If you don't take Double Casting then you can keep Empowering Echo that gives you 25% more magic attack for 20 minutes for 35% more mp consumption !
And Double Casting skill at level 99 gives :
Lv.4 – Buff Skill
All four elemental Stances are activated simultaneously, and you can cast multiple elemental spells at once for 30 seconds. Also, decreases MP Consumption by 80% and magic skill reuse time by 20%.
******
So : Permanent 25 % more magic attack (with a recharger you will have no problems) or some silly skill for 30 seconds ?
And you also lose :
Arcane Roar Lv.1 - Passive Skill
Increases resistance to Fire, Water, Wind or Earth damage by 5 and M. Atk. by 3%.
If you don't take Double Casting then you can keep Empowering Echo that gives you 25% more magic attack for 20 minutes for 35% more mp consumption !
And Double Casting skill at level 99 gives :
Lv.4 – Buff Skill
All four elemental Stances are activated simultaneously, and you can cast multiple elemental spells at once for 30 seconds. Also, decreases MP Consumption by 80% and magic skill reuse time by 20%.
******
So : Permanent 25 % more magic attack (with a recharger you will have no problems) or some silly skill for 30 seconds ?
And you also lose :
Arcane Roar Lv.1 - Passive Skill
Increases resistance to Fire, Water, Wind or Earth damage by 5 and M. Atk. by 3%.
If you get Double Casting.
Ok, i think you didn´t understand how double casting works.
DOUBLE - CASTING. You can cast 2 spells at same time. Why do you want 25% more m.atk when you can cast 2 spells (damage x2, 100% more damage)?
also empowering echo raises your mana comsumption, while double casting decreases it by 80% and gives more skill recycle.
In a PVP, the healer is not thinking to recharge the wizard, just to heal. As a healer, I'd prefer to have the my mage be doing 2x damage for 30 seconds leaving me to just heal for 30 seconds rather than do only 25% damage using 35% more MP making me recharge AND heal.
Maybe in PVE the old skill is better, but PVP the double casting is much MUCH better.
In a PVP, the healer is not thinking to recharge the wizard, just to heal. As a healer, I'd prefer to have the my mage be doing 2x damage for 30 seconds leaving me to just heal for 30 seconds rather than do only 25% damage using 35% more MP making me recharge AND heal.
Maybe in PVE the old skill is better, but PVP the double casting is much MUCH better.
Lol, maybe in a short 1 vs 1 the new one is doing well, but for mass pvp/sieges/tw the old one is much much better.
1. In 360 seconds with double casting i use 60 seconds of 100% damage + 300 seconds of normal attack.
2. In 360 seconds with empowering echo i make 360 seconds of 25% more damage.
1. Lets assume i need minimum 5 seconds to hit a monster 2 times.
So in 60 seconds i hit him 24 times for 100% more damage.
2. In 360 seconds i hit him for 144 times for 25% more damage.
If damage is 1000 :
1. I do 168 000 damage [48 000 ( 24 X 2000 ) + 300 seconds of normal attack 120 000 (120 x 1000)]
2. I do 180 000 damage. ( 144 X 1250 ) + 3% from M. Atk. from Arcane Roar. (185 400)
Do you really think koreans are stupid?Or they didn't think about that?Double casting is an ultimate skill that separates a pro nuker from a newbie one.So think about it(always imo :) )
1. In 360 seconds with double casting i use 60 seconds of 100% damage.
2. In 360 seconds with empowering echo i make 360 seconds of 25% more damage.
1. Lets assume i need minimum 5 seconds to hit a monster 2 times.
So in 60 seconds i hit him 120 times for 100% more damage.
2. In 360 seconds i hit him for 720 times for 25% more damage.
If damage is 1000 :
1. I do 540 000 [240 000 ( 120 X 2000 ) + 300 seconds of normal attack 300 000 (1000 x 300)]
2. I do 900 000 damage. ( 720 X 1250 )
PROVEN ! Empowering echo is overpowered !
OMG... run your math again because my eyes bleed how flawed it is. Also you should include 20% magic crit chance(lets assume it's caped). The very end is burst dmg in pvp. Dual casting > emp echo all the way.
1. In 360 seconds with double casting i use 60 seconds of 100% damage + 300 seconds of normal attack.
2. In 360 seconds with empowering echo i make 360 seconds of 25% more damage.
1. Lets assume i need minimum 5 seconds to hit a monster 2 times.
So in 60 seconds i hit him 24 times for 100% more damage.
2. In 360 seconds i hit him for 720 times for 25% more damage.
If damage is 1000 :
1. I do 348 000 [48 000 ( 20 X 2000 ) + 300 seconds of normal attack 300 000 (1000 x 300)]
2. I do 900 000 damage. ( 720 X 1250 )
Do you really think koreans are stupid?Or they didn't think about that?Double casting is an ultimate skill that separates a pro nuker from a newbie one.So think about it(always imo :) )
ofc they are,go check all healers with old light armor mastery...they have almost max c speed even with light armor and duals hp lol
OMG... run your math again because my eyes bleed how flawed it is. Also you should include 20% magic crit chance(lets assume it's caped). The very end is burst dmg in pvp. Dual casting > emp echo all the way.
Are You Blind ? Check the Math Again ! It was redone. You quoted some old info.
1. In 360 seconds with double casting i use 60 seconds of 100% damage + 300 seconds of normal attack.
2. In 360 seconds with empowering echo i make 360 seconds of 25% more damage.
1. Lets assume i need minimum 5 seconds to hit a monster 2 times.
So in 60 seconds i hit him 24 times for 100% more damage.
2. In 360 seconds i hit him for 144 times for 25% more damage.
If damage is 1000 :
1. I do 168 000 damage [48 000 ( 24 X 2000 ) + 300 seconds of normal attack 120 000 (120 x 1000)]
2. I do 180 000 damage. ( 144 X 1250 ) + 3% from M. Atk. from Arcane Roar. (185 400)
You forget that mitigating normal damage is much easier than burst damage cause most chars don't have enough M def to take 2 spells per second.
While having empowering echo is playing on the safe side, having double cast will ALWAYS give you an edge for those 30 seconds, NO MATTER the situation.
And having the mp comsumption buff means this skill is VERY benefitial on solo, and it saves your healer more MP on party. It can be also chained with long reuse skills to get the best advantage.
You also forget that people can now evade magical skills, so it's better to land a freaking powerful nuke over and over at a faster rate to be more sucessful.
OP seems to think that the 25% M. Atk increase from empowering echo will result in 25% increased damage. Sorry OP, you're wrong.
And thats the point. OP forgot to consider important thing like element system. So practicaly 25% more m. attack give u about ~10% more damage, also consider that mass pvp IS NOT a grind. On pvp u have to kill ur enemy asap doesn't matter if its mass pvp or 1 vs 1. And double casting can help u in that, because u can skill spam the enemy and it can decrease the chance to get healed by his healer. Thats the point, trust me that every 4'th skill was designed to be better than 2/3 class one.
And thats the point. OP forgot to consider important thing like element system. So practicaly 25% more m. attack give u about ~10% more damage, also consider that mass pvp IS NOT a grind. On pvp u have to kill ur enemy asap doesn't matter if its mass pvp or 1 vs 1. And double casting can help u in that, because u can skill spam the enemy and it can decrease the chance to get healed by his healer. Thats the point, trust me that every 4'th skill was designed to be better than 2/3 class one.
It's not because of the element system.
It's because Matk is on a logarithmic calculation.
25% matk does not equal 25% more damage. Just as Empower gives 75% more matk, does not give 75% more damage.
double casting is clearly superior to empowering echo. The only reason empower echo was good for SHs is because it allows them to 1 or 2 shot people. Reducing your needed shot to kill someone by 1 was a big deal.
25% more matk is exactly equal to 5% extra damage.
no it's sqrt(1.25)=1.118 so its 11.8% more damage
as of the topic, i will also leave arcane power in, since now all the nukes return hp (with buffs of course) i don't care about small hp drain.
those new skills may be good at 99 but at 85 they are useless. crit is too random to rely upon and double casting ignores (or divides by 4 and splits 4 way, i don't know) weapon attribute so its damage is 2 times smaller. useless...
as of the topic, i will also leave arcane power in, since now all the nukes return hp (with buffs of course) i don't care about small hp drain.
those new skills may be good at 99 but at 85 they are useless. crit is too random to rely upon and double casting ignores (or divides by 4 and splits 4 way, i don't know) weapon attribute so its damage is 2 times smaller. useless...
Maybe, but only if the character is completely unbuffed. However add empower, CoV, zerker, dance of mystic (or the enchanter equivlant versions) and the difference becomes minuscule.
I can tell you from experience that double casting is worth taking. There are some skill(s) that are worth keeping, but empowering echo is not one of them.
I R kamael, thank you for empowering echo buff =). Emp echo is superior for PVE if you keep toggle. PVP/Oly you will not survive without double cast/wiz spirit. Ohh, I forgot to mention. If you have not PVP'd in this patch you will quickly learn that even in mass PVP you need BURST dmg. Healer's sustainability is ******ed. A Pay To Win +15 blessed mage weapon + Emp Echo + toggle will be your only option if you go that route.
+25% M.attk is not 25% more damage, it is ~11.8% more damage. Likewise +3% M.attk is ~1.49% more damage. Essentially, you're looking at ~13.5% more damage costing 35% more MP.
Double casting is not "double damage". Understand that each Feoh Wizards are different from 3rd class nukers. You're not spamming the same skill (hurricane, prominence, deathspike, etc.) and using vortex/slug every now and then, you're using very different skills with different powers, speeds and reuse times and only one of them, and the skill with the longest reuse, has the "chance" to stun. Calculating your DPS with this skill running with -20% reuse, that is if some of you even make it to level 99, is going to be more than the simple arithmetic some of you presented earlier.
Looking at just "double casting has a 180sec reuse vs a permanent damage boost" is a very flaw statement. First simply know that 180 is the "base" time, considering your average passives and full Iss Enchanter buffs with wizard's harmony you have -25%, -20%, and -10% going from 180 to 109 seconds.
Also looking at practical uses. Imagine using these two skills in PvE and PvP and yes both! Because you're not going to do any PvPing if you don't PvE first and if you're ineffecient at PvE you'll find yourself dead in PvP rather quickly. Factor not just the damage difference over time, but your down time as well. You have a constant 35% MP drain vs a temporary 80% MP reduction to worry about as well.
Lastly, look not at damage but another benefit to M.attk, Debuff land rates. The more M.attk you have the better your curses land. Keep that in mind too.
Now to the few of you have the ability to read and process what I put above, good luck trying to figure out which is better to use.
+25% M.attk is not 25% more damage, it is ~11.8% more damage. Likewise +3% M.attk is ~1.49% more damage. Essentially, you're looking at ~13.5% more damage costing 35% more MP.
Double casting is not "double damage". Understand that each Feoh Wizards are different from 3rd class nukers. You're not spamming the same skill (hurricane, prominence, deathspike, etc.) and using vortex/slug every now and then, you're using very different skills with different powers, speeds and reuse times and only one of them, and the skill with the longest reuse, has the "chance" to stun. Calculating your DPS with this skill running with -20% reuse, that is if some of you even make it to level 99, is going to be more than the simple arithmetic some of you presented earlier.
Looking at just "double casting has a 180sec reuse vs a permanent damage boost" is a very flaw statement. First simply know that 180 is the "base" time, considering your average passives and full Iss Enchanter buffs with wizard's harmony you have -25%, -20%, and -10% going from 180 to 109 seconds.
Also looking at practical uses. Imagine using these two skills in PvE and PvP and yes both! Because you're not going to do any PvPing if you don't PvE first and if you're ineffecient at PvE you'll find yourself dead in PvP rather quickly. Factor not just the damage difference over time, but your down time as well. You have a constant 35% MP drain vs a temporary 80% MP reduction to worry about as well.
Lastly, look not at damage but another benefit to M.attk, Debuff land rates. The more M.attk you have the better your curses land. Keep that in mind too.
Now to the few of you have the ability to read and process what I put above, good luck trying to figure out which is better to use.
Best post I have seen on this subject.
Its 2 different play styles, I am not sure you can call one build better than the other.
Actually it's OPed. My friend have 21k m atk (without clan skills,only immortal robe set + apoc wepSA acumen, and the dyes he bought from the NPC). Imagine this with all the hats, legendary dyes, augments, clan skills etc etc. Now I'm taking around 6k normal nuke and 16k crit. Also those mages with their skill for mp drain instead of hp. I think it's bugged also cuz i'm making him 8k dmg , 2k from tat are reflected back to me, 2k drain from his mp and the rest 4k dissappear. it writes that ONLY SOME % of the dmg he take will be drained from mp BUT IT DOES THE WHOLE DMG + reflect + some of the dmg dissappear.. just test it with some1 and u'll see. Now while mages (awakened spellhower with emp echo and the other toogle sill frm 3rd class) are hitting 6-7k ... crits 16-18k with insane cast, an archer for example is making them 5k , crit 10k. What's the point of beeing archer when u made lower dmg tham those mages and you are making ur skills slower than mages. No balance at all? Make it at least that way higher dmg slow cast, faster cast low dmg. It's rly OPed. I'm speaking on full buff. And with that wind attr they just keep pushing and intterupting ur skills all the time at the end u die without even hitting them exept if u surprise them in the back.
It is overpowered, there are a few things you can build that are overpowered and this perticullar build is pretty pro. The healer had an edge for a bit with being able to keep the light armor mastery, until nCsoft reconized this was an unfair advantage. other ones are, awakening bd and sws a certain way make that build the best for enchanters. taking a kameal and awaking as a summoner to keep final form as a sumoner. there are so many diferent combinations to find that will give you an edge. Is this normal game play as intented or is a fix planned in the future is yet to be seen:eek:.
a summoner to keep final form as a sumoner. there are so many diferent combinations to find that will give you an edge.
Thing is kamael dont KEEP their final form, they get a NEW final form that looks exactly like the last one, with diferent stats. This was intended from the beggining and won't change for along time since this skill is a racial skill, not a 3rd class skill.
It is overpowered, there are a few things you can build that are overpowered and this perticullar build is pretty pro. The healer had an edge for a bit with being able to keep the light armor mastery, until nCsoft reconized this was an unfair advantage. other ones are, awakening bd and sws a certain way make that build the best for enchanters. taking a kameal and awaking as a summoner to keep final form as a sumoner. there are so many diferent combinations to find that will give you an edge. Is this normal game play as intented or is a fix planned in the future is yet to be seen:eek:.
How to awaken a BD or Sws to make it best for enchanters ?
The thing is that with 25% increase in m atk dmg increases only by 6%! By just knowing this it's obvious that double casting is much superior skill dmg vise.
Do you really think koreans are stupid?Or they didn't think about that?Double casting is an ultimate skill that separates a pro nuker from a newbie one.So think about it(always imo :) )
ofc they are, these debuffs from stances land so bad in pvp so having solid 25% m attack more is so much better my friend has awakened mage and he regrets so much of taking that skill
about recharge - do not upgrade passive mana recharge and you will have no problems with mp
So for Sws don't take : Elemental Protection & Wizard's Harmony
Maybe even Horn Melody. So you keep Defense Motion or Battle Whisper
If you have more enchanters and have a specific party memebrs, you can benefit of the old buffs more. As you said one can keep motion of defense for best combos of the char itself...for example, on Oly you can buff horn melody from NPC so tecnically there you dont need ur own buff if u can keep motion of defense.
But keeping skills like these comes with a price: No randoms want you in party if you dont have wizard harmony or horn melod,etc and even clan will look at you funny.
The other day i had a prophet-turned-iss enchanter for teredor..and he didnt have wizard harmony cause he kept all his old resists. That hurts a mage, they cannot use their full potential and so he was kicked.
These combos work..IF you have a plan to develop the char somehow from the start.
There was also 2 magical combo dances that you could keep that stack with warrirors harmony, but you must not learn wizard harmony (or it was knights, dont recall)
Because INT doesn't directly increase debuff land rate. M.attk does and INT increases m.attk. But you can continue thinking that WIT does since it hurts no one but you.
If you have more enchanters and have a specific party memebrs, you can benefit of the old buffs more. As you said one can keep motion of defense for best combos of the char itself...for example, on Oly you can buff horn melody from NPC so tecnically there you dont need ur own buff if u can keep motion of defense.
But keeping skills like these comes with a price: No randoms want you in party if you dont have wizard harmony or horn melod,etc and even clan will look at you funny.
The other day i had a prophet-turned-iss enchanter for teredor..and he didnt have wizard harmony cause he kept all his old resists. That hurts a mage, they cannot use their full potential and so he was kicked.
These combos work..IF you have a plan to develop the char somehow from the start.
There was also 2 magical combo dances that you could keep that stack with warrirors harmony, but you must not learn wizard harmony (or it was knights, dont recall)
Knight's Harmony replaces only dance of the Warrior, Rhythm of Combat, Song of Earth.
Elemental Protection is useless for SWS. With normal Song of Elemental you get the same 30 in all and extra you still keep : Song of Flame Guard, Song of Storm Guard. ( so in total : 60 wind and 60 fire, 30 water, 30 earth )
If you get Horn Melody from someone else then Battle Whisper gives (P. Atk. by 15%, Critical Damage by 10%, and Atk. Spd. by 10%)
The other day i had a prophet-turned-iss enchanter for teredor..and he didnt have wizard harmony cause he kept all his old resists. That hurts a mage, they cannot use their full potential and so he was kicked.
Are you sure about this?
As I checked on russian PTS the old resists were replaced only by Elemental Protection. NCSoft's patch notes also state the same.
Are you sure about this?
As I checked on russian PTS the old resists were replaced only by Elemental Protection. NCSoft's patch notes also state the same.
Actually im not sure at all, the PP dude was slow as hell (to communicate and buff) and more than 1 person asked for wiz harmony and he said he couldn't give (he was giving war harmony to mages) cause he didn't have, and we asked why he doesn't learn (although i knew the answer to it) and he said he looses resists if he learns wiz harmony. Can't garantee it is like this but its strange he didnt have it to begin with.
But i can garantee that he was buffing me with resist fire/water etc AND hieorphant's Elemental protection.
Actually im not sure at all, the PP dude was slow as hell (to communicate and buff) and more than 1 person asked for wiz harmony and he said he couldn't give (he was giving war harmony to mages) cause he didn't have, and we asked why he doesn't learn (although i knew the answer to it) and he said he looses resists if he learns wiz harmony. Can't garantee it is like this but its strange he didnt have it to begin with.
But i can garantee that he was buffing me with resist fire/water etc AND hieorphant's Elemental protection.
Ok. Thanks for clarification :)