WoW has bots so, for a cheater it is always too hard to play legit. I dont like it that the game becomes easier. This is not how it was supposed to be, bots ruined this aspect too.
M
LVL80 in 1 month if no eat/no sleep/oop buffers leech from poler sure.
Not a regular player.
As for game getting easier it should get!Who ever starts a new game wants to see that he can reach the end content someday,since end content has moved to s85,new players have to make it untill 78 at on a smooth way,then things get serious if they will try for s-s80 gear without any help from friends.
As for s85 players, no more lvling with the current sytem pls,the demands for subs 80lvl,+30 skills and vesper gear is so big,if they are legit all their effort would go on making money.