Am going to give you a few reasons this game is short healers. (From my own personal view that is)
From the day I awakened as healer I was shocked how fast people could drop dead sometimes 1 shotted by mobs just like that.
At first it felt bad till I got used to it and just rezz up asap and go on with my business.
Dying is not biggy anymore nowadays as as somehow the healer rezzes are 100%.
Later as I got more understanding for the game after 85+ I noticed that besides the hard hits/bad crits one could get from these 85+ mobs to die like this, people also blindly take the "Free R-Grade Armor" from the diplomas and use it cause it is "Cool, Leet or whatever term you wish to give to this", not able or willing to element and enchant this armor.
Not realizing that in many cases thier old elemented and enchanted armor performs better then this "Cool, Leet or whatever term you wish to give to this" R-Grade.
Hence they die faster.
Not being is a huge clan (and I have no desire to be, so do not suggest this as a solution) I depend on random groups to XP.
Now here is the catch ... I dare say MOST of these random groups suck.
Bad tanks, which is deadly for a healer, people not assisting, people who always know better etc etc.
I feel there is not always enough understanding and consideration for the only class to loose xp, has to pay attention ALL the time, has to wait even sometimes to GO PEE cause the tank does not stop pulling after you mention you need a PEE break. Being one of the 2 classes that if a RL/Human Nature event accurs the whole party needs to stop.
This has some consequences ...
Healers that do NOT have an attitude and got smart fast do not leave bad groups fast enough to not loose XP. (made this mistake myself)
Unfortunatly Salvation has a 1 hour CD and some parties manage to get you killed AGAIN before CD is over.
Healers that DO have this attitude just abandon a party just like that often even without saying a word.(will do this myself now aswell, yes it took me a while to get smart)
Healers grow to get mercyless and when die refuse to take an ISS/Scroll rez, demanding a 100% rez, and let the party take a wipe in the process.
(something I understand fully now)
What I will never understand is the only class that risks loosing XP in party, is about the suckiest slowest soloer ingame and is therefore kind of PUSHED into parties.
What I hate is the selfish attitude of the MAJORITY players to NOT carry a brez to accommodate their healer incase of an xp loss death.
After ALL the countless 100% rezzes they got, it seems this is too much to do in return for the healer.
Feels like all tell you: I don't give crap about your XP, I get to keep mine, FU.
So I invested in and carry my own brez, which is often pointless, cause in a party by the time I ask for a trade and one actually decides to trade, the party is dead anyways.
And the sad thing after a wipe is that some even expect the HEALER to release and take a 100% loss so all other can keep thier XP.
I had a discussion once with a player about this and he stated simply this IS the healer life.
As I do love the healing playstyle, I cannot understand the lack of consideration from the players AND NCSoft.
If it is truely ment to be that I have to sacrifice my xp over an over again and therefore lvl way slower then the rest, so ALL other players can go their merry way, without means so make up for this loss in a decent way like ALL the other classes, then I guess it is not the class for me.
Besides the funplay I like to grow and advance in game like all the rest of you.
Many healers I have spoken to feel simular as I do, and a scary amount even claim to regret taking healer as class.
The healers that are content are mostly in a big clan that DO accomodate them.
In random groups healers are treated like poo. Get used to it and treat them like poo too :)
At least I do this way ;P Last time I left a group in the middle of pull made me all warm inside ^^
Altho i fully agree on you, and yes people die random and suddenly.
BUT you are the healer, the savior, the last man and we count on you, we put our life's in your hand and the attitude and slacking of healers lately i've seen has been dramatic. So basicly ur in a circle.
About the ressing part, u cant expect ppl to have brez from the event i got 18 while i did ALOT of those thingies. Yes u have a mana 100% rez so if you loosse 1% and 6 other ppl dont loose 1% its a form of kindness and social pressure to ress the others. On the other side while im still looking for a party you will have made more % ;)
I think I understand your frustration, I play aeore myself and often take random parties too. It's indeed the way you described. However, I invented some ways to circumvent this.
-Expand your friend list- and take party only from friends who WILL carry a few brez for you and wont fail farming (lol).
-Join parties with 2 healers inside-chances are you will survive even if the tank is lame.
-Make some friends that, if asked, will go to the end of the world to brez you ^^
-Grow a stone heart and leave lame groups as soon as you realize they cannot even handle farming.
Other than this I dont know what to add. I regret having to play like this because by nature I would always like to help others. But if I did that I would only earn minus exp every day in the current system. :(
Good healers are always in demand for a reason, it's the bad ones that always have issues, always looking for excuses and always making threads like this.....
I play Aeore myself and still struggling with learning all the icons so I can form my most efficient shortcut bar.
I don't think I'm a bad healer but the opinion on oneself is always flawed, so I leave to others the task to judge my performance.
Noobish talk aside, I do agree with the OP post. Success in a party is always thanks to the tank, failure is always blamed on the healer.
Ours is a hard life.
I do understand this, i normaly was on SOA parties where either the archer likes to go face to face with mobs or the tank doesnt pull mobs to himself and the healer dies, and i think, heck if it was me, id be ****** for loosing 80% my xp over and over becoz someone failed.
On the other hand, i have 70% less party time coz im a summoner and people deem them useless and easy replaceable for w/e reason.
One thing i do not understand now with the changes is:
-Why there isn't zones for healers to eficiently solo at 85+-hint- lethal undead.
-Why res isn't all 100% from every class and scroll? Having healer's/iss' the fastest and deleting bres overall. The game is pushing people to level faster so i don't see any game breaking phenomenon in this.
Yea I'm a Aeore healer too and it's a squishy toon. I know you ranted about not wanting a clan,but the truth is it helps. Clan skills do a world of good. We moved our clan over to magmeld and we noticed how much our clan skills meant. Element on gear helps,but it's not a cheap thing and if you're like me I use the mentee coins to do it to save money.
When I'm in Harnaks and I seem to have 2 or 3 mobs on me I try to aoe sleep them if you can. Run the mobs around the room if you have to. If you can hit UD or cast dissolve on yourself and pop the tree. And if nothing else use dark force and push the mob away from you. The tank is a major factor in the party,but there are times they don't see you have aggro on you. Healers are a very demanding class. I'm not saying you suck you just have to get used to defending yourself
I can't stand having a wizard in party nagging me 5 mins after rebirth for mana. I don't have time to cast a crappy radiant recharge on you a billion times so you can instantly use it down in one cast.
I know your pain, normally the only thing that stands after a party wipe is a smart dagger(especially a dark elf, cause of the 5s no target no-debuff thing), i normally carry a brez with me and try to ress iss and healer.
The problem in soa is that mobs c thru shadow or hide or anything sometimes...
Normally, when i make a party with randoms there are 2 normal reasons for a wipe, bad tank or bad healer, both is just a lolz... ppl need to learn to play their classes after awakening, and learn the limites of their gear party members.
Also, you sometimes get trolled in soa, sometimes, other partys get wiped and they just run past you with mobs in tail, other times, some POWER clan decides that they want to wipe your face, and they just w8 for a pull and flag tank and drop the healer and just go about their business.
I think healers need to start to be trigger happy with pr, i normally try to make a healer happy whenever i can, they get all the bad resses nowadays... 20% from a iss or a normal ress ouch.
Well yeah bad healers don't even get in pt...Good healers need to be the "directors"...If you die in soa stay dead...call someone to trade and brez you and then rez 100% the others...Losing 80kk xp at 86 or even more at higher level is not option. Its like losing 1 hour of your life grinding just to make the pt finish the quest 2-5 minutes earlier. You don't owe them ****. They can wait and they will...because they still depend on you and for 100% rez.
Unfortunately too many tards not giving a **** juist /block...I have blocked my ally for that...they wanted Teredor with 1 healer when they are almost clueless.
It's not reasonable to expect a newly awakened player to be pro,full elements,OE weapons,top jewels and so on. I realize there's that learning curve. Even I being a healer don't expect a brez on the spot for every death and neither should anyone else. It's so easy for everyone to point the blame on the healer. I'll be honest that there is only so much spam heal someone can do. After awakening there just isn't a substitute for a tank anymore, the tank is the tank and no other class can substitute it.
I've learned to just not stare at my xp bar,try to have fun and take a break and play my rogue as a stress relief.
Am going to give you a few reasons this game is short healers. (From my own personal view that is)
From the day I awakened as healer I was shocked how fast people could drop dead sometimes 1 shotted by mobs just like that.
At first it felt bad till I got used to it and just rezz up asap and go on with my business.
Sometimes it happens but usually happens because...
A: The tank failed to grab all of the agro.
B: A player grabbed some agro and decided to try to tank it.
C: The tank died.
Dying is not biggy anymore nowadays as as somehow the healer rezzes are 100%.
Because WIT still affects resurrection % as well as clans having clan luck passives and the like.
Later as I got more understanding for the game after 85+ I noticed that besides the hard hits/bad crits one could get from these 85+ mobs to die like this, people also blindly take the "Free R-Grade Armor" from the diplomas and use it cause it is "Cool, Leet or whatever term you wish to give to this", not able or willing to element and enchant this armor.
Not realizing that in many cases thier old elemented and enchanted armor performs better then this "Cool, Leet or whatever term you wish to give to this" R-Grade.
Hence they die faster.
I'm confused by this... Now most players on Chronos and Naia have either Vesper/Vesper Noble, Vorpal, - and very few - Elegia sets that are enchanted and elemented, yes. But the Event R grade sets that you get with diplomas can be enchanted and elemented. So I don't understand how this is of any revelance?
Not being is a huge clan (and I have no desire to be, so do not suggest this as a solution) I depend on random groups to XP.
That's a personal fault, but ok.
Now here is the catch ... I dare say MOST of these random groups suck.
Bad tanks, which is deadly for a healer, people not assisting, people who always know better etc etc.
That comes from being too stubborn to join a good clan which leads back to my comment above, "That's a personal fault".
I feel there is not always enough understanding and consideration for the only class to loose xp, has to pay attention ALL the time, has to wait even sometimes to GO PEE cause the tank does not stop pulling after you mention you need a PEE break. Being one of the 2 classes that if a RL/Human Nature event accurs the whole party needs to stop.
This is a chain of consequences that have befallen you from your decision not to join a good leading again to... "That's a personal fault".
This has some consequences ...
Of course it does!
Healers that do NOT have an attitude and got smart fast do not leave bad groups fast enough to not loose XP. (made this mistake myself)
Unfortunatly Salvation has a 1 hour CD and some parties manage to get you killed AGAIN before CD is over.
Continuing the chain...
Healers that DO have this attitude just abandon a party just like that often even without saying a word.(will do this myself now aswell, yes it took me a while to get smart)
Still continuing the chain... And the smart thing to do was listed all the way up the chain of consequences to revoking your decision that is the root of all your problems.
Healers grow to get mercyless and when die refuse to take an ISS/Scroll rez, demanding a 100% rez, and let the party take a wipe in the process.
(something I understand fully now)
What I will never understand is the only class that risks loosing XP in party, is about the suckiest slowest soloer ingame and is therefore kind of PUSHED into parties.
What I hate is the selfish attitude of the MAJORITY players to NOT carry a brez to accommodate their healer incase of an xp loss death.
After ALL the countless 100% rezzes they got, it seems this is too much to do in return for the healer.
Feels like all tell you: I don't give crap about your XP, I get to keep mine, FU.
So I invested in and carry my own brez, which is often pointless, cause in a party by the time I ask for a trade and one actually decides to trade, the party is dead anyways.
And the sad thing after a wipe is that some even expect the HEALER to release and take a 100% loss so all other can keep thier XP.
I had a discussion once with a player about this and he stated simply this IS the healer life.
As I do love the healing playstyle, I cannot understand the lack of consideration from the players AND NCSoft.
If it is truely ment to be that I have to sacrifice my xp over an over again and therefore lvl way slower then the rest, so ALL other players can go their merry way, without means so make up for this loss in a decent way like ALL the other classes, then I guess it is not the class for me.
Besides the funplay I like to grow and advance in game like all the rest of you.
Many healers I have spoken to feel simular as I do, and a scary amount even claim to regret taking healer as class.
The healers that are content are mostly in a big clan that DO accomodate them.
/discuss
Ok I stopped reading.
So you have 3 options...
A: Suck up your pride and join a good clan
B: Play another character and refrain from making a topic complaining about other class archtypes on the forum.
C: Quit and play a single player game.
A: Suck up your pride and join a good clan
B: Play another character and refrain from making a topic complaining about other class archtypes on the forum.
C: Quit and play a single player game.
Have a nice day!
D: Be picky about random groups. After all it takes around 30 seconds to find new one, so leave-join-leave-join untill you find decent one for next few hours :]
As an Othell Rogue I always have a BREZ scroll on me for the healer. Healing is a thankless job, also a tough one to do correctly. In the event of full party wipe, you'll see many players BSOE (very selfish), me I hit Hide, Brez the healer.
Treat those good healers well, they are few and far between.
If you dont want badly geared dynasty ppl set the lvl limit to atleast 86, hopefully they are atleast in immortal, yes no element sucks, but atleast they arent in low s grade.
Add good tanks to friendlist, party mostly with them.
Make your enchanter realize that ppl in bad gear or that are squishy, can take Knight harmony and be just fine.
I always tell the enchanter to give Othells knight harmony, if the Othell doesnt agree, it only takes him being one or two shotted before he comes around. Othells need the crit rate/dmg bonus, that one is the same in both warrior and knight, they do not however need some little bit of extra patk instead of all the pdef they can get. Most of the time you add them to party for their Plunders and Half-Kills. Not for their regular swing dmg.
If you dont want badly geared dynasty ppl set the lvl limit to atleast 86, hopefully they are atleast in immortal, yes no element sucks, but atleast they arent in low s grade.
Add good tanks to friendlist, party mostly with them.
Make your enchanter realize that ppl in bad gear or that are squishy, can take Knight harmony and be just fine.
I always tell the enchanter to give Othells knight harmony, if the Othell doesnt agree, it only takes him being one or two shotted before he comes around. Othells need the crit rate/dmg bonus, that one is the same in both warrior and knight, they do not however need some little bit of extra patk instead of all the pdef they can get. Most of the time you add them to party for their Plunders and Half-Kills. Not for their regular swing dmg.
^this.
Off-topic:
Btw, that the first thing i ask any enchanter, give me knight, o still don't understand how they didn't catch up on that, most rogues will go for knight.
OP:
As an Othell Rogue I always have a BREZ scroll on me for the healer. Healing is a thankless job, also a tough one to do correctly. In the event of full party wipe, you'll see many players BSOE (very selfish), me I hit Hide, Brez the healer.
Treat those good healers well, they are few and far between.
healer is a KEY class just like the tank. unlike a dd which has almost no succes/fail effect on the entire part healer/tanks are key.
thats why healers/tanks will ALWAYS get a group. which is a definitive positive. (i used to main a tyrr and getting laughed at when joining a harnak 3rd room asking for dd, or gog parties was sad lol)
sure there are some bad parts to being so important, for example, if u suck just a little bit then u SUCKKKKKKK alot. however if ur a little bit good, u will be seen as GOOOOOOOOD.
all other problems are just there cuz u REFUSE to fix them. get a clan, get a constant, problems solved.
I dont read all reply, but i must say something important to everyone.
Healer are not the only one who must heal and protect other. it's the Iss job too, to focus on party members and use heal too on party member, especially in soa when mob launch critik aoe skills on your party.
Iam iss myself and iam using 3 kind of skill for pve in party like teredor soa harnak.
First debuff skill for lower p def m def all time ( single one + plurial one)
Second heal skil
Third ( paralyze , transfrom, hold) on mob when i see them ready to launch critikal attack.
80% players ingame dont know how to play their class and most important their role in party and their limits .. It's the big problem...:mad:
Well all of that just for people understand healer must be assit by Iss class in all pve party lvl 85 ++
I dont read all reply, but i must say something important to everyone.
Healer are not the only one who must heal and protect other. it's the Iss job too, to focus on party members and use heal too on party member, especially in soa when mob launch critik aoe skills on your party.
Iam iss myself and iam using 3 kind of skill for pve in party like teredor soa harnak.
First debuff skill for lower p def m def all time ( single one + plurial one)
Second heal skil
Third ( paralyze , transfrom, hold) on mob when i see them ready to launch critikal attack.
80% players ingame dont know how to play their class and most important their role in party and their limits .. It's the big problem...:mad:
Well all of that just for people understand healer must be assit by Iss class in all pve party lvl 85 ++
I let an Iss die on purpose at Harnak just to confirm how noob/lazy he is that he wouldn't even heal himself.
I'm a dagger but I understand the OP's feelings. Sometimes I play a SE as a primary healer/recharger/stigmaer and indeed some ppl are seriously brain damaged.
My advice is, if you don't wanna join big clans, join a small but GOOD clan. People who know how to play. Hint: KoreanFriends ;). Also, as some ppl alredy mentioned, every time you party with good players (a good tank, good DDs etc), always add them to friend list, this way you will reach to a point that all the parties u get into will be good parties.
I have a level 79 healer that I would love to level and awaken, but I quit the game about a month before GoD came out and when I came back late last week that account was completely stripped.
I mean there was nothing on it. Everything was either taken or deleted.
I have never shared my account info and I use a fairly long and varied password. I have no idea how my account got stripped AND I can't even submit a ticket about it. Every time I go to submit a ticket the client tells me the petition system is down and to try again later.
If anyone is interested in getting a healer back on track then feel free to shoot an in-game mail to Sunsur. I won't actually be on that character much, but if I get some support then I'll reply to any emails. Don't send me any items or adena. If you want to help me with that kind of thing just say that and I'll pm you back
If enough people are interested then I'll gladly ***** my healing self out.
Edit: You could also send a mail to Otatsku, which is the character I'm currently leveling on a different account. Before anyone asks - I can't level a new character on my healer account because I had all of the character slots full and it takes a week to delete them. Since I have literally zero money I can't even try to speed a character up to use the free lucky armor/weapon packs, or else that's exactly what I would be doing.
I stopped bothering trying to plvl myself like I used to and started joining random groups to XP with over the past week. So far it's been great, I've made decent xp and good players on FL.
I had a couple of little problems like a party that wouldn't XP without their 7th DD but once I said I was leaving wouldn't stop... so after repeated warning I gave them 10 mins and left and let em die. Also got blame for getting some extra mobs etc in GoG but was much better after we got an ISS that did crowd control. It is annoying when you get moaned at for pty wipe because ppl don't assist or pull extra mobs, but it happens.
I think the difference with me is I don't care about lost XP so I don't notice it, it's part of the game, most of the time I PR if I predict a wipe coming anyway. Also I've geared my toon right so I'm not 'squishy' like most healers seem to think they need to be. Even the worst mobs don't hurt too much through 3k p.def (2k with wiz) and 16k HP.
Healer is the most intensive class I've ever played in L2, it's hard work and often thankless, but it's very rewarding when played right.
I guess it's true what they say "A party is only as good as you make it".
every class has issues, for example im a wynn and in my CP i can outdmg any other DD but it took me time to understand my class again (was spectral master for years) and realize im not a natural DD but more of party assistant since :
1. wynn properly configured is the 2nd class that can handle the most damage(is tricky to get tho)
2. all my debuffs are needed to assist tanks/healers aka mezmerize mobs, cut their cast, exile or mass exile mobs until tank can aggro them or cuz improved AI they target the healer very fast.
3. learn the zone so i can assist as mage or melee
4. i can pseudo/assist tank with my tank summon when needed
5. make sure my ranged DD dont get the aggro or bring mass agro to myself when tank DC/is not on pt(not in soa but powerlevel places 84-)
so even is as wynn i wont lose to any other DD in dps im more useful as multitask party assist (aka i care for pt members and summon do thier job wich is take the crap out of mobs). same apply to almost all classes.
so is not enough in 85+ press f1 f2 100 times, you need to understand and learn when/how/why to use any of your skills or you will be useless regardless of your class and a free frag in PVP, boters usually sucks so much in pvp that is sad, especially in magmeld since many "BRs" here. lol many of those "BRs" clans need up to 5 full parties(85+) to kill my CP jajaja they are so sad
so dont be afraid of loose some xp experimenting, it will pay good later when you really need it
I think everyone should carry a BRez and people can take turns using it.
It's definitely not fair to see it as something healers should deal with, it will only get worse as people start hitting their 90's when even 1% of XP is seriously hard to come by.
I stopped bothering trying to plvl myself like I used to and started joining random groups to XP with over the past week. So far it's been great, I've made decent xp and good players on FL.
I had a couple of little problems like a party that wouldn't XP without their 7th DD but once I said I was leaving wouldn't stop... so after repeated warning I gave them 10 mins and left and let em die. Also got blame for getting some extra mobs etc in GoG but was much better after we got an ISS that did crowd control. It is annoying when you get moaned at for pty wipe because ppl don't assist or pull extra mobs, but it happens.
I think the difference with me is I don't care about lost XP so I don't notice it, it's part of the game, most of the time I PR if I predict a wipe coming anyway. Also I've geared my toon right so I'm not 'squishy' like most healers seem to think they need to be. Even the worst mobs don't hurt too much through 3k p.def (2k with wiz) and 16k HP.
Healer is the most intensive class I've ever played in L2, it's hard work and often thankless, but it's very rewarding when played right.
I guess it's true what they say "A party is only as good as you make it".
How did you get to 3k pdef? I only got to 2.8k on mine >.<
I'm a dagger but I understand the OP's feelings. Sometimes I play a SE as a primary healer/recharger/stigmaer and indeed some ppl are seriously brain damaged.
My advice is, if you don't wanna join big clans, join a small but GOOD clan. People who know how to play. Hint: Korean Friends ;). Also, as some ppl alredy mentioned, every time you party with good players (a good tank, good DDs etc), always add them to friend list, this way you will reach to a point that all the parties u get into will be good parties.
lol ZolteR <3
log more often in game~ catch up people's average level in clan! U way too slow!
And thanks for referring our baby clan lol
*BACK TO TOPIC*
To help you feel better - ISS will get 50% rez and can be enchanted so approximately 70% rez or so will be available from them.
This kind of rants have had commonly raised by the healers in Korea as well.
Currently, TBH, as a healer in random group, it is hard to expect a BREZ...
My suggestion is try make more contacts in your friends list. As a healer you will know who is competitive ((strong/smart)) player. Make friends and try to invite them in party. If terrible player, put them in the ignore list (NO NO list). With strong players (or at least people who know what to do) you would be able to exp easy and pleasantly.
Anyway... good luck... and... we always open for nice healer in our clan! LOL
Please consider joing Korean Friends (Chronos server) - competitive salary, nice accommodation provided, annual leave, health care and other welfare benefits are provided! At least 3 hours play a day are required! ><
How did you get to 3k pdef? I only got to 2.8k on mine >.<
Pls share tips :D
PM if you dont want it public.
clanskills,clanleader buff/turtle probly =o
Clanless with no turtle or twilight etc. :p
Can't remember exact p.def but I've got slightly over 3k p.def with knights harmony. With wizard and sonatas I've got 2-2.2k p.def depending on if I'm using my Vorpal for the extra element resist.
WTB more ISS with Rythms so I don't have to keep taking Wizard's harmony.
About brain damaged people.
Is that normal that the healer says he/she needs to go afk beforehand, goes afk thereafter confiding that party members have read party chat, returns to find the party wiped and gets insulted by said idiot party members?
I'm trying to ignore my short-tempered side and have a good laugh - one death is not a big deal after all -, but it hurts that healers get the most spite when a party fails for some reason.
Yes healer is the most critical class in the game IMO. The one toon that can make a bad party decent or a decent party bad. The one who gets targeted first manytimes in pvp (although i question tactics sometimes).
Personally I take a 20% ISS rez when I die at lvl 89, I played SE years back and dished em out, so I have no problem taking them. This is all the motivation you need to make sure you don't get in over your head. My concern is that the party doesnt die, every now and then someone will have a brez but im not picky.
Yes, there are many nub toons, in SOA everyday I rez other parties that wipe, so much so, that now I am ranked for rez cast! Many players go for a big weapon while having crappy non ely armor (1 shot) and 1 shots make it tough for the healer agt times, especially in a crappy party where folks are getting 1 shotted left and right. I love it when ranged die while you have a tree up, but they make sure to stay outta healing range and force range.
Seperate rant: Bound twilight... really... you plan to go 120/120/120 I think not!
Ranged DD's need to realize they should stay at range from the mobs, but remain on the same side of the mobs as the healers.
Dont run and stand away from the healer, aggro an extra group and wonder why the healer couldnt heal you in time...
And for all the archers in Harnak, the room is circular, stand on the same side as the healer, your Yul force helps with mp regen.
Or stand in the middle of the mobs and think you'll survive the aoe. Sometimes it sucks to be a healer because one crit and boom a death and "OMFG HEALER DIDN'T HEALZ MEH!!"
Also, people don't understand that the healer can only be as good as the weakest link in the party. It requires 'team effort' for the party to work, but almost 75% of the people go straight ahead and blame the healer that it is their fault that they died; when clearly that the other members in the party didn't do their job either :rolleyes:
Or stand in the middle of the mobs and think you'll survive the aoe. Sometimes it sucks to be a healer because one crit and boom a death and "OMFG HEALER DIDN'T HEALZ MEH!!"
/facepalm
Most common oneliner from me when doing SoA daily random party on healer.
"**** happens in dynasty"
Aka, no, noone, no matter how awesome of a healer, can heal a oneshot.
Like the Tyr Warrior that asked me why I PR'ed after the group pulled 4 reptilicon groups on us, coz he "could have just aoe'd em all".
Fail to realize that the daggers in party cant take aoes from 4 elite mobs lol.
Tree + Fairy + Knights and dagger should be ok on 4 sets. Doesnt need the extra damage from warriors IMO. I would just let them die personally, seems like thats the best teacher anyways.
On a seperate note, not having to do with anyones post inparticular.
If you want to be a very average healer then follow the blueprints that others lay out for you like on threads like this. A good healer will disregard blueprints and create his/her own based on hot bar and situation.
IMO a good healer is not one that is 'fast' to spam, but one that uses his/her tools to the best of their ability.
IMO healer is one of the few classes that are not decided by gear, but by understanding of game, and healing the exact same way for every situation will make you very 1 dimensional.
Also, people don't understand that the healer can only be as good as the weakest link in the party. It requires 'team effort' for the party to work, but almost 75% of the people go straight ahead and blame the healer that it is their fault that they died; when clearly that the other members in the party didn't do their job either :rolleyes:
I disagree, I think healer can make the weakest link much better, by creating an environment where their margin for error is much better than it would be otherwise. I think the biggest problem with many healers is that they truly think sitting back by ranged spamming on tank is most effecient way of healing, IN MANY SITUATIONS IT'S NOT IMO.
Healer is a defensive toon I think more people need to gear it up very good defesively, I see many that will speen 100+ mills on weapon before maxing out armors etc.
I do agree that many people rely on healer too much, dying without using UD type skills etc or melee mob till death when can step away if low, or nukers not grabbing mp pots making healer regen mp in tight situations.
I stopped bothering trying to plvl myself like I used to and started joining random groups to XP with over the past week. So far it's been great, I've made decent xp and good players on FL.
I had a couple of little problems like a party that wouldn't XP without their 7th DD but once I said I was leaving wouldn't stop... so after repeated warning I gave them 10 mins and left and let em die. Also got blame for getting some extra mobs etc in GoG but was much better after we got an ISS that did crowd control. It is annoying when you get moaned at for pty wipe because ppl don't assist or pull extra mobs, but it happens.
I think the difference with me is I don't care about lost XP so I don't notice it, it's part of the game, most of the time I PR if I predict a wipe coming anyway. Also I've geared my toon right so I'm not 'squishy' like most healers seem to think they need to be. Even the worst mobs don't hurt too much through 3k p.def (2k with wiz) and 16k HP.
Healer is the most intensive class I've ever played in L2, it's hard work and often thankless, but it's very rewarding when played right.
I guess it's true what they say "A party is only as good as you make it".
After all it takes around 30 seconds to find new one, so leave-join-leave-join untill you find decent one for next few hours :]
When I checked the last time (couple of days ago during prime time) there was just 1 group for GoG, 87+ (lol) and couple of H1 and H2 85-86 groups.
I tried to do my own 88+ Harnak/SoA train group, but I faild after 5 minutes with only 3 afk ppl on level 88+ Ive seen in party matching.
Tree + Fairy + Knights and dagger should be ok on 4 sets. Doesnt need the extra damage from warriors IMO. I would just let them die personally, seems like thats the best teacher anyways.
On a seperate note, not having to do with anyones post inparticular.
If you want to be a very average healer then follow the blueprints that others lay out for you like on threads like this. A good healer will disregard blueprints and create his/her own based on hot bar and situation.
IMO a good healer is not one that is 'fast' to spam, but one that uses his/her tools to the best of their ability.
IMO healer is one of the few classes that are not decided by gear, but by understanding of game, and healing the exact same way for every situation will make you very 1 dimensional.
I think you should go try that Fairy+Tree+Knights on the dynasty daggers before you state it like fact.
No dyn dagger can take 4 aoes by reptilicon, and ur trust in tree and fairy is way too strong.
In that party, I doubt even the tyrr warrior could take those hits, one aoe put him down by almost half his hp.
And I dont like dying on healer due to some moron feeling braver and stronger than he really is.
Ppl coming there with second to lowest s grade with no element is asking to be oneshotted though.
It is after all an R grade zone.
I think the levels and class matter more than the armor. The MOBs have very high base attack stats, anyways, so even if you're stacked if you don't have a tank you can get one shotted. MOBs in group zones like SoA use a skill that is very deadly to non-tank classes since GoD release - consider that.
But it doesn't really matter that much since the tank theoretically shouldn't be chain dying there if he's ready for the zone, you can BRez or (God forbid) Chanter Rez the healer, and the healer can rez anything else at a very high XP % recovery. Most people who XP there are used to it by now, and go prepared.
I just make sure I always stay at max range, and many groups SM on the pull to avoid unnecessary and random MOB agro on the pull.
Tree + Fairy + Knights and dagger should be ok on 4 sets. Doesnt need the extra damage from warriors IMO. I would just let them die personally, seems like thats the best teacher anyways.
On a seperate note, not having to do with anyones post inparticular.
If you want to be a very average healer then follow the blueprints that others lay out for you like on threads like this. A good healer will disregard blueprints and create his/her own based on hot bar and situation.
IMO a good healer is not one that is 'fast' to spam, but one that uses his/her tools to the best of their ability.
IMO healer is one of the few classes that are not decided by gear, but by understanding of game, and healing the exact same way for every situation will make you very 1 dimensional.
You're really overrating that archetype.
The Tree of Life is too good, IMO. That is the primary cause for bad healers who are especially bad in PvP.
The only time this kind of situational awareness you refer to comes up is in the upper eschelon zones/spots and in PvP, which is only like 20% of the action in this game. Most healers in DVC, Harnak's, Swamp, and even the lower parts of SoA don't have to do anything but Plant a Tree and fire off some Progressive Heals/Balance Heals here and there, with maybe the odd cure if the tank gets Feared or something.
Healer is one of the easiest classes to play in most PvE situations these days, once you realize that all those buttons don't have to get mashed all the **** time.
Undergeared and terrible players are hard to impossible to heal whether you're terrible or amazing. That's an independent variable that doesn't necessary depend on the skill of the healer. Most healers will try to avoid that kind of extra work. There is enough demand for Live Healers that they can afford to just leave and oftentimes have a group soon afterwards.
I think the levels and class matter more than the armor. The MOBs have very high base attack stats, anyways, so even if you're stacked if you don't have a tank you can get one shotted. MOBs in group zones like SoA use a skill that is very deadly to non-tank classes since GoD release - consider that.
yes both are true from experience. you know, at low level you can see mobs in soa red/yellow and you do half damage to them, i think they do more damage to you just because of level difference. i have the same 270 resist earth with no buffs, the higher i get in level, less damage i've been received. yes tank is the only one that can tank there, with his shield defense and fast cleanse.
Healer is one of the easiest classes to play in most PvE situations these days, once you realize that all those buttons don't have to get mashed all the **** time.
i dont know if its true after 85, my dual subclass has like double the number of skills than my mage, a lot more active skills than my enchanter too if you dont count buffs. i wont say its hard to play but it requires more attention to surroundings to move away, you also have to look constantly at hp/mp of each player and you have to be quick in response too. any other class can almost get away with that, with a few exceptions but as you can see, in most random groups there is someone that constantly is taking high damage and the usual balance/progressive/tree dont have fast reuse.
I think you should go try that Fairy+Tree+Knights on the dynasty daggers before you state it like fact.
No dyn dagger can take 4 aoes by reptilicon, and ur trust in tree and fairy is way too strong.
In that party, I doubt even the tyrr warrior could take those hits, one aoe put him down by almost half his hp.
And I dont like dying on healer due to some moron feeling braver and stronger than he really is.
Yeah, there is always going to be a breaking point on the gear, having 2 dynasty daggers in party at the same time is not the status quo and i wouldnt use that as a variable. If this was the case in early post then you're right, thats just a nub party that I would leave.
For a healer in a stressed situation, I would say (I've played healer as sub, soon to be dual) consider yourself first. If you can't keep yourself alive, PR. If you get one shot, improve your armor. Everything else is secondary. Noobs will never learn if you work your **** off trying to keep them up. So many DD think they are invincible if there's a healer, so they just DD all over, DD'ing like a DD, DD DD DD, one shot wtf, healer?!
It's like soccer (football w/e) a good game is when your goalie never has to make a save. Because the team is strong, playing together, and doing their part.
And if you say things in chat and no one seems to listen, they are either in ventrillo (ahem, clans r good) or don't understand english.
Randomishly related: I tried to explain to a noob that KS'ing a daily from a toon who can clear a room (in IT) is bad exp for everyone, go KS someone else, and she replied: "quest i finish, again i do tomorrow." It took her about a half-hour to kill 50 mobs for 3%. Probably bought a rune from the NC store too, to max exp.
People do not understand how to play, a definite downside of super fast leveling. Not having to struggle for YEARS with your class, learning your limits. NC giving noobs buffs that make them OP until 86, then vulnerable as your birthday suit. Everyone thinks they are so super powerful, then Awaken and get pwned and pwned and pwned and never once understand. "I hit attack, why I die? Bad healer."
Honestly, the healer class is one of the easiest to play, and also the most boring one. When I came to play to retail I made a challange to myself: I would prove myself that healer was a easy class to play, since I've never played it on retail like servers. Guess it worked out cause only people that cant read skills and with a turtle reaction time cant play it. I'm lvl 88 on Healer and I got bored of it so I'm lvling a sub ( I know lvl 88 to 89 is so easy but meh), now I only make thoses daily that dont use vitality (pretty much kartia solo + mines for adenas)
For groups that dont give a **** about the healer exp: I always carry my brez, and I also carry some normal rez for those guys that dont care about the others exp, its so funny to make them cry for a brez.
PS: Always make 87+ groups, at least they have Immortal or good vorpal/vesper ++ with elements set
I'm Aeore and I feel like u say. If someone die is your fault, no matter if he is afk, if u are the tank in this party cause the tank dont do his job, even because of he is far far away of the rest of the party. It will always be healer fault.
But, if party works good and nobody dies, it will be thanks of dd's cause they are good enough, no matter if u are good enough too.
Anyway...im agree with the person who opened the post. And sorry for my english but i wanted to share this feeling too :)
Honestly, the healer class is one of the easiest to play, and also the most boring one. When I came to play to retail I made a challange to myself: I would prove myself that healer was a easy class to play, since I've never played it on retail like servers. Guess it worked out cause only people that cant read skills and with a turtle reaction time cant play it. I'm lvl 88 on Healer and I got bored of it so I'm lvling a sub ( I know lvl 88 to 89 is so easy but meh), now I only make thoses daily that dont use vitality (pretty much kartia solo + mines for adenas)
For groups that dont give a **** about the healer exp: I always carry my brez, and I also carry some normal rez for those guys that dont care about the others exp, its so funny to make them cry for a brez.
PS: Always make 87+ groups, at least they have Immortal or good vorpal/vesper ++ with elements set
Are you kidding me?????? The easiest class to play huh???? I guess your idea of easy is finding a party letting ppl die and the PRing out of there, because in no way is this the easiest class to play. Either that or you have never done Kartia, SoA, Harnak, or GoG upper. You ppl that say it's the easiest class to play are fricken MORONSSSSSSSS, or aren't even a healer, PERIOD. The tree and fairy are AIs NEVER under any circumstance rely on those to heal ppl. If you've never had anyone die in your parties then yeah maybe you can say it's the easiest class to play, but I can Guarantee not a single healer on any server can say this at all. It just really ****** me off when ppl think they can play a healer without the party dying even though ppl do get one-shot, so before your run your mouths/fingers, you should think before you type stupid stuff like this.
Kartia is trivial on a healer, I usually DPS half the time in Kartia. Really if you're having trouble in Kartia or find it difficulty then you aren't in a position to tell anyone how hard this class is.
Harnak is not hard to heal. I can do it one handed while texting, tweeting, and facebooking. In fact last time I did Harnak 3 the only things I cast were Balance Heal and Tree of Life. True story. Okay maybe I cast Progressive now and then. Tank didn't have crap gear, though...
SoA is harder because of the way the MOB agro works there. MOBs randomly turn and hit people for massive amounts of damage even if they have no cast or hit anything. Like, they can literally stand there and a MOB will turn around and runto/cast at them - it's happened to me on Healer, Enchanter, and Wizard. In that case healing is harder, not necessarily because it's hard but rather becase this game's threat system is broken. That's why Tank Hates were changed to Target Lock (and made unresistable, IIRC) a while back. The Agro system is broken and they aren't really trying to fix it, just work around it. The same thing happens in Harnak as well, but it's trivial to manage there cause those MOBs are cakewalk.
If your going with bad groups and complaining that healing is hard that's your fault. Leave bad groups and go XP with people who care more. I've used both Immortal and Vesper with 217 Earth Defense and the MOBs in SoA still do comparable damage. That's cause of the way the Attribute System works and the fact that you're taking a P.Def hit when you go down to Vesper.
All of youa re funny. You are discussiong something without any specifications.
Harnak - ok, that´s too easy location
SoA - which soa? Reptilikons? How many groups? 8 groups in reptilikons is not that easy. 1-2 groups? Healer can sleep there
GoG - single target or pulling?
Btw all of you speaks about low lvl locations. One can expect you are around lvl 90 max. But there are harder locations...
Flame on:
easiest toons are DDs. But I admit that competition with enchanters is really great.
Are you kidding me?????? The easiest class to play huh???? I guess your idea of easy is finding a party letting ppl die and the PRing out of there, because in no way is this the easiest class to play. Either that or you have never done Kartia, SoA, Harnak, or GoG upper. You ppl that say it's the easiest class to play are fricken MORONSSSSSSSS, or aren't even a healer, PERIOD. The tree and fairy are AIs NEVER under any circumstance rely on those to heal ppl. If you've never had anyone die in your parties then yeah maybe you can say it's the easiest class to play, but I can Guarantee not a single healer on any server can say this at all. It just really ****** me off when ppl think they can play a healer without the party dying even though ppl do get one-shot, so before your run your mouths/fingers, you should think before you type stupid stuff like this.
Agreed,healer isn't by any means easy. I pretty much know for a fact anyone who has been the awakened healer has had people die and of no fault of the healer and got a verbal lashing for it. Mine's 86 and I've lost a lot of interest in unfortunately and moved over to my 86 dagger and have been leveling my 78 nuker lately again. I guess I just want to try find something else I like as awakened.
Kartia is trivial on a healer, I usually DPS half the time in Kartia. Really if you're having trouble in Kartia or find it difficulty then you aren't in a position to tell anyone how hard this class is.
Harnak is not hard to heal. I can do it one handed while texting, tweeting, and facebooking. In fact last time I did Harnak 3 the only things I cast were Balance Heal and Tree of Life. True story. Okay maybe I cast Progressive now and then. Tank didn't have crap gear, though...
SoA is harder because of the way the MOB agro works there. MOBs randomly turn and hit people for massive amounts of damage even if they have no cast or hit anything. Like, they can literally stand there and a MOB will turn around and runto/cast at them - it's happened to me on Healer, Enchanter, and Wizard. In that case healing is harder, not necessarily because it's hard but rather becase this game's threat system is broken. That's why Tank Hates were changed to Target Lock (and made unresistable, IIRC) a while back. The Agro system is broken and they aren't really trying to fix it, just work around it. The same thing happens in Harnak as well, but it's trivial to manage there cause those MOBs are cakewalk.
If your going with bad groups and complaining that healing is hard that's your fault. Leave bad groups and go XP with people who care more. I've used both Immortal and Vesper with 217 Earth Defense and the MOBs in SoA still do comparable damage. That's cause of the way the Attribute System works and the fact that you're taking a P.Def hit when you go down to Vesper.
Well apparently you haven't been in there when the end boss one-shots a certain person, I've been in there where one character has been targeted and it keeps one-shotting that character, it's hard for a healer to heal, keep MP up, debuff, and rez someone 10+ times at the end boss. I still don't know how you can say it's all that easy. And yes you can probably do it one handed because you use group heal, balance heal, progressive heal, all of which are AOE heals so whatever. I do agree though it does seem to get a bit easier in certain places the higher the lvl the healer is, but still I'm not gonna go and say it's the "easiest class to play" when all daggers have to do is spam their spoil skill (whatever it's called now "plunder" I think) and spam a few half kill skills, or a feoh wizard who just spams skills and then complains when they are out of MP.
Sorry, but Kartia is not hard. It's only hard for groups which have people with the incorrect number of chromosomes.
You're right, I have barely ever done a group like that, becuase I make sure my groups buff correctly. Knight harmony to all close range melee classes at Stage 5 in the last room or I PR plix and thx. On my Iss I just do it myself and ignore them if they mention it. My way or the highway for those PUG'r groups.
When you get hit, kite out, target drops/P.Def buff yourself, etc.
Nukers and Archers should be untouchable in that instance, if they have a clue. I've never died in there on Aeore.
And mana isn't a problem I routinely run groups with 3 nukers in it and never have MP problems in there.
SOE you have a bit of a point for the reasons I mentioned. Harnak and Kartia. Sorry, Not seeing it...
L2 isn't really short Awakened healers. Issue is Healers suck to solo and with it being so easy to level to 85 a lot of them leveled DDs or Dual Classes that they play a lot of the time in lieu of their healers. Additionally, a lot of healers are boxed/alts as well. But there are tons there.
Tank shortage is a bigger issue than healer shortage, which isn't an issue. Classes that are fundamental to grouping tend to be a bit pickier in where they go, what do they, and who they go with. They have a bit more power when it comes to that, because where are you going to level decently without a healer or tank? I guess you can always make a summoner group and go plow, though...
I think if the healer nukes weren't gimped after awakening compared to Inquisitor skills more would plaly their healers actively.
Friend of mine plays an Aeore and he's rolling up an Archer cause the healer is terrible solo compared to pretty much everything else and every groups forming easily finds one, cause there are tons of them. Maybe this is a server-specific issue. I can see it being an issue on the new server, since just getting a healer to 44 is a lesson in frustration compared to DD classes.
Trenshero, what about tanks vanguard stance aswell? There was a ton of tanks before GOD and now they are the main shortage cause they purely suck with their dmg, and they could be dmg machines before (SOS and FI+ tribunal/judgement + defense agression and hate aura + Hex from SK ).
If we consider all 36 classes...a evas templar actually could have great dmg output considering all the existing classes, but now the tank stands at the bottom of physical prowess. And on top of that they lost their healing (vampire) capabilities. (reason why i quit tank, it lost it's hybrid ability)
The healer is more of an hassle on pve indeed but the tank has such a crap dmg output not many people roll it, and it has no offensive options at all.
They lost their bow capabilities. the blunt was much more powerful for SK and PK than it is now for Sigel knight.
The only reason i'd take a tank for pve it's cause /attack works..slowly..but it's so darn awful how they are stuck with no choice in pve.
I don't die in there myself, it's just that it gets annoying when ppl get one shot and I have to always rez them, and then right at the end if they aren't alive they don't get the XP. Also I never take knights because casting spd is always an issue, if my casting spd isn't 1600+ I know it and it sucks when it's lower than that.
Also I never take knights because casting spd is always an issue, if my casting spd isn't 1600+ I know it and it sucks when it's lower than that.
It's an issue only if you believe that Radiant Heal and Brilliant Heal are your main healing skills.
Are you kidding me?????? The easiest class to play huh???? I guess your idea of easy is finding a party letting ppl die and the PRing out of there, because in no way is this the easiest class to play. Either that or you have never done Kartia, SoA, Harnak, or GoG upper. You ppl that say it's the easiest class to play are fricken MORONSSSSSSSS, or aren't even a healer, PERIOD. The tree and fairy are AIs NEVER under any circumstance rely on those to heal ppl. If you've never had anyone die in your parties then yeah maybe you can say it's the easiest class to play, but I can Guarantee not a single healer on any server can say this at all. It just really ****** me off when ppl think they can play a healer without the party dying even though ppl do get one-shot, so before your run your mouths/fingers, you should think before you type stupid stuff like this.
umad?
I'm a lvl 88 Aeore Healer on Naia Server and I actually think god**** healer is easy to play. I did Kartia today for example, the only death I had in my party was a Tyrr at Stage 7 'cause he went straight to the boss and got the aggro of him + mobs, after ressing him I just had pretty much to give some Progressive Heals to the melee's. Yesterday I was in SoA Rept hard exping with 2 nukers/1 yul/1 summoner/1 tank/1 iss + me. The tank was grabbing 6 groups at each pull and the tank only died like 2 times cause of the mass crit AoE from Elites.
Healer is so easy to play that its even boring. Healer its only hard to play if you are one of those healers that came from PvP servers where the only thing you need to do is -> Balance Heal + Major Group Heal -> Party still alive.
Different people got different ideas/difficulty on a certain class. If I said playing Healer is easy, then I guess its only for me 'cause everyday I heal its always the same thing.
EDIT: Baldric +1, guess you are used to the same kind of parties that I have everyday.
Also I never take knights because casting spd is always an issue, if my casting spd isn't 1600+ I know it and it sucks when it's lower than that.
That's a TERRIBLE reason not to take knights.
Personally I don't take knights because of the skill re-use, mp consumption, mcrit and m.def on wizards is important. Cast speed is highly overrated on healers anyway, especially in pve. I usually am fine with 1400 cast.
For the people saying healer is an easy class to play, I'd just like to say it must be great to be in groups full of toons in top gear who never get hit.
In non-OP parties Tyr/Summoner/Nuker/Rogue/ISS can go afk for bio etc no problem, healer looks away from the screen for 1min and people are dead, simple as that.
I've got 19 skills bound to keys on my norstomo and 2 on my mouse, I don't even have room for stuff like Radiant heal, Rebirth, Crystal Regen, Mass Sleep, Dissolve or ANY buffs on my hotkeys.
That's 26 skills regularly used not including macros or buffs.
For the people saying healer is an easy class to play, I'd just like to say it must be great to be in groups full of toons in top gear who never get hit.
In non-OP parties Tyr/Summoner/Nuker/Rogue/ISS can go afk for bio etc no problem, healer looks away from the screen for 1min and people are dead, simple as that.
I've got 19 skills bound to keys on my norstomo and 2 on my mouse, I don't even have room for stuff like Radiant heal, Rebirth, Crystal Regen, Mass Sleep, Dissolve or ANY buffs on my hotkeys.
That's 26 skills regularly used not including macros or buffs.
I laughed. A ton of those skills are situational and you aren't primarily DDing when you're in a group, since I can only assume you added nukes and crap like that into that number. Buffs don't matter becuase Iss Enchanters overwrite all of them in a group. We're talking about grouping here. And I can't remember the last time I used Radiant Heal when I wasn't soloing. Even at Reptiles in SoA a majority of my healing comes from Balance and Progressive, with a Brilliant here and there.
But if it makes you feel like the Healer has a higher skill cap or some crap, then more power to you.
Healers are more annoying to play than difficult, a lot of that due to social aspects in grouping and some of it due to the fact that you now have to do everything that you and an Elder could double team back in the day (probably the primary reason for them implementing Tree of Life).
And you're right. Maybe some people here do play in better groups, but that's your choice. Making things harder for yourself doesn't mean the class is hard to play. It just means you are a masochist.
In PvP healers require a bit more skill to play for obvious reasons. People who can't get heals usually cannot win, therefore all kill the healer. That's why most decent PvP groups have two.
It is bad for the healers indeed when both healers die and the ISS is the only 1 alive to rez the healers. But if the second healer is alive even with his old rez skill the XP loss is not that big.
I laughed. A ton of those skills are situational and you aren't primarily DDing when you're in a group, since I can only assume you added nukes and crap like that into that number. Buffs don't matter becuase Iss Enchanters overwrite all of them in a group. We're talking about grouping here. And I can't remember the last time I used Radiant Heal when I wasn't soloing. Even at Reptiles in SoA a majority of my healing comes from Balance and Progressive, with a Brilliant here and there.
But if it makes you feel like the Healer has a higher skill cap or some crap, then more power to you.
Healers are more annoying to play than difficult, a lot of that due to social aspects in grouping and some of it due to the fact that you now have to do everything that you and an Elder could double team back in the day (probably the primary reason for them implementing Tree of Life).
And you're right. Maybe some people here do play in better groups, but that's your choice. Making things harder for yourself doesn't mean the class is hard to play. It just means you are a masochist.
In PvP healers require a bit more skill to play for obvious reasons. People who can't get heals usually cannot win, therefore all kill the healer. That's why most decent PvP groups have two.
I think you are underestimating healers in your post.
I laughed. A ton of those skills are situational and you aren't primarily DDing when you're in a group, since I can only assume you added nukes and crap like that into that number. Buffs don't matter becuase Iss Enchanters overwrite all of them in a group. We're talking about grouping here. And I can't remember the last time I used Radiant Heal when I wasn't soloing. Even at Reptiles in SoA a majority of my healing comes from Balance and Progressive, with a Brilliant here and there.
But if it makes you feel like the Healer has a higher skill cap or some crap, then more power to you.
Healers are more annoying to play than difficult, a lot of that due to social aspects in grouping and some of it due to the fact that you now have to do everything that you and an Elder could double team back in the day (probably the primary reason for them implementing Tree of Life).
And you're right. Maybe some people here do play in better groups, but that's your choice. Making things harder for yourself doesn't mean the class is hard to play. It just means you are a masochist.
In PvP healers require a bit more skill to play for obvious reasons. People who can't get heals usually cannot win, therefore all kill the healer. That's why most decent PvP groups have two.
I agree healers are annoying to play, but it's not easy like just attacking/spamming skills with a DD. Compared to all classes in game healer are probably the most difficult and require the most attention. It doesn't mean idiots can't play healers or that people who play healers are better than anyone else, just simply you need to pay attention and play at a decent level to be a competent healer.
In most areas unless your party are in amazing gear you have to react almost instantly to heal the minute people get hit since mobs easily hit most people for 60-70% of their HP in one hit. A bad healer will get even a half decent party wiped easily, a good healer can keep even the worst of parties going.
As for the 26 skills yeah they're needed, I like having 1 setup for PVE, PVP and Oly so my fingers move to the right buttons automatically when I need to use skills since I have no programs to automate stuff for me.
Nukes are good to use even in general PvE since they remove aggro and knock mobs back to the tank.
Lets see, wheres the useless lol skills that don't get used regularly out of my 26: Panic heal, Radiant Purge, Brilliant Heal, Party Celestial, Single Celestial, Progressive Heal, Tree, Sleep, Mark of Lumi, Dark Backfire, Sustain, Fairy of Life, Blessed Resurrection, Noblesse Blessing, Dark veil, Mass Dark Veil, Dark Rain, Dark Force, Giants Favour. Also my mouse wheel clicks left and right for target self and target next or party1.
Skills I have to mouse click are: Rebirth, Crystal Regen, Radiant Heal, Mass sleep, Dissolve, Erase, Dark Devour, PR, Ally Rez and buffs/buff macro. They're all situational.
healer is a KEY class just like the tank. unlike a dd which has almost no succes/fail effect on the entire part healer/tanks are key.
thats why healers/tanks will ALWAYS get a group. which is a definitive positive. (i used to main a tyrr and getting laughed at when joining a harnak 3rd room asking for dd, or gog parties was sad lol)
sure there are some bad parts to being so important, for example, if u suck just a little bit then u SUCKKKKKKK alot. however if ur a little bit good, u will be seen as GOOOOOOOOD.
all other problems are just there cuz u REFUSE to fix them. get a clan, get a constant, problems solved.
Get a good clan, and all your problems will be solved, it's only the guys who ''solo'' the entire game, and partying with randoms that fails & complains about ''nobody takes Tyrr/othel''
A good clan will help you,a guy who is clanless has no chance to pass 86.
Get a good clan, and all your problems will be solved, it's only the guys who ''solo'' the entire game, and partying with randoms that fails & complains about ''nobody takes Tyrr/othel''
A good clan will help you,a guy who is clanless has no chance to pass 86.
I will disagree with that. I went from 85 to 88, clanless, playing casually:D taking random parties.
Get a good clan, and all your problems will be solved, it's only the guys who ''solo'' the entire game, and partying with randoms that fails & complains about ''nobody takes Tyrr/othel''
A good clan will help you,a guy who is clanless has no chance to pass 86.
As Yunalesca said, I'm 13% off 90 I've been in a clan only 2 weeks of that and had about 2 clan parties, I've lost more XP than that in pvp/siege. Almost all of my XP has been made in random groups, it's also much easier to get random groups than clan ones.
Before that, back in Gracia I went 79/76/77 > 85/80/80/80 90% solo, 10% clan parties.
Before that from C4 onward I went 73 -> 79/76/77 70% solo, 30% with clan parties.
I wouldn't say no to a constant or regular group at all though, they're a VERY good way of levelling and pvping.
I laughed. A ton of those skills are situational and you aren't primarily DDing when you're in a group, since I can only assume you added nukes and crap like that into that number.
They are situational, that's true, but when you are in that situation, you will want fast access to them.
For example, if your tank pulls 8+ groups at Reptilikon, those 4 nukes can be very useful (I usually start healing the tank with Mass Dark Veil on the pull, then I may use the other nukes depending on how lucky the tank is in keeping aggroing the proper mobs).
And I can't remember the last time I used Radiant Heal when I wasn't soloing.
I don't even have it learned.
But if it makes you feel like the Healer has a higher skill cap or some crap, then more power to you.
Healers are more annoying to play than difficult,
Where "[intentionally] difficult" is a part of that "[really] annoying".
Back in H5 I could do pulling+debuffing+crowd control+healing (as a single healer in DV or LoA party) with just like 6 skills. Now I need to use the triple amount of different skills to do a third of that job.
Cardinals had more Healer skills than EEs (and debuffs), even with Promanders which Cardinals also got. Weren't you an EE before GoD? Different perspective. The healer I play was a Cardinal, not an Elder. Cardinals always had enough skills to fill up 3+ bars especially when you added in the Inquisitor skills which don't require transformation now.
Post awakening healing is easier than pre-awakening for me. You just have to filter the noise.
You've missed the point. Back in H5 you might be using just like 6 skills and still do a job as a good half of your party. More skills were better, but 6 were still good enough for that.
Now in GoD you have a gazillion of skills, but all you can do in party is to play an HP battery - and the more skills you can use, the better HP battery you are, but you are still playing just an HP battery.
Life of a healer was always difficult,even more difficult in the past where 9 people lifes were depending by him.Unless the party had the right classes/lvls/gear,healer couldnt go afk even for 2 seconds.In pvp,he was the first target by all and he was always rezed by elven or shilien elder with lower % rez.I also guess that people who played healer didnt like to pvp,otherweise they would choose a pvp and not a healing class(atleast in the old chronicles).But the strange thing is,we absolutely need healers in pvp(the ones that created this class because they dont like to pvp :p).
About today,yes mobs hit harder than pvp players(clever korean developers) and healer cant save party when everyone gets 1 shoted unless party has good gear.Solution of today is,bring an iss and brez healer to rez all.
If you as a healer dont want to join a big clan,you are limited to noobie/randoms and non caring players for partys.Dont complain then,it's your choice.Big clans dont mean all are botters and ebayers with op attitude.In a big clan people learn how to organise and win,which affect also the pve part of their gaming and makes healer's life a lot easier.In my party we always brez the healer no matter how many times he died or where.
You've missed the point. Back in H5 you might be using just like 6 skills and still do a job as a good half of your party. More skills were better, but 6 were still good enough for that.
Now in GoD you have a gazillion of skills, but all you can do in party is to play an HP battery - and the more skills you can use, the better HP battery you are, but you are still playing just an HP battery.
You're stating my point.
All you are is an HP battery, the more skills you use, the better HP battery you are.
But you don't need to use 26 skills "regularly" to be a good HP battery. That's where my "using more skills to make it seem like it requires a higher skill cap" comment was derived from. It's a waste of effort, IMO.
The main skills that they did improve in the move from Cardinal to Aeore, are clearly better with lower reuses and HoTs added onto them, in addition to that buffs are better these days. Even with all the skills Cardinal had back then (including Inquisitor skills when the transformation was deprecated) tons of them went unused a majority of the time or were only used in a limited number of situations.
You can heal the average reps group even with more than a few groups being pulled with 5 skills or less still, cause I've done it numerous times. With no MP problems, ever, and no trouble keeping anyone alive except when the MOBs impose unhealable situations (zerg agro switches, 1 shots, etc.).
All you are is an HP battery, the more skills you use, the better HP battery you are.
But you don't need to use 26 skills "regularly" to be a good HP battery. That's where my "using more skills to make it seem like it requires a higher skill cap" comment was derived from. It's a waste of effort, IMO.
The main skills that they did improve in the move from Cardinal to Aeore, are clearly better with lower reuses and HoTs added onto them, in addition to that buffs are better these days. Even with all the skills Cardinal had back then (including Inquisitor skills when the transformation was deprecated) tons of them went unused a majority of the time or were only used in a limited number of situations.
You can heal the average reps group even with more than a few groups being pulled with 5 skills or less still, cause I've done it numerous times. With no MP problems, ever, and no trouble keeping anyone alive except when the MOBs impose unhealable situations (zerg agro switches, 1 shots, etc.).
I didn't say that you needed 26 skills to heal a group, just that there are 26+ skills I use regularly, not including items, macros, actions or most buffs. Unlike you I like to use my class to it's full potential, also I keep only 1 key layout for all situations to build up muscle memory as I don't use programs.
As for the 26 skills take for example the day off work I had on Monday; by 4 in the afternoon I'd done Swamp, 2x group kartia, 1h AOE in rept, 3-4 SOA daily groups, Hanark, 3-4 small pvps and some other groups elsewhere. Over all that I'd used everything, especially since I had to keep pulling mobs onto an SOA group because my tank was too scared to make bigger pulls. Even little things help, like the non target AOE or Knockback to remove aggro or just sleeping adds.
So sit Zzzzzing using your 5 skills as a HP battery in your repetitive group, if you wanna play lazy and boring it's fine. I like to play in a variety of situations and know what works and when, so I'm versatile and ready for the unexpected.
All you are is an HP battery, the more skills you use, the better HP battery you are.
But you don't need to use 26 skills "regularly" to be a good HP battery.
We probably have different expectations for a good HP battery.
And no one was saying about "26 skills regularly". However, you greatly benefit from having 26 skills in your fast reach when you need one of them.
The main skills that they did improve in the move from Cardinal to Aeore, are clearly better with lower reuses and HoTs added onto them, in addition to that buffs are better these days.
But the main skills they did nerf in the move from Cardinal to Aeore, are clearly worse :rolleyes:
Back then, your main healing skill could be Major Heal, and the rest was either situational or MP-saving (if you didn't have an MP-efficient build). Now, the spammable heals just don't cut it. Even Panic Heal might not be fast enough alone, without adding the %-based heals to the mix when they are ready.
Back then, your main skills didn't need to be the healing skills at all. You had debuffs and crowd control that could greatly reduce (if not eliminate, thanks to VR) your healing work.
You can heal the average reps group even with more than a few groups being pulled with 5 skills or less still, cause I've done it numerous times. With no MP problems, ever, and no trouble keeping anyone alive except when the MOBs impose unhealable situations (zerg agro switches, 1 shots, etc.).
Zerg aggro switches are not unhandleable. 1-shots are not unpreventable. Pre-GoD I could take care of both problems by using just one skill, Trance (I could keep tranced the whole DV leeches multipack for as long as it was needed when someone's nuker bubble went wrong).
Now you have 3-4 skills to reduce the risk to others, and much more skills to reduce the risk to you. But almost all those skills have long reuse, you cannot spam them. And your main healing skills now have considerable reuse too, and you need to devote a part of your attention to tracing that reuse too. And with all these new visual effects, you can only see what the mobs cast if you target them, and selective targeting is harder too, because the mobs are higher and fatter, but still do stack.
So, technically, you still can do parts of what you were doing pre-GoD. But it requires much more player skill and attention.
Or a really smart scripting can do that too :rolleyes:
Yes, the long reuse on sleep is the major example of all the bad things they did to healers.I think that was mostly aimed at the spell casters. Pvp on my sps back in the day consisted of sleep nuke sleep nuke sleep nuke sleep nuke win.
Well, I play on healer classes since C3 and I can show you a fact: if you don't like to be blamed or pressured, stop playing healer.
You will never be good enough for anything you do. Even if you try your best, you will do something wrong and this little f***ing thing will ruin your gameplay because the other 6 party members can't be defeated or they get mad.
By the way, I always carry BRESS scrolls with me as well and before any farming party starts to roll, I give like 2-3 to the Iss (when I know them, of course, for randoms it's only 1) and 1-2 to the Tanker. It works fine specially for SoA groups because, even with 2.9k M Def, it's hard to survive on a ranged-attack from Elites. Harnak is quite easy tbh... any floor.
The point is, if you want to die less, suck your pride (like someone said before) and join a good Clan and spend all your adena on attributes for your set. I know it sucks for Event Immortals but if you can't afford a Twilight/Vorpal set 3x60/120 self enchant, it's better if you spend them for your own protection with the one you got. It's better than nothing.
It's all I can say by now. It's not that much but actually I tried to help. From a skilled healer to a new one. ;)
Well, I play on healer classes since C3 and I can show you a fact: if you don't like to be blamed or pressured, stop playing healer.
You will never be good enough for anything you do. Even if you try your best, you will do something wrong and this little f***ing thing will ruin your gameplay because the other 6 party members can't be defeated or they get mad.
Not really. This stuff comes from party members that don't know the game. If they are DDs, just ignore them. If it's a tank, don't party with him/her again.
By the way, I always carry BRESS scrolls with me as well and before any farming party starts to roll, I give like 2-3 to the Iss (when I know them, of course, for randoms it's only 1) and 1-2 to the Tanker.
Tank in SoA is in a very bad position to use brez. It usually takes 2-3 scrolls for a tank to rez someone, because of all those mobs hitting and interrupting the cast.
The point is, if you want to die less, suck your pride (like someone said before) and join a good Clan and spend all your adena on attributes for your set.
A healer without a clan is a healer without the Divine Squad passive. If you often find yourself without MP, you may want to join a better clan :rolleyes:
A healer without a clan is a healer without the Divine Squad passive. If you often find yourself without MP, you may want to join a better clan :rolleyes:
Who needs holy squad, I was in Hanark 3 for a few hours the other night in party with 3 nukers, an archer spamming skills and a tank spamming mana, still had 5k+ mp every time re-birth was needed. :p Although yeah, Holy Squad is nice. ;)
One pet annoyance is when things go wrong and you keep everyone healed/rezzed and save the group often people thank the tank for the recovery and don't bother mentioning the healer. Also it's annoying when in pvp/siege people run off or get killed whilst the healer is protecting a priority party member then they complain that they didn't get many heals. I guess that's another pro point for 2 healers in pvp.
Healer is a thankless job and has little room for error, but it's often easy to recover from problems and can't complain about 100% rez. Healer is also a very useful class thanks to free brez, mp regen and cp/hp regen, people always appreciate your help.
There's very few people who get noticed for being stand out DDs or enchanters, but a good healer will always get noticed and you'll find a lot of people adding you to their FL and pming you for parties.
I love my healer, it's strong in pvp and one of the few self sufficient classes left since we have a lot of skills and heals to get ourselves out of sticky situations. I can train through mobs then AOE sleep or dissolve/celestial and just carry on running like I used to do on my domi, rather than have to bsoe like a DD in trouble would.
Not really. This stuff comes from party members that don't know the game. If they are DDs, just ignore them. If it's a tank, don't party with him/her again.
That's what I meant. ;)
Tank in SoA is in a very bad position to use brez. It usually takes 2-3 scrolls for a tank to rez someone, because of all those mobs hitting and interrupting the cast.
Tankers are usually the last one to give use their scrolls for me. I don't die that much because I play with guys that know what they're doing (my CP either), but when it happens, the Iss is healing the others until he find 5 seconds to use his BRESS Scroll. :)
A healer without a clan is a healer without the Divine Squad passive. If you often find yourself without MP, you may want to join a better clan :rolleyes:
English is my first Language and I do very well with it, but perhaps I just misread something...
That's 26 skills regularly used not including macros or buffs.
I'm aware that all of them aren't skills that heal (or related to those) and that can be accurately referred from my rhetorical question about nukes, etc.
Zerg Agro switches are unpreventable when multiple MOBs out of an AE pack switch and basically kill someone in under a second.
Yes there are tools like Celestial but that may or may not be up when that happens, and it happens often in some areas to the point that those tools cannot be wholly relied upon (i.e. cooldowns). You rez, renoble, and continue. Part of the game.
Zerg Agro switches are unpreventable when multiple MOBs out of an AE pack switch and basically kill someone in under a second.
Zerg aggro switches are not unhandleable. 1-shots are not unpreventable.
Besides, back in the FoG days I used to provoke zerg aggro switches to split the train on overpulls and let the main "tank" safely kill a part of the train while I kite the rest. And I didn't need to wear +6 heavy armor for that.
Yes there are tools like Celestial but that may or may not be up when that happens,
Celestial, party celestial, sleep, mass sleep to protect party members; nukes, giant's favor, crystal regeneration, dissolve, racial skill to protect the healer. Each on its own cooldown.
Pre-GoD you could just rely on kiting and Trance spam.
and it happens often in some areas to the point that those tools cannot be wholly relied upon (i.e. cooldowns). You rez, renoble, and continue. Part of the game.
... or waste your time waiting for an Iss with a brez to come to your location and rez you and your party.
Sorry I don't pug on my healer and everyone usually has a couple BRezes on them. Bring a boxed healer and camp it nearby if you feel you'll need it. It's not hard and people have been doing it since 2005.
I think I had like 30 deaths total last period, probably 2 over all my XP parties (mostly PuGs) and the rest in pvp or when I was chatting during solo kartia rather than paying attention.
Besides, back in the FoG days I used to provoke zerg aggro switches to split the train on overpulls and let the main "tank" safely kill a part of the train while I kite the rest. And I didn't need to wear +6 heavy armor for that.
I hope that wasn't a dig at me, I haven't even said anything about not using skills! :confused: (I wear +6 heavy, Trensharo's healer has immo robe gear).
One of my party deaths was because I was annoyed the tank only pulled 2-3 goups in Bistakon, so I pulled another 3 and they wouldn't leave me, lol. I often pull extras if I think the tank is being too soft.
Saying that healers are easy to play is saying that every other class is so super duper easy your five year old could do it for you while you went to the bar. Which they are, other than tank. Your eight year old could play tank. Healers have meticulous clicking of pixels (party members) to be done in a heartbeat, while the DD's maximize the exp rate by being extraordinarily fearless.
Though, many DD's I've seen don't use their "Oh sh..." skills, they bet on the healer to save them. I have yet to see a nuker port back/forwards or knockback rather than get dropped in kartia. A lot of players have tunnel vision, bloodthrist, must killl, BRAAAIIINS... And the healer has to compensate for that.
With stupid party members only one thing to do...
Ignore them, smile, heal, run, die, resurect,..
Wait until the raid, boss, instance is going to be finished...
My point is, an archer doesnt have hide so he could rezz a healer.
Your right, but here are 4 helpful tips if you do not have hide:
1. *flash* run around till you lose aggro. (as an archer)
2. "dragon bomber transformation"
3. "invisibility talismans"
4. "dual-class/sub-class with shadow step/dm/sm"
Saying that healers are easy to play is saying that every other class is so super duper easy your five year old could do it for you while you went to the bar. Which they are, other than tank. Your eight year old could play tank. Healers have meticulous clicking of pixels (party members) to be done in a heartbeat, while the DD's maximize the exp rate by being extraordinarily fearless.
Though, many DD's I've seen don't use their "Oh sh..." skills, they bet on the healer to save them. I have yet to see a nuker port back/forwards or knockback rather than get dropped in kartia. A lot of players have tunnel vision, bloodthrist, must killl, BRAAAIIINS... And the healer has to compensate for that.
Buy a Nostromo or something really if you're clicking in 2012 then you have no right to complain about how hard anything is to play.
You're right. Most classes in this game are brain dead easy to play. Including Aeore. It's not a hard class. Cardinal was harder, IMO, and with less buttons. The number of buttons you have don't make a class more difficult, necessarily, and neither does anyone's insistence on grouping with absolutely tarded people or PUGing their way to victory...
i play healer as well, and i find the OP to be accurate...BUT...if ppl worry about xp loss...then this isnt the game for you...i quit worrying about death and xp loss along time ago...yes it would be nice to get a BREZ once in awhile but im not gonna demand someone 100% rez me.....if i die say in kartia...all i care about is You ( my fellow grpies) getting me up ASAP so party dont wipe...i would rather take a loss of xp myself then have the party break due to unsatisfied ppl and waste time reforming. What ppl have to realize is even with a death you will still gain more xp by continuing to grind, then the party breaking and you have to reform ( you aint making xp standing around ) Try and remember this when out lvling. If you do manage to get into a fail party ( for w/e the reason ), you can always go far enuff away and PR and watch em all die ( as in kartias )...there is no reason to get mad and yell...ya get more satisfaction from watching all the idiots die cuz they wont listen to good advice ( which BTW i got right here on these forums ). Here is a suggestion i have: when forming or getting invited to a party...b4 ya go out lvling...look at the gears the party is in....if 3/4's of the party is in Immortal, chances are they are newly awakened with no or very little element ( this is NOT always the case but most of the time it is ), and i politely tell the ppl im sry my clan needs me, ty anyways and go find new party with ppl in Twilight ( chances are if they can afford Twilight then they can afford element...Again not always the case but most of the time it is ). Im sure this may sound shallow and selfish but as i stated earlier, would ya rather xp or constantly rez and get frustrated...i opt for xp myself and i think most of you would too. IMO xp takes a backseat to having fun with friends and clanmates, if you are having fun joking, poking fun at one another, chatting in Vent or TS...ya dont even pay attn to the xp bar ( at least i dont ) and b4 ya know it, ya gained 10%. Try not to let death bother you...the faster ya get over losing xp...the faster ya xp...Theres my 2 cents worth :)
With stupid party members only one thing to do...
Ignore them, smile, heal, run, die, resurect,..
Wait until the raid, boss, instance is going to be finished...
and in the last minute.....
PARTY RECALL!!!
**** them all!!
+1 and AMEN...Listen to ppl who have more knowledge or pay the consequences...its that simple
What I hate is the selfish attitude of the MAJORITY players to NOT carry a brez to accommodate their healer incase of an xp loss death.
After ALL the countless 100% rezzes they got, it seems this is too much to do in return for the healer.
Feels like all tell you: I don't give crap about your XP, I get to keep mine, FU.
So I invested in and carry my own brez, which is often pointless, cause in a party by the time I ask for a trade and one actually decides to trade, the party is dead anyways.
And the sad thing after a wipe is that some even expect the HEALER to release and take a 100% loss so all other can keep thier XP.
I had a discussion once with a player about this and he stated simply this IS the healer life.
As I do love the healing playstyle, I cannot understand the lack of consideration from the players AND NCSoft.
If it is truely ment to be that I have to sacrifice my xp over an over again and therefore lvl way slower then the rest, so ALL other players can go their merry way, without means so make up for this loss in a decent way like ALL the other classes, then I guess it is not the class for me.
You are being just as if not more selfish than the players you accuse of being selfish. Giving out those 100% XP rezzes as an Aeore costs you NOTHING. In fact you were given that Rez by NCSoft to use the same as you were given your heals by NCSoft to use. This is a gratuitous skill given to you whose use does not suddenly impose a burden on the receiver anymore than the burden imposed by you healing them. This is the same burden imposed on you when that other player uses their own skills to your benefit, be they tanking or DDing skills.
Saying that just because you can give someone a benefit equivalent to what they would have received if a brez rez were used instead of a brez like spell does not mean that the other player now owes you the value of a brez because the truth of the matter is you did not spend the value of a brez so the player doesn't owe you the value of a brez.
If we were to turn this situation around and use your argument, then we could say that a player who is rezed with an actual brez scroll owes the other person nothing because they could have used a brez like spell that would have cost nothing and the dead player shouldn't have to pay for the other player's choice of paying more the 100% than they had to.
An analogous and easier to understand situation would be if you tried charging someone the value of a life pot whenever you healed them up to full hp by using your healing skills. Yes the player may have actually had to pay for the value of a full hp pot had you not healed them, but you did heal them so they did not have to pay for that pot and the heals cost you nothing but a miniscule amount time. If you were in a party together it is expected and rightfully held that the player receiving the benefit of free healing that they would have had to pay for were no healer present does not owe the player anything beyond the dickered drop arrangement which the healer normally receives simply by being nearby when drops are picked up off the ground.
So while it would certainly be nice if the other players Brezed you, they are under no obligation to use a brez on you when you die.
If you don't agree with this argument I will simply say that your brez costs you nothing to use on another party member but a party member using a Brez on you costs them the adena value of the rez scroll and if that player leaves the party without a good drop they would be leaving the party with less adena than they started while you would be leaving the party with more adena than you started which would be very unfair for that other player. In order to make up for this deficit you would be obliged to make the player who used a Brez scroll on you at least enough adena to bring them back up to the point they were at before they joined the party.
And if we do want to keep discussing costs, suppose we have a situation where you, the healer, are about to die and another player manages to gain the attention of the mob thereby saving you from death and dying themselves. For whatever reason you try go to click on the player to rez them but accidentally click on your soe skill. During the time you are trying to get back another group comes across the dead party member who gave their own XP for yours and offers to give them a 100% rez. The player thinking they will use an Aeore rez accepts and receives a rez but actually the other party used a Brez scroll (in the clan this person belongs to it is normal for players to use brez scrols instead of Aeore rezes on each other and they all repay each other for the brez scroll) and now demands repayment of the cost of the Brez scroll. Who should pay for this scroll? The player who died to save the healer? The healer who should have used a 100% rez skill but accidentally teleported or the person who used the Brez scroll expecting they would be repaid?
Yes, the long reuse on sleep is the major example of all the bad things they did to healers.
As a healer you have no room for crying about this because healers were given trance which was just as good as the old sleep. In fact it was a perfect substitute for sleep.
Actual mages on the other hand were completely screwed over by this because we were not given a replacement for this skill and we were not readjusted around no longer having useable CC.
But nukers were never supposed to be cc AND dd. That combo is too stong.
Thankfully its become more balanced now :D
That is a completely false statement. Back when we were all doing Cruma, a spellsingers damage output was absolute crap thanks for mp regenerating so slowly and such a low Int.
In fact up until GoD a mage's damage output over long time intervals was on the lower end because of those same mp problems. The mage didn't do more damage than a physical fighter over a short time and since they ran out of mp so quickly they very quickly peetered out of the race.
In most MMORPGs Nukers were always given a usable CC (or two, sometimes more for classes that specialized like EQ Enchanters). The idea that a DPS class cannot have a usable CC or they'll be OP is stupid.
Nukers were given other tools, or had other tools, but they were initially restricted (like Fear not working on players) or didn't scale well with resists and epics (i.e. Mental Shield + Epics).
Well first off I just got back into L2 after about 6 months away, but after reading over a few posts, yes Cardinal was more difficult to be good at than aoere healer. The game I thought was somewhat slowed down to make it easier to play and streamlined to make it simpler (fewer classes simpler, stronger skills easier) from a healer perspective and much faster reuse times on critical skills.
I think Aoere in PVE is very easy to play once you trial and error enough to find out what is most effective for you, I think many healers make things more difficult than they need to be. Ive only been back a few weeks but even then for the most part just basic healing, keeping people alive, no more no less takes 2 BUTTONS, 90% of the time (avg pick up party). Progressive heal which gives back 40% hp to auxillery targets and regens in 2-3 secs, and balance life as the back up.
In most MMORPGs Nukers were always given a usable CC (or two, sometimes more for classes that specialized like EQ Enchanters). The idea that a DPS class cannot have a usable CC or they'll be OP is stupid.
Nukers were given other tools, or had other tools, but they were initially restricted (like Fear not working on players) or didn't scale well with resists and epics (i.e. Mental Shield + Epics).
Whoever thougth giving nukers nukes AND a sleep skill, where the land rate depends on matk, a stat you would want to max on said character as well, is beyond ******ed.
The fact that it eventually got fixed, should have told you something.
But sometimes, things just fly over ppls heads.
Think beyond what you play some time bro, you dont have to be a nuker/necro martyr. Thats getting old.
Whoever thougth giving nukers nukes AND a sleep skill, where the land rate depends on matk, a stat you would want to max on said character as well, is beyond ******ed.
The fact that it eventually got fixed, should have told you something.
But sometimes, things just fly over ppls heads.
Think beyond what you play some time bro, you dont have to be a nuker/necro martyr. Thats getting old.
What's fed up is giving CC skills a chance to be resisted at all. What that leads to is a world where the character is OP when the CC lands and screwed when it doesn't such that success comes down not to skill or effort but simply dumb luck in whether the skill lands or not. A well balanced game comes from skills that allow the developers to always know where the player with that skill stands which can only happen when the skill works a specific way everytime.
Sleep and sleeping cloud didn't get "fixed," they got nerfed so badly that they were effectively removed from the classes who needed them.
And even that is irrelevant information when talking about how mages functioned during C1 and C2 where we were wanted exclusively for use of sleeping cloud and created our own unique way of aoeing 100-200 mobs at a time relying specifically on sleeping cloud being a spell with a normal casting time.
Think about why mages were given sleep in the first place. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't because they were rocking every class in PvP during Prelude, quite the opposite in fact. Of course most classes didn't get the skills they should have had and their is no doubt that sleep is a type of spell normally associated with mages and Wizards. Just ask Raistlin Majere.
To end, your desire to not discuss the past because the future is so different is a completely irrelevant desire in a discussion about the past.
Whoever thougth giving nukers nukes AND a sleep skill, where the land rate depends on matk, a stat you would want to max on said character as well, is beyond ******ed.
The fact that it eventually got fixed, should have told you something.
But sometimes, things just fly over ppls heads.
Think beyond what you play some time bro, you dont have to be a nuker/necro martyr. Thats getting old.
1. My main is not a nuker. It's a summoner, however I do have a Feoh and an Aeore almost the same level, and I've been leveling my Iss Enchanter up as well. I'm not sure why you're still on the Necro/Nuker Martyr thing (and misusing that term), when my post history (easily searchable on the forums) clearly shows that I'm willing to take a "nerf" if it will promote overall game balance and avoid the class I play becoming so powerful that the ramifications down the road will be worse than the proposed fixes.
I'm pretty sure my huge Necro "Nerf this and compensate us with these (very reasonable) fixes" still exists here. BTW, most of those fixes are in the game now, so there was obviously a lot of merit in them... Too bad the class is all but worthless due to GoD's Awakening system. Yay?
2. Offensive Mages in almost all MMORPGs have CC. Way back to EQ Necros had something akin to Sleep (Screaming Terror), and Fears - they even had basically unresistable spammale Lifetaps which drained HP at a 1:1 ratio to the damage. Wizards had Roots that actually worked (not L2 Roots, which are worthless). Enchanters had Unresistable Charms and Mezzes, in addition to Roots and Fears. In WoW Warlocks have Fear and a Glyph that makes it function like Sleep. They have Mass Fear that actually lands. They have Stuns. Mages have tons of CC in that game. In AoC mage classes have CC. I can go over EQ2 but it's going to look the same, cause it's a pretty tempate theme across all fantasy MMORPG games - PvP and PvE. Why these classes have the control skills should be obvious, and I don't have the time to school you on that.
Oh, and in all of those games, those respective classes (barring EQ Enchanters) are high-tier DPS classes - meaning in a parsed raid they will be at or near the top of the pack for damage output.
3. The game was the issue, not the CC. Landrate issues could have been fixed, easily, by adjusting the Base Landrate of the Skill. The Devs forwent that and instead increased the casting speed to a level that left the spell literally useless for mages.
Sleep BLR was 80% (same as Anchor, for example). If they had lowered Sleep to 40% and Sleep Cloud to 30% that would have most likely fixed the issue especially as the game progressed and people's character levels and gear got better.
And really, does it matter? Sleep would have been obsoleted as the game went on by mechanics changes and stacking buffs/Passives like Arcane Protection/Wisdom being added. Trance was only so powerful in the Olympiad because of the terrible buff situations most classes had in there. It wasn't so powerful outside against full buffed characters. Sleep was no different - and it really wouldn't have matter that it came from a Mage instead of a Healer, because you're really overestimating the effect M.Atk had on the landrate of those debuffs. There's a reason why they gave Debuff Classes like Necro and Overlord things like Gloom and Despair...
The fact that it got destroyed tells us that the devs took the easy way out. They changed the casting speed cause it was the easiest to do and it's something that really requires no testing. Adjusting landrates is something that needs fine-tuning, and they simply didn't want to put that kind of work in. Additionally, they apparently wanted to remove that type of CC from all Attack mages and put it on support mages, which is why Orc casters kept Dreaming Spirits and Healers (BP/EE) got Trance.
EDIT: Also, Sleep was still usable on a geared/buffed Mystic Muse, since 1900+ casting speed pretty much overpowered the nerf, but they still didn't use it because by the time Interlude came around Mental Resistance and M.Def had pretty much overpowered it's overpoweredness in earlier chronicles. Sleep was OP due to the Dev's failure to balance landrates and M.Def/Mental Debuff Resistane against current character power back in the earlier chronicles. No different than when the attribute system was put in and people were crying about how OP characters with 150 weapons were (against unattributed gear).
It's not so much the land rate the issue..but the duration..l2 debuffs always had too much time on them, so if debuff had nice land rate = OP, if debuff had bad land rate = Useless. If debuff had short duration with moderate land rate and re-use = fine.
Fair point and easily fixed by putting diminishing returns on the debuff. First land full duration and then each subsequent one reduces the duration by half until it resists and forces an immunity on the target for a point of time. That's how WoW fixed fear spamming Warlocks, and Polymorph spamming Mages. EQ and EQ2 also introduced diminishing returns because debuffs that last too long and are too reliable in land rate are OP in both PvP and PvE.
The duration was never the issue with Sleep because in most cases the target was never allowed to sleep a full duration unless the mage wanted to Sleep them and SoE and really it would have been much easier to just run away and log out in most cases.
They used it to keep the target at near max range and prevent incoming damage between nukes. It only takes like 5 seconds to get back out of range after a nuke if you slept a target, assuming they were a rather fast class and not an archer.
The landrate was the big issue, especially after spiritshot spamming became common, since it increased debuff landrate exponentially.
Fair point and easily fixed by putting diminishing returns on the debuff. First land full duration and then each subsequent one reduces the duration by half until it resists and forces an immunity on the target for a point of time.
It thought it was supposed to be introduced with GoD 1.0, but I've never seen it working.
GoD is a bit late to address issues that demanded attention half a decade or more before its release.
It's a fairly useless change outside of limiting chain stuns and Iss Enchanter debuffs now, for the reasons Yunalesca put forth. However up until GoD release it would have been Godsend for PvP balance, especially in the Olympiad where lots of classes relied on Chain debuffing people to win (Spamming Slows, Trance, Cancels, Stuns, etc.).