With the wall of text, you simply forgot (or didn't know) that hybrid healers will be needed because mana will be more scarce of a resource on Lindvior.
I didn't know.
And that new information is actually more reinforcement than refutation of my argument. A hybrid system that increases the number of classes required to form a party and thus decreases the number of parties which can be formed at any given time is antithetical to the old system which was created in order to reduce the number of classes that were required to form a party so that more parties could be formed at any given time
Any player who is asking for this type of hybridization is not asking for a return to the pre-GoD system but for the construction of a system that has not existed before and which can only be detrimental both to the person asking for this system and also for every other person in the game because its only consequence will increasing the time required to form parties and decreasing the total number of parties that can be made. Since the only result of this change is clearly negative and presents no positives to outweigh or at least alleviate the harm then this new system should not be implemented.
And now I will go on to present an irrelevant argument on why the mp system needs to be changed or eliminated.
Conclusion 1: Were the GoD mp system to remain unchanged it would still be deficient. Even so the mp system in GoD is a tremendous improvement over the pre-GoD mp systems.
Conclusion 2: NC should not implement Lindvior’s proposed changes to the mp system because reducing the availability of mp reduces the ability to use skills/spells and is therefore reducing the ability of the players to interact with their game and since this interaction is the basis for why players play the game and is arguably fun then by reducing the ability of players to have and regain mp NC is implementing a negative and undesireable change which they must forego.
The whole point of GoD was fixing a broken system of poorly thought out and executed patches that constantly resulted in a chaotic system of alternating overpowered and underpowered classes. Part of what was broken with L2 was the mp system, especially in regards to casting classes. The whole point of casting classes is that they cast spells instead of whacking things with sticks. In order to do this they actually need to be able to cast spells and for some inexplicable reason NC decided that spells should use a resource system that regenerates much more slowly than it is consumed. When a player has run out of mp they were left unable to play their character because they could no longer fulfill the purpose both the game and the player assigned to that player's class which was either casting healing spells if a healer or casting damaging spells if a nuker. Sure the player could whack whack whack things with a stick for pithy damage when they ran out of mp but if the player was actually meant or intended to whack things to death they would have played a different class which was specifically designed for whacking things with a stick.
I realize that mage weapons actually do have p attack which is generally higher than the p attack of a melee weapon of a lower grade which might suggest that mages actually were meant to alternate between casting nukes and whacking mobs with their sticks. However mages were never the cannons they should have been and were not out damaging melee DPS classes by casting nukes and would certainly have been easily out DPSed by all other DPS classes if you were to average the DPS of a mage who nukes and melees against that of a melee class who only melees. The damage difference between a meleer using that weapon and the mage using it as a melee weapon are enormous whereas the damage difference between a mage's nuke and a meleer is not nearly as large. The amount of damage the mage would do by whacking things with a stick simply would not be making an appreciable difference nor would it be possible for a mage to normally level by whacking things with a stick seeing as mages wear armor with the lowest defense and are among the classes with the lowest hp, accuracy and dodge and hgihest suceptibility to stuns. This general squishiness also suggests that mages were not meant to get into melee range of mobs who used AOEs that dealt high damage because at the time mages did not have any oh **** buttons as they do now. If mages were too squishy to be expected to get into melee range of mobs, were easily outdamaged by pure meleers if alternating between nuking and meleeing then it should be quite clear that the only conclusion we can draw from the design of the game is that NC never meant for mages to alternate between casting and meleeing as a means to manage their resources.
Since mages were not really out damaging the melee classes even when they were only nuking it isn't clear that mages were meant to only throw in a few nukes per mob either. The only way that mage damage could have compared to melee damage was if the mage could constantly nuke in a world where she didn't have to worry about mp consumption. And if the only way for a mage to compare to a melee class was by not managing her resources and if she fell behind by trying to manage her mp resources then we are left with the problem that when limited mp resources are taken into account then the nuking mage would fall far behind in comparison to the melee dps classes which they were supposed to be directly equivalent to. Separate but equal in this case was not equal because mp was not the appropriate system for mages who were based and balanced on the expectation they would constantly be able to cast nukes, a precondition that was immediately and constantly violated in fact by tying spells to mp consumption and then failing to give mages mp regeneration that was relatively equal to mp consumption.
Thus the game's expectation of nukers was of a mage who had infinite mp. The argument that mp was present and required for spell casting was to limit the abuse of certain spells which would have made a mage grossly overpowered if they could have spammed them infinitely, those spells being aura flare and sleep. But that argument is without merit because both aura flare and sleep were nerfed so hard and in such a way that they would have been unuseable during pvp even if a mage could spam them indefinitely. Here the position is now presented that pvp balance is the ultimate reason for and end for all the balance changes made to the game and the reason for every decision needs to be addressed based solely on its effect during pvp. Under that assumption we will need to question the purpose of tying spell casting to pvp. There is a huge unfairness and lack of logic in saying that a mage is required to have mp if they wish to kill another player but another player is not required to have mp if they wish to kill a mage (since they can do sufficient auto attack damage to the mage to kill her or failing that they would only need a small sliver of mp in order to deal sufficient damage to the mage such that they could kill the mage using a combination of skill and autoattacks). And wherein is the difference to any particular player with no knowledge of prior events if the mage is coming at them with full mp or no mp? From the player's perspective who can have no knowledge of how much mp the mage has there really is little difference since they will need to act the same way regardless even though for the mage there is a world of difference because they will lose with a 100% certainty if they have no mp and lose with less than 100% certainty even if they do have mp. Not having mp means the mage might as well go afk since they cannot actually participate in the game other than deciding where their character moves and are placed in a position where any other player can dictate the outcome of a pvp match to them. Having mp in any given situation is no guarantee of victory but a guarantee of being able to participate in pvp whereas not having mp is a guarantee of losing and a guarantee of being unable to participate in pvp. And even if the mage has only a sliver of mp that probably wouldn't make much of a difference because if the mage runs out of mp during the ensuing fight they are brought to the same position as they would have been in had they started with no mp which is to say a guaranteed loss and inability to play the game. Compare this to the opponent who doesn't have a guaranteed loss even if he has no mp and running out of mp does not render him unable to play the game. Thus the only purpose mp served in regards to PvP was rendering mages unable to participate when their mp bar ran out.
Regarding PvE mp consumption clearly serves no purpose because the point of logging in to play was logging in to kill constantly kill mobs for hours at a time. Yet a mage who has no mp cannot be thought of as being able to kill mobs and a mage who cannot kill mobs cannot fulfill the purpose they logged in and sat down for. Yet a melee class with no mp could continue to kill mobs because for them mp is a bonus and not a requirement for action. Nothing was more annoying than having to sit down for 10 minutes to regenerate mp after nuking for less than 10 minutes and running out of mp but that was the life of the preGoD mage prior to the introduction of herbs. Even if the mage was in a party they were still running out of mp because ostensibly the healer needed their mp for healing given that the presence of the mage is not going to magically allow them to heal any less than if we were to substitute that mage with a melee dps who could do nearly as much damage as a mage with mp and significantly more damage than a mage without mp. Assuming that healers were balanced to either have just enough mp to heal continuously or an insufficient amount of mp to heal continuously (by healing continuously I mean being able to keep a party up for a continuous amount of time and I don't mean being able to spam healing spells continuously) then the healer clearly does not have enough mp to also recharge the mage. Thus the only way for the mage to participate equally with the other DPS classes in the party would be for either the party to bring in recharger just for the mage or force the mage to box an oop recharger and both of those situations are clearly ridiculous. The former because the party would gain more xp/sp/drops per party member by taking a single DPS that doesn't need a separate recharger and in the latter by requiring a player to pay and play for two characters just so that they can continue to play on the primary character. This problem in regards to a mage's performance in a group was never fixed prior to GoD as the only solution would be to either break the relationship between spell casting and mp or else give mages mp regeneration of a rate sufficient to allow them to cast nuking spells continously.
Obviously neither of these solutions were capable of being implemented both because the designers at NC lacked the intelligence to fully comprehend the problem and lacked the ability to get the other classes to accept that such a drastic change to how mages functioned was a necessary and non-gamebreaking change.
It wasn't until GoD that NC decided all classes should be using skills more frequently than they were previously that the mp problem mages had been dealing with since the alpha stages was finally brought onto center stage and presented a problem that needed to be solved immediately in order for the revised play style of GoD to go forward. There were two solutions that NC could have chosen, one was to realize and accept that mp is an outmoded and illconceived concept and the other was to create a superior system for restoring mp. Rather than rocking the boat, NC went with the more moderate option and gave healers rebirth, summoners a mana sharing ability and all nukers body to mind (but the body to mind they gave was insufficient and poorly conceived both because it failed to restore an adequate amount of mp per time and because it consumes shots. The change made in the proceeding update failed to address the shot problem. A better change to body to mind would have been to either make it a physical skill so it doesn't consume BSPSR or else increase the amount of mp restored and not reduce the cooldown). This was a good change in the right direction but this change was insufficient because players would still run out of mp if they were playing continuously in a dangerous area or if they were in a small party without an Aeore or summoner even if they hunt in an area where herbs drop (the game is designed to be played continuously so a failure to allow for continuous play is a failure of game design). Were the system to remain unchanged it would still be deficient. Even so the mp system in GoD is a tremendous improvement over the pre-GoD mp system.
When (or if) Linvior arrives and if it actually makes mp more scarce than it currently is then the only result of such a change must be negative. Making some healers into hybrid mp and hp rechargers will not be the correct solution to this problem as this negative change will still affect any party which does not have a healer in it or if you believe the earlier posts will not have two healers in it since presumeably only cardinals will be able to heal fully and NC is going to balance any new content around having a healer that heals fully (2 healers in a party of 7 when one of them has to be a Cardinal Aeore and the other a non Cardinal Aeore, that is just ridiculous when we already have problems finding enough problems scrounging up enough healers to have one healer of any type per party, the only thing that would be worse is if NC also decides to require two tanks, one human class tank and one le/de class tank). Any change which reduces the interaction players have with the game when that interaction is what makes playing the game fun is a negative and undesireable change that should not be implemented. In conclusion NC should not implement Lindvior’s proposed changes to the mp system because reducing the availability of mp reduces the ability to use skills/spells and is therefore reducing the ability of the players to interact with their game and since this interaction is the basis for why players play the game and is arguably fun then by reducing the ability of players to have and regain mp NC is implementing a negative and undesireable change which they must forego.
It's a bit of a stretch to state what direction the developers were going as in the very beginning there was no soulshots or spiritshots, then there were no blessed spirit shots.
Near the beggining mages did way more damage than fighters until better equipment and buff stacking came around and critical damage eventually became king over skill power. Even for mages maxing critical rate was much more important than M.attk as with the right setup and luck you could magic critical almost every hit for four times the damage.
Skipping to the point, yes summoners won't be mana sharing, as if it was even that important, but all healers have better recharges even though the elven classes are better at it than the human and the human is better at healing.
I think you're overthinking this and don't have all your information together. Look up the patch notes yourself and stop basing your info off these forums as by FACT, not opinion, the majority of the players that lurk here have no clue what they're talking about. Even the community managers, no offense to them as I doubt they play the game much besides testing, sometimes come out with incorrect or no information on subjects. So look into it yourself and you'll find that everything will be just fine.
Also find a good clan with good clan skills and with those alone you'll find yourself with little MP problems no matter what class you play.
Idk, for leveling the mages I've ran with had either MP consumption reduce augments or/and full men tats for leveling. They never seemed to have any issues, and once they hit 99, switch to INT and no one lives long enough to worry about draining their full mp. In addition to that, rebirth is the greatest gift ever given to healers, if they're smart with their heals.
Sounds more like someone to make better decisions when equipping out a char.
It's a bit of a stretch to state what direction the developers were going as in the very beginning there was no soulshots or spiritshots, then there were no blessed spirit shots.
Near the beggining mages did way more damage than fighters until better equipment and buff stacking came around and critical damage eventually became king over skill power. Even for mages maxing critical rate was much more important than M.attk as with the right setup and luck you could magic critical almost every hit for four times the damage.
Skipping to the point, yes summoners won't be mana sharing, as if it was even that important, but all healers have better recharges even though the elven classes are better at it than the human and the human is better at healing.
I think you're overthinking this and don't have all your information together. Look up the patch notes yourself and stop basing your info off these forums as by FACT, not opinion, the majority of the players that lurk here have no clue what they're talking about. Even the community managers, no offense to them as I doubt they play the game much besides testing, sometimes come out with incorrect or no information on subjects. So look into it yourself and you'll find that everything will be just fine.
Also find a good clan with good clan skills and with those alone you'll find yourself with little MP problems no matter what class you play.
None of your assertions are factually accurate except for the fact that I took all my info about the Lindvior update from these forums.
During Prelude archers were doing the most damage because bows were only using 2 shots per hit so archers were able to use shots all the time unlike the rest of the population which also resulted in archers being the fastest levelers (fun fact, the first level 40 character in Prelude was an archer). This was why bows were changed to use copious amounts of soulshots for NG through C grades.
Finally, having a good or bad clan has NOTHING to do with running out of mp. The two things are factually independent of each other. Yes it is quite possible to run out of mp if you are in a bad clan and just as possible to run out of mp in a good clan. If you have no healer in your group (because you are duoing or soloing in swamps/kartia/seed/etc.) and are aoeing then you are going to be running out of mp at some point depending on how lucky you are with drops. As far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with holding the opinion that if one is able to aoe a large pack of mobs in a duo and survive then one should be able to do that indefinitely if one wishes and the artificial restrictions that make it impossible for mages to aoe fast pulls indefinitely (due to the aoe spells costing too much mp) need to be removed. If this means that mages will be able to use their aoe high damage aoe spells all the time and will never use the single target spells that do way too little damage then all the better for us mages because those single target spells need double the spellpower that they currently have.
Finally, having a good or bad clan has NOTHING to do with running out of mp. The two things are factually independent of each other. Yes it is quite possible to run out of mp if you are in a bad clan and just as possible to run out of mp in a good clan. If you have no healer in your group (because you are duoing or soloing in swamps/kartia/seed/etc.) and are aoeing then you are going to be running out of mp at some point depending on how lucky you are with drops. As far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with holding the opinion that if one is able to aoe a large pack of mobs in a duo and survive then one should be able to do that indefinitely if one wishes and the artificial restrictions that make it impossible for mages to aoe fast pulls indefinitely (due to the aoe spells costing too much mp) need to be removed. If this means that mages will be able to use their aoe high damage aoe spells all the time and will never use the single target spells that do way too little damage then all the better for us mages because those single target spells need double the spellpower that they currently have.
- With the right clan skills, you can have +30% of your base mp. That can help.
- How can you get out of mana in kartia (the healer recharges, and if you're the healer, you shouldn't have any problem), swamp (mobs drop mana herbs, just single kill a bit if you're not lucky with those drops)?
- For the seed (SoA I assume), it was never intended to be a solo place (and I don't see people going there without a healer, seems a bit suicidal to me), but the mp herbs drop fairly well.
If you can kill a group there but use 75% of your mp doing so and thus totally depend on herb drops that may come or not, it means that you have to change spot as you can't solo there or you bring a healer.
4 things you're not getting :
- The fact that you are ABLE to kill a mob (or group) doesn't mean you CAN solo at that place.
- If you want a "godlike" class to solo, choose a Wynn or a Tyrr (and maybe a good Feoh).
- If you want good xp in GoD, you have to AoE in full party. (or at least not duo/solo, some people probably can but just a few or very specific parties).
- Use Body to Mind. MP management was always a part of classes like Cardis, Saints and nukers. Just because it's less needed doesn't mean you don't have to manage your mp anymore. If you find yourself out mana too often, maybe you're doing something wrong.
It seems you just want Feohs to be able to solo everywhere, without trouble, and to be able to spam all (AoE) skills regardless of mp.
That's not gonna happen. Ever heard about balance?
Oh, and no, people never asked nukers to "to alternate between casting nukes and whacking mobs with their sticks". When they couldn't cast, they just used to sit. That was part of mp management too (and I speak as a former Shillien Saint/Aerore Healer).
the fact that I took all my info about the Lindvior update from these forums.
PAUSE! That's your first and main problem.
Fix that first then go work on your MP management as even the worst of mage classes in my clan can don't have any mana issues.
@ Ellisande
as long as i can remember i hear you complaining how unfair NCSoft is to Sps, then MM, now Feohs... For years now. Why did you awake then into Feoh? Think a reroll after years of unhappiness would been a good idea.
But lemme get back to what you mentioned:
-Sleep Cast Speed
Back pre the nerf (C3/C4) SpS was the class to go with sleep, nuke, sleep, nuke. THAT was way too overpowered (i had a SpS myself)
I agree, that they had problems with mana. But then Herbs got implemented and it became much easier.
DPS in PVE:
-I wonder how the best xp/hour before GoD been Mages in LoA?
DPS in PVP:
-Ye, cos Daggers been that great without any mp,
-Ever tried to do 9vs9 / mass pvp as Duelist without MP? Was nothing more as a huge HP/CP Meatshield (Why do you think most Duelists even had a 85 Kookabura with them for that?)
GoD and Feohs:
On my 86 Feoh i could xp 3hours at Bloody Swampland with only a Iss behind me. Never had mana problems, nor had i to use BTM. It wasn't even needed to pick all the mana Herbs.
I used a Apo Retributer Acumen + Immo Robe Set, no clan skills, no mana up, no clarity talismans, nothing.
Kartia and running out of Mana? Never had this happen in Kartia Solo, nor in Kartia group. Just use BTM every time you can. I even did K group with 2 more Feohs and only 1 Healer, no Wynn. We still had no mana problems.
SoA and MP problems?
There drop enough Mana Herbs, just make sure that you pick some from time to time. Ofc if you don't care about sharing the herbs in the party, well...
And single target skills need 2x power? Ye, cos the dmg is soo low in pvp/pve... I suggest you to reroll/dualclass a Yul, it's the class to go ATM :)
Obviously neither of these solutions were capable of being implemented both because the designers at NC lacked the intelligence to fully comprehend the problem and lacked the ability to get the other classes to accept that such a drastic change to how mages functioned was a necessary and non-gamebreaking change.
Obviously you lack intelligence needed to learn, how to play a mage. How come, over these years there were so many generations of happy mages, and so many mage PVP parties that used to dominate everything, and poor you always had underpowered class.
As others already told you, you should either reroll, or learn how to play.
Oh, and also you should learn, how to format your texts to manageable length and form sentences straight to the point, instead of bombarding us with your graphomania.
Sorry, i am one of the worst nukers but in GoD i have never ran out of MP on mine on any situation on a nuker, actualy i could manage better than most other classes with my MP.
writing: "plz nc make nukers op" would have been a better idea than writing the great wall of china full of lies trying to convice people that has been playing this game for years that the mages were underpowered all this time
If mages were so underpowered, how come devs added UD to almost every mob out here? And that UD reacts to magic skills cast by the player.
Therefore, mages were far from being underpowered. Look at the fact the devs purposefully added UD to slow down their levelling, thus making them more easily reachable, both for levelling and PvP purposes...
Not to mention that the great number of player UDs geared towards resistance against magical damage, should be enough to make people think about how OP nukers were.
Conclusion 2: NC should not implement Lindvior’s proposed changes to the mp system because reducing the availability of mp reduces the ability to use skills/spells and is therefore reducing the ability of the players to interact with their game and since this interaction is the basis for why players play the game and is arguably fun then by reducing the ability of players to have and regain mp NC is implementing a negative and undesireable change which they must forego.
Lmao! I can't believe you have been playing this long and still fail to realize the purpose of resting mp. You know how you interact with your game? By actually sitting down resting your mp, and observing it! I met many a ppl sitting regening my mana in the hallways of the catacombs way back when.
NC wants us to rely on other players for hunting...aka healers/recharging to INCREASE usefulness of classes. Who would you be interacting with, if you could just solo grind, with no downtime, and skill spamming?
Infact it was a great way to take a bio, grab some grub or a drink while your mana regens.
None of your assertions are factually accurate except for the fact that I took all my info about the Lindvior update from these forums.
During Prelude archers were doing the most damage because bows were only using 2 shots per hit so archers were able to use shots all the time unlike the rest of the population which also resulted in archers being the fastest levelers (fun fact, the first level 40 character in Prelude was an archer). This was why bows were changed to use copious amounts of soulshots for NG through C grades.
Finally, having a good or bad clan has NOTHING to do with running out of mp. The two things are factually independent of each other. Yes it is quite possible to run out of mp if you are in a bad clan and just as possible to run out of mp in a good clan. If you have no healer in your group (because you are duoing or soloing in swamps/kartia/seed/etc.) and are aoeing then you are going to be running out of mp at some point depending on how lucky you are with drops. As far as I can tell there is nothing wrong with holding the opinion that if one is able to aoe a large pack of mobs in a duo and survive then one should be able to do that indefinitely if one wishes and the artificial restrictions that make it impossible for mages to aoe fast pulls indefinitely (due to the aoe spells costing too much mp) need to be removed. If this means that mages will be able to use their aoe high damage aoe spells all the time and will never use the single target spells that do way too little damage then all the better for us mages because those single target spells need double the spellpower that they currently have.
I was an original archer and was one of the highest levels on Dev till C2 (was 63 when c2 hit and no skills after 58 so eh leveling was kind of slow and only could xp in AL) I never used shots until C2, i had about 500 -1000 on me at all times for pvp or bad pulls but archers had low carrying weight and with arrows, pots, and ss u had to scarf ice something or you could not xp.
Reason why archers leveled so quick had nothing to do with shots it was because of exploits. I could perch get buffs from a prophet and kill mobs who couldn't even get to me, archers had longer ranges then mages back then and could crit kill in 1 hit so mp was not an issue with bts.
It was not until C2 the archer nerfed kicked and MP consumption for bows was pushed up it was so bad that I think in C5 ? they added pain of saggeriterus because no one wanted to group archers anymore because we could not be mana regen as effectively as nukers with a SE or EE.
In C2 Necros and Spellhowlers were the quickest levels because of CDL, they could one hit pink mobs for half the mp of a normal nuke, the chance of death was counter by the amount of xp they were gaining. As they would body to mind with CDL to keep hp low they would never run out of my trust I know as I played a necro also and leveled like a beast until c4 as one.
gonna assume I'm a fresh new player and fell on this boards to seek some info, then what could I conclude about your thread? let's see:
> mages are (now and ever) underpowered, 'cause they cant kill anything at all and rely on "whacking with sticks";
> mage's mp management is terrible, and its playstyle is sitting down all the time;
> mage players can't interact with game, fully
> if mages wanna kill something, they HAVE to cast aoe nukes even on single targets mobs, all the time;
> BtM (even the revamped one) is a waste, 'cause it consumes bsps
> mages can't pvp, specially against melee chars, 'cause they will lose with bad pdef/no evasion/low hp, fact;
> mages cant solo, even in "solo areas", due to mp issue: they cant do massive aoe skills in solo mobs;
> turning skill not being tied to mp would be the "perfect" solution, 'cause have no mage players happy atm just doing to flood cities.
well, as @dreamer asked and I do now, for how long more, @ellisande? If I had played a game with a depressive counterback too higher on me, I'd quitted it already, for sure. Furthermore, since your opinion in this thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=245929&highlight=unleash+hell), I didnt see too much nonsense :p
About healer and mp management: there wont be a NEED of 2 healers in pve situations, imo, since Aeore will remain with their former skills (heals/recharges/purges/cc) like the same, but the only diff will be: SS/ES aeores will be more efficient at mp recharge than cardinal aeores cause of Superior Mana Gain buff (then if today you have to throw 5 recharges to get 30% target mp back, then it'ill be 2 or 3 doing this same effect); in other hand, cardinal aeore will be a MUST in clan pvp/siege situations, due to its ability to wide heal clan members (and since all decent pvp group have 2 aeores, it wont be a problem at all). But dont burn in expectation, gonna sit, relax and w8 for the news coming!!
Summoners lose the ability to recharge party member's MP.
Healers become better at recharging MP with
Aoere Shillien Saint > Aoere Eva's Saint > Aoere Cardinal in recharging strength.
MP should not be a problem for anyone as there is so much MP and ways to restore MP now that my CP healer uses both frantic casting and inquistor stance 24/7 while wearing heavy and just rebirths once a blue moon and the rest of the party uses so little MP that recharging is actually unnecessary.
As for feoh wizards being a little weak. Yeah a little at end game, but their survivability is pretty good against all classes except archers and certain summoner setups so with a little skill and a little money you'll change your mind about feoh wizard's being underpowered.
Otherwise either reroll (leveling is so fast and easy now)
Or quit like the other thousands have so far.
Near the beggining mages did way more damage than fighters until better equipment and buff stacking came around and critical damage eventually became king over skill power. Even for mages maxing critical rate was much more important than M.attk as with the right setup and luck you could magic critical almost every hit for four times the damage
That was not for a long time, it was posible for those with valakas, talisman, augment and guess what, probably 0.1% of mages had that setup. They changed the magic crit to 2x, capped magic crit rate to 20% and so on.
If mages were so underpowered, how come devs added UD to almost every mob out here? And that UD reacts to magic skills cast by the player.
Therefore, mages were far from being underpowered. Look at the fact the devs purposefully added UD to slow down their levelling, thus making them more easily reachable, both for levelling and PvP purposes...
Not to mention that the great number of player UDs geared towards resistance against magical damage, should be enough to make people think about how OP nukers were.
UD was added because the devs were thinking that mages should lvl in spots like field of whispers/silence and other crap spots and everywhere else its for other classes just not mages. Of course they failed miserably and guess what, pole/melee groups where able to xp almost everywhere with incredible amount of xp/hour.
Mages where OP, yea right. Remember antharas lair, mages where taken just for mass sleep; remember catacombs, all where packed with melees; remember imperial tomb, none would take mages in there; remember fog, a place where you wouldn't bring mages, even if in later updates was designed for mages it was/is still best spot for melee/pole; remember hellbound, a place where a full group of mages would ran out of mana before they would kill a single mob; remember the new giants cave, yea no mages in there either; remember mos, a place designed for mages but only if you had 2 rechargers+elemental master and even then it wasnt such great xp. Magic classes where scattered in solo areas with bad xp or forced to leech in melee groups. Things like, mages where so OP they had to add UD to mobs makes me LOL so hard, I cant believe there are so many clueless players.
Yes, mages had good pvp damage with all available buffs but not the best, there were also very few mages that actually managed to waste a lot of time soloing or bot or whatever and also get good gear from bot parties or ebay or whatever because it was impossible to farm very good gear on your own as a mage. There were also very easy to kill too and with every update, more resists and m.def were added. Remember that archers where getting better and better and most buffs where favoring them with every update, also later, some melee classes became pretty OP, I watched my brother duelist many times wiping groups so easy.This is a waste of time explaining since most of the people here probably didnt even play or they used to play pservers.
Hum, you never saw all those mages in catacombs botting and doing 80-85 there during Gracia time ? Trust me, they were efficient and they took great xp.
remember imperial tomb, none would take mages in there;
I had some great AoE party there with one OL, two sts, one pony (me) and one healer.
remember fog, a place where you wouldn't bring mages,
FoG was basically an AoE place for mage. Of course you won't solo, but there I got awesome xp party too, and I saw awesome party too if anyone remember 30kisses / Cydonius / Aquato & so xping there on Lionna
remember hellbound
remember the new giants cave
Nothing to add there, I agree with you :D
yea no mages in there either; remember mos, a place designed for mages but only if you had 2 rechargers+elemental master and even then it wasnt such great xp.
Same point as before. Xp was not bad, but not awesome
Magic classes where scattered in solo areas with bad xp or forced to leech in melee groups. Things like, mages where so OP they had to add UD to mobs makes me LOL so hard, I cant believe there are so many clueless players.
Let's think about Solo areas so. Varka/Ketra. IoP. Hotsprings. TOI 10 where any sts / necro would SOLO there, catacombs (yeah, mages were able to solo there if they did it right. FoS / FoW (crappy xp, but so easy as mage). Dragon Valley later (awesome place for mages).
You seems to have a biased point, but I had great Mage only party in all the places you listed. There was a point before Gracia Final where melee were not so wanted in AoE party. Guess what we used ? Mages.
Some people had groups here or there every once in a while but it doesnt mean those places where actually populated with mages, the reason most of those places where crawling with fighters like most of the times. Yea, I xped in a catacomb too for a bit but only when I had a prophecy/bd dances and yes I saw those mages that were botting in there but a regular player, a legit one didnt have all of that. I've been in fog and other spots but not on regular basis since it was more efficient with other classes and also mana was actually a problem back then since in close spaces I didnt see herbs. PI wasnt bad either for aoe with mages but you could see the non mage group memebers saying they can get better xp elsewhere. I also forgot about pagan, the only time I saw that place was always on my bishop subclass. Same with dimensional rift, delusion chamber and whatever else was there that I dont remember right now.
There is no reason to deny that fighters actually had a much better time xping, no real problem with mp, vr was available only for melee, crit damage for fighters were increased with every update, from jewelry to buffs and so on. They also got better in pvp. Not saying that mages were underpowered but fighters had a easier time and favored/improved in many ways over the years. Probably the only reason to complain was if you played dwarfs or something but even spoilers had groups more often.
MFW>> People think summoners should be recharging instead of using transformations to plow mobs.
I do agree with you, @zazie, but not at all. If wynns have Mana Share skill, its for one reason. Simple and logical. In though situations, like fighting bosses in fortuna/kartia/spezion or w/e, its ok and welcome if a wynn in party uses his transformations skills to increase dps - I'd be glad to keep all his pets alive with looping heals, but the fact is that some of those wynns simple refuse to use mana share out of boss scenario, even if the healer is with lower mp and had used rebirth a couple of minutes back (then its in cd, ofc) - you know, FH increase 30% mp on skills usage, then if the party gets in real trouble, the healer should burn some of his mana easy. Excluding feohs, 'cause they great can manage their mana with SBtM, othell/tyrr/tank is kinda as mana-eaters right now. To get the same effect of the mana share, I have, as healer, to throw 3+ recharges on each of them > 9 clicks on recharge to restore 600+ mana, while wynn can just do 1 SKILL and restore the same amount for all pt members.
I really understand wynns have been nerfed over 'n over and all they want its pew pew thing, but if you are doing nothing more than sending pets to crash things down and aint in transform stats, then, please, hit the Mana Share icon once in a while and all your pt members (specially the healer) will be happy with this. :cool:
I do agree with you, @zazie, but not at all. If wynns have Mana Share skill, its for one reason. Simple and logical. In though situations, like fighting bosses in fortuna/kartia/spezion or w/e, its ok and welcome if a wynn in party uses his transformations skills to increase dps - I'd be glad to keep all his pets alive with looping heals, but the fact is that some of those wynns simple refuse to use mana share out of boss scenario, even if the healer is with lower mp and had used rebirth a couple of minutes back (then its in cd, ofc) - you know, FH increase 30% mp on skills usage, then if the party gets in real trouble, the healer should burn some of his mana easy. Excluding feohs, 'cause they great can manage their mana with SBtM, othell/tyrr/tank is kinda as mana-eaters right now. To get the same effect of the mana share, I have, as healer, to throw 3+ recharges on each of them > 9 clicks on recharge to restore 600+ mana, while wynn can just do 1 SKILL and restore the same amount for all pt members.
I really understand wynns have been nerfed over 'n over and all they want its pew pew thing, but if you are doing nothing more than sending pets to crash things down and aint in transform stats, then, please, hit the Mana Share icon once in a while and all your pt members (specially the healer) will be happy with this. :cool:
Wynns have mana share because the developers had to transcend the servitor mana recharge. During the discussion of how to make summoners not suck in parties in a new party dependent update after realizing that they made summoners antisocial. One of the ideas was to allow summoners to recharge party members instead of just their own summons to make them more "valuable" for parties. Well it worked out until people realized that recharges are really only necessary for groups with daggers and wizards in them and since daggers used to be exiled from parties I mean groups with wizards in them. After ultimate body to mind was made to not suck, more people began to optimize their mana use and recharging was almost unnecessary due to rebirth, and in most party setups, two rebirths, the developers likely realized that mana sharing as trivial as a share it was for the low MP restored per the long reuse, they decided to reformat it with an immensely better ability while in the progress prohibiting use of said ability in olympiad because it was that much of an improvement. In return they gave healers better recharging because they know the summoners wouldn't miss the old mana sharing at all whatsoever.
So yeah.
As of now most summoners are lazy, no they didn't just become like that. When you go through years of point and click pet attack and pet up drops afterwards like a nanny and lose the only job you had of actually healing the pet (take care of by actual healers) what else are you going to do? nuke every so often with your amazing reuse nukes? Use your DOTs fitted to player health on mobs with 500k-2million HP? Nah you're gonna become lazy and forget to even press mana sharing every 2 minutes.
Fortunately for all you bashers when, if, lindvior comes summoners will have a purpose in using marks consistently and you won't have to worry about screaming at them for mana sharing you can instead add to the torment your healers already receive on healing and ressing.