As I know there's no way to do that other then kill without shots or pots.
It is not that painful do a decent amount of adena in game by selling materials (spoil/manor) and such over large periods of time or profit off a lucky event item... but I'm not talking about that..
I see no reliable way of adena entering the market to be recirculated, at least not from your average shot/pot-using players. People don't kill without shots and to some extent use at the very least heal pots pre-75 (at least since freya?). I used to kill without shots many years ago because I never liked to play with the game's economy or such and quickly gave up and started some manoring and in the end it's only the events that got me out of the gutter by selling event items or rewards for insane prices (got over 100mil for an EWS many years ago ? ouch..).
I feel the initial design of the game and persisting to this day is to kill without shots for the most part, if you want to bring fresh adena on the market along side repeatable quests with meager rewards, otherwise you'll just recirculate while adena is overall drained from the market..
Now, putting aside bots, considering they wouldn't exist... wouldn't some players have to really kill without shots for a very long time and continuously to compensate for the adena sinks of the overall player base ? (teleports, shot materials, pots etc)
How is the adena being circulated being refreshed actually outside of the existing bots ?
As I see it, most if not all legit players nowadays only recirculate and drain adena, they bring no adena to the adena flow.
Hmm, more of a rant then a question. It's just that I've always been baffled by the lack of a steady and fun way of getting adena into the market in any significant way. Especially considering the usually extremely bloated market that made those efforts meaningless (less bloated nowadays but still...).
On my duelist (78) I can grind with shots in SV, in a duo, and after my shots I come out with about half a million adena every day. (playing for 1-2 hours).
That's a pretty steady adena flow.
The reason this problem exists is because the game puts too much emphasis on leveling, rather than making money. To your typical player (who in this game is more hardcore than casual) it's a better investment to spend more adena to make more experience. This can be shown by the number of players willing to spend hundreds of millions of adena to buy the christmas gfit boxes for VIT. They often don't pick up adena because it's an eighth of a second they aren't spending killing a mob. That's just how it pans out for them.
I could write you a thousand pages of speculations as to why this is the case, but the most direct cause is that no one plays the game solo any more. Whether by unbalanced buff classes, or too much emphasis on the wrong areas of gameplay, the game has effectively ruled out party play for anything but the most late-game content.
It's simply more effective to solo at low levels, and have an OOP buffpet.
because 90% of the player base does this, the game has shifted in balance to factor that as the standard for gameplay. If you have a 78 buffer behing you with prophecy, you are doing the expected amount of damage for your level 40 class. If you do not, you are fighting against the current and will spend more money on shots-pots to compensate.
NC needs to realize that there are two types of players; Hardcore (will cheat, bot, buy adena, do whatever it takes to win type) and Casual (generally more legit, plays fewers hours/day and does not have top clan, access to 3 OOP buffers and a BD at all times).
NC should just cater to the casual player and set them as the standard. Yes, this means the hardcore players will level faster and race to end game. If those players want to race ahead and be level 84 and pvp with one another, that's great, more power to them, but that should never cost the more casual players the chance to enjoy the game.
On the side, I assume you're using S grade duals right ? And you touch pots once in a while ? Or none ?
And with all your consumables you more then break even and make a "profit" sort of speak ?
Half a million adena, how much are SSS nowadays ? I find it surprising you manage to not only break even but be in the green, I have no experience with end-game adena drop / costs.
On Chronos SSS is selling near the 100 per shot now. Sometimes it is as high as 120, but usually floating somewhere just above 100.
If you want a fun easy way to make adena, no matter what level your toon, head to the catas. The price of AA is slowly starting to fall, but was sitting at 9:1 for quite a while. I think its around 8:1 now. Either way with the cost of shots you should come out ahead, and the XP is fairly decent as well.
On the side, I assume you're using S grade duals right ? And you touch pots once in a while ? Or none ?
And with all your consumables you more then break even and make a "profit" sort of speak ?
Half a million adena, how much are SSS nowadays ? I find it surprising you manage to not only break even but be in the green, I have no experience with end-game adena drop / costs.
I have a prophet behind me at all times, so I never use pots. I don't have a persistant source of VR, but the herbs drop it enough.
I pay an average of 110-120 per SSS on Naia.
More over, my duals under average power for my class/level. They are +4 Tall*DLE with only 30 holy....
This is only a small part of the iceberg that is awaiting us and only a few managed to see the hidden part of it.
I mean... WTF NC, A grade in shops, and NO other source of adena to compensate the drain ? The adena is already going out of the market at an increasing pace, now we have High Five update coming and ppl can buy A grade items in shops.
What will happen with those ? They will be OE and made crystals, more items will be bought in shop, etc. The prices of enchants will increase or stay the same (A grade ones) but all prices will fall and more and more ppl will shout WTT...
Now we can also buy AA with adena, MORE adena sink... Also, I presume 1-2 adena traders have been banned while having loads of cash with them... More adena sink... The CHs were awarded against a lots of adena, prices are falling for years, sometimes on some servers abruptly, there HAS to be a contingecy plan for this, a "quantitative easing" of some sorts, like an event with cash prizes, or, if we dont want abrupt inflation and then again return to deflation, increase to 100% chance of money drop from mobs. IMO that will probably compensate the adena that will go to NPCs. They sell also shots, fortunately higher than crafters, but many ppl buy from NPC because they are too lazy and c grade sub doesnt last that long, also trial accounts often have no choice...
Ppl, this is a time bomb, the market, while much better than before merger, risks to grind to a halt because ppl wont be able to set shops afk, or use them only as ads for "WTT stuff". Well, they will be able to set shop, but nobody will afford to buy, as adena will be in shorter supply every day, to the point it will be cheaper to craft a grade than to buy in shop.
Please think of this and plan ahead, so we dont have hasty solutions that will do more harm than good. Dont think that, if some ppl dont pick up adena because they lose time, it means adena is plentyful. It is not and falling prices harm the market, the cheaper will be to buy in NPC store, the more adena will go and less trade will happen untill it is cheaper to craft again, and farm AA for instance. Are we really aiming at THAT low prices ? Or are they tailored on Korean prices ? Can someone tell us how much costs an A grade armor in Korea ?
M
the game isn't balanced to support items costing billions of adena, hell Koreans found it weird we NAers were demanding an adena limit increase back in c3. Our market has been out of whack for years due to easy access to 24/7 farming, cheap chinese adena etc, even the odd adena dupe, it's just now beginning to balance itself.
PS OP ... farm events, that's the most obvious adena maker. And when I say farm I mean sell items, especially on chance type events. Also work the market. The daily grind is designed to at best just cover your consumables cost, not much else.
It's a double edged sword. Lineage II has an amazing system in place for a game economy. Unfortunately, it's almost too realistic and is the subject to the prejudice of its players.
NC West employees are not experts in economics and can't be troubled to manage a struggling market when they have mountains of work in other areas that require their attention.
The economic problems that are currently in L2 are:
1. Low Adena drop rates / amounts.
2. Extremely low item drop rates.
3. Low server population outside a 4 hour "peak" playtime.
4. level gap between the two main player demographics.
5. Equipment options.
I want to point out that all these problems can be fixed, and in many ways would not be problems at all, if players were less slefish.
1. This is a simply matter of what in real life translates to the cost of living, or economicly speaking; Income to Expense ratio. Playing the game genrates an income, which varies from player to player, and with their playstyle. Grinding, raiding, and marketeering all generate income for players, and accumulate into one figure: Income. Buy everything you ever buy in the game from armor, weapons, jewelry, shots, enchants, comsumables, and all other items, accumulates into the other figure: Expenses. The problem lies with the lack of income methods to balance out the ever-increasing list of expenses.
2. This is an indirect issue, as it only impacts the economy second hand. Drops are based on peak times, which means that more items drop during "peak" hours, than in non peak hours. This would make sense, except that people are not hunting during peak hours, they are PvPing. (Seiging, Forts, Etc).
3. This problem reaches backwards as well, affecting issue number two as well. However, the servers now face population issues outside their "peak" hours. People log in, PvP, and leave. There are very few people left online to grind, and replenish the supply of basic materials needed to fuel a healthy economy. The drop rate being based on peak hours needs to be removed, it should not have anything to do with the number of players online at a given time. When I choose to play, or have a chance to play, should not affect my chances of getting an occasional free item. This is a further problem because it also means that the market is not active outside the few hours a day when people log in to PvP.
4. This is one of the most important issues. Most players fall into one of two categories in level. There are End Game players, whose characters are typicall 84 or higher. And the rest of the server, whose characters vary in level, but are generally bellow s80. The reason this is a problem is because players in group one have very different goals than the players in group two. End Game players have managed (legitimately or not) to reach what is effectively the end of the game. They have nothing left to do but fight one another. Thus, they log in only during peak hours and seige, raid, and PvP, and then log off. The players in group two, are the heartbeat of Lineage II. they play the game. They do everything it has to offer. They must grind to exp becuase they are not max level, so they are grinding, partying, raiding, and obviously PvPing as well. However, because they game has, for the last several updates, been catering to the End Game crowd, the "average" player, who belong to group two, are left with less and less to do. There is only one solution to this: Stop adding end game content. Period. Rather than added s86, and R grade, and 40 new 85+ hunting zones, raid bosses, and instanes, they need to add new bosses, items, dungeons, and all around game content to the lower levels... even as low as D grade. (Sinse no grade really doesn't exist any more... not after the first 20 minutes of playing anyway). By doing this, players in both categories will have incentive to play together and experience more than just logging in during the 4 hour peak window and mindlessles doing the same seiges, and the same Epic raids...
5. This issue is a result of the above issues. Players in all grades suffer from a lack of options. In an MMO (specifically one with a competative PvP system) will always have players hat look for the optimal setup for "winning". This means that no matter how many options are available, trial and error will always eventually reveal the one optimal settup that every player will emulate, or fail to "win". There need to be a massive increase in the number of options available to players of all grades, to allow personalization of the character, without loosing a competative edge. Another option is to allow for personalization of the equipment itself (choosing from some list of available color pallets when crafting, or choosing from a list of which set bonuses to apply. Things like that will go miles to correct the issue. and will lead to much more interest in crafting, fueling the economy
Maybe some here missed my point a bit, I'm not asking/discussing about adena making using already existing adena flow, I already know how to do that and did it for many years, I'm just throwing the ball about the "new adena" being brought into the game and how that would make sense in L2 considering the extended adena sinks. I understand the game wasn't supposed to have such prices on items but the amount of adena incoming from botting has frelled up the market and it still is, so at some point it all exploded..
By "farming" events (which I did like crazy when I was more actively playing and made a killing on some) you simply take the adena from the market and throw it back in on items/consumables. In this game adena is/was almost everything, so "making" it is the foundation of advancing things.
I did some crafting but failed like mad on A grade recipes... not even worth mentioning how much time I wasted only to loose almost every single material/recipe (even with the help of other players), so in the end the safest was to buy things ready made, much cheaper in reality since I had no time to refarm only to fail again. But I digress, nevermind.
Putting A grade in shops will do absolutely nothing to the current economy. Noone is making money from crafting a-grade. And those who think they are, stop wasting mats for it, those are needed for higher grade crafts.
Putting A grade in shops will do absolutely nothing to the current economy. Noone is making money from crafting a-grade. And those who think they are, stop wasting mats for it, those are needed for higher grade crafts.
This is almost entirely what the issue with the in-game economy is. Everything is focused on the high level players of the game. All the pricing, all the selling is aimed at these guys. Crafted Leather isn't 40k a piece because B-graders and A-graders need it for making their armor. It's this price because S80-S84 people need it. Crafting lower level gear utilizing materials priced towards higher level players is a complete waste of money. Imagine if you were new to the game, just started a dwarf and wanted to craft a blue wolf gloves for yourself. It would cost you almost half the market value of the gloves just to get the 48 crafted leather necessary to attempt the craft. So now new dwarves feel compelled to just craft base materials in town or just hold off on crafting altogether until they reach level 70+. This is cost of jacked up pricing in the game. The market is severely unfriendly to anyone below S80 and even the ones above that level often resort to less than reputable means to get the materials and money necessary to outfit themselves. Base materials need to be sold in stores to create a ceiling charges. Certain armor and weapon parts should spoil at a higher rate. When this is done, the gathering of adena at the rates the game allows will be more adequate as prices will normalize to pre-ebay levels.
This is almost entirely what the issue with the in-game economy is. Everything is focused on the high level players of the game. All the pricing, all the selling is aimed at these guys. Crafted Leather isn't 40k a piece because B-graders and A-graders need it for making their armor. It's this price because S80-S84 people need it. Crafting lower level gear utilizing materials priced towards higher level players is a complete waste of money. Imagine if you were new to the game, just started a dwarf and wanted to craft a blue wolf gloves for yourself. It would cost you almost half the market value of the gloves just to get the 48 crafted leather necessary to attempt the craft. So now new dwarves feel compelled to just craft base materials in town or just hold off on crafting altogether until they reach level 70+. This is cost of jacked up pricing in the game. The market is severely unfriendly to anyone below S80 and even the ones above that level often resort to less than reputable means to get the materials and money necessary to outfit themselves. Base materials need to be sold in stores to create a ceiling charges. Certain armor and weapon parts should spoil at a higher rate. When this is done, the gathering of adena at the rates the game allows will be more adequate as prices will normalize to pre-ebay levels.
WWW
any 52 lvl character, even non-dorfs, can easily collect the 48 CL they need for BW gloves.
NO 84 lvl character can collect the 2200 CL an attempted Vesper craft requires
That plus the fact the market is always skewed towards wherever the demand comes from. If the population was 1% 85 lvls and 95% 62lvls then guess what? the 62lvls would set market prices.
any 52 lvl character, even non-dorfs, can easily collect the 48 CL they need for BW gloves.
NO 84 lvl character can collect the 2200 CL an attempted Vesper craft requires
That plus the fact the market is always skewed towards wherever the demand comes from. If the population was 1% 85 lvls and 95% 62lvls then guess what? the 62lvls would set market prices.
You are missing the point.
We are getting close to the point where u are better off selling the crafted leather and outright buying the BW gloves. Because the crafted leather is priced so high.
Are you proposing one should keep crafting b grade?
We are getting close to the point where u are better off selling the crafted leather and outright buying the BW gloves. Because the crafted leather is priced so high.
Are you proposing one should keep crafting b grade?
I am afraid you missed the point
I was simply suggesting that the B grader that wants to craft B grade can do it without relying on the market for basic mats, because the basic mat requirements are miniscule. If you read what the guy I quoted was saying was basically put basic mats in NPC shops cause poor B grader can't afford CL at these prices.
On the off-topic issue of crafting B grade, no, of course not ... nobody should craft B (or A in H5) ...It's quite pointless. A Top B(or A) Set will not afford you anywhere near the benefits to offset the whole crafting process. Especially when we get into 60%crafts.
Each day passing i see more and more our servers are in serious troubles.
-Economy of game was created by endless adena/mats for years,players who learned this game had the impression that what they need to do is to lvl so they can be accepted in a big clan(which always had some lvl/gear standard),for making money and gear the easiest way was to bot or buy adena.Question is,how this kind of people will change now mentality and will want to stay grind to make their own mats,craft and fail,stay again grind for mats ,created alts for that and all this time try to be in the big clan(meaning they need to be online for clans activitys,partys activitys and so on).
How many players will short of way replace the banned bots and will bring mats and adena into the market in our 2 servers with -4k population?
-The people who escaped banning on some toons,have whs full of everything and 20-40bilions of ca*****hey can continue play l2,be able to buy first whatever new top item and keep hero/castle/clan without having bottrains.For new players or legit players,there is no way ever to beat them.
-Nscoft made game too difficult for us to play with the instanced raids who have lvl limit.Most of partys can 't find all supports,or all 82 or even all 80.When we were doing raids as clan,we could always take lower supports with us or fill the constant party with some people from clan/ally,nowdays with comandchannels we cant.This makes a non ending searching for support, help him on lvling,giving some gear and after some time may get banned,or quit,or transfer and there you go again searching for new one/lvling ect..
Again,clans from 3-4 servers are playing in 1 server having wars to each other and they all want a piece of the top spot for 85lvl,or for aoe,or for attribute stones,which is simply too small for all.Even if some people want to go grind for something,they cant do it tagged since there's usually only 1-2 spots for this and people from the stronger clan will come and pk them for spot.
In short words,L2 to fuction needs high population made of players that are willing to stay grind for mats without shots everyday,to make the maximum profit of adena/items/mats droping.This could work on early chronicles,if our servers had also the right vitality and good items events to make those players not stay for ever on their 60s grinding,our servers didnt had them, the lack of such events was the major reasons players understood that if they dont ''put'' some other toons make the grinding job day and night,their mains wont ever be able to reach top lvl of each chronicle and top gear.
Nevermind. Cant explain such a complex issue in a few words. I just think that 100% chance to drop adena from mobs will help newbies and allow a softlanding of prices to Korean levels without cripling the market, where we have fewer ppl than optimal.
M
Nevermind. Cant explain such a complex issue in a few words. I just think that 100% chance to drop adena from mobs will help newbies and allow a softlanding of prices to Korean levels without cripling the market, where we have fewer ppl than optimal.
M
Despite of OP topic.
Mao you are terribly wrong.
Increasing Adena Drop Rate will not change anything.
It is like printing money in Zimbabwe around 10 years ago.
They were very efficient in printing it. As result all were rich ... but it stopped ANY money (based on Zimbabwe currency) transaction and turn economy into goods exchange only while Currency was worthless.
Was like in L2, laying on ground 1000000 was not even worth to pick-up from ground.
Suppose that all instantly get x2 Adena... then all sellers in 1-2 days will rise price x2 roughly.
It is call Inflation.
Solution would be Increase Mats Drop Rates - especially those A+ grade.
That is not what I said. It will be 30% more money drops to compensate the drain that a grade items bought from shop as well as AA and other stuffs (oly items, etc) will do SUPLEMENTAL to what drain is now. Every day more adena disapears on shots, consumables, items bought from shops, even codexes got against ke or badges still cost some money, fees for processing different things, that is adena that is going away and, while I agree that our prices are still higher than in korea (probably, because they put ridiculous prices on a grade items when it was supposed to be higher than craft so ppl still craft them) and still need to go down, going down abruptly after we already went through a merger shock on the market, wont do any good, deflation kills the market, I recommend a soft landing, that is all.
M
Adena leaves the server at an ever increased rate. This is not due to shots, which are a pretty constant factor due to soul ore/spirit ore prices being fixed.
Adena leaves this game as such a high rate mostly because of things like nevit hourglasses and augments.
At every new chronicle/throne there are new grades of weapons available. Right now augmenting vesper weapons costs roughly 2.3m adena per try.
(1.4m to remove previous augment, 600k in b-gems, 300k for ls)
Mid-84 costs roughly 3m
Now factor in that some people need specific augments for their job if they want to be competitive. Let's say a nuke augments for healers. This kind of augmenting easily takes a few hundred tries. Infact for my SE I did not get a nuke augment even after 1200+ tries and I spent 2.8 billion adena without getting a 110 power nuke augment on a vesper weapon.
I don't have any precise numbers but I think the average adena of people in this game is somewhere between 200 and 300 million. And that is not counting buffer accounts. So just in trying to be competitive I spent the same amount of money as 10 regular people would have. And without success even.
Then also look at nevit hourglasses. They cost 5m at lvl 80-85. Let's say the whole server spends 1b a day on hourglasses. That again is the equal value of what 4 people would have in total money.
It is this money that is truly lost to the system since there will be nothing left after it is used. The same goes for the AA people will be able to buy in high 5. Every time someone buys AA, it is adena leaving the server instead of going to someone who farmed for it. Now look at how many s-gems you need to buy an SA on a mid-84 weapon. 1050. 1 gem is 100k AA. So 300k adena. This means you will pump out 315m adena out of the server to put on an SA.
Right now this leads to a huge devaluation of gear in game. However it comes at a big cost. Crafting right now, is only done to get rare armors and weapons. Everything that is already made is far far cheaper then making it yourself. Also the huge lack of adena with many people in game leads to stagnation on the ingame market, where items at a price far below crafting price are just not bought because people do not have adena for it.
Basically our servers need an adena inflow roughly the same as the adena outflow, not far below or far above. That means involvement from gms/cms to monitor the adena level of the server and adjust drop rates of items and adena. Every country does the same, they need to make sure their inflation is not too big or too small, otherwise you remain in a perpetual economic crisis.
The only people who profit right now from the excessive adena shortage are the sellers who make more money right now due to higher prices and more demand.
You simply cannot add adena to the market and expect it to have a positive outcome. More money in people's pockets equal higher prices in private shops. Sure it would be great when doing things that are NPC priced such as augmenting and the like, but the average costs of shots, armor, element stones, and anything else that can be put in a private shop will shoot through the roof.
Case in point. There was a PTS a couple of years ago where they gave everyone a moderately large sum of money on their first character ( I believe it was 500m or something like that). There were no PTS cats at the time so soulshots and the like had to be crafted by dwarves. People that made dwarves started crafting shots and put them in the stores at 1500-3000 a shot. Several dwarves were billionaires many times over in just under 4 hours. This is what you could expect if there was suddenly a lot of adena available.
As far as armor and weapons starting to lose value....good! They've been way over priced for a few years now. The ability to buy adena pushed more money into people's hands and prices surged accordingly. This made the financial gap between the have and the have-nots so wide that the game lost any semblance of balance and the market degenerated into the mess that you have now. While I will always agree that the market needs a change, keeping prices high and adding more adena just doesn't cut it.
It's not necessary for NCSoft to monitor how much adena they have in game. They built adena sinks into the game to make you get out there and grind a bit to make some cash. They should, however, make sure that there is always a substitution for certain necessary materials to prevent the rampant price-rigging we've all become so accustomed to over the years.
Since when has this become WoW? Its L2 nothing is easy. It does make some people qiut the game. It makes some people stay because they like the challenge. This is how it is
/ontopic
For every level and every class there is away too make adena. Either by being in a clan that does weekly or daily raids or by having a constant party. As said before many times this game is built around teamplay or boxing a **** load of accounts.
The problem arises when people who are like level lvl78 for example wanting top gear MW or +6 etc. Its not gonna happen unless you save up alot and play the market for a view months.
83+ however it should be easy too make adena by doing raids/SOA/tiat/freya/frint or whatever.
Adding or changing the ingame adena drop of economics can break the game.
I do need more adena for the stuff i want, thats a given fact. But thats also a force that keep you playing the game. So you can save up and get the things you want ingame. And that is part of the enjoyment.
The economic in L2 seem to be good. I've not played many other MMOs, but I've listened to other players complaining about them. If a game puts in more coin than it takes out, the result is price inflation for items which are scarce. That makes for an ever increasing level of difficulty for new players entering the game, unless, as L2 is doing, NPCs sell everything at fixed prices. Increasing the drop rate of coin from mobs simply makes it worse, by speeding up the inflation, though it 'fixes' for a very short time the 'problem'.
L2 is not a game of abundance, but of scarcity. Resources are, still are, despite NC's continuing to increase supplies mainly by selling items from NPCs, scarce. Not all, but definitely certain specific ones. The flip side of that coin though is new low level players have less chance of getting a good valuable drop to assist them with getting better gear, older players are seeing their hard earned lower lvl gear devalued to a point of worthlessness.
L2 does have good adena sinks, lots. That in itself is good. You should not be unable to play for lack of adena. With the rapidly levelling currently in the game though, that is happening though, but if you play several toons on your account, you can gather in just as much adena and materials as was formerly the case before levelling up became so much easier. Despite it seeming that you can get rapidly to high levels, you can not. Not without engaging in RMT at least and other prohibited activities.
Only those players who are already at the level cap should be able to afford to put 100s of augments on items, OE skills to the highest levels, spend 100s of millions on Nevit Hourglasses (though the point of doing so seems limited) and get the top OE'd weapons, jewelry and armor. Any player whose highest toon is not in the lvl 84/85 category, should be facing difficult choices about where to use the limited resources available to them. I can't see this as some thing which can be 'fixed'. At some point, easy = boring. If the developers have done enough damage, it's a dead game.
If you can't afford to buy everything you want, that's good. Can't afford to upgrade everything you want, good too. Go out, play, hunt, get more stuff so you can afford to do the stuff you currently can't. If you don't like to hunt mobs, or do quests, or party to kill harder mobs or RBs, then why are you playing L2. These activities might not be all L2 has to offer, but it's a core part of the game. Not a problem to be fixed.
Events, which may or may not prove to be fun, add, or at least shift, adena in the economy. Other activities which reliably add adena (or items which can be sold to NPCs for adena) might not be as fun. Mostly there are other things you can do, other ways to get to the same goal. Asking NC to fix things which are not broken, particularly since they might, is not the best plan for L2's long term survival.
it is bad enough we have keyensian economics in real life, can we allow real market forces in L2. thx.
It is definitely easy to make money and buy items now, more than ever... icarus weapons sell for under 300 mil... anything below S80 is just a joke in price... you can buy a full dc set for 30 mil, where when i originally got my dc set the helmet was worth 100 mil alone...
keep on with this deflation, it is good! allows everyone to have decent gear
also there is no deflation on income, only on prices... i was easily able to farm 65 million in 2 days, by doing forts and leveling at beast farm.. i wasn't trying super hard either, im sure some people make way more
Well, this isnt Keynesian policy, it is called balancing. On one hand we have big adena exits, we need to have on the other some suplementing, because, while our prices are higher than in Korea and the new content is added for those prices, therefore sooner or later we will have to reach same price levels, any sudden changes are not good for the market.
The levels at which prices are falling right now are almost OK, but we will have a new burden on the adena supply, I didnt suggest to increase it in general, just to slow down the drain.
I agree that the market will find equilibrium with any adena levels, it is the transition period which wont be easy, prices are supposed to be stable, in general, influenced only by items supply and demand, not adena supply and demand too.
Once again, personally I dont really care, I am making more money in the times of crisis (mergers, deflation, inflation), what I suggested was a soft landing, but the more shocks there will be, the better for me and for other ppl that will be prepared.
Since most ppl that care for this problem are informed enough and happy with it, I dont have any problem either. In the end, newbies will win from this, so all good.
M
Guys, most of you are totally WRONG!
Adena doesn't leave the servers because of the increased expenses to the NPCs! That is ridiculous. If I decide to pick my adena from the ground (which I am not doing for months because the adena drop from level 84 mobs is 3 times lower than the adena drop in Varka) I would be making enough adena to pay to NPC, pay for shots and I would even make some extra adena.
The real reasons for the decreasing of the adena in the economy are as follows:
1. All players who are quitting the game and are trying to sell their stuff for adena and then sell the adena are getting banned. May be some of them have successfully sold everything but most of them don't. That is ~ 15-20 billion adena being banned per player quitting.
2. Those players who are making high ammount of adena (there are a few classes who can do that at any level) can't sell their adena for RL money because they are afraid of getting banned.
I bet there are at least 300 accounts with 10+ billions of adena in them and another 20 or more accounts with 20-30-50+ billions of adena in them at this very moment on Naya. Those guys don't need that adena, they don't need to buy new equipment either so that adena just stays there... and there is virtually zero chance for it to flow into the economy again.
None the less those guys who own that adena are making more adena every day so they are the ones draining the adena out on the whole server.
Guys, most of you are totally WRONG!
Adena doesn't leave the servers because of the increased expenses to the NPCs! That is ridiculous. If I decide to pick my adena from the ground (which I am not doing for months because the adena drop from level 84 mobs is 3 times lower than the adena drop in Varka) I would be making enough adena to pay to NPC, pay for shots and I would even make some extra adena.
The real reasons for the decreasing of the adena in the economy are as follows:
1. All players who are quitting the game and are trying to sell their stuff for adena and then sell the adena are getting banned. May be some of them have successfully sold everything but most of them don't. That is ~ 15-20 billion adena being banned per player quitting.
2. Those players who are making high ammount of adena (there are a few classes who can do that at any level) can't sell their adena for RL money because they are afraid of getting banned.
I bet there are at least 300 accounts with 10+ billions of adena in them and another 20 or more accounts with 20-30-50+ billions of adena in them at this very moment on Naya. Those guys don't need that adena, they don't need to buy new equipment either so that adena just stays there... and there is virtually zero chance for it to flow into the economy again.
None the less those guys who own that adena are making more adena every day so they are the ones draining the adena out on the whole server.
DarkRall, I'm having trouble understanding your argument. You claim that adena doesn't leave the server when goods are bought from NPCs? Some of it does flow back to the clans holding the local castle, and Aden Castle, but most is just gone. If you are not picking up the adena from the mobs you kill, then after 10 minutes, if no one else picks it up, it's gone too.
I don't hunt Varkas, they are my good buddies.. but on toons under level 78 or 79, I spent more on shot than I got in adena hunting Ketra. Used to hunt Garden of Beasts after I spent some time doing Ketra, just to make up the short fall, or spend a day hunting the Big WoA Angels who are well paid. But at level 60+ an experienced player should have no problem getting enough adena to more than cover their costs.
The real problem is for new players who now need a significant amount of adena to buy gear from NPCs until they get to level 61 and soon 75, where they can either craft or buy from other players. The easy sources, items which can make them quite a lot of adena if they are lucky enough to get it, are mostly gone. Events and the selling of stuff from them, seems the best way that low level players can get adena to buy from NPCs the gear they need.
Under point 1, you are saying that because people who sell their gear and leave can't sell the adena they get for RL money, that that is reducing the amount of adena in the game. Well same can be said for those who are not trying to break the rules, and just stop playing. Leaving their gear and adena on their toons. There it stays until someone hacks them and then attempts to sell that gear/adena back into game. Is your point that only by making the RMT business legit can the economy of L2 be improved?
Point 2 seems to be the same as point 1.. Except those players are just holding their adena, not letting the adena on line people move it back into the game. Where is the problem here, and how does letting these people break the rules make L2 better?
While toons and clans holding adena will reduce the active adena in the game, it is meaningless. I'm sure the value of stuff on dormant accounts, stuff never sold to the RMT people, far exceeds the stuff currently on accounts banned for that activity or sitting on toons in the hope that NC's vigilance against RMT wains before the servers go down. If they kill mobs, pick up stuff and horde the adena they collect, how does that harm the rest of us? How would any other action they take benefit us, or help new players to get the adena they need for better gear?
But most of those hording toons don't create adena in the game, nor remove it permanently from the game. Adena is only created from mob drops, from quests, and from the selling to NPCs the stuff the mobs drop. It only leaves the server permanently if given to an NPC to get something or if carried off during a server transfer.
RMT has nothing to do with creating or destroying adena.. Though those who get caught and banned, or lose their adena/gear could be said to be destroying adena. Until the adena are in the hands of a player who then spends it, that RMT adena has no significance, and at that point, the adena just servers to push up the prices of scarce goods.
So, are you saying that banning players who break the rules is a mistake?
Guys, most of you are totally WRONG!
Adena doesn't leave the servers because of the increased expenses to the NPCs! That is ridiculous. If I decide to pick my adena from the ground (which I am not doing for months because the adena drop from level 84 mobs is 3 times lower than the adena drop in Varka) I would be making enough adena to pay to NPC, pay for shots and I would even make some extra adena.
The real reasons for the decreasing of the adena in the economy are as follows:
1. All players who are quitting the game and are trying to sell their stuff for adena and then sell the adena are getting banned. May be some of them have successfully sold everything but most of them don't. That is ~ 15-20 billion adena being banned per player quitting.
2. Those players who are making high ammount of adena (there are a few classes who can do that at any level) can't sell their adena for RL money because they are afraid of getting banned.
I bet there are at least 300 accounts with 10+ billions of adena in them and another 20 or more accounts with 20-30-50+ billions of adena in them at this very moment on Naya. Those guys don't need that adena, they don't need to buy new equipment either so that adena just stays there... and there is virtually zero chance for it to flow into the economy again.
None the less those guys who own that adena are making more adena every day so they are the ones draining the adena out on the whole server.
This doesn't support the nature of Lineage 2. Since L2 does not have a finite amount of adena available there can't be any amount of hoarding that would negatively affect the market. People experience a constant influx of adena via hunting and quests. In this type of system, the only thing that's finite about money is its utility. Once a person has upgraded their equipment as far as they are able, all money accumulated from that point forward (minus expenses) becomes virtually useless. It is for this reason that adena acquisition was meant to be a slow and steady process. By keeping the adena flow low, prices remained slightly elevated yet reasonably attainable over time. It also prevented the likelihood of any individual maxing out before the next update giving developers a chance to add items to keep players both interested and motivated. As long as the players followed the rules, the economy would remain balanced and entry into the market would be less exclusionary.
However....
What happened is that excessive program use allowed more money and materials to flow into the hands of players faster than it was ever originally designed to. This allowed many people to get top items within weeks of updates being released and created a huge overflow of adena into the hands of many players. Now even this wouldn't have completely broken the market had the players just kept the adena and enjoyed their elite status, but the temptation of real life cash caused these people to sell their useless adena for real money. That adena (which would normally end up out of the market keeping prices reasonable) was then introduced back into the economy creating artificial inflation. As there was now more money put into the market than the market could reasonably absorb without making items worthless, prices had to rise. This worked in favor of the program users/resellers because they could craft items with the materials their programs brought in and then sell for inflated prices. They then resold the adena from the purchase for real cash and then repeated this process ad nauseum.
I don't fully blame those that abused the system, however, as they were just opportunist that saw a way to make some money and took it. There's something beautiful about making money without having to actually work for it. I do blame NCSoft for not breaking the profit margins of these people a lot sooner. As the creators of the game, they are the governing body that should enforce rules on the world they created. The hands-off approach that they've fostered for the longest time has only served to make this game unplayable by most. The neglect shown by NCSoft West served to make them the biggest allies of those that crushed their game and now threatens their jobs.
I still say that to make the game more accessible to new players you need to break the material market and let crafting become more reasonable. This will lower prices across the boards in almost no time. If people feel that crafting is a better option, prices on everything will have to drop to a point that buying is better than gathering. This will force the prices closer to the actual game value instead of 300% to 500% markup that everyone experiences now.
any 52 lvl character, even non-dorfs, can easily collect the 48 CL they need for BW gloves.
NO 84 lvl character can collect the 2200 CL an attempted Vesper craft requires
That plus the fact the market is always skewed towards wherever the demand comes from. If the population was 1% 85 lvls and 95% 62lvls then guess what? the 62lvls would set market prices.
Excuse me? Please tell me how you even came to that conclusion lol
Adding adena to the market won't do anything but increase prices because that causes a blatant raise in inflation (you have more money? Now it's time for you to pay more for my item :D). There's a bit of truth in DarkRall's post, but it would take time for it to take a noticeable effect on the game economy.
Some of the posts were too big to read so i will say just my opinion.
The problem from my point of view is the exact opposite from what the thread started with.
Really if someone count the ways that we destroy adena you will see that the only effective one is augmenting. As for pots most stop using simple healing pots after 61 just cause their effect is too low plus the useless junk that you will pick up from mobs are enough to pay for pots so to reinsert the adena loss(destruction). As for ss they are partialy adena(destroyers) since only the ores you have to buy from shop and i dont know about you but in most exp places i have gone i could buy my ss with the adena drops and have some profit most of the times. Now counting that the ss seller has profits too and from the adena he uses to craft the ss only a part gets washed away from game you will see that the adena leaving game from ss and pot are less than the adena entering from exping.
L2 was not designed to have thousands of accounts(1 acc=several toons)banned just in 1 year or have adenasellers-farmers to fix prices of items on everyserver according to the ammount of money they wanted players to spend for gear.
Players bought their s-s80 gear for bilions and after less than 1 year were forced to sell them for a few milions,without having anything in game that will make them earn this money back,if this is not the worst adena sink of all then what is it?
The lack of events for years is also responsible,since we never took in our hands something from game we could use or sell untill recently and the lack of vitality made us need more time(=more shots,more expenses)to reach each lvl.
The bans and transfers and renames and selling toons also created a chaos, forced us to plvl over and over toons of same class(spending shots,staying in areas without drops ),instead of move ahead,end with xp on mains and farm only things that give adena.How many times ive lost my time lvling the new ee in party,the new bd,the new sws,the new wc,the new ol,who needs to take lvl to get the skill we need,needs to take lvl so he can enter HB,or SOA,only to loose them without ever learn why..was it a ban,did he transfer,was the toon recalled,or sold?
This is not enviroment for game to fuction with what the mobs drop and the npcs buy.
Game mechanics that leave player with empty hands do exist and make me wonder how koreans manage to use them since prices of npc's craft/selling/buy have to be the same.
-Augm after s grade,worth and sucess to attempt the skill is just ****,maybe koreans dont use them at all?
-Npc luxury trading raids eggs for agathion is not a 100% trade(but npc doesnt say that)many players just lost hundreads of milions trying to get a stupid agathion.
-High lvl areas(not best spot,just areas on our lvl) are impossible to be if not top geared.The change in attribute system in armors made people not be able to complete the 3x60 in their armor(and for full attrib they should do 3x120)before the next update comes,bringing new armor=again new stones for attrib blah blah blah...
-Enchants of skills cost us too much for years
-And last of all,the all time failures in crafting,which make every ready-made item better to buy than to craft.
wrong for that. it's really easy for the spoiler i am to farm those amount of CL.
oh for the love of all that is good, you people have never heard of using hyperbole to make a point ...
The point I was making was that the amount you need at 84 is huge, you have no access to manor ...Joe Q Average trying to gather 2000 cl at 84 would literally take a month trying. Now if a spoiler at 84 can solo specific mobs and make the 2000 in a week spoiling, fine, but that's not the point. The debate was why stuff costs so much and why are evil high level players increasing the prices of key mats, the answer was cause they need silly amounts of them.
But whatever ... here ... /pat in the back ... you 're epic ... you can spoil CL at 84. Happy?
This is not enviroment for game to fuction with what the mobs drop and the npcs buy.
Game mechanics that leave player with empty hands do exist and make me wonder how koreans manage to use them since prices of npc's craft/selling/buy have to be the same.
-Augm after s grade,worth and sucess to attempt the skill is just ****,maybe koreans dont use them at all?
-Npc luxury trading raids eggs for agathion is not a 100% trade(but npc doesnt say that)many players just lost hundreads of milions trying to get a stupid agathion.
-High lvl areas(not best spot,just areas on our lvl) are impossible to be if not top geared.The change in attribute system in armors made people not be able to complete the 3x60 in their armor(and for full attrib they should do 3x120)before the next update comes,bringing new armor=again new stones for attrib blah blah blah...
-Enchants of skills cost us too much for years
-And last of all,the all time failures in crafting,which make every ready-made item better to buy than to craft.
you are missjudging, you having no adena with you getting those adena out of the game.
All the things you mention are choices you take to make adena go around the game (ok skill enchanting takes some of the games adena) but you miss the point. You mention the above like someone put a gun and force you to enchant skills, forced you to get the attributes forced you to buy not craft.
All gamers want to go to top lvl top gear top all ( at least most) but that does not mean that you have to spent more than you can. You mention about S80 sold for bilions yet thoose ppl tried to buy and not actualy craft them. Many wanted EssII but very few players actualy went there to farm it. Its everyones choice if you want to farm it or pay for it and the fact that you want it does not mean that you should get it. I want a DB9 and if i sell everything i own and get a loan then i might get one with a full fuel tank does this mean that i should do it? This is what seperates us from private pvp servers there you get everything and just pvp here you got to earn it!
As for the areas you mention which areas need top top gear only?
oh for the love of all that is good, you people have never heard of using hyperbole to make a point ...
The point I was making was that the amount you need at 84 is huge, you have no access to manor ...Joe Q Average trying to gather 2000 cl at 84 would literally take a month trying. Now if a spoiler at 84 can solo specific mobs and make the 2000 in a week spoiling, fine, but that's not the point. The debate was why stuff costs so much and why are evil high level players increasing the prices of key mats, the answer was cause they need silly amounts of them.
But whatever ... here ... /pat in the back ... you 're epic ... you can spoil CL at 84. Happy?
If you take a month to acquire 2k CL, you're doing it wrong. imo the reason why it costs so much is cuz of what is required to make the CL. Alot of mats require certain basic mats that for SOME REASON, have shot up in price on the market, namely because ppl have been crafting themselves, and these items are needed in nearly every craft. In CL's case: Iron Ore. Only reason it's gotten so expensive, end of story.
You mention the above like someone put a gun and force you to enchant skills, forced you to get the attributes forced you to buy not craft.
All gamers want to go to top lvl top gear top all ( at least most) but that does not mean that you have to spent more than you can. You mention about S80 sold for bilions yet thoose ppl tried to buy and not actualy craft them. Many wanted EssII but very few players actualy went there to farm it. Its everyones choice if you want to farm it or pay for it and the fact that you want it does not mean that you should get it. This is what seperates us from private pvp servers there you get everything and just pvp here you got to earn it!
As for the areas you mention which areas need top top gear only?
You give 2 examples like if you havent play L2 on those times.
-To craft dynasty armor/weapons,even 1 year after they released,players needed to make a veeeeeryyy long quest,which required a party,and even more,required a full party to stay for about 1 month without getting xp or drops,untill 1 person completes this q.Then,you should be able to have a party to xp inside HB to collect q items and exchange for parts and this was super difficult since HB was the place all farmers had their bottrains,all top clans were pvping to hold the place,no random neutral party would survive since bottrainers would kill you to take spot and if in pvp clan you couldnt complete this so VERY long q because of wars unless you and your party were playing on hours all other server was sleeping.
That's why s80 were so expensive,because only few people on each server were controling HB.During those times,players even transfered on botservers to be able farm HB with the rest of bots without wars and then come back in their original server with dynasty set and all skills enchanted.Do you suggest this was what all players should do?
-For essII,it was same story,again you should make a q with a full party to be able to enter(if people from all classes available) and then hunt inside citadel for q items on mobs only specific classes were able to make damage.Ofc,people got banned/transfer/quit/sold toons and noone that did this q ever had this party to hunt in citadel unless they were playing with rl friends who wouldnt just dissapear,they were forced to do this q again for some new guys,then again for someone else and on the end just gave up.Add to this the wars also,since all farmers wanted to control this place and all top partys from each clan too and thats why all other players did buy their essII.
-About who force you to enchant skills,make 3 attribute armors,make 300 weapons,its the people you play with.When all major clans pay attention only to their top partys-and to become top party you need to be geared better and faster from others+have high lvls,and players on top partys boted untill 85 and ebayed for everything,what are your options?Join a big clan and stay in a corner untill you hear you are poorely geared/skilled and they dont invite you in any party?(like they didnt invite in xp partys people without 3/5 and 300 weapons)or stay in a small clan for ever and leave the ebayers rule the game?
If there were no ebayers/botters,then the only thing that would force you to try become stronger would be the top xp areas(cause poorely skilled/geared you would need heros in party to survive in there).
Name of those areas?Just remember the arcana spot when HB opened,partys without epics were duying like flys there.But the top geared ones made top xp and top adena from the drops.
Nowdays SOA is such a place,if most players of party dont have good attribute resist on armors they will suffer many deaths and the top xp will turn into a medium xp,thats why people dont invite such partys toons without 250+ def attrib at least(+epics).