Adena drop is reduced in all zones, but drop rates will vary since some items have been added/deleted from raid bosses. I cannot really specify all the monsters affected by this change.
Juji the very first Zone that should be effected in order to decrease the inflation cause by bots is obvious:
HELLBOUND cant outline this whole content enough
maybe there is a glimpse of a chance to forward this to the devs if it hasnt yet been done...
Juji the very first Zone that should be effected in order to decrease the inflation cause by bots is obvious:
HELLBOUND cant outline this whole content enough
maybe there is a glimpse of a chance to forward this to the devs if it hasnt yet been done...
+1, this is exactly what needs to happen. Hellbound is over run by chinese farmers. Hellbound/Antharas Lair/Monastery of Silence are full of bots creating an imbalance in the economy of the game. Please make sure you address this issue and adjust the drop rates of the mobs located in these areas.
It is not just ADENA drops which must be nerfed. These places drop great items which normal non bot players are not allowed to get because bots are taking all the spots. And these exact spots are dropping high quantities of adena so must be reduced at a higher percentage than others possibly. They are also great xp places which again, normal players can not take advantage of due to the infestation of bots. Thank you for the replies juji, you are doing a great job.
Yeah, everyone wants Vesper Boots...
The fact they're reducing adena drops in those spots you mentioned is already a first step, maybe I'll be able to powerlevel stuff in MoS without having to look for a room with dead bots /shrugs
The fact they're reducing adena drops in those spots you mentioned is already a first step, maybe I'll be able to powerlevel stuff in MoS without having to look for a room with dead bots /shrugs
well not every1 wants the vesper boots, but for sure the one or another one of you buys a unbind r-r99, b/dear, which comes from the massive amount of moirai full drops up in Hellbound which end up being crystallized and turned into hero chests ;)
well not every1 wants the vesper boots, but for sure the one or another one of you buys a unbind r-r99, b/dear, which comes from the massive amount of moirai full drops up in Hellbound which end up being crystallized and turned into hero chests ;)
Put like this makes sense.
Anyway, never bought an unbind R. Also, since they will come for mentee coins, I don't need to... :)
Anyway, never bought an unbind R. Also, since they will come for mentee coins, I don't need to... :)
also Tif NPC prices of morai/vesper etc. mats & full items is like 10x higher then that of R grade which actually how most adena is made at those spots with un awaken spoilers..
@UltimateHeal, noted about the item drops. We'll need to discuss about this with the team.
The issue I have with this is it's a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.
The adena/drops are, themselves, not a problem. Show me one person in this game who is legitimately going to any of these places and saying, "Wow, I really shouldn't be getting this much adena or this many drops!".
The issue comes from the fact that there are unmanned farming groups in these places 24/7 piling up this adena and either selling it on RMT or funneling it to a handful of people using it to give themselves a great deal of money.
No live and legit person is going to make enough money in these places to set the games economy off balance.
So this "fix" hurts legitimate people, and will not really solve anything... because it will either just drive up the prices for RMT, or they will move these toons somewhere else that is more profitable.
Do you really think these unmanned parties are going to just throw up their hands and call it quits because the adena and drops they collect afk are not quite as good?
The issue I have with this is it's a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.
The adena/drops are, themselves, not a problem. Show me one person in this game who is legitimately going to any of these places and saying, "Wow, I really shouldn't be getting this much adena or this many drops!".
The issue comes from the fact that there are unmanned farming groups in these places 24/7 piling up this adena and either selling it on RMT or funneling it to a handful of people using it to give themselves a great deal of money.
No live and legit person is going to make enough money in these places to set the games economy off balance.
So this "fix" hurts legitimate people, and will not really solve anything... because it will either just drive up the prices for RMT, or they will move these toons somewhere else that is more profitable.
Do you really think these unmanned parties are going to just throw up their hands and call it quits because the adena and drops they collect afk are not quite as good?
Exactly, and if you consider that the adena drops will be low and drops will be lower too then the only effect it will have is the demand for RMT going up!
i would like to invite Figga to this hearing in order to enlighten us weither or not the lowering of Adena drops will effect his influx since the most adena comes from the fulldrops in Hellbound.
oh wait this isnt the long awaited justice league ....:rolleyes:
The issue I have with this is it's a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.
The adena/drops are, themselves, not a problem. Show me one person in this game who is legitimately going to any of these places and saying, "Wow, I really shouldn't be getting this much adena or this many drops!".
The issue comes from the fact that there are unmanned farming groups in these places 24/7 piling up this adena and either selling it on RMT or funneling it to a handful of people using it to give themselves a great deal of money.
No live and legit person is going to make enough money in these places to set the games economy off balance.
So this "fix" hurts legitimate people, and will not really solve anything... because it will either just drive up the prices for RMT, or they will move these toons somewhere else that is more profitable.
Do you really think these unmanned parties are going to just throw up their hands and call it quits because the adena and drops they collect afk are not quite as good?
It is due to the abundance of adena/item drops causing the insane inflation in the L2 economy. And these are the exact places where bots are farming to cause that. I am not saying to nerf all places, just these specific places where we know only bots farm, and no live real players can enter due to this. I believe if these 3 major places are dealt with accordingly, we should see a return to normalcy in item prices, over time at least. This will reduce the number of players who find a need to RMT, because items in game will become more affordable.
i would like to invite Figga to this hearing in order to enlighten us weither or not the lowering of Adena drops will effect his influx since the most adena comes from the fulldrops in Hellbound.
oh wait this isnt the long awaited justice league ....:rolleyes:
Yes and No. Adena in Tully are like 50k / mob, mobs you kill extremly fast. You spoil tons of items too. Iirc I was able to farm legitly like 5 or 6m adena / hour with just a 86 summoner and a Requiem Bow 150 water.
Yes and No. Adena in Tully are like 50k / mob, mobs you kill extremly fast. You spoil tons of items too. Iirc I was able to farm legitly like 5 or 6m adena / hour with just a 86 summoner and a Requiem Bow 150 water.
oh well then u are missing the Spoiler, to spoil literally TONS of materials, and the warsmith to summon the merchant npc in order to not have soe to town and go through the village and farm the Key of The evil eye which turns it to about 30-40m / hour :)
It is due to the abundance of adena/item drops causing the insane inflation in the L2 economy. And these are the exact places where bots are farming to cause that. I am not saying to nerf all places, just these specific places where we know only bots farm, and no live real players can enter due to this. I believe if these 3 major places are dealt with accordingly, we should see a return to normalcy in item prices, over time at least.
And in that assumption you would be wrong.
Because as long as there is a market they will be there to exploit it. And AFK player doesn't care if they need to be there 2x as long to get the same amount, they will adjust their prices/expectations accordingly.
And if it winds up being just totally not worth it, they will find somewhere that is.
Eventually you will run out of places that are good, and either bots will run everywhere because it's all the same, or players will be making no money whatsoever because nothing drops anywhere. That would solve your adena bot problem... everyone is dirt poor... or you can, you know... try and deal with the actual problem.
It sets a bad precedent because it will not hurt those who are not actually there to care.
oh well then u are missing the Spoiler, to spoil literally TONS of materials, and the warsmith to summon the merchant npc in order to not have soe to town and go through the village and farm the Key of The evil eye which turns it to about 30-40m / hour :)
I did it with spoiler once, it payed my apocalypse bow ;) But never thought of the Warsmith, that's clever ...
Yes and No. Adena in Tully are like 50k / mob, mobs you kill extremly fast. You spoil tons of items too. Iirc I was able to farm legitly like 5 or 6m adena / hour with just a 86 summoner and a Requiem Bow 150 water.
I was able to farm 5m in 30 min just from stealing drops from Orbis bots...
gl getting the 190k mentee coins then
Who said I'd buy R99? Not me.
also Tif NPC prices of morai/vesper etc. mats & full items is like 10x higher then that of R grade which actually how most adena is made at those spots with un awaken spoilers..
Actually, I didn't think of that... I collected quite the amount of vesper/vorpal stuff taking dust in my wh :p
Yes and No. Adena in Tully are like 50k / mob, mobs you kill extremly fast. You spoil tons of items too. Iirc I was able to farm legitly like 5 or 6m adena / hour with just a 86 summoner and a Requiem Bow 150 water.
oh i was getting 7-8 mil in forest of the dead many years ago when i was 75 :)
there are really some spots where you can get tons of adena, from some spots in hb or loa, to mos or even newbie spots like toi. mobs can drop 10-20 times more adena than you see in 85+ spots. oh for high hp mobs in hb you take daggers... with spoil, summoner is slower than any melee.
Because as long as there is a market they will be there to exploit it. And AFK player doesn't care if they need to be there 2x as long to get the same amount, they will adjust their prices/expectations accordingly.
And if it winds up being just totally not worth it, they will find somewhere that is.
Eventually you will run out of places that are good, and either bots will run everywhere because it's all the same, or players will be making no money whatsoever because nothing drops anywhere. That would solve your adena bot problem... everyone is dirt poor... or you can, you know... try and deal with the actual problem.
It sets a bad precedent because it will not hurt those who are not actually there to care.
No you are the wrong one in your assumptions. These places are EASY for bots to farm at, any random person with a bot grp can go there to farm. If the drop rates are severely reduced they will no longer farm there, it will not be worth it. But where will they go? They can not go to places which are too hard for bots to farm at, many places in game require live players and active players to xp correctly there. This would kill off many botters, not all, but a great majority of them for sure.
Hellbound is being turned into a level 99 place eventually.
As far as nerfing drops there that will not fix the problem. Id rather have Bots infested in a place i like going to but really don't have a strong need for going there. If they can't put bots where they have them now then they will put them in high level places and places that are needed for ordinary people to level. Also before bots started infesting hb I would go there and make 100-200m in 3-5 hours without spoils completely legitimately while making the same amount of adena from charging to plvl clannies. Before the bots got there a lot of people farmed there legitimately. Lowering adena drops only hurts legit people that can't farm adena on their own.
No you are the wrong one in your assumptions. These places are EASY for bots to farm at, any random person with a bot grp can go there to farm. If the drop rates are severely reduced they will no longer farm there, it will not be worth it. But where will they go? They can not go to places which are too hard for bots to farm at, many places in game require live players and active players to xp correctly there. This would kill off many botters, not all, but a great majority of them for sure.
And what in the history of l2 makes you think this?
You would have to nerf the drops into oblivion for them to move along. They just won't care.
And those "easy to farm" spots? Also where it's easy for legit players to go as well when they are either not high enough level for other spots, or don't have a good (or any) group to work with.
You just make the assumption that a bot is like a live character... they are not.
They aren't going to get fed up at the drops and move along. They will sit there all day every day just like they used to. They will just make a bit less money over the same amount of time. And if they are making so much less money, but there is still a demand for it... they will start more trains elsewhere to make up for it.
There have only been 2 times I've seen less bots in the game.
1) When Gm's were consistently and actively banning the hell out of them.
2) Right after GoD launched and the drops/spoils/crafting/quest rewards were so nice that people could actually gear up their characters cheaply and within a reasonable amount of time.
The moment both of those things went away the bots came back with a vengeance.
Adjusting the players disposable income downwards AGAIN only increases the demand for RMT, meaning this change, along with all the other expenses coming up, is likely to make even more bots, not less.
No you are the wrong one in your assumptions. These places are EASY for bots to farm at, any random person with a bot grp can go there to farm. If the drop rates are severely reduced they will no longer farm there, it will not be worth it. But where will they go? They can not go to places which are too hard for bots to farm at, many places in game require live players and active players to xp correctly there. This would kill off many botters, not all, but a great majority of them for sure.
Your assumption about bots and the people that run them is majorly and severely wrong. They will move elsewhere although some will stay. Nerfing the drops in some of these places makes them useless. The only solution is dealing with the bots. If the bots weren't there you'd see lots of live people farming. Hell I've had to fight for spots at mos/hb before the bots arrived.
Also juji can you move these offtopic posts to a new thread? :-)
and if they start more bot trains to make the same amount in the same time there are more chances to get banned. if they will stay at the same number they are forced to find better spots or... think if this is worth it. see how adena prices in these spam messages i get on daily basis is going cheaper and cheaper? well gl selling the same amount with this lower and lower prices and taking 5 to 10 times (speculating) more time to farm it.
so they are forced to find new spots and that might be? anyway see how the new spots with great adena drop are designed? go to orc land and tell me if you can bot there.
first of all there is quite some talking going on w/o knowing jack about what money we are talking about here.
Back in the days the towers in Hellbound were supposed to be not static but shifting you from stage to stage which ended with the arrival of GoD for god knows which reason. The mobs there are the ones with the highest amount of adena drop currently in the game reaching up to 150k adena per kill. So it is actually meant to be a place to pass by when attempting beleth or the two raidbosses kenchi and the other guy and not be staticly farmed.
Remember the days when stone of purity costed 30-40k each? well Pepperidge Farm does.
if u add the Spoil and korean random drops we are currently speaking of 250-300k adena from one mob up there. I know the drops from the other ones suck but the pure adena is still awesome. Rumor on the street is that one of these dwarfs awakened spoilers is at 90% weight with random spoil mats twice a day. You guys have to realize that this spot in particular is broken because a) there is no proper "fighting" for that spot, oh you died fighting the automated parties or the 95+ protecting up there? well gratz ur ending up outside of the towers making your last attempt to go there spending 30min completely useless. b) the zone mechanics are not working as intended.
So please for the sake of argument dont say that reducing the adena drop would take you uber legit the oppurtunity to go up there and earn some stuff away because you cant farm there without simultanous boxing of at least 3 chars ofc by legit keyboardpiano. Well and earning 7-8m / hour is also done in swampland with a summoner.
Hellbound is the #1 cause of the adena inflation because it generates tons and tons of adena it is not supposed to generate which is why im for the continous resetting of the Hellbound stages in order to prevent the economy going even further down the hill until mechanics work as intended. Wake up, mysterious heroes are already mainly WTT shouting cause the adena pocket is full enough and they need the blingZ.
You dont believe me? Ask a few clannies out and enjoy the ride to Hellbound, btw the entrance quest has been eased up. Go up there and see yourself. Taste the hate of Zulus [R.i.b.H.] and PrincessNuri [R.i.b.H.] and the sudden appearance of r95 chars having the urge to come there and smack yo face.
tl:dr: Hellbound as it is now is destroying the economy hence the leg0t talk. Vote for Stage reset. eKony 2013, we can do this.
and if they start more bot trains to make the same amount in the same time there are more chances to get banned. if they will stay at the same number they are forced to find better spots or... think if this is worth it. see how adena prices in these spam messages i get on daily basis is going cheaper and cheaper? well gl selling the same amount with this lower and lower prices and taking 5 to 10 times (speculating) more time to farm it.
so they are forced to find new spots and that might be? anyway see how the new spots with great adena drop are designed? go to orc land and tell me if you can bot there.
Lol there are places that have 4-5 bots trains in a spot that i can farm the entire place faster than those ks'ing bots. So them making more bots would happen. Also these people that are in the market of buying things for insane prices already have this money so the market for the expensive things won't change which would cause less money to be in circulation for legit people to farm making it harder to attain the billions of adena it takes to buy certain gear. Banning bots is the only solution.
Lol legit people can't 2/3 box now to farm adena? Really that is ridiculous. I ENJOY boxing and playing musical keyboard. I know many people like me. I've shown several people hb and they all went up there at least 10 hours a week for a few hundred mill. So yes legit people can and will and have farmed money there.
Also juji can you move these offtopic posts to a new thread? :-)
btw great you managed to silence this discussion by making juji move things around.
Please tell me more about how you farm the spots of 85 bots with your 99 archer faster and why the decrease is hurting you, im all ears cuz u screwed a yet very important discussion over.
God i wish i had one day as a GM...
Edit: The amount of hypocrisy is raising to new levels yet again. Guess its even better if juji just deletes this thread and the community doesnt get to know what is destroying their economy because some guy is trying to argue with subhuman stuff.
btw great you managed to silence this discussion by making juji move things around.
Please tell me more about how you farm the spots of 85 bots with your 99 archer faster and why the decrease is hurting you, im all ears cuz u screwed a yet very important discussion over.
God i wish i had one day as a GM...
Lol Wtf.. this is off topic and very distracting for people trying to get info about the new patch.
Also i don't have a 99 archer and i enjoy this discussion just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you can't have a civil discussion.
The wynn i want to hb with a few times a week stayed level 86 and had better gear than my main at the time. Before the bots there were some good pvp for the top and 2nd floor (no one was 95+ yet though).
There have only been 2 times I've seen less bots in the game.
1) When Gm's were consistently and actively banning the hell out of them.
2) Right after GoD launched and the drops/spoils/crafting/quest rewards were so nice that people could actually gear up their characters cheaply and within a reasonable amount of time.
The moment both of those things went away the bots came back with a vengeance.
Adjusting the players disposable income downwards AGAIN only increases the demand for RMT, meaning this change, along with all the other expenses coming up, is likely to make even more bots, not less.
NC has re-vamped the crafting system. This includes new materials and a NEW plunder. Asynja hit the nail right on the head. This new craft/Spoil system IS to combat RMT and rejuvenate the economy. Drop acquistion will have little to no effect on the economic situation. Like has been said before, bots will not leave regardless. It's the everyday transactions of small claims items and mats that will be the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back" for RMT's. If Othell FS's like myself offer you the mats to craft your gear 3x over at a 60% clip and STILL be of less cost than buying the actual item-- then this greatly reduces the need for RMT. If this is your class, then you are self reliant. It's not a fix all, but it's a step in the right direction.
Also im not disagreeing that this hasn't influenced the economy. Im saying the damage has been done and what you are suggesting isn't the solution. So your mentality is to get ****** and throw out insults if someone disagrees with you?
Well dunno who the one not able to argue is if you feel heckled and insulted already.
the point is hb as it is now is not accesible to casual player which u claim to be and yet you are butthurt when some1 raises and calls out this place for destroying a game because you went there back in the days which dont exist anymore. The dev told in the interview that hb might get revamped but until this happens on NA servers you already might have quitted long ago because you cant afford a BEAR with your legit playstyle.
Imagine a newbie coming in and racing to 86 getting mentor gear. Gets himself a dozen of runes and rushes to 90 and notices he needs some proper gear because the fellows shine in green and apo weapons and not immortal/requiem. Well guess what he will be able to afford the apo bow for 150m but when it comes to armor he goes next to broke, its the same vice versa. But wait there is those friendly ppl pming me that they have the urge to get rid of some adena just for a couple of $. Do you think he will go out and bust his nuts farming the adena he needs or just pay the 30$ and get his stuff done?
Oh well next up comes the argument of L2 being for the steelballed grinders. Please, there are none left and the ones that claim they do are faking that they get their gear with 3-4hr grind. Well look at the economy of Innova actually there the 3-4hr grind would get you something because the economy isnt wasted to insanity, heck even instances can make your living there.
Dont know what the mentality of "lets not harm those bots the chance of destroying the economy away because mr X and his friends YZ went there back in the days and might try and fail soon " is supposed to mean.
Please, take your friends by the hands and go there on at least Naia,Chronos or Shilen. Most likely you will be welcomed by some Vietnamese or Russian speaking fellow showing you the way out. (tip: its "to village")
NC has re-vamped the crafting system. This includes new materials and a NEW plunder. Asynja hit the nail right on the head. This new craft/Spoil system IS to combat RMT and rejuvenate the economy. Drop acquistion will have little to no effect on the economic situation. Like has been said before, bots will not leave regardless. It's the everyday transactions of small claims items and mats that will be the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back" for RMT's. If Othell FS's like myself offer you the mats to craft your gear 3x over at a 60% clip and STILL be of less cost than buying the actual item-- then this greatly reduces the need for RMT. If this is your class, then you are self reliant. It's not a fix all, but it's a step in the right direction.
The new crafting system/spoil remains to be seen. but assuming things are not too far off from now... I can guarantee with 99.999999% accuracy that nerfing drop rates will do absolutely nothing to decrease bot groups and is far more likley to actually increase it.
The suggestion of resetting the tower stages is ok, but that only works for the tower of naia, and does nothing for the base tower, tullies, or the chimera's. All of those are places with easy to sell items for good adena.
All of those would be nice places for legit people to actually farm some adena/element stones or even some decent gear for lowbies in some cases.
Hurting legit players to punish the bad sucks every time they have done it... this really is no different.
The point is that you shouldn't be looking to only ever treat symptoms of an issue while ignoring the issue itself. If you want to make the hunting areas require live interaction, that's absolutely fine. Resetting stages, requiring you to have to leave and come back in eventually is ok... but they will eventually just script it to account for that, making it entirely hands off before long.
You need something dynamic that can't be automated to do such a thing... or you can just have a gm go through there every couple days and ban hammer everything in there that isn't a live player.
well resetting the stage leads to no access to any content past the village. Let the Chimeras exist, at least thats a spot where legits can easily port and walk to unlike the towers where you have to farm the key then another key and then go up their just to get your **** handed to you and be discouraged to go back there and leave the spot wide open for those doing it for unlegit terms.
For god´s sake log on any server right after downtime and rush to the Oasis in Hellbound. Sit, watch, enjoy.
Only way to solve the RMT problem is to ban the botters and their owners. Nerfing drops won't solve anything, in this case will make things worse.
About the crafting system, is basically worse then the last one. If before you could even craft Blessed item for a 60% chance, now you will be crafting (mostly Normal) for 60% and still no refund on the failed crafts. who will spend time and adena on mats to craft something that is cheaper to buy in AH?
well resetting the stage leads to no access to any content past the village. Let the Chimeras exist, at least thats a spot where legits can easily port and walk to unlike the towers where you have to farm the key then another key and then go up their just to get your **** handed to you and be discouraged to go back there and leave the spot wide open for those doing it for unlegit terms.
For god´s sake log on any server right after downtime and rush to the Oasis in Hellbound. Sit, watch, enjoy.
Been there, done that.
As far as I know I was the first on Chronos to think about farming in the Naia towers. I was there alone on my down time for weeks, letting a few other clannies know about it. I eventually outlived it on my dual and stopped going there. Not long after that it was infested.
I've been there off and on, and while it's a bit of a pain to get there, it's a far cry from undoable. The biggest roadblock for the average player is that they don't even know it exists, and have no idea what you need to get in there.
If the trains were gone, it would not be a big problem to get up there, and would be worth someone's time if they wanted to get some adena, s80 gear, or hero treasure chests.
If the trains were gone, it would not be a big problem to get up there, and would be worth someone's time if they wanted to get some adena, s80 gear, or hero treasure chests.
completely agreeing with you, without bots it would be even worth going up there with a few clannies aoeing there or what not. But heck, ppl dont know about it or do and dont dare to go up there.
Just like the late H5 days where a CP actually went and farmed Kariks using anakims and what not earning a fortune, some legit some a little less but there was handmade work and pvping for it.
Only way to solve the RMT problem is to ban the botters and their owners. Nerfing drops won't solve anything, in this case will make things worse.
About the crafting system, is basically worse then the last one. If before you could even craft Blessed item for a 60% chance, now you will be crafting (mostly Normal) for 60% and still no refund on the failed crafts. who will spend time and adena on mats to craft something that is cheaper to buy in AH?
Well if all your concerned about is blessed items, there will be no thrifty solution.
It's not supposed to be easy to acquire blessed stuff. As i said before, you will spend your adena on mats, if constituting a whole-- it is 3x cheaper than buying the full item from AH. Speaking on behalf of myself, i would implement a sell shop that allows the average player to purchase mats to combat high priced Ah items. Avoid greedy dwarves.
I'm actually reall glad that I stumbled upon this thread by accident.
Some of the points that are brought up in this thread are very valid points, however I feel that most of them offer a temperary solution to a very permenent problem. Botting in L2, weither it be for levels of adena has, does, and will forever be a part of the Lineage 2 game. I belive that lowering the drops will hurt the bots, but it will hurt the live players even more so. If at 97 I grind for an hour solo in my "secret" spot, (thanks KingBuff for showing me) I can get about 20-30 mil in adena only drops. If the drops are lowered I might be able to get 10-15 mil from the same spot in the same amount of time.
Why is this relevent?
My longest grind session at this spot lasted 12 hours. 12 red eye, red bull induced, hand shaking hours. And I loved every minute of it. If a bot comes in and "sets up" in my spot, he might only kill half as fast as I do. (I aoe, they single target) So he gets 7.5-10 mil an hour, but here is the kicker, he comes in on Wed after the reset of the server, 12 hours is nothing to him/her, he stays for a week. Do you really think that going from 10-15 mil to 7.5-10 mil and hour really hurts them if they can stay in the same spot for 168 hours straight?
No.
Does it hurt me? Yes it really does. Not only did I loose my spot to bots (Which yes I know how to take care of that) but also the market is now flooded with 1.6 billion more adena a week, making the "adena cost" of the item go up but the "adena value" of what I have in my invintory go down because there is more of it now.
5 things that I can gaurentee that are happening on our server right now or in the near future.
1. Botting will get worse if you lower the drop rates. New players will suffer, old players will suffer, botters will bot harder.
2. If you lower the drop rates, you will not only see bots in "low" level areas, but also high level ones as well. Just wait, its not just MOS,GC,FOG,HB,Tullies,AL,DV,Harnaks,GoG,Swamps that will be infested, but you will start to see Orbis(Already started)EG(Already Started), HF(Already started) and even CC (already started) infested as well.
3. Before L2 was F2P I would quess that the "average" player had between 50-300mil. Top players 1-5Bil Bots 5-25+ Bil, But with that being said I bet that the Total actual Adena on the server of Bartz was only 500 Billion adena. What is it now? Try in the Trillions. If I was a betting man, I would say 75-125 Trillion adena now exsist on Chronos alone. I have seen people link 99 Billion before. Legit? Okay..... :rolleyes:
4. The number 1 made toon on any server right now. Summoner, followed closely by Iss, then Spoiler. I bet the Summoners outnumber any other type of toon on this or any server 3 to 1.
5. The only way to get rid of these bots is being proactive as a GM. Gameguard isn't going to fix it no matter how many times you patch/update/revamp it. They will find a way. They always have they always will. Just once I would like a GM to log in game, PM me and ask me to show them around. GC, 4 bot groups to a room, Swamps 15 bot groups in the back, one 1 bot group per stain glass room, HB 50 bot groups in towers, GoG ever bot group hugging walls or glitching throught them, Harnaks every room taken all the time, EG well known toon names from "Top" clans detagged for 99 on subs, then retagged in a week or 2.
If you had 1 GM log in once a day on each server run these popular spots, you would see, 90% of your character base right now is bots. The 10% of us suffer for your ignorance and blind eye. Stop trying to fight the "china" farmers, they arn't from china anymore, IP ban people like you said that you were going to, but do it in the US, UK, BR, GM, EVERYWHERE. Yes its not hard to get around but right now its the best and only option. Lets face it GG has been around since teh begining and the only thing that it has ever stopped is a Less Laggy Lineage.
I'm putting in vote first, don't lower the drop rates. Get off you keester and do your job, MANUALLY BAN THE BOTS.
P.S. If you need a person to volenteer for a GM position I will do it without pay 7 days a week. I will not be croocked ......cough....like some of the old staff...cough......
The reason I know I won't be crooked, I'm and Equal Opportunity Banner, I hate everyone Equally. (Even my friends)
lol tryndame im far far away from being insulted. I made an observation that you got butthurt over something so trivial and over someone disagreeing with you. This is an online forum and I don't take things seriously.
Anyways back to the discussion. You fail to understand that lowering the adena drops in certain places will not deter bots. If hb is no longer one of the top places to bot then they will move elsewhere and other peoples bots will replace them possibly resulting in more bots. Let's say R85 gear costs 800m. It would take a new legit player a week playing 3-6 hours a day farming adena in some well known bot places if the bots aren't there. You should have to work for your gear. I remember attaining my first armor set (blue wolf) and I felt very accomplished in getting it after a weeks hard work of working for it with some clan help as well. The price of gear isn't bad really. The price of the rare stuff like epics is what is really out of hand. Also nerfing adena drops everywhere is not the solution. Massive adena sinks are the real problem for casuals like 2nd sa on r95/r99 and pve/pvp stone application.. talismans.. those alone are much more than the price of gear and gear should be more expensive from other players than the adena sinks.
Banning bots is the solution. Nerfing their drops will change nothing.
Very well said KissThis. I really don't have anything to add to that except IF they lowered adena drops they would have to lower adena sinks. If the prices of items were the prices ncsoft designed them to sell for some things would be much higher. Some much lower. I don't think adena drops should be nerfed. Actually boosting them would actually stimulate people to grind for money and leave less need for bots. I think S and S80 grade npc prices should be lowered just because it's not important to the game anymore although Korea is in a different situation because it's free to play until 85 so they want to add more gameplay until 85 and maybe those new free players will jump into crafting which to the devs is a big part of the game.
Also if you are smart you could capitalize on the inflated market. Anyone 97+ can make a few billion in a few weeks if they actually put in time effort and maybe a bit of money into drop runes. I don't have an issue with AH prices for gear like r99 or whatever. My problem is the massive adena sinks that can far outweigh the price of the gear you bought.
I also suspect you will see bots farming R grade and higher places in lindvior since the occasional full drop will be worth a lot more because crushing R grade will yield more items at a higher rate and some new much needed items like elsium.
Calling it as i see it but it seems like you got upset you couldn't farm HB. Im upset about it too but you just wanna hurt the bots by lowering their drop cause you're mad. You are entitled to be mad but your method to a solution is wrong. Ban the bots not nerf the drops. I was utterly ****** about the bots invading and fought them on a daily basis to hopefully slow them down because me and some friends and clannies enjoyed casually making adena there when we needed it. I haven't been there since about march or April of last year actually since i gave up fighting the bots and found other income farming instances with clannies.
Well if all your concerned about is blessed items, there will be no thrifty solution.
It's not supposed to be easy to acquire blessed stuff. As i said before, you will spend your adena on mats, if constituting a whole-- it is 3x cheaper than buying the full item from AH. Speaking on behalf of myself, i would implement a sell shop that allows the average player to purchase mats to combat high priced Ah items. Avoid greedy dwarves.
If you think after the update you will be able to craft bellow the shop price for the items you are in for a surprise! :D
If you think after the update you will be able to craft bellow the shop price for the items you are in for a surprise! :D
I can promise you one surprise revelation...that will be you watching my shops in astonishment like Dr. Malcolm Crowe, as a wedding ring is rolling towards his feet... ;)
You guys who are arguing that lowering adena drop rates WON'T lower inflation are idiots.
Of course it will lower inflation.
Assuming bots are present in virtually every viable open hunting area (which they are right now) there is no "new" place they will go to when/if adena drop rates are lowered.
So (drum roll please), less total adena coming in on any given server equals lower prices.
This is Econ 101 people.
And BTW, the VAST majority of legit people who play L2 do two things, daily quest and instances, that's it.
You guys who are arguing that lowering adena drop rates WON'T lower inflation are idiots.
Of course it will lower inflation.
Assuming bots are present in virtually every viable open hunting area (which they are right now) there is no "new" place they will go to when/if adena drop rates are lowered.
So (drum roll please), less total adena coming in on any given server equals lower prices.
This is Econ 101 people.
And BTW, the VAST majority of legit people who play L2 do two things, daily quest and instances, that's it.
And guess what. If you lower adena drop rates across the board you now have... (drum roll please) everyone with less money!
If you have 10 mil a week in average income profit (example) and you need something that costs 100 mil in the inflated market. It takes you 10 weeks to earn up enough to get it.
If that same item now costs 50 mil, but you only make 5 mil a week.
Nothing has changed in relation.
There are no other correcting measures taken, you have just reduced everyone's income across the board.
Changes like this that impact bots do not ONLY impact bots. They also impact real live people.
The difference is the bots wont care because they are not live, they will only care and move if:
1) The drops are completely not worth anyone being there, live or not.
2) There is somewhere else they can go more profitable.
In the case of number 2, another train can, and will move in behind them because less income/hour is still income and someone will take advantage of it if not preventative measures are taken.
If you don't actively enforce the removal of the bots and/or make things easier for a normal player to obtain... this action does nothing but create more bots to farm.
1- Every mob/instance/raid drops standard items instead of unidentified items now. Very often you can sell those items at vendor for more than market value.
2- You can farm insane amounts of adena in orc land. Like 5x more than a bot train in the best HB/LoA spot can farm.
3- Those bot train owners are not going to bother running multiple parties in 85- areas since the adena/spoil/drop rate of those areas was nerfed by up to 10x.
Instead they will try to run bots in pagans, orbis, orc land or whatever area can give them a decent income. But this means that those areas will be overcrowded and have huge pvp for spots. This adena/drop nerf is a huge win for legit players.
And guess what. If you lower adena drop rates across the board you now have... (drum roll please) everyone with less money!
If you have 10 mil a week in average income profit (example) and you need something that costs 100 mil in the inflated market. It takes you 10 weeks to earn up enough to get it.
If that same item now costs 50 mil, but you only make 5 mil a week.
Nothing has changed in relation.
There are no other correcting measures taken, you have just reduced everyone's income across the board.
Changes like this that impact bots do not ONLY impact bots. They also impact real live people.
The difference is the bots wont care because they are not live, they will only care and move if:
1) The drops are completely not worth anyone being there, live or not.
2) There is somewhere else they can go more profitable.
In the case of number 2, another train can, and will move in behind them because less income/hour is still income and someone will take advantage of it if not preventative measures are taken.
If you don't actively enforce the removal of the bots and/or make things easier for a normal player to obtain... this action does nothing but create more bots to farm.
Wrong, you have only reduced the farmers income because.........
(wait for it)
.............
Normal players don't farm adena.
Crazy huh!
Again, this is very simple, the reason prices keep going up is because the servers are getting flooded with adena. The adena is coming from farmers. If that amount of adena is decreased, prices will drop accordingly. As I have already stated, normal players don't farm so their overall income will remain the same.
EDIT: I don't disagree with you that removing bots is the best solution but I just don't see that happening. Lower adena drops (particularly in those areas that are most conducive to farming adena) will however, help.
1- Every mob/instance/raid drops standard items instead of unidentified items now. Very often you can sell those items at vendor for more than market value.
2- You can farm insane amounts of adena in orc land. Like 5x more than a bot train in the best HB/LoA spot can farm.
3- Those bot train owners are not going to bother running multiple parties in 85- areas since the adena/spoil/drop rate of those areas was nerfed by up to 10x.
Instead they will try to run bots in pagans, orbis, orc land or whatever area can give them a decent income. But this means that those areas will be overcrowded and have huge pvp for spots. This adena/drop nerf is a huge win for legit players.
1) I don't know what the drop rate of those will be vs the old UID items, do you? There could very well be far more "nothing dropped" boss runs than before.
2) How many people will be farming orc lands for adena? And how long till bots have trains there? Lots of places "bots can be used" were regularly farmed not long after. Where there is money to be made, someone will try and make it.
And rodah. I'm a normal player. I farmed adena in the towers for a couple months on my dual... because I didn't have a CP or regular play time to go do those raids and the adena and drops in 85-90 areas was pitiful, as in, barely paying for shots pitiful.
And I'm not alone in that. Not everyone has the time, desire, or ability to go get into a party and farm the key spots for drops that actually sell.
oh i was getting 7-8 mil in forest of the dead many years ago when i was 75 :)
there are really some spots where you can get tons of adena, from some spots in hb or loa, to mos or even newbie spots like toi. mobs can drop 10-20 times more adena than you see in 85+ spots. oh for high hp mobs in hb you take daggers... with spoil, summoner is slower than any melee.
Which is of course a problem because level 85-90 spots require spending like 10 times as much on shots.
But I also agree with the poster above that this "fix" doesn't actually fix the real problem and only harms real players.
A real fix would probably take the form of removing all adena drops from mobs and simulatneously removing shots while doubling player damage output or cutting mob defense in half and reducing mob offense. If devs also make drops have no resell value then the only way for players to increase their wallet size would be by doing dailies which would cap the amount of adena that a player could make per day.
Following that option, another solution would be to simply cap the amount of adena that players can earn per day. Of course this would likely just result in botters creating a massive number of new accounts to farm the daily quests
So perhaps the only real solution is to just accept that botting is always going to happen andnot worry so much about it and instead just focus on not screwing over the real players.
I can't believe this disscusion grew so much. Weren't everyone raging about bots getting a lot of money/drops etc just a few weeks ago?
And I still believe that this is indeed a good idea, the places they nerf are 80-85 level spots, no legit player is gonna farm there. If you have any really good arguments why this shoudn't be implemented do tell them, because as I read the 3 pages there were none.
...arguments why this shoudn't be implemented do tell them, because as I read the 3 pages there were none.
oh wait wait, i heard of a friend of mine that his friends friend went to a stoneaged Content to farm adena there for a couple days and never went there again while bots weretaking care of the spot just waiting for him to come back so they can leave, thats why it should not be nerfed, because his friends friends friend is planning to go there on next full moon night!
Wrong, you have only reduced the farmers income because.........
(wait for it)
.............
Normal players don't farm adena.
Crazy huh!
Again, this is very simple, the reason prices keep going up is because the servers are getting flooded with adena. The adena is coming from farmers. If that amount of adena is decreased, prices will drop accordingly. As I have already stated, normal players don't farm so their overall income will remain the same.
EDIT: I don't disagree with you that removing bots is the best solution but I just don't see that happening. Lower adena drops (particularly in those areas that are most conducive to farming adena) will however, help.
You are wrong. The ONLY reason normal players do not farm for adena on a semi regular basis when they need adena is because those spots are occupied by bots.
Although IF in fact in OrcLand a live party can farm massive amounts of adena and bots cannot achieve anything even remotely similar in the same place then this change to -85 places can be a good thing.
Also to RandomNab how is moving bots to places where people might actually wanna level on their mains be a good thing? It's not. Even reducing the adena drops by 10x will not keep bots from botting there. It will just make the bots that are currently there move and other bots will take their spot. There are plenty of places for people to move their extra bots to and they are places I would rather be clean of bots.
1- Every mob/instance/raid drops standard items instead of unidentified items now. Very often you can sell those items at vendor for more than market value.
Players will eventually catch on and adjust their prices accordingly. The funny thing is, most legits will compete with the grocer, which means their items disappear fast, which leaves the illegit shops there to profit from the hastiness of the people who aren't farmers, but needed a quick sell to upgrade their weapon/armor/etc.
2- You can farm insane amounts of adena in orc land. Like 5x more than a bot train in the best HB/LoA spot can farm.
You need to be 97+ to farm at Orcland. You're forgetting all those people who aren't, which is still a majority of the playerbase. Those players aren't farming that much.
Aditionally, how long are you going to be farming there? Bot trains are farming 24/7 between maintenance resets...
3- Those bot train owners are not going to bother running multiple parties in 85- areas since the adena/spoil/drop rate of those areas was nerfed by up to 10x.
Duh? They're already all over the 85-95 areas and starting to invest the 95+ areas. They don't need orclands, they can offset that by running an extra train. A legit group is not going to outfarm a serious farmer.
Instead they will try to run bots in pagans, orbis, orc land or whatever area can give them a decent income. But this means that those areas will be overcrowded and have huge pvp for spots. This adena/drop nerf is a huge win for legit players.
Only cause you think the game does not exist anymore outside of 97+. You need to expand your way of thinking about. You're a bit tunnel visioned right now.
Many of those lower level players will turn to eBaying adena for gear/weapons, and the farmers will raise their prices to compensate which will raise the price of epics and items in game. It's how this has always gone.
When the GMs were mass banning, Adena prices went through the roof and gear in some cases doubled and tripled in price as a result. A lot of high end players sell high end items to cash out the adena, so when they sell for x Billions adena they're actually selling for x amounts of dollars...
Which is of course a problem because level 85-90 spots require spending like 10 times as much on shots.
But I also agree with the poster above that this "fix" doesn't actually fix the real problem and only harms real players.
A real fix would probably take the form of removing all adena drops from mobs and simulatneously removing shots while doubling player damage output or cutting mob defense in half and reducing mob offense. If devs also make drops have no resell value then the only way for players to increase their wallet size would be by doing dailies which would cap the amount of adena that a player could make per day.
Following that option, another solution would be to simply cap the amount of adena that players can earn per day. Of course this would likely just result in botters creating a massive number of new accounts to farm the daily quests
So perhaps the only real solution is to just accept that botting is always going to happen andnot worry so much about it and instead just focus on not screwing over the real players.
We've been talking about how bad it is to have a reagent for simply doing damage was bad design since 2006 or so. It should happen, but they won't do it because they like the time sinks in the game to keep people playing longer (and longer sessions).
I can't believe this disscusion grew so much. Weren't everyone raging about bots getting a lot of money/drops etc just a few weeks ago?
And I still believe that this is indeed a good idea, the places they nerf are 80-85 level spots, no legit player is gonna farm there. If you have any really good arguments why this shoudn't be implemented do tell them, because as I read the 3 pages there were none.
Right before the bots started showing up in HB there were at any moment I went there at least 2-6 legit groups of friends there. And there were a few afk in the corner so they don't have to run up later when they get back.
If the bots weren't there, there would be a lot of people farming adena there so don't lie to yourself.
guys please let the hypocrisy of "farming adena legitly by hand in a old content with couple of friends" be , else this discussion isnt leading anywhere sensefull.
It's a combination of Rodah and BurnCycles theories.
Rodah is right, average players don't farm, so less bot Adena = balanced prices.
This only holds true if BurnCycles "elite" crew gets smashed along with low level area drop rates, ban the main character the Adena goes to and there's no reason for the farming.
There's 2 types of bad people in lineage 2: the ones that farm Adena for themselves and will pay absurd amounts for items (martelx,sec****y,hitcha, etc), and the ones buying from the farmers (ebless, rumble, sorcerer, etc).
Seeing how you are handed everything from 1-86 except S-Grade shot why not just eliminate adena all together for 84 and below? Reducing it in 84 and below areas and keeping currect ones the same and raising 95+ ones by a bit might no be too bad, as long as the 95+ spots are Aoe only, its easy to flag bots there and take the spot.
guys please let the hypocrisy of "farming adena legitly by hand in a old content with couple of friends" be , else this discussion isnt leading anywhere sensefull.
So you're saying the people that actually do farm legitimately don't exist even though they do exist?
Or you are just mad someone disagrees so you are trying to say the people that exist don't actually exist?
killing the old adena spots doesnt solve much of the problem because bots are going to move to 85+ spots anyway. did you guys see that for anything in the game you need elcyum and enormous amount of them? i assume that immortal/requiem have a better chance to drop than r95/r99 so i'll assume all these spots that can drop immortal/requiem will be filled with bots for full items to crystallize them not for adena.
killing the old adena spots doesnt solve much of the problem because bots are going to move to 85+ spots anyway. did you guys see that for anything in the game you need elcyum and enormous amount of them? i assume that immortal/requiem have a better chance to drop than r95/r99 so i'll assume all these spots that can drop immortal/requiem will be filled with bots for full items to crystallize them not for adena.
I don't know what server you are playing on but on Chronos we have bots from Swamps/Harnaks to Hellfire. Its not just limited to the 85 and below areas.
I don't know what server you are playing on but on Chronos we have bots from Swamps/Harnaks to Hellfire. Its not just limited to the 85 and below areas.
chronos
you forgot gog/eg/pagan... etc
all have but not in a big number. since you get crystals from breaking these items, and blessed and giants scrolls, expect to be a lot more than its now.
chronos
you forgot gog/eg/pagan... etc
all have but not in a big number. since you get crystals from breaking these items, and blessed and giants scrolls, expect to be a lot more than its now.
Not a big number? lol. Have you seen Harnaks sometimes? every single room on every floor has had a bot group (or two) in it on some days. And GoG occasionally has a pretty big number of trains running through it as well.
Don't forget Isle of Souls as well, plenty all over that place as well.
I'm sure these new orc areas will take a bit before bots get the hang of things.. but anyone who thinks bots will never be there is just crazy.
dunno if any1 of you went to Raiders crossroads yet but mobs there tend to 1 hit the tank so i guess the Autobots there are easy to train with a stupid lvl1 char who has ww potions popped, ever seen bots able to kite? well ofc there are Dem few uber scrIptErs GOofing there who are known and dont need to be naMed but heck, sure the legits will be Able to make something happen theRe againsT thosE bots unless there is a way to inteLligently use the game Mechanics.
chronos
you forgot gog/eg/pagan... etc
all have but not in a big number. since you get crystals from breaking these items, and blessed and giants scrolls, expect to be a lot more than its now.
I didn't forget all those spots is said, Swamps(meaning lowest 85 solo area)/Harnaks(Lowest 85 Party Area) to (as in all the way to) Hellfire. I was kind of a all encompassing statement. I fully do expect bots to be in Orcs when it comes out, yes they 1 shot people in korea, not tanks though, although they do get 2-3 shotted, its not much better but still more than enough for the "slightly better than average" bot group to handle with a full 7 man with or without a OOP healer. I don't think most of the people in korea have as good of gear as some AE/EU players. They pve which doesn't take a WHOLE lot of good gear to do, +4 single SA and 150 weapon and you will do Okay in Pve. +4, 2 SA 300 and your Average, +16 Blessed Dual SA, 300 and your in Nova.
I didn't forget all those spots is said, Swamps(meaning lowest 85 solo area)/Harnaks(Lowest 85 Party Area) to (as in all the way to) Hellfire. I was kind of a all encompassing statement. I fully do expect bots to be in Orcs when it comes out, yes they 1 shot people in korea, not tanks though, although they do get 2-3 shotted, its not much better but still more than enough for the "slightly better than average" bot group to handle with a full 7 man with or without a OOP healer. I don't think most of the people in korea have as good of gear as some AE/EU players. They pve which doesn't take a WHOLE lot of good gear to do, +4 single SA and 150 weapon and you will do Okay in Pve. +4, 2 SA 300 and your Average, +16 Blessed Dual SA, 300 and your in Nova.
I think you are underestimating the Koreans gear..