The reason ppl dont bring a second othell is coz they are a bit too squishy, and lack aoe capability. Most content ppl group randomly for today is aoe.
The reason ppl dont bring a second othell is coz they are a bit too squishy, and lack aoe capability. Most content ppl group randomly for today is aoe.
The answer is:
No we don't. But it's not gonna bring the end of the world if we get a second one.
For example:
People are afraid of making instances without healer/tank or even solidarity lvl 3.
You can't change their minds and you definitely don't hold enough mental reserves to waste in order to teach them.
The answer is:
No we don't. But it's not gonna bring the end of the world if we get a second one.
For example:
People are afraid of making instances without healer/tank or even solidarity lvl 3.
You can't change their minds and you definitely don't hold enough mental reserves to waste in order to teach them.
i love ur post !
wanted to say this ... blocklist almost full , cant ignore all of them cause someone in pt is every time crying to invite this and this ... **** naia!
2 othels or 2 archers **** most of the end game bosses afaik than having sol3. On epic spez same geared players, othell is doing 30% of the dmg which scales higher with each level after 95.
maybe depends on raid boss as on anthy/valakas on naia even hero dagger changes to his 97+ archer sub cause it does more dps..
and even thou I agree redman is a nub he is 99+ and been at many end game raids to know what he's talking about.. unless of course there are more ppl here who can claim they have been at anthy/valakas/epic tauti, octavus & istina and even trasken raids since GoD started hmm ?
also his fail sub is an othell rogue so yeah he knows the differences between the 2 classes..
anyway back on point basically anything is better then a mage when it's about doing raids :)
Depends which Instances.
I've done K85,90,95, Teredor, Spezion just with 1 Iss and no Healer. Also Kartia is possible without healer and without tank.
So because the easiesrt instances can be done without either a tank or without a healer then we shouldn't feel the need to take a healer or tank into any instance?
As a Feoh I feel that rebirth is a necessity.
Either you have bad MP management... Or you should include a Wynn and tell your healer to recharge you sometimes.
lol indeed...
how you guys manage to run oom with no recharge or rb is beyond me
as a feoh you dont need wynn or healer to recharge you at all unless its some idiot with 3rd class skills eating his mp
I just stopped recharging mages, if they dont use the skill.
And they can ask for mp til they are blue in the face.
Sometimes you just have to teach ppl.
I taught to 2 Feohs exactly this way.
One had the nerve to say that since he was clanless, he didn't have the clan skills needed to regenerate enough MP through BtM. I laughed so much that I almost fell from the chair.
Depends which Instances.
I've done K85,90,95, Teredor, Spezion just with 1 Iss and no Healer. Also Kartia is possible without healer and without tank.
i never look for tank :D if theres a normal tyrr or a 95+ every instance can be done without it ... anyway nobody has alot of time to wait a tank whos playing with your nerves :D
Othell Rogue in pt:
*Poizon zone: continuous dmg per second on area, nerf on p.def, m.def, speed and p.atk.
*Critical weakness (take a wynn with u, a rhapso and smile like a child in christmas)
*Half Kills (If u are lvl 97 and need go make daily in seed of hellfire, u know pretty good what I'm talking about :D )
*Throw Dagger: helps a lot if u know how and when to use.
*HUGE dmg on a single target.
On my view, the best class combination for a pt is:
Sigel + Aeore + ISS +2x Wynn + Othell + Yul or Feoh (Feoh is best for mass skills on mobs but criticals from yuls at bosses are really nice).
obs: Sorry for don't say anything about tyrrs, but honestly they can be nice at pvp (if they know how to play) but in pve they sucks ;/
Othell Rogue in pt:
*Poizon zone: continuous dmg per second on area, nerf on p.def, m.def, speed and p.atk.
*Critical weakness (take a wynn with u, a rhapso and smile like a child in christmas)
*Half Kills (If u are lvl 97 and need go make daily in seed of hellfire, u know pretty good what I'm talking about :D )
*Throw Dagger: helps a lot if u know how and when to use.
*HUGE dmg on a single target.
On my view, the best class combination for a pt is:
Sigel + Aeore + ISS +2x Wynn + Othell + Yul or Feoh (Feoh is best for mass skills on mobs but criticals from yuls at bosses are really nice).
obs: Sorry for don't say anything about tyrrs, but honestly they can be nice at pvp (if they know how to play) but in pve they sucks ;/
Tyrr is quite better than Feoh on bosses for a simple reason... Magic damage sucks on bosses and tyrrs boost phys damage (ofc i'm talking about an even scenario... All w/ same level of gear).
Aside from gathering mobs at one place (something the tank has to do) they are basically a weaker archer on most of the setups for 1/2 party bosses.
1 party boss for me = rogue/ tyrr/ archer x2 or summoner x2 (transformed) or another rogue and a summoner (non transformed), knight, healer, iss
for a second party they can abandon the tyrr and the tank and take 2 of the 3 top DDs (it's simply unnecessary having 2 tanks at istina for example).
As for the Archers they are the ultimate DDs of this game when they have br (by far) and mind's eye + CC just take that even beyond, which is why ppl rely on them on big bosses...
Rogue's role on bosses is reduced to a decent DD which boosts up the other DD's damage nicely... On a strong party the rogue is probably the 3rd strongest hitter (behind the archer and the summoner) and also having a role similar to the iss' offensive role... Boosting everyone's damage w/ poison zone and scorpion poison.
On pvp is another story... We deal high and constant dps (not so constant now that we miss more because of this crappy max crit) but on pve it's all about the debuffs and which classes they boost.
Othell Rogue able to make the best 1vs1 dmg in the game. Even u can use on the place of the tank an Othell Rogue too and move with 3 Othell Rogues.
as 1Peri1 told really important, that the Othell knows how to play.
Othell Rogue way the slowest XPer in the game, but way the best boss killer.
Come on... On high lvl zones rogues are godlike (hf, orbis 3, gf), but they/we have a hard time before that... Besides i don't see rogues as the best boss killers (maybe the 2nd or the 3rd since small bosses receive the majority of the damage on the BR and nothing goes beyond an archer w/BR).
you guys underestimate and overestimate classes for whatever wrong reason. ever played something else than rgue/archers?
a common tyrr has 2-3 times othells patk, has increased critical damage too because of bear (30%), has increased damage to some bosses because of spirit buff (45% damage increase), has armor destruction (-40% pdef) and stacked ones can get to othell crit rate and atk speed. othell has some crit damage too (passive), has poison and increase crit damage debuffs. both classes benefit form each other debuffs. a tyrr has huge survivability and versatility compared with othell, has boost and duelist spirit (if he kept it) for pvp. i dont even have to mention rage for pvp or pve. if othell didnt have half kills id say tyrr is far superior in every aspect to othell.
just because you run with idiots wearing dual blunt with damage up sa (ive seen 97+) spaming megastrike, never buffing themselves spirit or a totem, it doesnt mean tyrr sucks. its simple fact its harder to fail as othell because they cant go wrong with weapons they have no choice other than daggers, they cant fail the SA either because they have top atk speed and crit rate (almost unless stacked) with any SA.
dont kid yourself saying wynn is far far better than tyrr or othell. pets have high patk combined but did you forgot pets have no crit damage from jewels or bear totem or othell passive? a tyrr can get to extreme patk too and guess who has better crit damage, a tyrr or a summon? a wynn without othell and tyrr debuffs has lol damage, worse if none activate his crit damage buff.
what makes mages damage bad at bosses is the lack of critical damage and debuffs. supposedly you gain crit damage from aq/baium in lindvior, maybe tatoos too, none from buffs or passives (as tyrr/othell/yul) and some of the mdef debuffs will work but physical classes has more and stronger accumulated debuffs, even mages contribute to physical classes with debuff. this is the reason physical classes are more efficient but take away these debuffs and jewels crit damage/temporary buffs and mages have much better damage to begin with.
you guys underestimate and overestimate classes for whatever wrong reason. ever played something else than rgue/archers?
a common tyrr has 2-3 times othells patk, has increased critical damage too because of bear (30%), has increased damage to some bosses because of spirit buff (45% damage increase), has armor destruction (-40% pdef) and stacked ones can get to othell crit rate and atk speed. othell has some crit damage too (passive), has poison and increase crit damage debuffs. both classes benefit form each other debuffs. a tyrr has huge survivability and versatility compared with othell, has boost and duelist spirit (if he kept it) for pvp. i dont even have to mention rage for pvp or pve. if othell didnt have half kills id say tyrr is far superior in every aspect to othell.
just because you run with idiots wearing dual blunt with damage up sa (ive seen 97+) spaming megastrike, never buffing themselves spirit or a totem, it doesnt mean tyrr sucks. its simple fact its harder to fail as othell because they cant go wrong with weapons they have no choice other than daggers, they cant fail the SA either because they have top atk speed and crit rate (almost unless stacked) with any SA.
dont kid yourself saying wynn is far far better than tyrr or othell. pets have high patk combined but did you forgot pets have no crit damage from jewels or bear totem or othell passive? a tyrr can get to extreme patk too and guess who has better crit damage, a tyrr or a summon? a wynn without othell and tyrr debuffs has lol damage, worse if none activate his crit damage buff.
what makes mages damage bad at bosses is the lack of critical damage and debuffs. supposedly you gain crit damage from aq/baium in lindvior, maybe tatoos too, none from buffs or passives (as tyrr/othell/yul) and some of the mdef debuffs will work but physical classes has more and stronger accumulated debuffs, even mages contribute to physical classes with debuff. this is the reason physical classes are more efficient but take away these debuffs and jewels crit damage/temporary buffs and mages have much better damage to begin with.
As long as we have been playing since Goddess Of Destruction I don't understand how people still don't know what you just explained about Tyrr Warriors
you guys underestimate and overestimate classes for whatever wrong reason. ever played something else than rgue/archers?
a common tyrr has 2-3 times othells patk, has increased critical damage too because of bear (30%), has increased damage to some bosses because of spirit buff (45% damage increase), has armor destruction (-40% pdef) and stacked ones can get to othell crit rate and atk speed. othell has some crit damage too (passive), has poison and increase crit damage debuffs. both classes benefit form each other debuffs. a tyrr has huge survivability and versatility compared with othell, has boost and duelist spirit (if he kept it) for pvp. i dont even have to mention rage for pvp or pve. if othell didnt have half kills id say tyrr is far superior in every aspect to othell.
just because you run with idiots wearing dual blunt with damage up sa (ive seen 97+) spaming megastrike, never buffing themselves spirit or a totem, it doesnt mean tyrr sucks. its simple fact its harder to fail as othell because they cant go wrong with weapons they have no choice other than daggers, they cant fail the SA either because they have top atk speed and crit rate (almost unless stacked) with any SA.
dont kid yourself saying wynn is far far better than tyrr or othell. pets have high patk combined but did you forgot pets have no crit damage from jewels or bear totem or othell passive? a tyrr can get to extreme patk too and guess who has better crit damage, a tyrr or a summon? a wynn without othell and tyrr debuffs has lol damage, worse if none activate his crit damage buff.
what makes mages damage bad at bosses is the lack of critical damage and debuffs. supposedly you gain crit damage from aq/baium in lindvior, maybe tatoos too, none from buffs or passives (as tyrr/othell/yul) and some of the mdef debuffs will work but physical classes has more and stronger accumulated debuffs, even mages contribute to physical classes with debuff. this is the reason physical classes are more efficient but take away these debuffs and jewels crit damage/temporary buffs and mages have much better damage to begin with.
Don't overdo it... Tyrr is cool and quite useful and all but more DPS than a rogue? Only on mobs/bosses who fit the category of their self buff.
And mages aren't weak on bosses because of the lack of Magic CD... It's because of the lack of m.def debuffs.
Other than that the rest i agree... As i agree that rogue + tyrr are a must for fast boss killing.
Don't overdo it... Tyrr is cool and quite useful and all but more DPS than a rogue? Only on mobs/bosses who fit the category of their self buff.
And mages aren't weak on bosses because of the lack of Magic CD... It's because of the lack of m.def debuffs.
Other than that the rest i agree... As i agree that rogue + tyrr are a must for fast boss killing.
wait, is that hard to believe?
as i said, usually a tyrr has 2-3 times the patk of a dagger but to overestimate daggers a bit lets consider 2 times. lets note initial damage done by daggers as X and by tyrr as Y. that Y is basically X*2 as we assumed with the increased patk even if the damage is actually much higher than X*2. lets put it in numbers...
to save you the trouble, considering both have no buffs (except bear cry) or crit damage jewels or other equipment to increase crit damage, i got a 3.6 crit multiplier for tyrr and around 4.75 for othell in practice... with the target having weakness critical on it. no need to specify armor destruction, both classes get the same increase.
theoretically for tyrr is easy to calculate, Y*2*1.3*1.35
2 being from critical attack, you hit twice as hard with crit than normal damage. 1.3 comes from bear cry (30% critical damage) and 1.35 comes from weakness critical (35%). so 3.51 is not far from 3.6 crit multiplier.
for othell is harder to calculate unless i do multiple tests. othell 4.75 crit multiplier comes from rear damage, frontal damage is much closer to 3.75 so its a must to hit from behind. both classes get increased damage hitting from behind but the crit multiplier of tyrr doesnt change. its harder to calculate for othell because you have crit damage passive and that is added to the damage, have to know patk and pdef, calculate more and so on. another thing have to be mentione, othell doesnt get the same multiplier from weakness critical debuff, its actually less for othell dunno why.
in the end we obtain 4.75 crit multiplier for othell and 3.5 for tyrr
obviously othell crit multiplier are harder and you might go to the conclusion othell hit harder but put X as 500 damage (othell damage) and Y as 1000 (tyr damage) and see where this is going.
now for this to be true, both need to have same atk speed and critical rate. for othell is easy to get top stats of both but for tyrr is much harder, almost impossible if you are a tyrr with dual blunt and damage up SA... because you heard blunt has best damage with skills and damage up add more damage.
a stacked tyrr can get to those stats too and in the end a crit from tyrr is harder even with lower crit multiplier.
but then you add rage and br, your crit damage is further increased from rage, if you stay at 30% hp you can get at least 5 times othells patk (with same br) and match archers patk with br. that patk might be more than 5 times considering tyrrs get warrior and othells get knight harmony. you dont have anything like rage but be happy you have half kills, your blow skills consider critical damage and you have clones.
As long as we have been playing since Goddess Of Destruction I don't understand how people still don't know what you just explained about Tyrr Warriors
Have you seen how some people play their class in general? And Tyr's are one of the most common classes around. It's not rocket science... some people just have no concept of how to play other than getting buffs... MAYBE doing a self buff, and then auto attacking.
If you're lucky they might use one or two skills.
If you're really lucky they won't go AFK at random times and hold up the party or get them killed. SOA, Terador, and K85 can be hilariously bad with some of the people out there. It's really no wonder people get to 90+ with certain assumptions about classes, as the "bad" is all they have ever really seen of some of them.
One had the nerve to say that since he was clanless, he didn't have the clan skills needed to regenerate enough MP through BtM. I laughed so much that I almost fell from the chair.
I teach everyone this way...if ppl want to play God and think they they only DD in grp and spam skills to mana gone....he/she w8s for mana.....tho as healer we have a reggen skill BUT it is NOT our primary role as a healer. It is EVERYONES Job to watch their own mana and use it accordingly ( not every skill needs to be a 1/2 kill.....and ppl have the Audacity to call healers s hitty healers cuz they dont want to open their eyes to what themselves are doing wrong. PPL who spam skiils will NOT come into any party of mine again. As a healer i want and expect Mana Efficiency from everyone so i can concentrate on my Primary Role.......Healing and Debuffing, then and only then if i have time to regen ppl, i will
I teach everyone this way...if ppl want to play God and think they they only DD in grp and spam skills to mana gone....he/she w8s for mana.....tho as healer we have a reggen skill BUT it is NOT our primary role as a healer. It is EVERYONES Job to watch their own mana and use it accordingly ( not every skill needs to be a 1/2 kill.....and ppl have the Audacity to call healers s hitty healers cuz they dont want to open their eyes to what themselves are doing wrong. PPL who spam skiils will NOT come into any party of mine again. As a healer i want and expect Mana Efficiency from everyone so i can concentrate on my Primary Role.......Healing and Debuffing, then and only then if i have time to regen ppl, i will
Ideally everyone in the party will have their MP last with only a spot regen long enough to hit each rebirth. That is an efficient party that is maximizing it's skills/damage with longevity.
As a healer it IS your job to mp regen, it's just not your only job, and you are not there to babysit any single person in party for mp... and many people playing a variety of classes seem to think that is the case. Those ones... yeah, feel free to let them wait until you need to use rebirth.
Ideally everyone in the party will have their MP last with only a spot regen long enough to hit each rebirth. That is an efficient party that is maximizing it's skills/damage with longevity.
As a healer it IS your job to mp regen, it's just not your only job, and you are not there to babysit any single person in party for mp... and many people playing a variety of classes seem to think that is the case. Those ones... yeah, feel free to let them wait until you need to use rebirth.
I get so aggravated when I see MP spamming all over the place, especially in spots like GF, where every last MP counts for survival...
Gotta love those Tyrrs who ask for recharge in Room one of Kartia group. Or even Yuls in Quick Fire stance when we go without healer. I watch my MP and I keep it around the same as the healer's, because I know he will rebirth when he runs out.
Good luck playing stigmatized classes. Rumors spread like wildfire that a class sucks and then it's like it's coded into the game, instead of a class being a late starter on skills (Othell) and the fact that more people play dagger than know how to play it well. I used to fear daggers, but then I realized I need only fear the few who know how to play (as for any class). I completely suck at this game if I don't play regularly enough and I still manage to kill people, without Mind's Eye even.
as i said, usually a tyrr has 2-3 times the patk of a dagger but to overestimate daggers a bit lets consider 2 times. lets note initial damage done by daggers as X and by tyrr as Y. that Y is basically X*2 as we assumed with the increased patk even if the damage is actually much higher than X*2. lets put it in numbers...
to save you the trouble, considering both have no buffs (except bear cry) or crit damage jewels or other equipment to increase crit damage, i got a 3.6 crit multiplier for tyrr and around 4.75 for othell in practice... with the target having weakness critical on it. no need to specify armor destruction, both classes get the same increase.
theoretically for tyrr is easy to calculate, Y*2*1.3*1.35
2 being from critical attack, you hit twice as hard with crit than normal damage. 1.3 comes from bear cry (30% critical damage) and 1.35 comes from weakness critical (35%). so 3.51 is not far from 3.6 crit multiplier.
for othell is harder to calculate unless i do multiple tests. othell 4.75 crit multiplier comes from rear damage, frontal damage is much closer to 3.75 so its a must to hit from behind. both classes get increased damage hitting from behind but the crit multiplier of tyrr doesnt change. its harder to calculate for othell because you have crit damage passive and that is added to the damage, have to know patk and pdef, calculate more and so on. another thing have to be mentione, othell doesnt get the same multiplier from weakness critical debuff, its actually less for othell dunno why.
in the end we obtain 4.75 crit multiplier for othell and 3.5 for tyrr
obviously othell crit multiplier are harder and you might go to the conclusion othell hit harder but put X as 500 damage (othell damage) and Y as 1000 (tyr damage) and see where this is going.
now for this to be true, both need to have same atk speed and critical rate. for othell is easy to get top stats of both but for tyrr is much harder, almost impossible if you are a tyrr with dual blunt and damage up SA... because you heard blunt has best damage with skills and damage up add more damage.
a stacked tyrr can get to those stats too and in the end a crit from tyrr is harder even with lower crit multiplier.
but then you add rage and br, your crit damage is further increased from rage, if you stay at 30% hp you can get at least 5 times othells patk (with same br) and match archers patk with br. that patk might be more than 5 times considering tyrrs get warrior and othells get knight harmony. you dont have anything like rage but be happy you have half kills, your blow skills consider critical damage and you have clones.
Have you heard of you know... Offensive skills? Ofc tyrr does hit harder on auto atk, that was obvious from the start.
But i'm talking about damage potential in general and i can say for sure that a rogue does more damage on that scenario.
We have 4 Spammable 1 target blows w/ high power, faster casting and who mostly receive 50% bonus damage from behind (from max critical) and also receive all the bonuses from CD buffs, debuffs and jewelry, that makes the rogues easily outdamage tyrr warriors.
It seems your knowledge on rogues is lacking i'm afraid... You clearly know the game in general but not this class individually.
actually maybe your knowledge is lacking!? skills are not instant and as other high lvl othell confirmed to me, their damage with auto attacks is the same with skills on bosses in same time spent. some skills dont even include crit damage or take all crit damage. i already said the crit damage is higher form behind, i didnt include other debuffs and jewelry because those scale the same on both classes. my bro showed me a picture with a tyrr having over 50k patk, on our servers and achievable as i mentioned before (30% hp, rage, br). tell me how do you outdps that? dont even need these buffs to get high dps as tyrr. btw, best dps daggers i had in random parties at daily bosses had full mp in the end, i guess after your opinion they are really that dumb not to spam attack skills.b ut ive seen worse, lvl 99 yelling at archers for not spamming skills and use their mp at bosses. had nothing worst than having 2-3 archers in party spaming skill, slowest dps ever, not to mention it will never cross their minds to hit each other with pets for cc.
actually maybe your knowledge is lacking!? skills are not instant and as other high lvl othell confirmed to me, their damage with auto attacks is the same with skills on bosses in same time spent. some skills dont even include crit damage or take all crit damage. i already said the crit damage is higher form behind, i didnt include other debuffs and jewelry because those scale the same on both classes. my bro showed me a picture with a tyrr having over 50k patk, on our servers and achievable as i mentioned before (30% hp, rage, br). tell me how do you outdps that? dont even need these buffs to get high dps as tyrr. btw, best dps daggers i had in random parties at daily bosses had full mp in the end, i guess after your opinion they are really that dumb not to spam attack skills.b ut ive seen worse, lvl 99 yelling at archers for not spamming skills and use their mp at bosses. had nothing worst than having 2-3 archers in party spaming skill, slowest dps ever, not to mention it will never cross their minds to hit each other with pets for cc.
Yea most well geared daggers do auto attacks on raids instead of skills, and archers with ME and BR also auto attack for max dps.
actually maybe your knowledge is lacking!? skills are not instant and as other high lvl othell confirmed to me, their damage with auto attacks is the same with skills on bosses in same time spent. some skills dont even include crit damage or take all crit damage. i already said the crit damage is higher form behind, i didnt include other debuffs and jewelry because those scale the same on both classes. my bro showed me a picture with a tyrr having over 50k patk, on our servers and achievable as i mentioned before (30% hp, rage, br). tell me how do you outdps that? dont even need these buffs to get high dps as tyrr. btw, best dps daggers i had in random parties at daily bosses had full mp in the end, i guess after your opinion they are really that dumb not to spam attack skills.b ut ive seen worse, lvl 99 yelling at archers for not spamming skills and use their mp at bosses. had nothing worst than having 2-3 archers in party spaming skill, slowest dps ever, not to mention it will never cross their minds to hit each other with pets for cc.
You don't know rogues only that... The only ones who don't include crit damage that are razor rain and dagger explosion.
A good dagger on a boss will mainly keep scorpion poison active as it is our main role at bosses (which indeed makes you find some useless rogues who fail to recognize that) and only then we'll spam the 4 blows ofc but that's not my point. My point is, our main damage source comes from the skills even on bosses because they scale up differently than the other classes which just give raw damage and with that we manage to hit harder than a tyrr... But w/e.
The whole discussion is on tyrr vs rogue dps thing and on the rest we agree (even on their roles) so let's just keep it at that... Just believe what you want since i'm not really the type to go too far on a forum discussion.
mine might not be high lvl but i can still kill some lowbie bosses. of course everyone use poison zone but i know this, skills have animation time and takes time. for example lets say you use one skill and takes 1 second from last auto attack to next auto attack. with dual daggers you do 6 hits in this time. i hit some boss ~25k damage with skill but my auto attacks are around 5k. there isnt a big difference between spaming skills and auto attacks but then br comes in and because your skills are very little affected by patk your dps doesnt increase with skills but doubles with auto attacks.
fortuna epic spez baylor spicula... but only if the party is decent to strong. with random noobs always take tank
Epic/spez/spicula/k85/k90/k95 doesn't require either a tank or a healer. Tuna and baylor is easily done without a tank but I've not tried without a healer although im certain it's possible. Kartias don't even require a tyrr to tank.. Tanked k90 with a 90 summoner even.
So because the easiesrt instances can be done without either a tank or without a healer then we shouldn't feel the need to take a healer or tank into any instance?
Well said. Lots of people discredit tyrr warriors because of their experience with badly geared skill spammers.
Party make up does matter. What is more important is the quality of the players in the party not so much the classes.
you guys underestimate and overestimate classes for whatever wrong reason. ever played something else than rgue/archers?
a common tyrr has 2-3 times othells patk, has increased critical damage too because of bear (30%), has increased damage to some bosses because of spirit buff (45% damage increase), has armor destruction (-40% pdef) and stacked ones can get to othell crit rate and atk speed. othell has some crit damage too (passive), has poison and increase crit damage debuffs. both classes benefit form each other debuffs. a tyrr has huge survivability and versatility compared with othell, has boost and duelist spirit (if he kept it) for pvp. i dont even have to mention rage for pvp or pve. if othell didnt have half kills id say tyrr is far superior in every aspect to othell.
just because you run with idiots wearing dual blunt with damage up sa (ive seen 97+) spaming megastrike, never buffing themselves spirit or a totem, it doesnt mean tyrr sucks. its simple fact its harder to fail as othell because they cant go wrong with weapons they have no choice other than daggers, they cant fail the SA either because they have top atk speed and crit rate (almost unless stacked) with any SA.
dont kid yourself saying wynn is far far better than tyrr or othell. pets have high patk combined but did you forgot pets have no crit damage from jewels or bear totem or othell passive? a tyrr can get to extreme patk too and guess who has better crit damage, a tyrr or a summon? a wynn without othell and tyrr debuffs has lol damage, worse if none activate his crit damage buff.
what makes mages damage bad at bosses is the lack of critical damage and debuffs. supposedly you gain crit damage from aq/baium in lindvior, maybe tatoos too, none from buffs or passives (as tyrr/othell/yul) and some of the mdef debuffs will work but physical classes has more and stronger accumulated debuffs, even mages contribute to physical classes with debuff. this is the reason physical classes are more efficient but take away these debuffs and jewels crit damage/temporary buffs and mages have much better damage to begin with.
Epic/spez/spicula/k85/k90/k95 doesn't require either a tank or a healer. Tuna and baylor is easily done without a tank but I've not tried without a healer although im certain it's possible. Kartias don't even require a tyrr to tank.. Tanked k90 with a 90 summoner even.
yes, i was just adding to the list others posted.
while k90 is easy, you cant really tank k85 with summoner unless you really work your fingers and in k95 once the boss pop berserker rage every few mins, if it kills one of your pets it regen 20% hp.