When soloing i always use cougars
In groups i have always used cougars
Reapers have physical single attack, but magic aoe
so with bow you get strong single target and weak aoe
and with magic weapon u get strong aoe and weak single target
while cougars are much stronger single target, imo
so then its the final question, where do you use reapers?
Only place i would see it as a viable option is in SoA
Reapers are good for pulling trains in Swamp in a duo with an enchanter, AOEing at SOA and AOEing at LOA. They're also good for pulling trains at fairy settlement when duo with an enchanter.
Cougars are good for harnak cause not too many mobs come out so the AOE isn't as effective as the single target DPS from cougars.
There are enough MOBs in Harnaks for the Reapers to OutDPS the Cougars there by virtue of their AoE DPS, but MOBs die and since those are easy MOBs the Cougars are simply a simpler option and work exceptionally well. Also, there are more physical debuffs being thrown around in groups there from what I've seen compared to M.Def debuffs.
Another innate issue with the Reapers is simply game design. You cannot optimally gear for Reapers, but you can trivially gear optimally for cougars. Reapers have both Physical and Magic Attacks so either one is going to suffer based on your gear and Weaponry. You cannot min-max both of them. You can do that with Cougars.
So even though the reapers have a huge advantage due to their AoE at the start of the pull, as MOBs die the cougars close the gap quite a bit and with full buffs may even eclipse them.
In places like SoA you simply don't want to have to deal with a ton of dead pets so the Reapers are superior in the long run.
It's the difference between hitting 8 mobs for 10k per reaper AOE and 20k crits every 3 seconds and hitting 1 mob for 72k crits per cougar every half second.
The reapers do damage outside of the AoEs as well. I didn't say they were OMG so superior, I said they were slightly superior. Reading my whole post would make that quite obvious. And like I said, it's simply easier to optimally gear for the Cougars. Not so much with the Reapers.
Melee buffs have always been superior to mage buffs esp IRT servitors.
I'd personally use the cougars in 95% of situations unless I XPed primarily in SoA for those levels.
1v1 pvp. 3 reapers or 1 bear + 2 reapers are very effective. Why? Reapers don't have to chase targets, all classes have weak M.def so the reaper skills hit very hard. It's very easy to avoid cougars as their hit boxes are tiny.
Mass pvp. 3 reapers. Getting close in a mass pvp when you don't have to isn't a good idea also AOEs are much more effective in this kind of pvp.
Large HP single mobs. Cougars ofc.
Large HP few multiple mobs. Still cougars.
Low HP single mobs. Reapers.
Low/Large HP mass mobs. Reapers.
Counting in Excessive loyalty, Reapers out DPS wizards without Emp Echo and without double casting on (even with Arcane Power) both in single target nuking and AOEing. Cougars out DPS every class. Only things that can compete are half kills and lethals. Different story in pvp though, -30% damage.
TOPIC
Reapers vs Cougars
NOT
KnightOfDarkness vs Trenshero
It takes two to argue a point of view and its still on topic so I don't see the problem in a little constructive criticism. It brings out more info than the typical half hearted, baseless answers from most people.
I like to pick up my loot so even if I use reapers to kill i still have to walk there so i prefer cougars
Not to mention the graphics on the reapers are ******* stupid
Picking up loot in Swamplands is a waste of time, IMO. In a group a melee toon will likely be picking up anyways.
Reapers: Next target + summon attack. forever.
I also never pick up a single drop, unless i see it is a full drop.
There's no reason NOT to pick up drops when you're using reapers, it's pretty dumb when it doesn't stop your pets killing things.
Personally I const pull fresh mobs onto the summons with protect mode on (just quick attack but not kill the mobs) and pick up as they're killing and I'm targeting the next mob. Helps the mobs die faster too since the damage from mobs triggers counter crit on the summons.
There's no reason NOT to pick up drops when you're using reapers, it's pretty dumb when it doesn't stop your pets killing things.
Personally I const pull fresh mobs onto the summons with protect mode on (just quick attack but not kill the mobs) and pick up as they're killing and I'm targeting the next mob. Helps the mobs die faster too since the damage from mobs triggers counter crit on the summons.
^^ This.
I've always done this, even on low level summoners.
Personally I find leveling gets to boring with this archetype unless you sort of work a little to spice it up.
Summoners are more fun when chain pulling/pull stacking multi-HP mobs, though (IMO).
IRT drops make an imba dual class and go plow FoG or something. Make like 10m a day just from adena drops and vendoring everything (i.e. too lazy to go to Giran and sell so probably could make 15-20 easily). Swamplands adena drops are pathetic to the point where the average player would think it was bugged. NCSoft needs to patch it you can barely pay for your shots with the drops in that place...
mmm cougars do better for me aoeing too doing this:
1.) get light armor enhance
2.) get an apoc thrower +3 150 wind(ex spectral master)
3.) get 3 pieces earth resist 60 and 2 pieces wind 60
4.) summon our 3 lovely kittens and put them in passive mode
5.) get full iss buff + tp + servitor share(no brainer) with warrior symphony
now done that go swamp/nursery for solo fun and run like a rap star chased by the cops all over the place until you get say 20 mobs chasing you. after that stop and switch kittens to defense mode and target the closest mobs and use mark of void so mobs wont low your hp too fast and sit to watch the bloodbath since kittens will do all by themselves without any intervention except pickup drops and enjoy easy exp, especially in nursery.
on harnak if you have good tank/healer just target the farthest mob and use cougar jump in defense mode and enjoy your exp bar going up since kittens won't stop hitting until all mobs are dead 90% of the time, in case you tank die or disconnect just UD the kittens and let them bring the pain with some occasional heal and say loud in party/ventrillo/ts that you tank while tank recover to avoid some noob feoh/archer aoe the mobs get and instant death.
note: yes cats in UD can handle harnak1/2 almost alone with an healer/iss near and with 3 wynns you don't need tank if you have good healer maybe in 3rd is possible too but i haven't tested yet (my CP tank just got too good now)
in SOA you can choose assist or defense mode so far work good enough for my CP either way.
just don't panic if a mob or group pick you up cuz they respawned near you, calm down and find fast the elite XXXX and mark of void it, since this mobs is hardest hitter around for 5 sec he will keep you full hp/mp, just remember if you run your group dies so just slowly move near your tank and wait for him to mass aggro assuming your cats didn't massacred the mobs first(in 87 with this configuration is fairly fast)
now doing this with reapers i die 80% of the time with cougars 1% maybe if some spike lag screw me
in fact i stopped using reapers raiding teredor, i prefer cleanse the cougars than get an ulcer trying to keep reapers and me alive.
200k shots for less than 2 hours of grinding....
Sorry I don't buy shots from the L2 store.
That's wasting RL money.
I use full drops and crush them to craft my own shots.
I make like 5-10M a day leveling so I don't have this issue. I don't grind in Swamps, either...
But buying from L2Store should not be the baseline for gameplay. Maybe it is for you. It isn't for me.
And since I don't play melee characters I only use BSPS so I have no clue how much 200k shots last or how much it costs. I routinely have over 13k BSPS on me, crafting them myself with my own Crystals.
mmm cougars do better for me aoeing too doing this:
1.) get light armor enhance
2.) get an apoc thrower +3 150 wind(ex spectral master)
3.) get 3 pieces earth resist 60 and 2 pieces wind 60
4.) summon our 3 lovely kittens and put them in passive mode
5.) get full iss buff + tp + servitor share(no brainer) with warrior symphony
now done that go swamp/nursery for solo fun and run like a rap star chased by the cops all over the place until you get say 20 mobs chasing you. after that stop and switch kittens to defense mode and target the closest mobs and use mark of void so mobs wont low your hp too fast and sit to watch the bloodbath since kittens will do all by themselves without any intervention except pickup drops and enjoy easy exp, especially in nursery.
on harnak if you have good tank/healer just target the farthest mob and use cougar jump in defense mode and enjoy your exp bar going up since kittens won't stop hitting until all mobs are dead 90% of the time, in case you tank die or disconnect just UD the kittens and let them bring the pain with some occasional heal and say loud in party/ventrillo/ts that you tank while tank recover to avoid some noob feoh/archer aoe the mobs get and instant death.
note: yes cats in UD can handle harnak1/2 almost alone with an healer/iss near and with 3 wynns you don't need tank if you have good healer maybe in 3rd is possible too but i haven't tested yet (my CP tank just got too good now)
in SOA you can choose assist or defense mode so far work good enough for my CP either way.
just don't panic if a mob or group pick you up cuz they respawned near you, calm down and find fast the elite XXXX and mark of void it, since this mobs is hardest hitter around for 5 sec he will keep you full hp/mp, just remember if you run your group dies so just slowly move near your tank and wait for him to mass aggro assuming your cats didn't massacred the mobs first(in 87 with this configuration is fairly fast)
now doing this with reapers i die 80% of the time with cougars 1% maybe if some spike lag screw me
in fact i stopped using reapers raiding teredor, i prefer cleanse the cougars than get an ulcer trying to keep reapers and me alive.Swamp Nursery is easy. Harnaks I don't do cause it reminds me too much like a Catacomb (it basically is a high level catacomb, TBH).
MOBs in SoA AoE hard and 120 Earth Resist is not a lot. Warriors die all the time with that level of Attribute Resist as do Iss Enchanters and Healers/Nukers get Overhit at times at that level or even higher.
Debuff landrate in SoA at 87 (especially at Repti) isn't high enough for that strategy to be wholly reliable.
And 150 Wind Attribute does basically nothing there.
I use full drops and crush them to craft my own shots.
I make like 5-10M a day leveling so I don't have this issue. I don't grind in Swamps, either...
But buying from L2Store should not be the baseline for gameplay. Maybe it is for you. It isn't for me.
And since I don't play melee characters I only use BSPS so I have no clue how much 200k shots last or how much it costs. I routinely have over 13k BSPS on me, crafting them myself with my own Crystals.
****, how clueless are you?
I'm not buying shots from L2store, and those only sells A-ss as highest regular shots. I talking about RSS and Blessed RSS. You get those from mentee certificate turned into diplomas. One lvl 40 toon gives you 200k RSS.
Thats why you dont need to buy RSS.
Beast soulshots and blessed spiritshots, can indeed be bought from l2store. But I doubt anyone does that, there are enough full drops to be crystalized so I can summon my own shots, I'm up to over 5 million beast soulshots atm.
Nice to see you never wanna buy anything from L2store, and waste your precious RL money. If they ever shut down the servers coz they dont make enough money, I guess one of the ppl I can thank is you.
Edit: I also said in my post, less than 2 hours grinding = 200k shots, how did you deduce buying shots from l2store?
I'm not buying shots from L2store, and those only sells A-ss as highest regular shots. I talking about RSS and Blessed RSS. You get those from mentee certificate turned into diplomas. One lvl 40 toon gives you 200k RSS.
How clueless are you?
You get Shots in the Support packs. 10k of each grade. Friend of mine has like 10 of those packs.
Here is the R Grade Discovery pack. It's pretty obvious, but there are packs for S Grade as well as packs that contain more shots (like 10k Mysterious BSPS for every grade up to S):
Thats why you dont need to buy RSS.
I don't use RSS. I use BSPS. And I use a 300 Attribute Top S80 Weapon not R Grade because it's better than a Clean (or anything less than about 280 Attribute, where Crystal Cost factors in) R weapon. Even if I did use an R weapon, I have like 400 R cry in the shop from crushing bound Immortal Gear I got as Drops and would not have to waste Mentor coin on something so fundamental and cheap to make myself.
Beast soulshots and blessed spiritshots, can indeed be bought from l2store. But I doubt anyone does that, there are enough full drops to be crystalized so I can summon my own shots, I'm up to over 5 million beast soulshots atm.
You buy those from Pet Manager or craft [as in summon] them. That was never a consideration.
Nice to see you never wanna buy anything from L2store, and waste your precious RL money. If they ever shut down the servers coz they dont make enough money, I guess one of the ppl I can thank is you.
Yes, my RL money is precious. And you could cry the dead sea for all I care. I'm not obligated to pay for their inability to construct a working business model...
Edit: I also said in my post, less than 2 hours grinding = 200k shots, how did you deduce buying shots from l2store?
Because you asked who seriously buys their own shots.
I killed two birds with one stone by stating I don't buy them from the L2Store (where they are for sale, how clueless can you be?!), nor do I buy them from players. I simply crush drops to crystals and craft them myself. Don't half-quote yourself it doesn't look very intelligent.
I'm gonna quote myself since you obviously failed to comprehend the post:
Sorry I don't buy shots from the L2 store.
That's wasting RL money.
I use full drops and crush them to craft my own shots.
I make like 5-10M a day leveling so I don't have this issue. I don't grind in Swamps, either...
But buying from L2Store should not be the baseline for gameplay. Maybe it is for you. It isn't for me.
And since I don't play melee characters I only use BSPS so I have no clue how much 200k shots last or how much it costs. I routinely have over 13k BSPS on me, crafting them myself with my own Crystals.
Swamp Nursery is easy. Harnaks I don't do cause it reminds me too much like a Catacomb (it basically is a high level catacomb, TBH).
MOBs in SoA AoE hard and 120 Earth Resist is not a lot. Warriors die all the time with that level of Attribute Resist as do Iss Enchanters and Healers/Nukers get Overhit at times at that level or even higher.
Debuff landrate in SoA at 87 (especially at Repti) isn't high enough for that strategy to be wholly reliable.
And 150 Wind Attribute does basically nothing there.
1.) yea but exp is fast so it don't bother me much
2.) 180(i said 3 pieces) is not a lot but when you have TP on and light armor it cut enough of the damage to be able to resist mobs on me for some seconds, in robes and no elements is 1 hit to village. so even if its no ideal it helps a ******* lot. note i do cocrakon mostly since my CP is mostly 85
3.) i heard that too, i forgot to put cocakron as my main zone, once my cp reach enough level ill post guide for reptilikon
4.) not exactly true, i tested a zillion times in cockaron and it improves dmg, especially criting but ofc is nowhere near 300 but hey every 1 of dmg helps, beside in magmeld is not exactly easy or cheap to get apoc 300 element so dont see this as a fully uber geared char guide but more like how to survive a bit more in cockaron being a newbie XD
You get Shots in the Support packs. 10k of each grade. Friend of mine has like 10 of those packs.
Here is the R Grade Discovery pack. It's pretty obvious, but there are packs for S Grade as well as packs that contain more shots (like 10k Mysterious BSPS for every grade up to S):
I don't use RSS. I use BSPS. And I use a 300 Attribute Top S80 Weapon not R Grade because it's better than a Clean (or anything less than about 280 Attribute, where Crystal Cost factors in) R weapon. Even if I did use an R weapon, I have like 400 R cry in the shop from crushing bound Immortal Gear I got as Drops and would not have to waste Mentor coin on something so fundamental and cheap to make myself.
You buy those from Pet Manager or craft [as in summon] them. That was never a consideration.
Yes, my RL money is precious. And you could cry the dead sea for all I care. I'm not obligated to pay for their inability to construct a working business model...
Because you asked who seriously buys their own shots.
I killed two birds with one stone by stating I don't buy them from the L2Store (where they are for sale, how clueless can you be?!), nor do I buy them from players. I simply crush drops to crystals and craft them myself. Don't half-quote yourself it doesn't look very intelligent.
I'm gonna quote myself since you obviously failed to comprehend the post:
So, why all the rhetorical questions?
lol tldr;
2 sentences spawned all that?
Who pays for shots? 2 hours grinding =200k shots.
Leads to you overthinking stuff and trying to flame ppl.
**** being you must be awesome, every minute, every day :D
Reapers -> Swampland
Cougars -> For everything else xD
No, No, and No.
Reapers have so many more uses than people really give them credit for. I use reapers for Swamps, Altar, SoA: Nursery, Kartia: Solo and Group, and always in PvP.
I love reapers in nursery as I pretty much never stop running in a circle and the reapers keep up and kill super quick.
The only time I use Cougars is in Harnaks, SoA, Fairies, or GoG. Pretty much any group setting.
Pretty much any time I solo, or the mobs have a semi-low amount of HP, I use reapers. Most of the time I can kill things with the reapers far before my cougars would even reach the mob. People just get so obsessed with the cougars "big" numbers when in reality there are quite a few great uses for reapers over cougars.
Reapers have so many more uses than people really give them credit for. I use reapers for Swamps, Altar, SoA: Nursery, Kartia: Solo and Group, and always in PvP.
I love reapers in nursery as I pretty much never stop running in a circle and the reapers keep up and kill super quick.
The only time I use Cougars is in Harnaks, SoA, Fairies, or GoG. Pretty much any group setting.
Pretty much any time I solo, or the mobs have a semi-low amount of HP, I use reapers. Most of the time I can kill things with the reapers far before my cougars would even reach the mob. People just get so obsessed with the cougars "big" numbers when in reality there are quite a few great uses for reapers over cougars.
Use what you like though. :)
I use the same summons for each case, except swampland, where i use cougars most of the times, with cougar jump mobs still die faster.
As a healer I hate summoners using Cougars in SOA/Hanark. They might do more non-aoe damage but the seriously reduce the amount the party gets healed for with prog heal.
As a healer I hate summoners using Cougars in SOA/Hanark. They might do more non-aoe damage but the seriously reduce the amount the party gets healed for with prog heal.
I don't complain but it isn't good for me.Can you explain to me that? I am summoner and i dont know how healer class skills work. What is the difference between cougars and reapers on that?
Reapers are ranged so they dont stand in melee and progressive dosent have that big range
I have found a use for reapers too now
They are superior in :
Nursery, cause i can keep killing and never stop
In kartia, botb solo and group cause of aoe and cause mobs run so much and cause boss is melee unfriendly
Teredor, tried cats there but they just get killed, went reapers and they can stand in poison and just nuke
I tried using them in swamp, but their slow killing spd is just so slow..
Cougars kill so much faster
In Soa i look at the group setup and if we got 3 aoe classes i stay with cougars and if we lack aoe i go reapers
Havnet been much in harnak lately, rarely have time with soa and both kartias
Can you explain to me that? I am summoner and i dont know how healer class skills work. What is the difference between cougars and reapers on that?
Reapers are ranged so they dont stand in melee and progressive dosent have that big range
......
I tried using them (reapers) in swamp, but their slow killing spd is just so slow..
Cougars kill so much faster
In Soa i look at the group setup and if we got 3 aoe classes i stay with cougars and if we lack aoe i go reapers
Havnet been much in harnak lately, rarely have time with soa and both kartias
As Bleophan said, progressive heal is weaker the more people it heals, so when tank is surrounded by other characters + cougars progressive heal heals for what seems like 70% less hp.
As for cougars v reapers in swamp, I like reapers because as in nursery you can just run round the swamp hitting mobs once and let the reapers mow them down as you run, also get a pile of mobs and AOE them. Cougars didn't seem to do as well like this when I tried.
I tried reapers and cougars on SoA, by the time cougars kills a whole group, reapers only 1/2Hp of the group. About heals on SoA, well I don't know who is your tank, but sometimes I go there without a tank and can easy stand one group without giving any troubles to the healer (but that with my friends, I would never try with random party).
I don't know how do you AoE on swamplands, by the time I change the target with reapers, the mob they where hitting it's almost death, so I don't see the beneficts of AoE (and find a empty spot on swamp it's quite hard too)
You don't need to AoE in swamps to make reapers useful, they're useful on their own.
I use two different weapons however, I have both a mage weapon and a bow. If they don't have 150 ele than they're going to hit a lot less than they should as well. When I use reapers on swamp I nuke with Invoke and Mark of Fire while the reapers use their drain and the mob will die in under a few seconds while I keep running.
As I said before though people like to mix and match and use what they like the most. With a bow I have no complaints about reaper auto attack damage, or nuking damage for that matter, but I prefer to enhance their, and my own nuking abilities and use a mage weap with them.
200k shots for less than 2 hours of grinding....
Guess I'm missing something here, How are you getting 200k ss in 2 hours, I've been just crystallizing some of my full drops and using the create ss skill on my toon, Is there a better way that I've been missing.
Guess I'm missing something here, How are you getting 200k ss in 2 hours, I've been just crystallizing some of my full drops and using the create ss skill on my toon, Is there a better way that I've been missing.
1) Create a new character on the same account of your main character
2) Level up to level 40 (with quests to levle 20, then some places are better than quest, up to you)
3) Do second class transfer on this toon
4) Go to the Path to Awakening Website, select your server, your newly crreated charater.
5) Claim reward
6) Log on your main character (the one you want SS on it)
7) Go to the Dimensional Merchant, and claim the Mentee Certificate
8) Go to the Mentor Guide, exchange Certificate for Diploma
9) Exchange diploma for SSR/BSPSR with 0 weight
After reading posts about summoners and finally making one, I'm surprised I haven't yet read that the reapers main attack is archery. So in any scenario where the reapers can kill before the mobs get to far into the close-range archery nerf, they are good. Otherwise cougars. If you are in a group, then it's your call to play as archer or melee.
I like reapers a lot in fields because they don't run back to master and lose time. But if I can't drop the mob before melee range with reapers, then cougars or trade off as not to get bored.
As for their skills, I box my summoner with my Iss as main, so I don't hit all those buttons. It's just nice to have a versatile and powerful DD to assist my support class in leveling (not to mention I can pick up drops without loss to exp rate). Anything tough enough to require a live played summoner (versus live Iss?!) an actual party would be better anyway.
After playing a Summoner in AoE groups (both Harnak and SoA) the only time I'd use Bow+Light+Cougars (and possibly Transformation) is in Harnak because the Cougars are really good at zerging down Weiss Eles, which can be a total PITA if like 3 of them spawn. The reapers are superior for AoE, and it's not as close as was discussed earlier in the thread.
The reapers do not normally get huge crits like was discussed earlier. The damage does skyrocket during i.e. Battle Rhapsody (due to the way summons double dip buffs e.g. Ultimate Servitor Sharing) but normally their crits are much lower than was stated earlier. Anyone going summoner to go to Harnak and think they'll be seeing 75k crits every 3 seconds is setting themselves up for disappointment. That being said, I don't tend to group with Daggers in AoE areas and my groups tend to be Mage/Archer groups.
I basically only use the Cougars on High HP Single Target and RB type MOBs (soloing old RBes, Kartia last boss, etc.) - notwithstanding those situation like the one I mentioned above.
For soloing Swamplands and Altar I use Reapers + Transformation with Light Armor and Bow. They're overall better than the cougars because of their range so even if the cougars kill a bit faster the reapers will make it up by killing more mobs in the same timespan in a field due to being able to engage more quickly.
The use of Cougars or Reapers depends on a few things:
1) how easy it is to keep your pets doing damage to the target (range/durability of targets)
2) how easy it is to keep the pets from dying
3) number of targets
4) resistance to melee or archery/magic (this one is a lesser issue for now as quite frankly I have not found a target where this matters much)
The cougars are by FAR better damage dealers than the reapers if:
-You have no trouble keeping the cougars alive and on target
-You have less than 16 targets in camp
The reapers are better if:
-Your cougars keep dying due to AoE or aggro
-Your target keeps moving or uses fear or other point-blank control.
-You can consistently keep more than 17 mobs in camp. (around 16 is break-even for me, assuming the mobs are no weaker or resistant to magic or melee)
Why are cougars better dds overall?
-Cougars crit for five figures (10k+) mulitple times per second even without rhapsody, and tend to be upwards of 20-30k even without a godly group or transform. With transform and weaker target they can and do provide STREAMS of 40k+ hits on mobs... those streams are so fast you cannot even read the numbers right... you have to go back in the log to see them.
-Cougar crit rate = 44%+, reaper magic crit rate max = 16%, pcrit = 22% or so
-Patk scales better than matk and summoners give almost twice the % of their patk to their summons than they do matk.
-Reapers nuke for 8-10k at best and usually aoe crit for around 9-15k even with full buffs and Matk equipment. I think my highest reaper nuke was around 24k as compared to the cougars exceeding 70k. Rhapsody does NOT give anywhere near as good of a boost to magic as it does melee as cast speed no longer affects refresh.
-Low magic crit rates result in few crits... most of the time even in a group of 16, you will see 1 or 2 crits per reaper for 9k and mostly 3k hits.
-Reaper AoE the only place they begin to catch up naturally has a cooldown and a cast time. (cougar melee is just an insane stream of crits)
-As buffs get better and gear gets better, Patk scales better, atk spd scales better...
(double patk is double damage, double atk spd is double damage until cap, matk must quadruple to double damage, cast speed has almost no effect on damage output for reapers)