Given the ability for NCSoft Austin to localize Lineage 2 for the US and Europe, can they remove Game Guard from future releases of Lineage 2 such as Goddess of Destruction?
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As an aside -- I know that INNOVA who operates Lineage 2 out of Russia do not pack their game with Game Guard and instead use another protection vendor. I am not advocating an alternative protection method as no protection method currently deployed on any of the Lineage 2 franchises protects from any 3rd party software such as bots or rootkits (account theft). I have played Lineage 2 since open beta of 2004 so I know how much of a performance hit we took when they implemented it back in C1. I am hoping that given the redux on L2 that GoD will be that perhaps we can move back to a standard L2 client and let the enforcement be dealt with by the GM staff.
Given the ability for NCSoft Austin to localize Lineage 2 for the US and Europe, can they remove Game Guard from future releases of Lineage 2 such as Goddess of Destruction?
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As an aside -- I know that INNOVA who operates Lineage 2 out of Russia do not pack their game with Game Guard and instead use another protection vendor. I am not advocating an alternative protection method as no protection method currently deployed on any of the Lineage 2 franchises protects from any 3rd party software such as bots or rootkits (account theft). I have played Lineage 2 since open beta of 2004 so I know how much of a performance hit we took when they implemented it back in C1. I am hoping that given the redux on L2 that GoD will be that perhaps we can move back to a standard L2 client and let the enforcement be dealt with by the GM staff.
Or change it for something more useful against current programs, I would be great :P
The can't change something they don't make ... Gameguard is third party and they probably have a license deal for it, why pay silly money to make something exclusively for 3500 peak subscribers? ;)
The can't change something they don't make ... Gameguard is third party and they probably have a license deal for it, why pay silly money to make something exclusively for 3500 peak subscribers? ;)
Because they will have more customers like this, and if its to expensive to develop maybe take the russian type off gameguard:p
But i think i had read once that they are some lawn in EU/USA that dosnt allow tem use such type of game protection.i dont know maybe it evolving too much with customers personal data in his pc.
I know that INNOVA who operates Lineage 2 out of Russia do not pack their game with Game Guard and instead use another protection vendor. I am not advocating an alternative protection method as no protection method currently deployed on any of the Lineage 2 franchises protects from any 3rd party software such as bots or rootkits
You know, this so called "protection" from innova is a rootkit itself, works like a virus, exactly thats why its a forbidden method in USA and many other countries. So if some bad ppl gain control over this "protection" (or mb they already got it?) - they will have a nice botnet. :mad:
Because they will have more customers like this, and if its to expensive to develop maybe take the russian type off gameguard:p
But i think i had read once that they are some lawn in EU/USA that dosnt allow tem use such type of game protection.i dont know maybe it evolving too much with customers personal data in his pc.
Russia is EU dude :/
Anyway .. ontopic ... umm .. I'm wondering if game guard has actually caught someone cheating since its MEGA easy to bypass it :X
I installed RU client last night and they loaded somekind of anti-malware software ... and that's everytime i run the game :D **** epic
Never worked and blocked normal programs insteads of cheats. It still dont detect ZR..ge., L2C...., Wa......
It blocks only inputs and few ports.
Only way to fix cheating, is by putting a few GMspamms into the game, which search actively/manual (starting with Silenthorrors). When goddess update will be out, there wont be not much ppl left anyway.
Or change it for something more useful against current programs, I would be great :P
Impossible to stop cheat programs.
It is possible to remove an tool (game guard) that causes severe performance impact and adds no value.
Another way to look at my argument is since game guard provides no value to the customer or to NCsoft, why not remove it and enhance your customer experience.
hate to say it but the real hackers/programmers know their way around that, those from one program even made it working on RU OFF for their premium users beating Frost like it doesn't exist and that is way more aggressive then GameGuard..
as long as people are willing to pay to cheat it's profitable enough for hackers to try to **** accounts, exploit game bugs & create prog's. and this applies to any game not just Lineage2.
I used to have GG disabled precisely for the reasons Diego mentioned as when multi boxing the CPU hit my old PC took was to much but then NC started checking again if folks were disabling it and after my first warning email I enabled it again.. just forced me to upgrade my hardware so I could still box my buffers.. >.<"
Gameguard provide something. Try to inject L2 with some funny stuff, Gameguard will do his role :P
Again ... bypassing game guard is piece of cake. And given that NA/EU GG client updates once in 6 months+ be sure that a new **** will stay for awhile :)
GameGuard to lineage is the same as Cheating-Death was to Counter-Strike back in the day right before the developers gave up :D It was pointless...they were changing protocols every single time and the hacks were coming right after sending the right packets to bypass the server protection :S
The best protection against automated programs is by using "hidden" packets...those are packets that the server sends once every X hours and awaits specific response. If it is a bot it won't response. If it is game client - it will response properly thus its not bot. No need of game guard or anything. Sure eventually hackers will sniff em out but you can always change the packets D:
Given the ability for NCSoft Austin to localize Lineage 2 for the US and Europe.
If only they had it... I believe managers are competent enough to see what's going on in the market but they can't act on what's happening due to being just small part of big company.
It is to stop keyloggers from getting people's password from net cafes, as most Koreans log in from net cafes.
That's actually very wrong. The antikeylogger module is called nProtect KeyCrypt, gameguard is just a standard rootkit that supposedly protects the game app from injections etc. In fact gameguard itself keylogs lots and lots of stuff.
It is to stop keyloggers from getting people's password from net cafes, as most Koreans log in from net cafes.
well it used to be silently allowed to remove it at your own risk but after some hacking incidents/few changes in how to capture walker users etc. they started re-enforcing the mandatory rule of do not remove GG..
if they stop checking for it on the NA servers aka when I would not get a warning email saying next time we catch you without you get a temp ban I would remove it in a heart beat as I know how to protect my own pc from hackers etc. ^^"
Again ... bypassing game guard is piece of cake. And given that NA/EU GG client updates once in 6 months+ be sure that a new **** will stay for awhile :)
GameGuard to lineage is the same as Cheating-Death was to Counter-Strike back in the day right before the developers gave up :D It was pointless...they were changing protocols every single time and the hacks were coming right after sending the right packets to bypass the server protection :S
The best protection against automated programs is by using "hidden" packets...those are packets that the server sends once every X hours and awaits specific response. If it is a bot it won't response. If it is game client - it will response properly thus its not bot. No need of game guard or anything. Sure eventually hackers will sniff em out but you can always change the packets D:
hate to say it but the real hackers/programmers know their way around that, those from one program even made it working on RU OFF for their premium users beating Frost like it doesn't exist and that is way more aggressive then GameGuard..
as long as people are willing to pay to cheat it's profitable enough for hackers to try to **** accounts, exploit game bugs & create prog's. and this applies to any game not just Lineage2.
I used to have GG disabled precisely for the reasons Diego mentioned as when multi boxing the CPU hit my old PC took was to much but then NC started checking again if folks were disabling it and after my first warning email I enabled it again.. just forced me to upgrade my hardware so I could still box my buffers.. >.<"
yes it's easy to avoid Gameguard. Like Draecke I used to disable gameguard. Why ? Launch game in 3sec instead of 10/12, no lag during teleport, less CPU usage.
I don't say Gameguard is good, tbh I hate it. But it does something. It's sad you just need to write "disable gameguard" on google to bypass it, and it makes it completely ineffective
if they stop checking for it on the NA servers aka when I would not get a warning email saying next time we catch you without you get a temp ban I would remove it in a heart beat as I know how to protect my own pc from hackers etc. ^^"
In the past few days, I tried a new illegal server, that is hosting hi5.pt5.
Server is almost always Heavy.. and I have 1/10 of the lags that I get in NCSoft Servers.. plus I did some tests...
I downloaded 2 3rd party applications and tried running them.. result.. as soon as the app was launched.. game got killed and it wouldn't open until I close the 3rd party app.
What amazes me.. is that how "curious non-official" devs are able to protect their servers.. and NC isn't.
If I happen to hate GoD(when it launches) as much as I do atm.. I know where I will be playing.
(If I stop posting for a while.. Its because I got suspended)
In the past few days, I tried a new illegal server, that is hosting hi5.pt5.
Server is almost always Heavy.. and I have 1/10 of the lags that I get in NCSoft Servers.. plus I did some tests...
I downloaded 2 3rd party applications and tried running them.. result.. as soon as the app was launched.. game got killed and it wouldn't open until I close the 3rd party app.
What amazes me.. is that how "curious non-official" devs are able to protect their servers.. and NC isn't.
If I happen to hate GoD(when it launches) as much as I do atm.. I know where I will be playing.
(If I stop posting for a while.. Its because I got suspended)
this is much harder at an official and international service like the NCwest service, doesn't compare it with other servers or a local service.
In Korea work the game guard and work well, cuz the Korean rules let, that you can go to real life jail if u use illegal programs or rmt. But to that no international rules.
this is much harder at an official and international service like the NCwest service, doesn't compare it with a private server or a local service.
In Korea work the game guard and work well, cuz the Korean rules let, that you can go to real life jail if u use illegal programs or rmt. But to that no international rules.
True..
There's a saying in Portugal that goes something like this:
"If you can't hunt with a dog, use a cat".
Meaning.. there are numerous ways to protect against pvp-progs-for-noobs.
There's a saying in Portugal that goes something like this:
"If you can't hunt with a dog, use a cat".
Meaning.. there are numerous ways to protect against pvp-progs-for-noobs.
Well, Moxie told soon they will handle with same strong hand the pvp cheaters as currently against the bots.
I'm not sure, that any international company install a defender system what doesn't let in the cheaters to the server, mostly the reason the real life rules and rights. But the NCwest showed, that they can detect and bann very fast the farmer bots or xper bots, so if Moxie says soon they will do the same with pvp cheaters too, than i guess we won't have problem anymore with the cheaters.
Before, MaoMao again would comments, that bots are everywhere, it is really not right anymore.
I know some guys who still at nowadays too trying use bot for xp, but they get bann again, again and again. So the anti bot system work well.
We would like to see same system against the pvp cheaters, before the GD release or when the GD release, this would be one of most positive thing for the players.
In the past few days, I tried a new illegal server, that is hosting hi5.pt5.
Server is almost always Heavy.. and I have 1/10 of the lags that I get in NCSoft Servers.. plus I did some tests...
I downloaded 2 3rd party applications and tried running them.. result.. as soon as the app was launched.. game got killed and it wouldn't open until I close the 3rd party app.
What amazes me.. is that how "curious non-official" devs are able to protect their servers.. and NC isn't.
If I happen to hate GoD(when it launches) as much as I do atm.. I know where I will be playing.
(If I stop posting for a while.. Its because I got suspended)
a) NCSoft is a company with a face and and physical address and people can sue it if it uses illegal means to defend against bot software. Your basement private server isn't
b) the cutting edge bots (& radars) aren't even available for your basement private server. Cause the bot (radar) coder can't afford to customize his software for 2309348290384093284 illegal servers and hope he/she sells a license to people that don't even want to freakin pay for the game.
Creec is right on both points, ykara you're dreaming if you think it's not possible to cheat on private servers.. go talk in vent with some ppl really lol..
let me quote myself here:
hate to say it but the real hackers/programmers know their way around that, those from one program even made it working on RU OFF for their premium users beating Frost like it doesn't exist and that is way more aggressive then GameGuard..
as long as people are willing to pay to cheat it's profitable enough for hackers to try to **** accounts, exploit game bugs & create prog's. and this applies to any game not just Lineage2.
a) NCSoft is a company with a face and and physical address and people can sue it if it uses illegal means to defend against bot software. Your basement private server isn't
b) the cutting edge bots (& radars) aren't even available for your basement private server. Cause the bot (radar) coder can't afford to customize his software for 2309348290384093284 illegal servers and hope he/she sells a license to people that don't even want to freakin pay for the game.
a) Illegal means killing a client and banning the account? No they are not.
b) Your "cutting edge" theory is the same M$ used to talk about Linux.. but now... take a wild guess where most .. and where most of those tools are developed.. *HINT* local private server for Dev.
@ Draecke.. I know exactly who... it's not hard. :)
a) Illegal means killing a client and banning the account? No they are not.
b) Your "cutting edge" theory is the same M$ used to talk about Linux.. but now... take a wild guess where most .. and where most of those tools are developed.. *HINT* local private server for Dev.
@ Draecke.. I know exactly who... it's not hard. :)
There are legal ways to scan the user's computer and there are illegal ways to scan the user's computer. Frost for example is quite illegal outside of Russia. Notifying NCSoft (or basement_illegal_server_op) what processes you have running in your memory space is also quite illegal.
You 're just talking gibberish, go develop a lineage 2 bot on a linux box in your basement then. Ohwaitaminute, that's completely irrelevant to what I said ... what I said is that most bots/radar software costs money. The developers charge you for using the bot/radar. And most don't have the time to customize their software for n private servers guess why? Cause they don't get any sales. The cracked chinese bots you find around the net a) will get you instabanned here too and b) barely work. What that has to do with linux and your basement devel I m not sure I understand. But thanks for sharing. Here's a cookie.
There are legal ways to scan the user's computer and there are illegal ways to scan the user's computer. Frost for example is quite illegal outside of Russia. Notifying NCSoft (or basement_illegal_server_op) what processes you have running in your memory space is also quite illegal.
You 're just talking gibberish, go develop a lineage 2 bot on a linux box in your basement then. Ohwaitaminute, that's completely irrelevant to what I said ... what I said is that most bots/radar software costs money. The developers charge you for using the bot/radar. And most don't have the time to customize their software for n private servers guess why? Cause they don't get any sales. The cracked chinese bots you find around the net a) will get you instabanned here too and b) barely work. What that has to do with linux and your basement devel I m not sure I understand. But thanks for sharing. Here's a cookie.
What's there to customize if the files are the same as official?
And you keep forgetting.. that most "customization" isn't done by initial dev. Instaban on cracked bots? Exactly the same instaban as non-cracked. That only depends on GMs.. if they are willing or not..
What's there to customize if the files are the same as official?
And you keep forgetting.. that most "customization" isn't done by initial dev. Instaban on cracked bots? Exactly the same instaban as non-cracked. That only depends on GMs.. if they are willing or not..
First of all private servers run without gameguard
Second of all all private servers modify AT LEAST 4 files in your /system folder to allow you to connect to their services, files the radars also use (caveat being emulated servers aka java aka worthless)
Thirdly all those cracked bots you find on the internet will get you a gameguard warning email with 100% certainty and I'd wager a ban with 80% certainty. Because these bots are detectable by the server without much GM effort.
And no there are radar aps out there that double up as bots and they don't get you instabanned, you need to be found to be botting to get banned because they interact differently with the client than all those older chinese bots you find and are therefore not detectable by the server. These aps you won't find for free on the internet. And they don't work at any except maybe 3-4 big private servers. Cause the develloper *yeah you guessed it* can actually make money selling the ap to these people. The develloper doesn't give a **** about basementL2whateversupercoolnewserver cause .... you guessed it none of the scrubs that play there will pay him $10/month to use his bot.
You, my friend.. are way off... but I'm not going to be the one enlightning you..
Just a FYI... NCSoft or it's subsidiaries.. keep "losing" a CD with official server files. How.. I don't know.. but I would inspect every employee and all franchisees.. but that's me.. paranoid.. That "CD".. is almost free to download. Java and C# still exist.. true.. but I'm not going to lose time with those.
You, my friend.. are way off... but I'm not going to be the one enlightning you..
Just a FYI... NCSoft or it's subsidiaries.. keep "losing" a CD with official server files. How.. I don't know.. but I would inspect every employee and all franchisees.. but that's me.. paranoid.. That "CD".. is almost free to download. Java and C# still exist.. true.. but I'm not going to lose time with those.
The last "lost" CD was lost by innova, and it wasn't that recent a CD. Rest is modded, there's a pretty big community that mods l2off files, and charges a hefty penny for their work ... but that, again, is completely irrelevant to what I said.
I read these forums allot, and have been for a long time, I am not a big fan of posting... however I have created an account just to reply to this.
PLEASE NCsoft I beg you release us from Game Guard's torturous claws.
Back when GG disabling was not frowned upon, I disabled it. My client ran so smoothly, barely ever lag spiking or long gatekeeper loads....
With my below today's average standard PC i was able to have on up to 3 clients with no lag spikes whatsoever. I was able to walk in a town and enjoy the scenery. I was not getting L2bin crit errors, the game would start allot faster too.
Once i heard we have to have GG actif, I of course enabled it. I now cannot have more then 1 client up with no lag. If i choose to have ONE buffpet Xp becomes agonising, particularly in some areas like Dragon valley, Giant's cave or other populated Xp areas. I let my 3rd account go inactive because i simply cannot use it and enjoy the game.
As Diego stated, it adds no benefit. Cheaters are rampaging, accounts being hacked/stolen, 3rd party programs make more $$ then NCsoft, and we, the legit players, suffer from this pile of **** running on our computers.
Can we PLEASE have something else for security? Like, i don't know, something detecting 3rd party software and doesnt ruin gameplay?
I am a mage, while I can do fine with my EE alone I would really like to have my Warcryer subbed BD again.
I read these forums allot, and have been for a long time, I am not a big fan of posting... however I have created an account just to reply to this.
PLEASE NCsoft I beg you release us from Game Guard's torturous claws.
Back when GG disabling was not frowned upon, I disabled it. My client ran so smoothly, barely ever lag spiking or long gatekeeper loads....
With my below today's average standard PC i was able to have on up to 3 clients with no lag spikes whatsoever. I was able to walk in a town and enjoy the scenery. I was not getting L2bin crit errors, the game would start allot faster too.
Once i heard we have to have GG actif, I of course enabled it. I now cannot have more then 1 client up with no lag. If i choose to have ONE buffpet Xp becomes agonising, particularly in some areas like Dragon valley, Giant's cave or other populated Xp areas. I let my 3rd account go inactive because i simply cannot use it and enjoy the game.
As Diego stated, it adds no benefit. Cheaters are rampaging, accounts being hacked/stolen, 3rd party programs make more $$ then NCsoft, and we, the legit players, suffer from this pile of **** running on our computers.
Can we PLEASE have something else for security? Like, i don't know, something detecting 3rd party software and doesnt ruin gameplay?
I am a mage, while I can do fine with my EE alone I would really like to have my Warcryer subbed BD again.
My PC is also 3years old, and it was only medium-spec when I built it. The only upgrades I gave it were the SSD drive and a new gfx card cos my old one broke (new one is, again, middle range only and is already 1.5 yrs old now).
I can still 3 box, and sometimes even 4box if I close everything else on my desktop.
Cheaters are hard to block *completely* because there is no all-encompassing solution to blocking them, so it becomes a cat and mouse game between the cheat program maker and NCSoft, usually the cheat maker wins because NCSoft cannot make changes nearly as frequently as the cheat maker can.
Account hackings happen due to several things *outside* of NCSoft's control:
- Account sharing
- keyloggers from "cracked" bots/cheats
- emails or computer hacked and it contained passwords
Gameguard (nProtect is part of gameguard) protects information sent to and from your computer between the game client and the server, everything outside of that scope is not their responsibility.
There are several solutions that MMORPGs can take to greatly increase security against both bots and account hackings:
- RSA authenticator (like WoW) unique to your account, this ensures that the person logging in can only log in if they have the keychain. CONS: if the authenticator breaks... you're stuck until you get a new one :P
- SMS passphrase on login. An extra step when logging in, where you need to input a passphrase sent via SMS everytime you log in (NCSoft Korea has this). CONS: Cannot easily implement this in NCWest because of the extreme variety of countries players of the game come from).
- optionally lock your client to a certain IP, this can be changed in your master account, but only allowed a limited # of changes per day (say 5). To have greater security, set your master account password different from any of your game accounts....
With Goddess of Destruction (in Korea), when you choose a character to login, the client ask you a 6 digit code. You choose your code when you log in for the first time, and it will ask you each time you log a character. You have to use a UI keyboard to enter the code, with the mouse, so you can't be keylogged.
It's a nice system agaist account thiefs, but donno if it's usefull against botters. And we still don't know if they will implement this system for US/EU servers.
About Gameguard, sure it's a problem, i have "gameguard errors" pretty often and it's really annoying.
NCsoft should bulid in a simple process monitor instead of GG. Just let someone at NCstaff keep update of known third party programs and their process names/PIDs and poll for that processes every 30 second. It takes no performace what so ever from the client session and can be updated by a small file at every new logon.
If the process is detected, the user is logged of. :)
I wrote that code in .NET for another work related task and its sooo easy to do. Question is if they want to ;)
PID's are assigned by the OS itself once a program establishes a new process to be handled by the CPU. Each time a program does that, the process it hangs on receive a new PID, which may or may not be the same all the time.
Otherwise, yes they could find out the names of the process. But it is really easy to go around this, like just changing the name of the executable file or some of it's structures.
The only safe way to do that is finding how the 3rd party programs hook into the client and it's connection with the servers and block that way of hooking. That isn't that simple, especially when your company has a limited staff for too many tasks and it's under a major foreign company with different directives...
NCsoft should bulid in a simple process monitor instead of GG. Just let someone at NCstaff keep update of known third party programs and their process names/PIDs and poll for that processes every 30 second. It takes no performace what so ever from the client session and can be updated by a small file at every new logon.
If the process is detected, the user is logged of. :)
I wrote that code in .NET for another work related task and its sooo easy to do. Question is if they want to ;)
Problem 1:
If you download a list of 'bad' processes you wish to shutdown, the cheaters can just **** that list so that it's allowed or change the program signature to avoid detection
Problem 2:
If you send program signatures to a server to test against a list of known 'bad' programs, this list will be updated as often as possible. But it's against the law in many places including the states as it includes details about the person's system which may include personal details.
With Goddess of Destruction (in Korea), when you choose a character to login, the client ask you a 6 digit code. You choose your code when you log in for the first time, and it will ask you each time you log a character. You have to use a UI keyboard to enter the code, with the mouse, so you can't be keylogged.
We still don't know if it's a feature only for Koreans, where most of players plays from cybercafe :)
It's a nice system agaist account thiefs, but donno if it's usefull against botters.
No point asking if it's useful against botters since it's not designed for it. When I use a knife to cut vegetables, I don't really wonder if it's efficient to play on a piano :P
About Gameguard, sure it's a problem, i have "gameguard errors" pretty often and it's really annoying.
Most of GG problems come from the user, and I'm sad to tell you I don't get any gameguard errors :)