Ripping out v3.elliebelly.net, at least mention the source ..

Reading http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=212704 I was shocked to discover that another website of non-official source has replicated an original experiment making no mention of the source.

Apart from not mentioning that it's a copy / paste from elliebelly, the personal style the original post was written (i know, i wrote it) further amplifies the impression that it's original work coming straight out the new one.

I would not have any problem with it if it was only me but as I found out by just looking at the main / index / front web page, there is tons of original EB work replicated there without mentioning anything.

Maybe it would not matter anyway if it was just a bunch of screenshots with 5-10 lines of text about some old / stupid quests, but in that case we are talking about full guides, walkthroughs, very well thought of, full of usefull, original and up to date information contributed by ppl that spend days of their lives just to make one post / guide / walktrough with tons of text explaining / discussing / giving additional info.

Though even I did not 100% agree with taking down EB so fast without any1 having time at least to get some info just for his personal use, that was Elmar's and Ellie's decision and I respect it.

I would not bother see some of the info mirrored, though there are some valid / serious points about how dangerous would be to stay there statically and unmaintained.

But I am really disgusted to see the effort and the countless hours contributed by Elmar, Ellie, Diego and lots of others in community beeing masked behind a "Last Guide" at the cetral section the front page of the new site without any mention to anyone :(

I don't want to believe that it was intentional though the whole "presentaion" further implies that all these are original work of the new site

Please respect the countless hours that so many ppl devoted in studying and write posts / guide to help the community and don't present all that info like it's yours. At least mention that the info was taken out from http://v3.elliebelly.net/

The reference would be honorable to do, but it's still kind of irritating that she was unwilling to let someone else pick up the content and continue things. There are like a zillion links to it now that don't work.

I can understand getting tired of all the work, but there was a community there, and as long as NCSoft's official documentation is so obsolete and incomplete, we the player community absolutely rely on sites like EllieBelly and Rochand for good information.

There are still no English replacements for L2WH, and I do think the game has suffered for its discontinuation, particularly now with the server merge.

NCSoft would get high props for implementing their own official L2WH type site. I'm sure they could easily find volunteers for it too - so it's not a cost issue.

Yeah it sucks for the community, but I have a feeling no one in the community was offering to pick up the tab for keeping the site alive.

It's nice when players take their time and money to make something that helps us. Something NC themselves should be doing. When the people running these sites quit the game, you can only assume they either sell/give the site to someone that wants to pay the bills or it goes away. The fact that zillions of sites are linked to their site is only another reason why they should close it. Nothing worse then paying for leechers.

Yeah it sucks for the community, but I have a feeling no one in the community was offering to pick up the tab for keeping the site alive.

It's nice when players take their time and money to make something that helps us. Something NC themselves should be doing. When the people running these sites quit the game, you can only assume they either sell/give the site to someone that wants to pay the bills or it goes away. The fact that zillions of sites are linked to their site is only another reason why they should close it. Nothing worse then paying for leechers.

It wasn't about money because there were definitely people that would have kicked in to keep it up. It was about their work load and time.

The reference would be honorable to do, but it's still kind of irritating that she was unwilling to let someone else pick up the content and continue things. There are like a zillion links to it now that don't work.

Agreed

While the author has the right to be mentioned, once it is out there for free it becomes public domain. I dont need aproval of Gaudi to post a picture I made with one of those works... If someone saved some content before going down, GJ, thank you for mentioning the source so many ppl will know where to go !
Elliebelly was good, but now that is dead, it is dead, finished, over, L2 goes ahead (tho I dont know for how long under NCNA administration). There were contributions from other ppl that were not consulted when the site was taken offline.
That being said, a mention of the source was needed. But after a while, another site will copy the copy, etc. If ppl feel that is too much work to do they should not start it in the first place.
M

While the author has the right to be mentioned, once it is out there for free it becomes public domain.

What are you on ? ;)

It's not because it's "on the Internet" that it's public domain, of course not !

I don't know if EllieBelly did put a copyright mention at the end of her homepage or something, but even if she didn't she'd still has to explicitely say that her content was free to use and/or modify for others to be able to take it like that !

I had some websites shut down for the exact same reasons a few years back, because they took some of the stuff i wrote and made it look like they did the job (wasn't about Lineage II though).

No offense to elliebelly or anyone else, and i agree that a reference should be mentioned, but the information was open to the public and was discussing information which was copywritten by ncsoft. Elliebelly didnt have anymore right to the organized information than anyone else did, because the information is NCsoft's information.

I'm not saying its right, but no one is required to give credit to that site when using info off it.


as a side note:

I heard a rumor at how much she wanted for the domain and everything attached and I have to say it was a little rediculous.

But it's her site and thats a different discussion all together. It's really too bad she didnt move it on to rochand or someone else to maintain it for the community.

What are you on ? ;)

It's not because it's "on the Internet" that it's public domain, of course not !

I don't know if EllieBelly did put a copyright mention at the end of her homepage or something, but even if she didn't she'd still has to explicitely say that her content was free to use and/or modify for others to be able to take it like that !

I had some websites shut down for the exact same reasons a few years back, because they took some of the stuff i wrote and made it look like they did the job (wasn't about Lineage II though).

EllieBelly was an internet forum where people discussed content that is owned (copyrights included) by NCSoft. Even if there was a copyright notice (by Elliebelly) it wouldn't be worth the paper it is written on. What you are suggesting is that if say you went there and posted EllieBelly would automatically own copyrights to your thoughts. Doesn't work that way. Besides 99% of the juicy content was translations of other sites, not original content EllieBelly created.

@OP If you put info in the public domain it may get plagiarized. Sucks but ... that's life. I don't mean do be a jerk but .. it's a game, who gives a **** who reproduces a test about mechanics in some korean MMO. They should have given you a mention, they didn't, they have no manners. Sucks but ... you 'll live



PS it's ripping off not ripping out

EllieBelly was an internet forum

Oh ok my bad, i thought it was a website with original content in it, not a forum !

Is there a point to link to a dead site with a counter on it?

Elliebelly closed shop and left.

Therefore she is no longer entitled to get any reference. SUE ME.

She didn't care about us to even share the knowledge and have others keep her project going therefore I sure as hell don't care about her and her intellectual property.

This is the way its going to be.
Don't use the guides if you are so against us using it.

GOODBYE.
CASE CLOSED.

. At least mention that the info was taken out from http://v3.elliebelly.net/

Who actually cares? Elliebelly quit, the site is gone, that makes it fair game imho, get over it.


edit: saw the post above from Thundera!

At least mention that the info was taken out from http://v3.elliebelly.net/
Your link doesn't work :rolleyes:

Your link doesn't work :rolleyes:

Gee, what a surprise ! :P

M
P.S. Me nad hyperlite agreeing on something :o That is really a surprise, wonder if the end of the world is coming... Perhaps one day he will agree bots didnt manage to save L2 and NCNA... :D

I have to agree with the "Who Cares" group on this one. Ellie left, she is gone, please move on.

Elliebelly closed shop and left.

Therefore she is no longer entitled to get any reference. SUE ME.

She didn't care about us to even share the knowledge and have others keep her project going therefore I sure as hell don't care about her and her intellectual property.

This is the way its going to be.
Don't use the guides if you are so against us using it.

GOODBYE.
CASE CLOSED.

My friend, you miss the point completely. It has nothing to do elliebelly.net or shutting down a site or intellectual property or suing someone. I an not a lawyer nor a defendant of elliebelly ... Plagiarism is a bad thing regardless of L2 or vanished "original" material or copyrights. Plagiarism is presenting someone else s original work, (some hours / days of trying to create something new, something that did not exist in that form) as yours.

All posts had an author, the last line of each post ... At the time of mirroring, author was also included in the mirrored copy. While none bothered to alter / complete / extend / discuss anything out of the copied data, SOMEONE just edited the files, REMOVING ONLY the last line mentioning AUTHOR before making them available online again.

My point is not about a site that turned lights off, I won't get into that discussion about elliebelly.net, that happened long time ago in another thread. I am not concerned anymore ... My point is about a site that while software MIRRORING the content KEPT EVERYTHING intact, a human REMOVED ONLY ALL the references to sources / authors that existed in the mirrored content at first place. That can't happen by accident, someone did it on purpose. Thing is why someone would do something that ?

I say it's a bad thing that SOMEONE not only "forgot" to mention source but ACTUALLY MADE AN EFFORT TO REMOVE ONLY AUTHORS & SOURCES ... You say it's OK ? Just because a random web site no longer exists, you can strip out sources / authors / credits ? So you say that anyone without a web site can't / won't get any credit ? He will just have his name removed ? Or that all references / sources can be removed if they can't point to a valid www location ? And someone else will present everything as his own because he has a web site atm ? Where have you saw that ?

Someone makes an effort of some hours / days / weeks creating something new, something original, a website, a project, a paper for submission in a journal / conference, whatever. Then someone else copies it and makes an effort to remove all existing info regarding only the sources and the author, so he can present it all like it's his own work. Nothing wrong about that ? I guess you would not have any problem if someone copied all your work and removed all references to you ? Have you ever actually created something "original" ? I guess not because if you ever had you would be at least annoyed with plagiarism.

BTW, are you the webmaster of the offending site ? Or just a defendant ? Cuz if you are the webmaster / owner, beware of what you publicly say ... It would be very funny to have your whole site mirrored somewhere else with all references stripped out and see you coming back here to complain about it :)

Apart from not respecting players voluntary work trying to help other players (which is my main point), you went even further stating that I sure as hell don't care about her and her intellectual property
and the reasoning is that She didn't care about us to even share the knowledge

I don't want to get into any discussion about IP but in you reasoning I see a childish logic. How old are you ? Because only children seem to think that as long as they disagree with something / feel insulted / feel their reasoning is correct, they can do whatever seems fit. In your "logic", you seem to state that when you believe you are offended, (in that case by someone not sharing knowledge) you can do whatever you want, (in that case ignoring sources / authors). Do I miss something here ? Because I am not 5 yrs old and I happen to co-exist in an organized society with rules not in a jungle ...

In your reasoning, I could just go and rip http://www.whateversite.com (http://l2.naturalbornkillers.it/index.php?action=show;type=guide;id=258) stripping out references sources and author, making it all seem mine just because ................................................ <--- (put whatever reasoning here)

As long as I feel I am offended I have the right ? Are you kidding me dude ?

Apart from that (according to some other posters suggestions and ideas) all are NCSOFT so nothing "new" discovered or no "original" work can be done, we can freely copy whatever we want as long as we have a disclaimer stating the sole copyright owner (NCSOFT) and have approval from the sole copyright owner (NCSOFT) ? Correct ? So I don't even need a twisted "logic" or "reasoning" to mirror a web site stripping out authors and "forgetting" to mention source since all are NC copyright ? Correct ? My friend, it seems that you either don't understand or don't want to understand how it is to try very hard for many days to produce something "new", organized, well structured, with arguments, with correct information, with robust reasoning, keeping it maintained and up to date and then ...

Someone else presents it like its his own work .. You say that it's OK as long as there is a (twisted imo) reasoning ..

Beware of what you wish for and plz spare me the BS about the defendant of an insulted community ... IMHO someone just ripped everything he could and removed all sources / references / authors on purpose, just for the glory of having on his site the best written / accurate / up to date information / guides / walk troughs.. OFC, that can't be done while keeping references / sources /authors .. Still lots of ppl that have no idea how come a bunch of fine guides came out of nowhere and believe that this "fine" site made them .. No prestige or glory if there is a reference to source / author and that would be the only reason ripping apart EXISTING info about authors.

GZ with presenting all like original http://l2.naturalbornkillers.it (http://l2.naturalbornkillers.it/index.php?action=show;type=guide;id=258) guides ... GL with the BS that stripping references / sources / authors was for the good of the L2 community and not for your own interest. .. Let's see what you ll do with guides that already have inaccurate info / conclusions because you did not bother to check later posts and fix them (you had time only to remove authors) .. Let's see what you ll do for the community when ppl start figuring out that they just lost some days of their lives or adena following a guide just because their "savior" did not not have any intention to update the guide or to state it's un-maintaned or to state that knew nothing at first place, that its just copied and static material ...

Just saw http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?p=3035573#post3035573 .. Posted at December 6 of 2010, yup, thats some days ago by Thundera .. Started a thread with title "Dimensional Merchants"
what do these NPCs do ? whenever or at what level I speak to them, they say come back later ... whats their point in the game , they are in every town yet don't sell or buy anything ...
Also of great interest would be another one see http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=202069 and http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?p=2889595#post2889595 posted at December 5 of 2010 ..
Hello, I am a lv 44 WS and I just got a baby pet to level which is lv 24 ...

The pet is leveling super slow compared to my WS, and compared to my wolf which I leveled well into 60s, are baby pets just like that ? or is it due to the 20 levels, level diffrence ? I figured since pets take set exact % of exp away level diffrence shouldn't matter. Thanks for your time.

I am too lazy to search , when i can just ask and few nice people will answer me before someone says 'do a search' ... so thanks everyone :P.

Ooo, sorry, forgot to remind that Thundera is the author of that also

Elliebelly closed shop and left.

Therefore she is no longer entitled to get any reference. SUE ME.

She didn't care about us to even share the knowledge and have others keep her project going therefore I sure as hell don't care about her and her intellectual property.

This is the way its going to be.
Don't use the guides if you are so against us using it.

GOODBYE.
CASE CLOSED.

To JohnDoe,

Your last post does nothing but insult Thundera and should be removed.

Don't tell us you are not a defender of Elliebelly, when you are the OP of this thread. You seem to be the only one that is crying here.

Yes, my post is insulting you, but not near to the extent of your insults to Thundera.

Personally, talking about another forum site here on the L2 official forums, should be outlawed. But that is just my opinion. If it were up to me, I would delete this entire thread.

all the info on elliebelly came from the game of lineageII.
is it really that big of a deal? people jus typed up some info that they sourced by playing the game. nobody did any stealing since it was all available information.
sure its easier to go to a site to find the info, or if your like me and realized long ago you cant depend on others to do the work just keep a spreadsheet and/or notes.

btw if you want credit for somthing never post it on the interwebs. you wouldnt print and sell a million copys of your book w/o copyrights would ya? when you put somthin on the web it can intantly be viewed and stolen by millions to be passed off as thier own.

Plagiarism is not the same as copyright infringement. While both terms may apply to a particular act, they are different concepts. Copyright infringement is a violation of the rights of a copyright holder, when material protected by copyright is used without consent.

On the other hand, the moral concept of plagiarism is concerned with the unearned increment to the plagiarizing author's reputation that is achieved through false claims of authorship.

Mentioning a soucre would be pointless.

Where would you link to?

Can't plagiarize something that does not exist.

Can't plagiarize something that does not exist.

to be honest it was a good source.. but yea.. a copy/paste forum from others work and then claim it was her own.. just shows in the end what kind of fansite it really was.

I'm not sure someone pulling the plug of such an important information source without giving the opportunity to the community who created the content to gather their belonging and re-open the community hub elsewhere deserves some credit.
I know Elliebelly raged a lot when Startics messed up her stuff. Did she do better? No. She's become what she hated. You can't have credit for what you've built if you destroy it when you leave.

Plagiarism is not the same as copyright infringement. While both terms may apply to a particular act, they are different concepts. Copyright infringement is a violation of the rights of a copyright holder, when material protected by copyright is used without consent.

On the other hand, the moral concept of plagiarism is concerned with the unearned increment to the plagiarizing author's reputation that is achieved through false claims of authorship.

ty for that.
now tell us the definition of analogy.... :D

ty for that.
now tell us the definition of analogy.... :D

Analogy - is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process.

I'm not sure someone pulling the plug of such an important information source without giving the opportunity to the community who created the content to gather their belonging and re-open the community hub elsewhere deserves some credit.
I know Elliebelly raged a lot when Startics messed up her stuff. Did she do better? No. She's become what she hated. You can't have credit for what you've built if you destroy it when you leave.

WIN!!!, thread over...

/that I why I never trust anything that bleeds for 4 days and does not die.