This is probalby another cultural difference.
I hear so many qq'ing and thinking rerolling from PP to WC or another..
My reply is just to give you a different point of view.. so don't tackle.
Koreans don't expect PP to fight. They expect them to buff every 20 min and constantly watch the matching system for continous party hunt.
They are often the party leaders and they make sure the party never stops for hunting. They are responsible for replacement of the party member so that the party never stops hunting unless taking break.
We expect them to wear robes with Wit and casting option with WIT dye.
Also we expect them to use acumen weapon of any kind with BSS.
Every one will laugh if she/he brings dual sword or any kinds of meelee weapon to fight also.. They are not just made for that. They are made to others get stronger.
We know orcs only have advantage of getting the buff done faster when the party starts. Once hunt begins, well trained PP never let buff run out.
Orcs make up the lack in buff difference in party with their physical hunting ability, but it's just not as same of those DD's. We don't even want the WC to fight. We don't discreminate PP and WC although we prefer PP. We want buffer to keep the party going, not attacking the mobs with rest of the dd's.
However, If some of you still think PP's buff is not much different than that of those orcs.. you still don't know L2.
WE have nick name for Lineage 2 in Korea. It's called 'Buffneage.' Buff makes the game totally different.
And many of you at high level surprisingly don't know this either because you guys are just used to play this way. Problem is you don't admit what you don't know. I often see too many box that you guys are in that you guys don't even know that you are in. Put aside your ego.
Yes, Orc buff got improved much better than before, but they are not just on same level to compare. There's reason when most of us prefers the PP in party. I'm not saying we are better, we just have more experience on running smooth party in general. You guys are just used to play in constant party with whom you know with.. there's major difference.
And again, please don't say yet again what and how Koreans do has anything to do with us or we do better like statement. We are playing same game and in most cases we do what you do and you do what we do because it is same game we play.
Don't ever bring up a reply saying you guys are better or more efficent.. or whatever.. you don't know how we do it. I always crack up whenever I see such a reply. How someone is so talented to compare things that one don't have experience with..
I know how you do it from past couple months of experience in NA server.
I can compare, you can't. Put aside your ego for a moment.
From experience on Chronos and Bartz, you guys don't really utilize the matching system thus I don't see continuous party going on.
You guys only want constant party with people you know and are comfortable only. So only few gets better and better yet the others who can't find party never gets to learn the role in the party. L2 was never a solo game although a lot does.
Our hunting party often lasts days with continously replaced new members. Each player might play at least one hour to couple hours, but party doesn't stop for days.
I often see too many times that people in NA just leaving the party w/o any regards of other party member. It's just a manner to wait until the replacement is available so that the rest of them who doens't leave don't have to suffer waiting for a replacement. If you have to go, talk to the leader half an hour or even an hour before you go so that the leader can find a replamcement for you. DOnt just leave and make the rest of the party member hanging.. If you don't care about others,, go play your playstation or xbox or something..
Some stated and blamed Koreans for playing too many PP for getting it nurfed. We don't think she got nurfed because we never expected them to fight. We don't expect them to heal us. We expect them to stay out of immediate danger and aid the party by keeping the necessary buff.
We expect them to constantly monitor our buff and buff us whenever someone gets buff stonlen or die or etc.. ORc's just can't keep up. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, you don't know real pvp nor even PvE. so just keep your mouth shut. Ofcourse OL shines on massive PVP or siege, but I'm not talking about that so don't get wrong idea. OL and WC is also whole another issue.
I never have and neer will say Koreans are better so don't even bring that up here also.
However, I was able to see from both side. And I know we are very alike with few twicks. So what we do efficently, you can do to.
MANY OF U claim you guys do better and more efficiently... HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN U DON"T KNOW HOW WE DO IT? From few poor video clips on youtube?? give me a break...
90% of the time is solo until 85, PPs don't have change against WC vamp nuke + infinity mana.
I don't know how much party match works in korea, but here I never saw it working on shilen, and my brother too in magmeld. We do solo all the time with our boxes so far in overcrowded spots and too many ks.
I thought it would work as well as dungeon finder in WoW, or something close to this. Actually, in WoW you can play in group 100% of the time if you want, since level 10, different of L2 that is solo(with a boxed toon many times) almost all the time until 85+.
Don't play with words. The system has the potentials to work but the 1st thing people do is to close "that annoying button". So far I got invited only 2 times from the matching system. I think when people learn to use to use it it will actually start working "as intended".
@Destructor
You mention 2 things: Party matching system and party set up (how useful is pp).
Sure you have party matching system working almost perfect as you described.
But when it comes to pp or wc or ol then you need make a table with +/- . Things that you mentioned about PP can be done by wc/ol also (about finding replacer etc).
Lets not talk about pvp because there will be chaos for what is best to have in your party. Lets try make a comparison for pve. (Except for the fact that people are greedy and want to have a wc box in their party for more loots.)
The most important for WC is VR
The most important for OL is good heals/debuffs and can be used for mage party also.
PP has defensive buffs, resists that wc/ol don't have.
The reason the matching system was never really used much is probably becuase we do more gank pvp in North American/European servers. We also seem to play more clan oriented than Koreans.
But thanks for sounding like you are on a high horse once again destructor. Maybe its your lack of english that makes you sound like a moron, but from just reading it seems you are just talking out of your ***.
If everyone in NA/EU wanted to hold hands and have pp's buff everyone, we would be playing a completely different game.
Why do you think Korean developers changed Enchanters to seem more like NA/EU orc buffer game play than "stand back look pretty girlfriend PP in Korea"?
thumbs down, smittie. dont go insulting the man. how do you know those parties in korea who keep going for days, dont invite from clan first? also how does it matter, if a gank pvp group was buffed by PP or by WC? neither of these will be in party during the PVP, due to ranger scripts targeting buffers and healers.
bt if you look closely, thats half destructors point - if we took Prophet more often in PVP, lost buffs (cancel stick, daggers, fists etc) wouldnt hardly be a problem for a well-played prophet.
bt if you look closely, thats half destructors point - if we took Prophet more often in PVP, lost buffs (cancel stick, daggers, fists etc) wouldnt hardly be a problem for a well-played prophet.
TLDR : Koreans use Party System that continuously summons new members to replace leaving ones unlike NA players. Prophet excells at rebuffing continuous "new" party member over that of WC who may or may not have the mana at the time for full rebuff since Korean parties run 24/7.
That seems to be it .. am I missing anything here?
I think the reason for this is that many who play lineage2 started to play on private servers which had very small population so pickup parties were not possible, and only the trusted groups of friends played together forming so called const parties.
now that we got a lot of newcomers, pickup parties are theoretically possible, but the problem is that those newcomers are in fact more private server players who came because official became free, so they share the very same methology of const parties.
personally i believe const parties conception is an abomination and is what will kill this game because there is no new blood - whoever completely new comes to this game will soon realise he is nothing without either boxed support or a const party which he is unable to get into since he lacks game experience and has no outgame friends who are willing to play it as well to form a const party.
constant parties exist because they are efficient. If you played in C1/C2 your day consisted of shouting for a PP, going to LOA, finding a prophet who a) demanded money to party or b) partied then buffed and afked for 20 minutes or c) quit party mid exp to go sell buffs at entrance/FG. From that people started boxing and forming constant parties they shared common playing hours with so they wouldn't have to login and waste 2 hours shouting. Then as the game evolved and parties got more and more specialized it paid to have small groups (parties) within the clan structure where each player knew the other well, knew how they played, what to expect of them, what they would do in specific situations. It worked both for PVE and more importantly for PVP and no, constant parties were started here in retail not private servers.
VR > anything PP has to offer for PvE. Counter Crit provides insane damage but won't keep you up forever.
Active WC giving Great Fury is also a huge boost, while PP's Counter Crit is just a buff.
PP might have the time to control the parties in Korea, but that's cause all he does during playing, is buffing up every 20mins, or rebuffing someone who died, if he doesn't have Nobl Blessing.
I wanna point out here, that i'm not saying that active PPs are slackers, i'm saying that this is the max potential of this class. Yeah, PP has Root, Mana Burn, Erase, but who cares? Even if he's using duals to deal damage, a WC has Soul Cry, was else to say here?
PP absolutely can't solo, and yes, you can always search for a party, but playing with randoms, especially random supports and tanks is 70% of the time gross. Most randoms playing these vital parts of a party, end up being clueless, and can never take or understand advice, and you know where this leads right?
After walking/teleporting/whatever to your xp spot, they end up leaving, having wasted my precious time, and their precious time too, but they don't understand it.
Ppl here are always in a rush, and WC helps a party do things faster, hell, he even has Gate Chant.
Btw Party-Matching system's greatest thing is the instant teleport is provides to the replacing member. But now that people know this, they ofc abuse it.
Ppl join the party as replacements saying: "hey, i'm here for just 8%, then replace me again".
Thanks, but no thanks.
PS: After all, why main a class that heavily relies on other ppl, especially if you don't play with irl friends ? You never know what happens. Ofc you may end up having lots of friends. But you may also end up being unable to play when you want to play, and this imo is a huge drawback.
That's not true, Prophets/Hierophants can solo, just not as fast/efficiently as any other class can, and that's only because they're the only class that doesn't get any damage skills in those class stages ;)
90% of the time is solo until 85, PPs don't have change against WC vamp nuke + infinity mana.
I don't know how much party match works in korea, but here I never saw it working on shilen, and my brother too in magmeld. We do solo all the time with our boxes so far in overcrowded spots and too many ks.
I thought it would work as well as dungeon finder in WoW, or something close to this. Actually, in WoW you can play in group 100% of the time if you want, since level 10, different of L2 that is solo(with a boxed toon many times) almost all the time until 85+.
+1
1-40 solo quest
40-5x go solo or make half pt in cruma
5x-7x go solo(daily quest) or pt in toi
70+ spilt up a bit
so till nearly 70 you only have 2 spots for pt and howmany solo areas, how many(all till 75?) dailys are in solo area?
why daily like in hs only give questitem to the player who last hit? like this its also ksing in pt...
i liked it like old days as i played couble of years afo, as you at at least some more options with catas(rift)/gc/loa...or do i missed something which still exsist in god?
i disagree with some of you statments. I feel that most people try and find a replacment before leaving, however some people cant wait at times and that is life. But usually a person will say they have to go after this buff round look for a rep.
many people also use the pty matching system. Yes alot of people will pty with clannies first and then use it, but i dont feel like being clan/ally oriented is a bad thing. The main reason aside from pvp to have a clan in na is for friends and ptys.
VR > anything PP has to offer for PvE. Counter Crit provides insane damage but won't keep you up forever.
Active WC giving Great Fury is also a huge boost, while PP's Counter Crit is just a buff.
PP might have the time to control the parties in Korea, but that's cause all he does during playing, is buffing up every 20mins, or rebuffing someone who died, if he doesn't have Nobl Blessing.
I wanna point out here, that i'm not saying that active PPs are slackers, i'm saying that this is the max potential of this class. Yeah, PP has Root, Mana Burn, Erase, but who cares? Even if he's using duals to deal damage, a WC has Soul Cry, was else to say here?
PP absolutely can't solo, and yes, you can always search for a party, but playing with randoms, especially random supports and tanks is 70% of the time gross. Most randoms playing these vital parts of a party, end up being clueless, and can never take or understand advice, and you know where this leads right?
After walking/teleporting/whatever to your xp spot, they end up leaving, having wasted my precious time, and their precious time too, but they don't understand it.
Ppl here are always in a rush, and WC helps a party do things faster, hell, he even has Gate Chant.
Btw Party-Matching system's greatest thing is the instant teleport is provides to the replacing member. But now that people know this, they ofc abuse it.
Ppl join the party as replacements saying: "hey, i'm here for just 8%, then replace me again".
Thanks, but no thanks.
PS: After all, why main a class that heavily relies on other ppl, especially if you don't play with irl friends ? You never know what happens. Ofc you may end up having lots of friends. But you may also end up being unable to play when you want to play, and this imo is a huge drawback.
I have to react because there is lot of nonsense in your comment. VR> anything PP has for PVE? Really, lol? If you have BD in party you dont even need buffed VR while PP can in the same time greatly improve damage output by doubling criticals with CC and lowering p def of mobs by Piercing attack and Block shield. PP heals got improved in GoD and with battle heal I can give heals for almost 900 hp, 1700 hp in crits in no time which is good enough for every non awakened char while recharging mana by hitting mobs. With elemented dual and heavy set like Moirai dmg output isnt bad and is more than enough to solo. Even before GoD I could solo my PP to almost lvl 80. When I soloed in Den of evil, with self buffs I was killing mobs faster than some damage dealer classes with mentor buffs! Hell, I can even solo in swamp near dark elf village (on mobs that are white to me). How many other classes without external buffer can do this? So dont tell me that PP cant solo. Just incompetent PP cant do it.
constant parties exist because they are efficient. If you played in C1/C2 your day consisted of shouting for a PP, going to LOA, finding a prophet who a) demanded money to party or b) partied then buffed and afked for 20 minutes or c) quit party mid exp to go sell buffs at entrance/FG. From that people started boxing and forming constant parties they shared common playing hours with so they wouldn't have to login and waste 2 hours shouting. Then as the game evolved and parties got more and more specialized it paid to have small groups (parties) within the clan structure where each player knew the other well, knew how they played, what to expect of them, what they would do in specific situations. It worked both for PVE and more importantly for PVP and no, constant parties were started here in retail not private servers.
This sums it up.
I have to react because there is lot of nonsense in your comment. VR> anything PP has for PVE? Really, lol? If you have BD in party you dont even need buffed VR while PP can in the same time greatly improve damage output by doubling criticals with CC and lowering p def of mobs by Piercing attack and Block shield. PP heals got improved in GoD and with battle heal I can give heals for almost 900 hp, 1700 hp in crits in no time which is good enough for every non awakened char while recharging mana by hitting mobs. With elemented dual and heavy set like Moirai dmg output isnt bad and is more than enough to solo. Even before GoD I could solo my PP to almost lvl 80. When I soloed in Den of evil, with self buffs I was killing mobs faster than some damage dealer classes with mentor buffs! Hell, I can even solo in swamp near dark elf village (on mobs that are white to me). How many other classes without external buffer can do this? So dont tell me that PP cant solo. Just incompetent PP cant do it.
This is what I'm saying, when there's a will there's a way.
Prophets/Hierophants have a unique playstyle that will probably have most people roll their eyes, but some may actually enjoy it.
And the way a character is played is totally up to the person behind it!
TO ALL THOSE who say PP runs out of mana, has to stop party for buff and is lacking buffs you are talking out of your friggin &ss!
I've been in top floors of ToI for many many hours, i can buff party while they are hunting and when i have finished buffs resting afterwards it takes me on average 10-15 minutes to return to full mana and with this i can root/be sub healer until rebuffs are needed again.
ALSO
a PP can cast Mental Shield/resist bleed/resist poison but more importantly Mental Shield. I have won the members of my team 5 pvp battles with this buff, aswell as me rooting and word of fear.
I was also able to save a number of members when the Healer got stunned with Battle Healing etc etc but thats just the Healer being bad i guess (but the archers in ToI 11 stun random target or healer i believe). When your in a party up there or anywhere else for over an hour aswell who is going to Bless your HP/Mana AND which team do you think is going to come on top after an hour of play when it comes to general safety against pve/pvp.
The last paragraph a WC is NOT able to do.
whoever requires VR in a party with a BISHOP/CARDINAL is just plain lazy and just bad at there class and that is fact.
Magmeld is full of kids who need to grow up mainly...
destructor, how do you account for lack of VR buff ? last time i had a prophet in party, there was no such thing.
do you hope always to find an SE or EE or cardinal (who have taken it with pomanders) to keep this up ?
Typical party setting after GOD with us ..
(This is before awakening ofcourse..)
1 tanker with 2DD (or maze) or 3 DD, PP, SE or EE, Cardinal or EE, BD/SWS. (we rarely find a party w/o cardinal)
We love PP + SE combination. SE don't just stand there and rechard, they constanly debuff the mobs (they are often the busiest in party).
In party setting, lack of VR of PP don't matter.
Soloing is different story. And again, although a lot of us does in NA because the party system is not working here obviously.. L2 encourages party hunt..
the thing i do AGREE 100% is the fact that ppl need to start using party matching much more thant hey do now.. itd make things much easier for everybody
:cool:90% of the time is solo until 85, PPs don't have change against WC vamp nuke + infinity mana.
I don't know how much party match works in korea, but here I never saw it working on shilen, and my brother too in magmeld. We do solo all the time with our boxes so far in overcrowded spots and too many ks.
I thought it would work as well as dungeon finder in WoW, or something close to this. Actually, in WoW you can play in group 100% of the time if you want, since level 10, different of L2 that is solo(with a boxed toon many times) almost all the time until 85+.
Soloing is different than party hunt my friend. Also.. Soloing is not recommended method of playing L2 alothough a lot does in NA. Obviously party matching system is not working in NA as it was intened, and that's why I wanted to share an opinion from my experience how to get it work..
By the way, PP running out of mana? especially on soloing? what are you doing with your pp.. :D
We always have at least one recharge healer and a cardinal. Often PP don't need recharge if you know how to use the toon. Running out of mana? it's due to poor managing.. not due to the characteristic of the toon.
Koreans play PP and SH in duo, I think there is a lot we missing :D
Yes, I'm just talking about PP here, but there's a lot more to talk about if I go in detail. Remeber, party doesn't work unless all cooperate..
PP+SE .. shines..
Long ago before GOD in GC, our clan tested out two party settings.
HP+SE party vs WC +OL party.
Ofcourse the HP and SE don't attack and WC + OL attacks. but we concluded the HP+SE party is bit more efficient than of others after couple of hours of tests. Ofcourse, your HP and SE need to know what they are suppose to do.. not just sit there.
Don't underestimate the power of the stigma of SE.
1-40 solo quest
40-5x go solo or make half pt in cruma
5x-7x go solo(daily quest) or pt in toi
70+ spilt up a bit
so till nearly 70 you only have 2 spots for pt and howmany solo areas, how many(all till 75?) dailys are in solo area?
why daily like in hs only give questitem to the player who last hit? like this its also ksing in pt...
i liked it like old days as i played couble of years afo, as you at at least some more options with catas(rift)/gc/loa...or do i missed something which still exsist in god?
comes from not willing to share. A lot of people that I try to invite says to me I don't want to share my xp.. lol .. it's called ignorant..
Too self centered... there's no we in NA.. only me me me me...
Theres is no reason to pick pp over a wc since they can buff a full party and nuke like a mage and have better mana regen than any real mage
well I would disagree with you and with all others who think the same, i dont play pp now because I have farmed eons with one, but i can tell you, at higher levels, party with PP will survive longer both in PvP and PvE because elemental resistances DO MATTER, an OL/WC just fail at this
A true PP knows it is just buffs because a good PP knows he is the MOB controller of the party, this is he must keep mobs away from others (and ofc buff the party properly) phrophets can save your *** while farming in places with high risk like toi, root and word of fear are awesome you know, when catacombs where the best farming spot, i played pp and always when an archer was in pt he always screwed it up, making small 3-4 parties die, but if the party had a pp they would survive, while having a wc they won't
yes catacombs are not here anymore, so what? there are plenty of places with a lot of mobs similar to catacombs so this still aplies
PPs are ****** awesome if it is not a buffbox, even in pvp if pp has wit tatoos will burn your mana in 2 seconds and then you are ****** up because you cant do **** without mana
also i dare to say that if you played and managed to get good results with pp you can easilu play.. lets say any class
constant parties exist because they are efficient..
If everyone has been given a chance and everybody learns the role, it doesn't matter if it's constant or not. Constant is just preferable due to the bond and relationship, but if you mention about efficency.. nah.. we do same in constant or quick made up party. (we give others chance and teach.. you guys kick them out..;thus they never learn.. that's the difference.)
Your constant party is efficient than some random party because the people in the random didn't get the chance as much as you did.
It takes time, but when everyone's given chance to learn, than it doesn't matter if it's a constant or random as long as you know what you are suppose to do. If you want to play L2 for many more years.. you gotta choose a way where everyone can enjoy and get better at it.
If you played in C1/C2 your day consisted of shouting for a PP, going to LOA, finding a prophet who a) demanded money to party or b) partied then buffed and afked for 20 minutes or c) quit party mid exp to go sell buffs at entrance/FG. From that people started boxing and forming constant parties they shared common playing hours with so they wouldn't have to login and waste 2 hours shouting. Then as the game evolved and parties got more and more specialized it paid to have small groups (parties) within the clan structure where each player knew the other well, knew how they played, what to expect of them, what they would do in specific situations. It worked both for PVE and more importantly for PVP and no, constant parties were started here in retail not private servers.
Again, you end up shouting for 2 hrs or more.. because ?? you don't give chance to others... simple..
While you are shouting.. people in constant are ignoring you.. and since you guys don't really utilize the matching system.. rest of them just shouts for many hours instead of creating a new party... ironic.. isn't it.
Many people I encounter in NA servers are so self centered, that most them don't care about others. Unless you guys care for others, this will never get better.. Even in real life.. you can't live alone and do all by yourself..
I always have, and always will, prefer prophet over a OL/WC for PVE. Most of the WCs that I have partied with buff, then sit until they get half mana back. Plus, if you are a fighter, you don;t need the WC mage buffs clogging your buff bar. Yeah, you can alt-click remove them, but it can be a pain.
my fav party (PVE):
Tank
Prophet
EE/SE
DD/SE/EE (different healer than above)
DD
DD
DD
comes from not willing to share. A lot of people that I try to invite says to me I don't want to share my xp.. lol .. it's called ignorant..
Too self centered... there's no we in NA.. only me me me me...
Massive over-generalization that has almost no bearing on the truth.
For years, even as a summoner, (the class most suited to solo play of any) I solo only until I find a group. Indeed, I am clanned with 200+ people who do pretty much the same.
Why oh why play a multiplayer game and not interact with others?
Often I start the group as I can cover for the lack of most classes. While I do build parties based upon what we need, its never about "I must have a DC." It's about "I want X, Y, and Z buffs."
The prophet is a fine buffer... but as the game's master single-target buffer, should have had VR added to the list. This isn't rocket science and wouldn't have unbalanced anything.
All it would have done is reduced the overhead and made party play more fun.
The prophet is and always has been lacking in the "solo-until-I-find-a-party" department.
There is no reason for this either. Every other class, including the highly specialized Bishop/Cardi was given solo abilities which matched their buff list. Why a mystic class with mystic stats gets to melee without a single damage skill when BD/SWS got melee skills, priests got nukes, and orc buffers get BOTH is a mystery not explainable by even the cultural differences.
The prophet is a fine buffer... but as the game's master single-target buffer, should have had VR added to the list. This isn't rocket science and wouldn't have unbalanced anything.
Just from the fact that you are saying that PP is fine buffer... means you don't know anything about PP.
PP is the goddess of the buffer.
Also, you are keep on forgetting about the SE. PP + SE shines..
WC lags the buff OL has. PP lacks some of the buff SE has.. they go along together.
from comapring pure buff point of view.. WC vs PP doesn't match.
VR. Who needs it when you have BD in the party? or SE?
Don't get stuck in the box.. think outside of the box. What you know is not everything..
The prophet is and always has been lacking in the "solo-until-I-find-a-party" department..
L2 is not a solo game.. although a lot does due to the reasons I have mentioned earlier..
Your PP in NA had been forced to play solo in many case due to many problems that I have mentioned earlier.
If you guys do what I have suggested, the PP would never have to play solo. It was never meant to do solo.
You are missing the whole point I'd like to address.. Your relpy just confirms the issue I addressed..
I always have, and always will, prefer prophet over a OL/WC for PVE. Most of the WCs that I have partied with buff, then sit until they get half mana back. Plus, if you are a fighter, you don;t need the WC mage buffs clogging your buff bar. Yeah, you can alt-click remove them, but it can be a pain.
my fav party (PVE):
Tank
Prophet
EE/SE
DD/SE/EE (different healer than above)
DD
DD
DD
so Prophet should Buff. glad we cleared that up... still no clear argument for PP over WC though.
WC buff VR saves se lots of mana, and a 2nd buff slot, as the combo buff gives Haste as well...
i'm not sure what point youre trying to make, Destructor. why should people pick Prophet? what secret buff has everyone overlooked? what makes them so great at buffing?
edited to add: so Prophet saves Alt+clicking ? thats the whole jist of the argument?
so Prophet should Buff. glad we cleared that up... still no clear argument for PP over WC though.
WC buff VR saves se lots of mana, and a 2nd buff slot, as the combo buff gives Haste as well...
i'm not sure what point youre trying to make, Destructor. why should people pick Prophet? what secret buff has everyone overlooked? what makes them so great at buffing?
edited to add: so Prophet saves Alt+clicking ? thats the whole jist of the argument?
PP + SE.. said it fourth time....
Just a suggestion..
Make a party with WC and go hunt wherever u hunt for an hour..
Make a party with PP + SE and go hunt the same area for same hour..
no consequence, SE can Cure, and has mental shield.
so the argument stands - WHY PP+SE over WC+SE ?
No offense Spundnik, I always appreciate your support and attention.
So don't get me wrong.
But whatever setting you use, they work. It's just that PP+SE settings has little bit of more advantage than of others anywhere which can't be felt unless you experience it..
Only thing I can descripe how it feels like is.. if you dive 80 miles on highway that's pretty fast. But if you excel to 100 mps for a while and slow down to 80 mph, you don't feel that you are going faster anymore.. but you are still going fast.
WC are just fine and because of its simplicity everyone loves. But PP has that little bit of extra edge that you only can feel it once you experience it.. I don't know if I'm describing it right.. but.. that's the only example I could think of..
I never said WC is bad. They are good in their own uniquness. But if you talk about efficiency and more stability in party.. I'd go with PP over WC.
That's all I'm saying..
perhaps a video would best explain why a PP would be "more efficient" than WC. as i see it, PP can take up to 5 minutes to buff a party, be OOM, and have to sit, where a WC even overbuffing will still have everyone buffed in 30 secs.
this seems highly INefficient to me.
no specific details are given here... flesh it out!! cite specific things. make your point, bolder than "you dont know about PP"
perhaps a video would best explain why a PP would be "more efficient" than WC. as i see it, PP can take up to 5 minutes to buff a party, be OOM, and have to sit, where a WC even overbuffing will still have everyone buffed in 30 secs.
this seems highly INefficient to me.
no specific details are given here... flesh it out!! cite specific things. make your point, bolder than "you dont know about PP"
PP 5 minutes to buff a party -> sit the @ss on the floor for 20 minutes doing nothing
WC 20 seconds to buff a full party and can deal a lot of damage without worrying about MP in their nuke.
I see no advantage in being a PP as main char over making one as a boxed pet.
PP 5 minutes to buff a party -> sit the @ss on the floor for 20 minutes doing nothing
WC 20 seconds to buff a full party and can deal a lot of damage without worrying about MP in their nuke.
I see no advantage in being a PP as main char over making one as a boxed pet.
firstly pp takes roughly 2-3 min to buff whole party, secondly full mp in 10 min of sit, thirdly prophets can get mp back with melee attacks or bow.
not boxed PP with full mana after 10 min of rest OR 5-10 minutes of attacking can root constantly from distance, word of fear if necessary and be a sub healer through battle healing.
Play one, stop boxing one and think you know everything about this class and shutup. That goes for a lot of you.
you would seem to jive with destructor, except for the fact that destructor says Prophets dont do that (attacking, melee, bows, rooting, fearing) in korea.
PP 5 minutes to buff a party -> sit the @ss on the floor for 20 minutes doing nothing
O rly?
Crowd control, buff management, a bit of melee if you really want a **** BUFFER to damage mobs...:rolleyes:
I can't understand why you're so fixated over making support classes taking the role of DD because you hate people sitting while regenerating mana...
Just from the fact that you are saying that PP is fine buffer... means you don't know anything about PP.
PP is the goddess of the buffer.
Also, you are keep on forgetting about the SE. PP + SE shines..
WC lags the buff OL has. PP lacks some of the buff SE has.. they go along together.
from comapring pure buff point of view.. WC vs PP doesn't match.
VR. Who needs it when you have BD in the party? or SE?
Don't get stuck in the box.. think outside of the box. What you know is not everything..
Another massive over-generalization (that is me knowing nothing about PP)...
I just said master single target buffer... please read the post again and try to understand this time.
IF PP had VR, the PP would STILL be missing buffs other buffers have... the only difference is that the PP would be by itself capable of being a standalone melee buffer instead of needing at least one other buffer.
A well-played WC or OL is also a partial DD or CC and without taking two slots in the party for buffs leaves room for an additional DD.
A party with VR buff needs considerably less healing than without it.
I think perhaps you are the one not thinking out of your very little box.
A PP is a solid buffer, but I would consider a WC or OL their equal with certain upsides and downsides depending on party makeup. Sadly, the PP fits in less of those makeups due to the lack of VR. (note, the "equal" concept applies only to the buffer role...)
You seem to have this air of entitlement how everyone else is supposed to treat you...
Parties sometimes click right away and sometimes don't... the PP is at a significant disadvantage when they can't even get some progress done when everything doesn't turn out perfect for them.
All in all your arrogance is astounding. The concept that two different cultures would play differently is completely understandable. To espouse one method over another and shoot down the allowance of a method to do both is silly. (after all if the changes I outlined happened, eastern PPs could still just buff every 20 minutes and manage party)
Note, the western way seems to have worked its way into the devs minds as quite frankly the new L2 is indeed making awakened buffers into partial DDs with active skills and the whole point seems to be to remove the "we need half the party buffers" concept. Why not START this concept at level 40 instead of waiting until 85+?
PP can take up to 5 minutes to buff a party, be OOM, and have to sit, where a WC even overbuffing will still have everyone buffed in 30 secs.
I have mentioned about that on prior reply.
WC has advantage of buffing all at once only in the beginning of hunt.
Once hunt starts, PP can also keep buff and don't let buff fall off, so there's no point. Takes about 2min 38 sec to buff whole party with well trained PP. Even the pets. If PP is slower, than one needs more practice.
Need dye, gear and acu weapon etc etc..
I'll just give you some scenarios so that you can have an idea..
This is just to give you an idea..
Scenario 1.
WC just finished up the buff. has no mana. party starts hunt.
2 toon got killed.. WC buffs again with little bit of mana he gained from killing mob.. finishes buff.. someone else dies again.. need to buff again..
(Not even a problem for PP.)
DD needs Greater might, healers and Tanker needs Greater Sheild... can't give separately...
(Not a problem for PP)
Only has basic elemental resist buff.. (And if you don't know why it's so important... hmmm)
(Where PP shines)
DN and Titans needs regular body and soul buff, not one of those combined.. etc..
(Only PP can do it.)
Scenario 2.
Kaotic toon annoyes the party. Kill one in party and fled.
WC buffs again.. another toon gets killed.. need to buff again..
If this happens couple times in a raw.. WC can't keep up. PP can.
Replacement of party memeber came.. just finished off the buffing the whole party.. new member needs to wait until the WC gains mana.. or get rechared by the SE/EE. PP can simply buff the new comer.
ETC >> ETC>> ETC>>>
There are loads of more to it than what I just came up with.....
Another massive over-generalization (that is me knowing nothing about PP)...
I just said master single target buffer... please read the post again and try to understand this time.
IF PP had VR, the PP would STILL be missing buffs other buffers have... the only difference is that the PP would be by itself capable of being a standalone melee buffer instead of needing at least one other buffer.
A well-played WC or OL is also a partial DD or CC and without taking two slots in the party for buffs leaves room for an additional DD.
A party with VR buff needs considerably less healing than without it.
I think perhaps you are the one not thinking out of your very little box.
A PP is a solid buffer, but I would consider a WC or OL their equal with certain upsides and downsides depending on party makeup. Sadly, the PP fits in less of those makeups due to the lack of VR. (note, the "equal" concept applies only to the buffer role...)
You seem to have this air of entitlement how everyone else is supposed to treat you...
Parties sometimes click right away and sometimes don't... the PP is at a significant disadvantage when they can't even get some progress done when everything doesn't turn out perfect for them.
All in all your arrogance is astounding. The concept that two different cultures would play differently is completely understandable. To espouse one method over another and shoot down the allowance of a method to do both is silly. (after all if the changes I outlined happened, eastern PPs could still just buff every 20 minutes and manage party)
Note, the western way seems to have worked its way into the devs minds as quite frankly the new L2 is indeed making awakened buffers into partial DDs with active skills and the whole point seems to be to remove the "we need half the party buffers" concept. Why not START this concept at level 40 instead of waiting until 85+?
What can I say.. one experience is better than thousand word.
I have tested long ago. You should do to. You say out of what you think.
I tell you from the experience. Do it your self by creating two party and test it out. You will then know what I'm talking about.
I see no advantage in being a PP as main char over making one as a boxed pet.
unrelated but... if you are making one for pvp/oly, you can keep/upgrade mystic immunity... wc dont have that, big advantage imo
@destructor Good to see you back :) You can't get a cow to drink water if it doesn't want to.
There's not enough good players (team players) on NA servers. People also don't communicate enough as well. I was just in a random party before writing this, when I was trying to get people to stand where they should be so I can actually keep people alive and do my job properly; they didn't listen. Only to find themselves dying and blame that I am a noob, and said he can play better than me lol. But I forgive he, because for someone to say that they have to be a noob themselves XD
Most people on NA can only see "now" and themselves. They think that they are awesome and resist new ideas, only because they are afraid of changes (i.e. only wants to continue the first thing that worked for them, then stop trying to improve continuous). They are afraid of failures, which leads them afraid to attempt for a chance to improve. Most people prefer constant because they don't like sharing (loots) and have trust issues; most of them do exactly the opposite of the quote in my signature lol. They help themselves (i.e. like constant) succeed first before considering about others. I like my clan, but I guess I can only get basic gear from my clan (the general culture); if I want more, I'll have to box my own dual/multi-box party then all loot is mine!! muhahaha :p Even I hate that idea, but that's how I can afford more than basic gear.
Oh and with the quality of most live WC (the easy buffer), I don't want to imagine what a live PP will be like lol. Even though, because people here prefers WC; that tends to make the PP work harder and strive to be better ^^
@destructor Good to see you back :) You can't get a cow to drink water if it doesn't want to.
There's not enough good players (team players) on NA servers. People also don't communicate enough as well. I was just in a random party before writing this, when I was trying to get people to stand where they should be so I can actually keep people alive and do my job properly; they didn't listen. Only to find themselves dying and blame that I am a noob, and said he can play better than me lol. But I forgive he, because for someone to say that they have to be a noob themselves XD
Most people on NA can only see "now" and themselves. They think that they are awesome and resist new ideas, only because they are afraid of changes (i.e. only wants to continue the first thing that worked for them, then stop trying to improve continuous). They are afraid of failures, which leads them afraid to attempt for a chance to improve. Most people prefer constant because they don't like sharing (loots) and have trust issues; most of them do exactly the opposite of the quote in my signature lol. They help themselves (i.e. like constant) succeed first before considering about others. I like my clan, but I guess I can only get basic gear from my clan (the general culture); if I want more, I'll have to box my own dual/multi-box party then all loot is mine!! muhahaha :p Even I hate that idea, but that's how I can afford more than basic gear.
Oh and with the quality of most live WC (the easy buffer), I don't want to imagine what a live PP will be like lol. Even though, because people here prefers WC; that tends to make the PP work harder and strive to be better ^^
Just in case people are still having trouble understanding destructor's argument, I will try to explain it in gooder (:p) English .
The main argument is a WC cannot sustain buffs when the game is played like it is over there. When he talks about constant partying, he is saying this:
A party of friends begins
One of the party members needs to leave (work, school, sleep, eat, etc)
Party leader uses the party match system to replace the member who is leaving (using party match system)
If party leader is leaving, he gives party leader control to someone else, and the new leader replaces the leaving party member (using party match system)
The way we tend to play over here is:
A party of friends begins
One of party members leave
Players shout "Party looking for _____" until they find someone who wants to join.
If the party has not found a replacement, and they cannot sustain PVE without that player type, the party ends and sits won shouting "Party looking for ___", which is wasted time.
He is also saying that, over there, they let their party know before they leave, so the party has enough time to find a replacement.
In the case of constant partying, A prophet is the best buffer, hands down. There is no downtime for the buffer, there is no 5 minute wait for getting buffs. A good prophet is watching the buffs of other players, and begins rebuffing when there are 5 minutes left on the buffs. Each player only gets the buffs he needs. If a player needs to leave suddenly, just after getting full buffs from the WC, then the new player will need to wait to get buffs. With a prophet, there is no wait.
Spudnik: I agree that when buff time is the most important aspect (during PvP), a WC is better than a prophet. But the prophet is still the best (not saying fastest, but best) PvE buffer in the game.
I think that sums up what he said. If I am wrong, destructor, please let me know.
Just in case people are still having trouble understanding destructor's argument, I will try to explain it in gooder (:p) English .
The main argument is a WC cannot sustain buffs when the game is played like it is over there. When he talks about constant partying, he is saying this:
A party of friends begins
One of the party members needs to leave (work, school, sleep, eat, etc)
Party leader uses the party match system to replace the member who is leaving (using party match system)
If party leader is leaving, he gives party leader control to someone else, and the new leader replaces the leaving party member (using party match system)
The way we tend to play over here is:
A party of friends begins
One of party members leave
Players shout "Party looking for _____" until they find someone who wants to join.
If the party has not found a replacement, and they cannot sustain PVE without that player type, the party ends and sits won shouting "Party looking for ___", which is wasted time.
He is also saying that, over there, they let their party know before they leave, so the party has enough time to find a replacement.
In the case of constant partying, A prophet is the best buffer, hands down. There is no downtime for the buffer, there is no 5 minute wait for getting buffs. A good prophet is watching the buffs of other players, and begins rebuffing when there are 5 minutes left on the buffs. Each player only gets the buffs he needs. If a player needs to leave suddenly, just after getting full buffs from the WC, then the new player will need to wait to get buffs. With a prophet, there is no wait.
Spudnik: I agree that when buff time is the most important aspect (during PvP), a WC is better than a prophet. But the prophet is still the best (not saying fastest, but best) PvE buffer in the game.
I think that sums up what he said. If I am wrong, destructor, please let me know.
+1
PP shines in PvP too though. WC only good when fight begins..
If party members starts to die out one by one and gets resurrected, WC don't have time to hit mobs to regain mana, where PP can still sustain good buff as soon as the dead member resurrects.
VR is useless in PvP. Many of us even deletes the zerk buff in PvP. Only the healers and ranged attakcer keeps the zerk..
I'm not saying WC is bad. It has it's onw uniquness and advantages.. But PP has more advantate in general.. That's all I'm saying.
@destructor Good to see you back :) You can't get a cow to drink water if it doesn't want to.
There's not enough good players (team players) on NA servers. People also don't communicate enough as well. I was just in a random party before writing this, when I was trying to get people to stand where they should be so I can actually keep people alive and do my job properly; they didn't listen. Only to find themselves dying and blame that I am a noob, and said he can play better than me lol. But I forgive he, because for someone to say that they have to be a noob themselves XD
Most people on NA can only see "now" and themselves. They think that they are awesome and resist new ideas, only because they are afraid of changes (i.e. only wants to continue the first thing that worked for them, then stop trying to improve continuous). They are afraid of failures, which leads them afraid to attempt for a chance to improve. Most people prefer constant because they don't like sharing (loots) and have trust issues; most of them do exactly the opposite of the quote in my signature lol. They help themselves (i.e. like constant) succeed first before considering about others. I like my clan, but I guess I can only get basic gear from my clan (the general culture); if I want more, I'll have to box my own dual/multi-box party then all loot is mine!! muhahaha :p Even I hate that idea, but that's how I can afford more than basic gear.
Oh and with the quality of most live WC (the easy buffer), I don't want to imagine what a live PP will be like lol. Even though, because people here prefers WC; that tends to make the PP work harder and strive to be better ^^
As a gamer in his late 50's, I have to say this is a very insightful post that explains a lot more about the United States generally, than merely the reference to the game. The entitlement mentality and overall culture that has changed dramatically in the past 40 years is reflected in the above quote and contains many of the core reasons America is having so many difficult issues; competing in the world among them.
This is probalby another cultural difference.... HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN U DON"T KNOW HOW WE DO IT? From few poor video clips on youtube?? give me a break...
The thing is in Asia, we tend to try to solve problems together as a Team, while the West value individualism more than anything else. Western players tend to QQ when things don't go their way, instead of banding together and work things out. (most of the time)
Which is why, the Korean preference to PPs will not apply to the west, because, frankly, the west can't work together, have too much ego and don't know the value of 'constant party'.
Western players QQ too much, gripe too much and are always looking for easymode. Same in Wow, same in L2.
I've had the pleasure of playing with Koreans, Japanese, Chinese and of course Americans. I have to say that only the Asian clans tend to perform better as a team. While American clans tend to start arguing mid PvP or Raid over whose boss. Too much ego to be honest.
Western clans/guilds only perform well if they consist of a bunch of friends, or if their leader is one obnoxious S.O.B, while the rest of the clan are made up of the meek. The comic, the noob (http://thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=1) sums up western play styles very well.
In the end, all buffers will become iss enchanters, pre-85 levels are easy, there are no spots where you need a high level strategy, just tank-spank, so make more sence making a WC-OL instead of a PP, because the priority is to reach 85 fast, and finally, you can enter in the true game.
So a WC > PP if you want to be iss enchant fast, it can solo monstrously if you couldn't find party and has buffs that can make your party farm very well, as I said, there are no spots under 85 where you need PPs single target buffs(greater shield in tanks-might in DDs, a tank can tank with greater might and berserk without problem in 95% of the cases until 85).
ModiOperandorum (http://boards.lineage2.com/member.php?u=166078) gives a good summery of the general points, and most obvious points out the most important problem with this entire argument;
-We Play Differently-
(Neither is better; and trying to point out which is most efficient is still trying to point out its better. Only because people are "Stuck" in their ways or carry on bad habits they are taught, or just go with the flow (majority)...
You can NOT play destructor (http://boards.lineage2.com/member.php?u=158139)'s way here perdiod. You can try but you will be shut down. The play style is very different. destructor (http://boards.lineage2.com/member.php?u=158139) points as far as the class are always on the spot....but the argument of which is better here is pointless for two reasons.
1. Our play styles are to different then Koreas (neither is better;and trying to argue that just leads to racial insults...)
2. Everyone becomes the same class in the end now lol...
Don't blame each other, blame NC...they would have been better off just changing the class system from start.
Its no longer about who is better for usage up to awakening; but rather who can awaken the fastest now.
This goes hand in hand with the Non Asian players in all mmos not liking Asian super grinds. (Which I personally DO like lol).
Our side has gotten use to WC> like crack, where as PP is like taking good vitamins.
People also point out that humans have bad stats for awakening now.
This is where destructor (http://boards.lineage2.com/member.php?u=158139) points are always on; were all about I want it NOW, and "I" want it, rather then "we"...fast food, yadda yadda. The problem with this point though is, were not ALL like that...but the majority is the majority and PP preference is looked down apon because of this.) So many feel destructor (http://boards.lineage2.com/member.php?u=158139) frustration even on our side... But even IF it's the same game it's, "Apples and Oranges."....
There are some good PP around, but you have to be really good because of how players play here; or you'll never be able to keep up. It ends up being to tedious or even to easy at the same time. (people drop it for both reasons.)
The 2 sides play extremely different and always have. His argument for the class is useless to us. (sadly) And only really because of the difference in play styles. Which cant change because its already been burnt into everyone's brains.
Roll PP and you will suffer. (There are plenty of people who will take on the challenge though regardless).
The rash of new players on our side has only lead to the WC direction being even more prevalent even more... ("Monkey see, monkey do") The PP is deader then dead because of this :/
PP is awsome if you play with friends and people that understand destructor (http://boards.lineage2.com/member.php?u=158139) points...
Its just not up to the player behind the PP here; he is forced into NOT playing on our side. (The complete opposite from the Korean side :/)
Our PP are getting kicked from party's if a WC> is present, or getting picked over. But keep in mind (to our players) there are so many Chanters now that WC> regardless might have issue finding party's. (I however FAIL to believe this personally.) Sure you will run into parties of NA and EU players who will be Classist...but in general people take what they can get. The new Tsunami of F2P players will in the end change L2 forever anyway. They bring all the f2p chaotic mentality to every game, and rage, troll, etc...Basically I mean to say that the classism that PP feel here will only get worse with in the year. (as will classes period) Which is the only benefit to the new classes narrowing down the differences in the end; there will be far less QQ even tho it waters down the one of the Cores of L2)
Any pve solo points people throw in the disfavor of PP can be overcome by the most part with a Greater Wolf...
But the they will just point out, what about WC and Wolf :p
There's just no win here.
It comes down in the end to what do you want to be playing end game, because (its just not about what you need to get there now; other then who can do it the most efficient or fastest way.) Again keep in mind, especially with the obsession of boxing that there are armies of Chanters end game regardless.) So its not just about what you want to play; but consider demand for slots.
I'm all for being different, im well aware that WC has got it much MUCH easier lvling but im a Human with human racial passives so im looking at my options for being slightly more varied plus i much prefer the look of human mystic.
What would of been easier for me is if i chose a Human Tank because i've sublcassed this then make the enchanter a dual class but i wouldn't get the Mystic look and there maybe a problem with olympiad and some other things.
Great Wolf + Prophet is bareable. Daily's is almost impossible however in Argos with no attack skills.
+++
Other point to mention is PP is brilliant at taking care of room stealers, in GC i buffed one of the monsters on the opposing tank and with our healer healing it they all dropped easily, room clear of knobheads check.
Again if i haven't mentioned before when it comes to partying it makes hardly any difference if you have PP or WC, no good party rely's on vamp, ever. The only downside is when the party is starting and then your waiting for a bit for prophet to buff, only downside.
Also a good positive is that the Prophet can look after a full archer party with no healer in swampland, low level battle heals take care of any drama's which is the only downside of a WC, no real healing capability.
Oh and another party favourite, Prophet is the best buffer for groups who lack a debuffer, regular physical attacks from prophet reduce target's p def by 23% + Block Shield = 33% p def reduction, a WC cannot debuff a target of pdef however they have SoulCry but that falls flat in comparison to reducing pdef for a GK/Titan to smash things silly in places like Giants Cave.
Hi,
I read your post ( the first one only) and something trouble me.
A good PP can handle buff perfectly on time and do some additionnal DD fighter weapon.
Imo, PP are one of the best class to play because they're is many way to play it : you can go on mago party like prime buffer ( even if a good party need empo ofc), you cango with archer party ( root till some archer have the aggro and then attack from behind), you can go on fihter CqC party with heavy armor and duals or blunt doing extra damage.
The real problem ( still imo) is that PP isnot a class to play like a first main, because you need money for additionnal set ( robe + heavy, light + heavy with a low robe, robe + light regen ) and additionnal weap ( dual or blunt, weap SA conversion/mana Up or acumen and LS skills if you wanna nuke a bit).
So, i love playing PP, but it's hard to start a new PP without any stuff/money.
Most of my best momnt on L2 was playing with a PP ( raid Antharas, party pvp)
So people, if you ever play with a good PP is something you must do !.
Hi,
I read your post ( the first one only) and something trouble me.
A good PP can handle buff perfectly on time and do some additionnal DD fighter weapon.
Imo, PP are one of the best class to play because they're is many way to play it : you can go on mago party like prime buffer ( even if a good party need empo ofc), you cango with archer party ( root till some archer have the aggro and then attack from behind), you can go on fihter CqC party with heavy armor and duals or blunt doing extra damage.
The real problem ( still imo) is that PP isnot a class to play like a first main, because you need money for additionnal set ( robe + heavy, light + heavy with a low robe, robe + light regen ) and additionnal weap ( dual or blunt, weap SA conversion/mana Up or acumen and LS skills if you wanna nuke a bit).
So, i love playing PP, but it's hard to start a new PP without any stuff/money.
Most of my best momnt on L2 was playing with a PP ( raid Antharas, party pvp)
So people, if you ever play with a good PP is something you must do !.
In my opinion now for all new players, it really is more of a rush to 85 to hit enchanter where both PP and WC become nearly same besides a couple pre-awaken skills.
And in that matter we should ask if human/orc have any advantages over other races as a live enchanter. As I've only seen people cover bd/sws live enchanter. Because as I see it, why would one want to suffer 85 levels in NA servers..
pp is useless and you can find some stupid arguments but it will not change anything. WC=>pp and deep in your heart you know this blame yourself that you can t find a girl and prefer a good looking human in game. BB
pp is useless and you can find some stupid arguments but it will not change anything. WC=>pp and deep in your heart you know this blame yourself that you can t find a girl and prefer a good looking human in game. BB
its not completely true, but i agree that its true in lot of scenarios
I'm a shilen knight because I can play DD rol myself.
I'm a shilen knight because I can heal myself.
I'm a shilen knight because I can pull mobs myself.
I'm a shilen knight because I can buff myself.
I'm a shilen knight because I can debuff mobs myself.
I'm a shilen knight because I can tank mobs myself.
I'm a shilen knight, because asking a "normal, average, european or NA player" to do their job, is... Overhelming... For them.
Because playing at 100% is soooo stressfull, because watching TV while healing is so amazing. Because dance, sit down, and look some **** is so fun... Because "I play for fun!", thats means that I don't want to care about the game, and I don't give a **** if I mess with your gamestyle. Im just here to have a good time, and I don't need to play efficiently to do that.
I don't know how much party match works in korea, but here I never saw it working on shilen, and my brother too in magmeld. We do solo all the time with our boxes so far in overcrowded spots and too many ks.
Stupid private server players, you do realize party matching has been on L2 since before GoD?
I realize this thread is a little old, but still I had to reply.
First off, I have a hierophant which I mainly use as a buffbox, but I still enjoy playing her live every now and then. But after lvl 60 or so I have been almost completely unable to find a party for her. Even for something cheap and silly as the kamas/labas.
we need a WC for that, why don't we have a wc, prophets suck we need a wc
I'm not kidding, I start a party instead of sitting around idly and 2/3 of the people I invite will leave right away after seeing that I'm a PP/Hiero and not a fracking cryer. And going !lfp will NEVER net me a party, as a WC will ALWAYS get taken over a PP.
destructor is correct in that this is largely due to the player mentalities, not the classes. After all, the differences in buffs between WC and PP are slim; at least when both people know how the frack to play their classes. But a WC can buff the whole party quicker and add some DPS of his own to the party while a PP means waiting for two minutes before you rush off to kill.
I wouldn't even put it down to eastern vs western mentalities, but the western L2 servers seem to attract a ... well... "youthful and inexperienced" crowd. It has been like this long before f2p, but f2p has certainly made it worse.
Examples:
1.)
Just entered a kama with a party, I start buffing. As soon as I'm through with one or max two people - they run off and attack the boss. Screw waiting for the others. Even when the PP in the party is also doubling as a healer and now has to buff, switch target, heal, switch target, remember what fracking buff he stopped with and continue buffing.
Of course this will net you a nice "you forgot my holy weapon, noob" or whatever if you do miss one...
2.)
ToI, full party. The BD only dances and then idles, the healer goes afk at random for 1-2 minutes, I keep the party alive and buffed, whack the mobs to keep my MP up and even find the time to root the occasional mob. Then the healer goes afk for quite a while, of course without telling us. I tell the party to take it slower, as I can't keep up with heals over a longer period as when I don't hit mobs, I will run out of MP fast. I tell them several times. But of course noone knows how to do anything but "target next, attack" or at best "assist", so soon enough I'm out of mana. Luckily the healer stirs and casts some group heals.
That's when the buffs start fading. "OMG nub buffer" "OMGOMG can't you watch the timer" "WTF did you waste your MP on?"
So... I wish those were rare occurances... but at least for me they're not. They're the norm, that's the life of my PP here, on the western L2 servers. You can't even leave the party and look for a better one, since you wont find any other party. Because you're not a WC. And god help you if you go looking for a mentor.
Outside of a clan you just wont find people giving a ****, which is why the PP/Hiero tree is so unrewarding.
Now, you can't the change the community, you can't make people play "better". And even if you get a really good party for your PP you know that a WC could've done your job about 95% as good, while having a much, MUCH easier time outside of those rare, fabled, legendary "good parties".
For this reason I suppose it's not unreasonable to beef up the PP a little. Make CounterCrit / "that passive attack hex I forget the name of" available at an earlier level, or increase the elemental damage mobs dish out / increase mobs that dish out elemental damage, or give them PPs some ability to solo.
Leveling a live PP is the single most painful grind in L2. By far. Because there's so many WCs running around, because they get the same buffs you do while leveling 10 times as fast and because people tend to be royal fracktards in random parties here.
I feel for everyone that plays a live Prophet. I now play my Hiero only as a buffpet, dragging her and my main slowly towards 85.
One last thing: I leveled my nooblet warsmith in Cruma Tower today, with my Hiero following around for buffs. While I was looking for a room some random guy runs up to me and says "Buffs plz". And I buffed him. And we were both happy.
Why would anyone level a prophet at this point in the game.
I just don't understand why anyone would put themselves through that kind of punishment.
Because they're good buffers, because of the elemental resists and because they're fun to play if ... IF you can get a party. However, the mentality of players (which deems all PPs as deadweight) and the easy availability of WCs (which reduces the need to have a PP in your party to 0) make a party-only XP'ing pretty near impossible.
Which is what I posted before, albeit in less words.
Have you even bothered to search the forums?
Who, me? I did, infact this thread did come up during a search, it seemed relevant, I read it and decided to reply. Did you even read the thread before spamming?
THis discussion is mostly pointless. Who cares about PP or WC at the level 85 they both will be Iss. And despite the minor differences they will be virtually the same. Now days peoples just choose the fastest leveling class to be awakened.
THis discussion is mostly pointless. Who cares about PP or WC at the level 85 they both will be Iss. And despite the minor differences they will be virtually the same. Now days peoples just choose the fastest leveling class to be awakened.
This discussion has educational value, because we learned, that korean players are kinda noobs, that make up for their noobishness with 24/7 "continous" parties :D
For before GOD buffers, IMO the only setup that would work for PP would be PP+SE and I'd call it "barely works", not "works great".
After GOD NC showed that western attitude toward buffers is the attitude they want to go with... so we (western players) were right :P
Though the cultural difference between playstyles is interesting. Destructor blames const parties for all the evil things in Aden and Elmore.
Truth is, that if you have parties running 24/7, no wars (so can xp with other people than clanmates), and activity in clan 200/200 online, you don't need const.
But if you have 3-4 hours per day to play (thus waiting 1 hour robs you of 1/3 of your playtime); you know, that if you leave city with random group, your expected life time is 15 minutes max; most of the server play on evenings of one timezone, and other hours servers are empty and your clan online is 30/100 then const is the best way to go.
Also social aspect of const = more fun. People are naturally designed to do things in small groups, IRL we don't cooperate with 200 people at once, in rl jobs we have departments and offices that consist of few people. Our closest families are ca 10 people max. And so is in game.
Also Destructor was saying, that we don't give chance to new people. IMO that's not true. Everyone some day ago was new. Everyone got helped by many people on their way in game, before stayed on his own feet (at least I was). But if you find a player that on 86 lvl has no idea how to play his char, I think it's the player fault, not bad community that didn't teach him, how to play... quess it's difference between western and eastern mentality ;P
it's difference between western and eastern mentality ;P
this
I too don't agree with everything Destructor said but his thread and him telling us how things are done in Korea (where the game is made, this is important) is nice, if NCSoft want this game to be succesfull in US/EU(yea Africa you too and you too Latinos :p) they have to take into consideration the difference between western and eastern mentality/playstyle/etc.
not going into the PP vs WC thing... he was probably mad people wouldn't party his PP when he posted this
Koreans don't care about us and ncwest doesn't either so we are stuck with korean idealism of MMOs.
Which i gotta tell you is ****ed stupid. This mindless 10hour/day grinding logic has no sense behind it. It's all just an excuse to drain your wallets but people fall for it.
/ranting about the lack of solo spots and how it takes 1hour to set up a stupid party and then the stupid tank has to go and can't find another. And in the end got 0.95%
Because they're good buffers, because of the elemental resists and because they're fun to play if ... IF you can get a party. However, the mentality of players (which deems all PPs as deadweight) and the easy availability of WCs (which reduces the need to have a PP in your party to 0) make a party-only XP'ing pretty near impossible.
Which is what I posted before, albeit in less words.
Who, me? I did, infact this thread did come up during a search, it seemed relevant, I read it and decided to reply. Did you even read the thread before spamming?
Prophets are dead weight. WC and OL are better esp now that OL has Haste and WC has Zerk. Elemental Resists don't matter until high levels and by then all of them have at least some of them and it's not hard to level a PP buffbot up the easy levels to OOP buff those. That has always been the Prophet's issue. OL/WC get most all the same buffs while doing 5x the damage of a prophet in a party. Why should anyone bother to take one, and why should anyone especially bother to put themselves through the ridiculous experience of playing/leveling one up.
And search again. There are like 500 threads about the Prophet's issues on this forum. It's a half-decade old issue and it's why 90% of them quit the game or rolled a DD/Sub-Main changed prior to GoD.
A few years ago there was one that probably went on for about 40 pages.
Prophets are the most shafted class in this game. Deal with it, or reroll and move on. You made a bad choice rolling that class, IMO.
ADDITIONALLY: The proliferation of mentoring and the mentor buffs has made almost all buffers borderline unnecessary at the lower levels except for Zerk, which both a WC and OL can provide while doing 5x the damage of a prophet.
Also Destructor was saying, that we don't give chance to new people. IMO that's not true. Everyone some day ago was new. Everyone got helped by many people on their way in game, before stayed on his own feet (at least I was). But if you find a player that on 86 lvl has no idea how to play his char, I think it's the player fault, not bad community that didn't teach him, how to play... quess it's difference between western and eastern mentality ;P
Absolutely untrue.
Some of the awakened classes have very little similarity to unawakened classes in playstyle. Prophets do not play anything like Iss Enchanter does, and 85-86 is a few hours of PLing in DVC or SoA with Mentor XP Bonus and a 100% (nevermind 200%) Nevitt Rune.
It's thoroughly expected that many players can get to 86 and still not have a grip on their class. It's like expecting a level 52 player to be an expert at their green tag class, IMO.
This is even more true if you are in a clan with wars, because killing MOBs with pre-set artificial AI is much easier than PvPing players who think for themselves are are unpredictable.
Prophets are dead weight. WC and OL are better esp now that OL has Haste and WC has Zerk. Elemental Resists don't matter until high levels and by then all of them have at least some of them and it's not hard to level a PP buffbot up the easy levels to OOP buff those. That has always been the Prophet's issue. OL/WC get most all the same buffs while doing 5x the damage of a prophet in a party.
Prophets have single elemetal resists + wind/water/fire/earth combined resist buff (which stacks for 50 total resistance iirc), they also have mental shield, resist poison and resist bleed.
So they are good buffers. That WCs are also good buffers since they get most of the same stuff doesn't change that.
Why should anyone bother to take one, and why should anyone especially bother to put themselves through the ridiculous experience of playing/leveling one up.
And search again. There are like 500 threads about the Prophet's issues on this forum. It's a half-decade old issue and it's why 90% of them quit the game or rolled a DD/Sub-Main changed prior to GoD.
A few years ago there was one that probably went on for about 40 pages.
Again, because it's a fun class to play *IF* you can get a party. Everytime someone asks on the forum for class advice he gets told "there is no best class, play what you like". Should we change that to "play what you like, but for heaven's sake, dont go prophet"?
And why should I search again? I know that the PP issue has been around for years. I've seen (and read through) several threads from years back and quite frankly, I'm amazed that since then PPs got nerfed even harder.
Prophets are the most shafted class in this game. Deal with it, or reroll and move on. You made a bad choice rolling that class, IMO.
Once more: I created my PP as a buffbox, only took her out live on occasion when I felt like it. The elemental & debuff resists are really nice, also I would never want my box to be one of the ugly orc mystics.
So *I* am quite happy with my Hiero, but I understand those live PP players are not. And should they really be told to "just reroll a WC lol", even when it only takes a few days? I'd rather have some basic functionality for all classes.
Therein lies the PPs problem, not that a PP is a bad buffer, but that the WC fills the buffer role nearly as well AND can solo easily thanks to infini-HP/MP AND gets decent attack skills AND gets more combo buffs to use up less buff slots AND gets debuffs AND after all of that awakens to the same class as the PP with not even 1/10th of the effort.
ADDITIONALLY: The proliferation of mentoring and the mentor buffs has made almost all buffers borderline unnecessary at the lower levels except for Zerk, which both a WC and OL can provide while doing 5x the damage of a prophet.
That class is worthless.
It's not the mentor buffs at lower levels, but more the adventurer buffs. PPs and WCs have maybe 10, 15 levels where their buffs enjoy a clear superiority over the noob buffs, and then at 70+ most people start running around with mentor buffs.
That affects WCs and healers as well, since now people can easily solo in previous party hunting spots. But even healers get nukes now, WCs just lol their way to 85 and PPs get shafted.
Resist Poison/Bleed are grief/trash buffs, like Kiss of Eva.
Resist buffs don't matter practically for 1-85 they are useless to cast in 90% of circumstances, cause the places where they do matter no one goes there anymore. WCs get Elemental Protection as well.
Prophets do terrible damage, take forever to buff, have some of the worse character and armor models in the game, and are obsolete at the lower levels due to mentor buffs.
Low level grouping now is about doing as much damage as you can to level as fast as you can with tons of XP bonuses.
Prophets simply don't work in that mold well at all. OLs and WCs do.
Prophets got shafted because NCSoft gave too many buffers too many buffs and since they were boring (read: not fun) to play no one wanted to play them. Since this game is so buff dependent they had to do that. The other buffers are superior. Live Prophets used to be Pro Olympiad Farmers among other things. That's not the cast anymore (can't even do Oly as a Heirophant anymore).
If you're leveling a Buffbox Prophet should have not even been a consideration. Who cares what a boxed buffer looks like, anyways... Are you serious?
Healers have had Inquisitor for years now. All NCSoft did was stop being ******ed about it and let them nuke while in their normal stance. BP and EE almost always had Undead Nukes and Lethals.
Avoid the prophet class, it's that simple. It's a class for people without a clue, or who just love self-punishment.
Seriously, Resist Poison and Bleed? Any decent healer will Purify/Cure/Cleanse that off within 2 seconds. Maybe it'll get 2 ticks of damage in...
They seem a waste of buff slots, but they can save healers the trouble of constantly curing those debuffs and concentrate on healing/recharging/stigma'ing.
Well, just a random post :p
BTW, OL/WC/PP can provide Berserker Spirit and Concentration (for PP and OL only), buffs that do stack with mentor ones.
Some of the awakened classes have very little similarity to unawakened classes in playstyle. Prophets do not play anything like Iss Enchanter does, and 85-86 is a few hours of PLing in DVC or SoA with Mentor XP Bonus and a 100% (nevermind 200%) Nevitt Rune.
It took me around few hours (actually few trains) to figure how to play bishop, after I switched from archer and got taken to FOG.
It took me few minutes to figure new aeore skills after awakening.
So please tell me, why there are healers, who only know radiant heal and panic heal and what can help them ;P
Noone expect you to be expert, but you should at least have some ability to think - if you have that, you can become competent on every class in few hours. After that it's only about talking with other people and learning from them (on bishop days I had good mentor, although there was no mentor system in game :P) IMO Destructor is wrong, cause the way we play here gives you chance to learn something, but only if you put some effort in the beginning. And from the other hand protect from those, who don't take effort.
Warcriers are better than prophets at everthing but healing.
Of course at level 85 the difference becomes obsolete as the classes get the same new skills.
At least the prophets loved becoming an awakened class as this meant they would be wanted in groups again.
What I wish is that there never was a buffing class so that we could actually solo at level 86 when we no longer have access to mentor buffs.
As it stands our normal stats are actually reduced from where they should be so that our stats become normal when we are buffed. Buffers are basically a Catch 22 class which needs to exist solely because it exists. If it didn't exist our normal stats would be where our buffed stats now are.
What I wish is that there never was a buffing class so that we could actually solo at level 86 when we no longer have access to mentor buffs.
As it stands our normal stats are actually reduced from where they should be so that our stats become normal when we are buffed. Buffers are basically a Catch 22 class which needs to exist solely because it exists. If it didn't exist our normal stats would be where our buffed stats now are.
Took me years to see one old retail player to say this! And gosh do i agree!
I always saw buffs in games as a nice -not entirely necessary- add to your character. While here, it is impossible to hunt without buffs. Unfortunately the game already started with buffers and players would be astonished if they just take them out (then again, there were classes completely wiped out such as necro, ol, soulbreaker). One thing i can say for sure, if necessary buffs never existed the game would've been much more balanced years ago and there wouldn't be the need to create 8 classes as it would be much easier to manipulate classes stats to reflect their true power at their current state.
One thing i can say for sure, if necessary buffs never existed the game would've been much more balanced years ago and there wouldn't be the need to create 8 classes as it would be much easier to manipulate classes stats to reflect their true power at their current state.
Nowadays the closest you can get to this "ideal" status is playing Olympiad games. Since they added the buffer npc things were never the same again (and pp were quite overpowered).
Nowadays the closest you can get to this "ideal" status is playing Olympiad games. Since they added the buffer npc things were never the same again (and pp were quite overpowered).
Ya, the current Oly is more fair, considering the classes we have, compared to the one before. I remember prophet owning me in c5 and interlude with a freakin bow and i was a tank! :D
Remember SEs with dagger and bow looong time ago..started to hate the mana burn in gracia...it was always the same deal vs healers -> 0 mp -> auto-attack the entire match.
I have a warcryer. But I main a Tank, I have no qualms with Prophets, The argument I've seen over and over is mainly that vamp is what makes the difference, but the truth is, vampiric isnt really necessary outside of solo play, if the tank is doing his job then he should be the only one taking the brunt of the damage outside of AOE's and if anyone gets hurt significantly the healer whether it is PP or a Bishop or SE should be able to make up for the damage accordingly without Losing mana regeneration.
Ideally the party should barely even have to move. this is why Taunt's have range, healer can stay in walk, and the tank can pull mobs and face the mob's back to the party (Because I am disturbed by how few of you know that there is a significant damage increase and crit land rate from the back of a mob) VR is virtually obsolete in this situation. which I think more accurately raises the issue of actually needing a MAIN healer class who will only be sitting around.
A properly played party that fully utilizes how the game works would appreciate the higher defences over the higher reliance on damage, because to be quite frank the 4 seconds of kill speed difference doesn't amount to squat when you're standing in place for 7 seconds for the mobs to start respawning.
PP was great till GoD no matter what clueless people say. With duals and p def debuffs I could behave like semi-DD, recharging mana with hits and keeping myself alive even without vamp with nice heals while making work easier for other fighters in party who killed debuffed mobs much faster. Its nice that now as Iss I dont have to change playstyle or buy different equipment, its same as what I did before just now I have also some skills to make damage and not just hit with normal hits. GoD screwed any pre-awakened buffer classes with mentor buffs and also now WC has even bigger advantage with mana recharging while nuking. But I guess that wont matter, afterall everyone can get to 85+ in no time so any big debates about which buffer is better are pointless.