Skill is useless for the ones who cant oe it.Healer now has to have mana up weap/talismans/mp potions or both healers in party must be SE.But,if all people go SE,where we will find the cardinals for sieges?
Not sure why you would need a mana up wep. Just gotta be a bit careful with mp now.
DD's need to realize they cant just spam skills and ask for mp.
Pace yourself.
Iss, realize you get mp back from just swinging, you dont need to just sit there and spam every debuff you have, most of the time it's enough to just do the 2 aoe ones. I still find it hard to believe an ISS runs out of mp. Yet some keep doing it.
Yes you loose around 700 to cast,but you get around 500 back,so it stopped work like a skill you can supply a little mana to party and yourself too.If 2 healers in party,not big problem,but if 1 and a lot of dmg or 2 nukers in party qq.
A WHOOPING 55% MP CONSUMPTION REDUCTION! (Exact math is different, but we're doing simple math in order to educate the masses) WOW! Do the math, you'll not spend all that mana, you also get a large amount back (the 700 power + 10 second regen).
To add more awesomeness, wear Orfen 3%, Anthy 3%, Noble Vesper 3%, 7+ power shirt 3%, Kiela Agathion 3%, Clarity Weapon ?, Clarity Masterwork Weapon ?, and so forth.
Not sure why you would need a mana up wep. Just gotta be a bit careful with mp now.
DD's need to realize they cant just spam skills and ask for mp.
Pace yourself.
Iss, realize you get mp back from just swinging, you dont need to just sit there and spam every debuff you have, most of the time it's enough to just do the 2 aoe ones. I still find it hard to believe an ISS runs out of mp. Yet some keep doing it.
The only way an ISS can really run out of mana is having to rebuff a lot (someone failing to noble or maybe just unlucky when they stood up from res) assist healing or spamming chaos symphony. Luckily my iss has a +6 TW heavy set +10 sonatas and +10 heal.
A WHOOPING 55% MP CONSUMPTION REDUCTION! (Exact math is different, but we're doing simple math in order to educate the masses) WOW! Do the math, you'll not spend all that mana, you also get a large amount back (the 700 power + 10 second regen).
To add more awesomeness, wear Orfen 3%, Anthy 3%, Noble Vesper 3%, 7+ power shirt 3%, Kiela Agathion 3%, Clarity Weapon ?, Clarity Masterwork Weapon ?, and so forth.
I think Healers also have at least one passive that reduces. The Awakened Divine Lore or whatever. Iss has one as well... I think it's something like 6%.
This is no different than Mana Share and it's massive MP cost. Most of that is eaten up by clarity effects.
Brilliant Recharge needed to be revamped that way because Summoners lost Mana Share and the Devs wanted to preserve the amount of mana that could be regenerated in a group situation. Tacking the lost mana onto the Aeore group recharge was a no brainer.
Yup. With stacked Clarity effects, the cost is very minimal. However, this change with MP should cause a better awareness on how to spend their MP on certain DDs who love to spam skills with abandon.
at start i thinked 'wtf with the mp cost?' then i realised that they changed the skill, beside with it i recharge for 1/5 +/- tank/othells mp, and this is awesome tbh, i dont need to spam recharge, but just need 1 skill in the case of tank.
enchanted this skill doesnt takes lot of mana, at +5 cost me 2920 mp, counting all kind of -% in consumation from buffs and w/e, the cost go really low.
while before this skill could be spammed at each reset of CD, now is just a better option to take it for ''emergency'', when tank/othell/tyrr or w/e class have 1/3 of mp.
i find worst the change in mp consumation of progressive heal tbh
The part that i dont understand about all this is that while diversification its made clear to you that EE healers are supposed to be the ones to shine at MP management and the SE healers supposed to be the combat type healers.
now the snag i see here is that SE healers have -10% mp consumption and a full MP restore skill on top of the other skills that EE's have. EE healers on the other hand get -5% skill cool down and thats it.
doesn't anyone agree it would make more sense to have full mental recharge and -10% MP consumption on the class that is supposed to be best at MP-management of the group?
Decisions are made without the approval of the community. is normal in official servers.
I, in particular, I doubt that we solve the problem
:@
What problem?
The part that i dont understand about all this is that while diversification its made clear to you that EE healers are supposed to be the ones to shine at MP management and the SE healers supposed to be the combat type healers.
now the snag i see here is that SE healers have -10% mp consumption and a full MP restore skill on top of the other skills that EE's have. EE healers on the other hand get -5% skill cool down and thats it.
doesn't anyone agree it would make more sense to have full mental recharge and -10% MP consumption on the class that is supposed to be best at MP-management of the group?
Yeah, I'd love to have the -reuse and -cost on my elder (don't care much on the single target rebirth). Anyways, the reuse is great for balance and proresive heals.
The part that i dont understand about all this is that while diversification its made clear to you that EE healers are supposed to be the ones to shine at MP management and the SE healers supposed to be the combat type healers.
now the snag i see here is that SE healers have -10% mp consumption and a full MP restore skill on top of the other skills that EE's have. EE healers on the other hand get -5% skill cool down and thats it.
doesn't anyone agree it would make more sense to have full mental recharge and -10% MP consumption on the class that is supposed to be best at MP-management of the group?
At 99 both are 10% though correct? Honestly imo the single target rebirth isn't that useful.
Yes you loose around 700 to cast,but you get around 500 back,so it stopped work like a skill you can supply a little mana to party and yourself too.If 2 healers in party,not big problem,but if 1 and a lot of dmg or 2 nukers in party qq.
As a healer main, my problem isnt with the Feoh's...its the dang Tyrr's and Othello's who have a friggin "I AM GOD" complex and spam every skill they have in 30 secs...when they do this...i dont bother recharging them...this is also the reason i dont like random grps ( i am breaking the clannie's slowly lol )
At 99 both are 10% though correct? Honestly imo the single target rebirth isn't that useful.
no, its a SE healer specific passive skill.
As a healer main, my problem isnt with the Feoh's...its the dang Tyrr's and Othello's who have a friggin "I AM GOD" complex and spam every skill they have in 30 secs...when they do this...i dont bother recharging them...this is also the reason i dont like random grps ( i am breaking the clannie's slowly lol )
yes, the rogues that try to land all skills on a raid or instance boss... sigh
... and the tyrrs that push out 5k MP in 30 seconds thinking its a huge difference while a group whacks the same boss for 5 minutes; i hear ya and been there. my biggest problem is my own main class, the tanks during AOE. single target np, but when focus shield up and in AOE and with the now greatly reduced re-use timer on 'king of beasts' but raised mp to over 1k, they now take a lot more MP than feohs, but you cant complain because its put to really good use (adds 60k patk to frontal AND close range AOE attack!!). now the tank i can with SE-healer fully recharge every 5min and rebirth the full group (so if i play it right, he gets full mp every 3 minutes). i am sorry for disagreeing with the above peeps, but i think its a very significant skill and would have really expected the "recharge specialist" to have this skill.
to be honest, i wonder what Juji and the developers teams think about this....
No issue with MP cost of the group recharge. There is tons of clarity in game (Buffs and Passive Skills) and you get the recharge as well. In the end it's not that huge of a deal, especially given the cooldown. It's not like you're spamming it. Wynns had a high MP cost on Mana Sharing pre-Lindvior and that never bothered them, even those that barely casted Mark of Void in PvE.
The issue is classes that skill spam when they shouldn't be skill spamming. It's why my healer is retired. I'm tired of getting into arguments with randoms who think they are already pr0 players because they ebayed some twilight and an apoc weapon...
Feoh MP issues in groups largely disappeared once they reduced the cooldown on Ultimate Body to Mind. That hasn't been an issue for several months, now.
yes, the rogues that try to land all skills on a raid or instance boss... sigh
... and the tyrrs that push out 5k MP in 30 seconds thinking its a huge difference while a group whacks the same boss for 5 minutes; i hear ya and been there. my biggest problem is my own main class, the tanks during AOE. single target np, but when focus shield up and in AOE and with the now greatly reduced re-use timer on 'king of beasts' but raised mp to over 1k, they now take a lot more MP than feohs, but you cant complain because its put to really good use (adds 60k patk to frontal AND close range AOE attack!!). now the tank i can with SE-healer fully recharge every 5min and rebirth the full group (so if i play it right, he gets full mp every 3 minutes). i am sorry for disagreeing with the above peeps, but i think its a very significant skill and would have really expected the "recharge specialist" to have this skill.
to be honest, i wonder what Juji and the developers teams think about this....
Anyways on second thought I do see one good use for the single target rebirth. 99 ISS in orcland using chaos symphony often to double dps :)
So i have just hit 91 on my healer, went to test this skill out, dont see what all the fuss is, full lvl 2 iss buffs, + tank decrease skill buff, after i cast it and it gave me MP back, it cost me about 1k in total, + then i also gained some MP back, so this skill once buffed costs nothing really.
i think some are forgetting an important fact here: that if you are under the minimum cost, you cant cast it in the first place. meaning if the skill needs 4k to cast you will not be able to cast it with 3990mp left regardless if you recover 1k or 3k right after. that is significant.
also when on healer i used to spam this skill, someone said that healers didnt, but thats wrong.
also about manashare on summoners: yes many wynn used this skill a lot, if you didnt then thats your problem. however now it restores the summons HP instead of the groups MP anyways, so forget about it.
@Agent, EE would be speciallists in skill refresh, then SE can shine on the Mana Pool management, and I'm glad for this. Now I barely touch on rebirth, if not in any particular raid like Istina/Octavis or Open-Field. Brilliant Recharge + Crystal Reg are enough to keep the whole party on top of mp, with all DD's using their max skills. Well, unless any f/cking tyrr start spammin Last Attack like a (noob) boss.
The Mind Recharge (rebirth single target) is ubber useful, specially when you are in party with Hiero Iss: he is free to spam BR+CN, while you can provide him with full mana between 1 rebirth and another.
At start I was afraid about turning back to the SE roots, but now I'm very happy with the result. The diff between the healers are minimals, and the - cd % from EE (the only one on the same level to be compared to SE, sorry for cardinals, but the Div Prayer sucks) isnt that factor.
I think yesterday I saw a Tyrr spamming Last Attack in my party... I was amazed at how fast his MP were depleted... And right after I used Rebirth. :| I was running out of MP rather quickly to keep the party's mana up...
Well, in all fairness, if they are spamming last attack on a boss, atleast its dead soon, it can only be used once you are below 20% hp on the mob (unless an oe option raises that, but didnt look like that option was very good, at first hand).
Tyrrs have low mp to begin with, and are easy to recharge. The only tyrr I dont recharge is the one that thinks they need to use every skill in any situation. If the party is trying to round up mobs to aoe them, you really should never use any knockback skill, at all. Same goes for archers spamming aoe attacks on single target, or using Recoil shot on a raid.
So far though, I have had no bad experience with Brilliant recharge or its mp cost.
@Agent, EE would be speciallists in skill refresh, then SE can shine on the Mana Pool management, and I'm glad for this. Now I barely touch on rebirth, if not in any particular raid like Istina/Octavis or Open-Field. Brilliant Recharge + Crystal Reg are enough to keep the whole party on top of mp, with all DD's using their max skills. Well, unless any f/cking tyrr start spammin Last Attack like a (noob) boss.
The Mind Recharge (rebirth single target) is ubber useful, specially when you are in party with Hiero Iss: he is free to spam BR+CN, while you can provide him with full mana between 1 rebirth and another.
At start I was afraid about turning back to the SE roots, but now I'm very happy with the result. The diff between the healers are minimals, and the - cd % from EE (the only one on the same level to be compared to SE, sorry for cardinals, but the Div Prayer sucks) isnt that factor.
the problem you dont see is that EE is supposed to SPECIALIZED in recharge/MP/HP management and SE supposed to be the offensive healer with 10% matk gain. in exchange EE gets a -5% reuse to better heal/recharge the party. the only real additional recharge skill goes to the SE: mental recharge. so the SE not only gets the 10% matk gain but also is better at mp management.
There's nothing wrong with Brilliant Recharge. I'm not sure why people are still crying about it. Yes, the cost is high. It's affected by Clarity Passives and Buffs and you get all the effects (so you recover about 1000-1100 or so of the post-clarity cost). Healers have large mana pools. Double SA Mana Up if you need more.
the problem you dont see is that EE is supposed to SPECIALIZED in recharge/MP/HP management and SE supposed to be the offensive healer with 10% matk gain. in exchange EE gets a -5% reuse to better heal/recharge the party. the only real additional recharge skill goes to the SE: mental recharge. so the SE not only gets the 10% matk gain but also is better at mp management.
You got it wrong. EE has quicker reuse.
SE's Superior Mastery: M. Atk. +10%. M. Skill MP Consumption -10%
In addition to that, they also get Mass Mana Gain and
Mental Recharge: Restores target's MP.
The SE is clearly better at recharging than the EE.
The EE is a bit faster at it due to having a lower reuse, but the SE is far more efficient at it. Not only do their recharges cost 10% less than the EEs, but they have a single target MP Restore on a 10 minute timer (independent of rebirth) in addition to every Recharge Skill/Buff the EE has (and Rebirth, of course).
In any case, the EEs reuse is more important for their heals than their recharge. All their heals have 10% less reuse and for PvP the reuse matters more than the consumption cause it allows the healer to heal a higher DPS than with the lower reuse.
That is if we believe end-game to be PvP.
EE = Better Healer
SE = Better Recharger
For Heals: Cardinal > EE > SE
For Recharging: SE >> EE > Cardinal
If you level any DD in an area that doesn't drop herbs, SE is the best boxed Aeore :-) Full Mana every five minutes. Even in lieu of mana herb drops, some classes may never have to cast anything other than Rebirth and the Mana Restore (one every 5 minutes alternating).
Who says they are supposed to be specialized in that?
You?
Sry, you are not the developer.
the pre-patch notes and hardin says so at the class diversification. i was only quoting and not imposing as a developer.
SE's Superior Mastery: M. Atk. +10%. M. Skill MP Consumption -10%
In addition to that, they also get Mass Mana Gain and
Mental Recharge: Restores target's MP.
The SE is clearly better at recharging than the EE.
no kidding! really?!?!??
wow, whats wrong with you? i have been saying that all along!
now for you again fresh copied from the patch notes:
Aeore Eva's Saint Skills
Superior Quick Recovery (Passive) - Skill cooldown -5%.
Mass Mana Gain (Active) - For 30 minutes, party members' MP heal amount +33.
Aeore Shillien Saint Skills
Superior Wizard Combat (Passive) - M. Atk. +10%. M. Skill MP Consumption -10%.
Mass Mana Gain (Active) - For 30 minutes, party members' MP heal amount +33.
Mental Recharge (Active) - Restores target's MP.
now again, according to the pre patch notes and to the infos given from hardin at the class diversification:
cardi = best party/clan healer
EE = best MP management and strong healer with quick reuse
SE = best PVP healer with superior matk
again: i dont get why the SE gets the10% matk combined with the only mental recharge skill and additional clarity. the EE on the other hand only gets the -5% reuse. i'd change -5% reuse for ++matk and -- mp consumption all day.
for the exact same reason our healer was "diversified" as SE instead of EE. the point i am trying to make is that according to all the facts from the pre-notes, hardins, guide, etc it looks to me like the EE should have gotten passive clarity (clarity is an original EE only skill!) combined with mental recharge and -5% CD. while the SE should have gotten the +10% matk (adds up to 20% at 99 i believe).
The ways how you guys argued what an EE, SE, and Cardi is suppose to be as healer or how their are before pre-awaken patches and their differences is just laughable. Kind of show how you guys don't really know much about these healer classes.
Before these awaken classes:
Cardi = best fit for clan/party healing (group major heal and balance) and buffs that increase party's HP like body of avatar (BOA)
EE = single target healer and more focused on unique defensive buffs and recharger
SE= single target healer ( more focus on damage base heal like blessed the blood) and offensive type buffs/debuff (empower/stigma)
But with promander..much of these healers become similar..not much difference except their base stats...
Now with these new diversified classes....these new skills just help to return them back to their original states..
cardi = a balance stats overall healer still focusing on clan and heal power (prayer)
EE= with their already high WIT and skill CD, makes them the best class for single target heal type...possible now that radiant heal can be as good as panic heal and it's less MP cost (maybe these new EE aeore are not use to going back to this heal style as radiant was rarely use by any healer)
SE=boosted MATK (to compensate for their empower skill thought that was suppose to be a party buff and as if their high INT was not already a big boost of matk compare to other healers) and they still retain their role as a recharger
The question still remains as to why EE don't have the -MP consumption. A possible answer is that this new build for SE makes them more directed as a nuker/healer type. The -MP consumption was prolly not to help with more healing ability but maybe for the nuking skills. This helps SE able to last longer as a nuker when solo kill, aoe, or even assist in damage on pvp. Keep in mind that the idea of SE is to partially be an offensive type healer. Take note that matk boost and -mp consumption falls under the name Superior Wizard COMBAT
In full party play, MP is never really a problem in both pve and pvp, there's so much skills and MP management of the whole party to make healer's MP last
@Agent0range: you made me remember of those nukers back in the old days when they would happily pick an EE rather than a SE (along with its emp3, essential for any nuker!!) just 'cause EE could cast recharge faster - what would mean EE --> natural recharger.
SE is still the most offensive healer among all 3, being the one capable of kill another healer in Oly. And about offensiveness, whats more offensive than all your partners with full mana all the time, since now constant mana = constant dmg?
Attemp to what I've said in my previous post: SE now figures as the pure best PvE healer, while EE takes the most suited to PvP, since no one will care about mana pools during pvp instead of reuse of important skills (like purges, heals etc).
Looking back, SE is known as having a troubled past of power and nerfs twisted at prior of ppl desires. Dont join the moar boat, let us have this bliss at least.
@Agent0range: you made me remember of those nukers back in the old days when they would happily pick an EE rather than a SE (along with its emp3, essential for any nuker!!) just 'cause EE could cast recharge faster - what would mean EE --> natural recharger.
SE is still the most offensive healer among all 3, being the one capable of kill another healer in Oly. And about offensiveness, whats more offensive than all your partners with full mana all the time, since now constant mana = constant dmg?
while you are talking about the "good old times" dont forget that EE had clarity and empower was easily replaced with a scroll/bottl/pet/pony/oop buff while the EE had better healing capabilities (here compared to SE only), higher cast speed, wit, men and had some other nice buffs like evas blessings (full restore CP/HP/MP), trance, etc
also before several nerfs they where even able to recharge themselfs (OE'd clarity, recharge and passives) but also 2 EE's where able to fully recharge each other within a minute or less.
SE on the other hand had almost nothing until the update where the prophecies where introduced and wind seemed to be the best for melee and polers together with fire. then again water (from EE) was focused (almost exclusive built) for nukers.
to what I've said in my previous post: SE now figures as the pure best PvE healer, while EE takes the most suited to PvP, since no one will care about mana pools during pvp instead of reuse of important skills (like purges, heals etc).
maybe i am misinterpreting of what you are saying but i am disagreeing with you. SE to me now appears the best PVE healer, right i give you that. however, its also the best solo PVP healer/nuker/oly. EE's are done, 5% reuse is kinda pathetic compared to up to +20% damage with the same cast speed. most suited for PVP is the cardi with - reuse, increased healing power and adds in mass healing. mana is super important, i have been in so many PVP battles where one party was ahead in the beginning and almost won and then simply ran out of MP and as last resort PR's.
IMHO mp management will give you more advantage in the long run, its not always about "hit and run" but there is also sieges, raids, etc
like once i was watching my GF healing a party, everything was going great during the raid until some dorf decided that he needs to craft shots and a nuker decided to use his mp shield skill. within like 20 seconds 2 where on 0 mp, rebirth was only half way back and the tanks and rest of groups mp somewhere at 20-50%. it took her a while but she recovered them. why? because she chose to awaken as SE instead of EE (as she used to be for the past 8 years).
I just read the last page only and am glad it was only the last page because reading this page alone already made me cringe several times.
Ok so first off, the posters comparing the healers by means of 2nd and 3rd class buffs or mentioning 2nd and 3rd class skills in anyway as a valid argument for anything here. Get out, leave healers alone, and go play DDs.
Now to the rest of you.
First off, stop comparing the level 85 variants of the skills. You're obviously underplaying them by doing so and creating false comparisons in your head.
Compare the level 99 versions only because anything below that doesn't matter for PvP or olympiad and at this stage of the game, MP shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
So first off, Cardinal is deemed the best healer. Not quite. It has the most healing tools to play with, but the extras (clan-wide full hp/cp restore and debuff cleanse), are just that. Some extra once in a while, siege oriented skills that could possibly save lives or just do a little boost. Prayer is overly praised. It is unfortunately not a 15% increase in heals and is definitely not as good as having -10% reuse (http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=902&hilit=prayer&start=180) considering the most important skills a healer has for both PvP and PvE are not value based heals. However, for PvP having a cardinal and an ES together works best.
Eva's saint is being underrated. Reuse is pretty critical for a healer. So critical that many healers would rather have wizard's harmony for the reuse despite knowing that archers and daggers can kill them easily if left open for even a second too low with that drastic decrease in p.def. The mana gain buff is not even worth mentioning.
Shillien's saint is being overrated. Ok first off, you all should know this by now, +20% M.attk =/= +20% damage. 20% M.attk is a 9.55% increase in damage. Having more damage as a healer is pointless to your group and the healing increase gained from m.attk is ignorable. For olympiad, great. You hit a little harder and the ES hits you more often than you hit hit harder. Great olympiad passive, really great. :rolleyes: The mana gain buff, again not worth mentioning. The full mana restore buff is great for the noobs in the game that still can't manage their mana and isn't in a clan with at least divine squad level 2. It is also great for that feoh wizard who hit arcane barrier in the middle of mass pvp and hit the floor and wiped his MP clean. You can res him up, fully restore his MP and then ban him/her from your PvP group forever. Other than that, not that important of a skill for players who matter.
Anyway continue your discussion about brilliant recharge costing too much MP; a great thread brought up by a guy who didn't read the patch notes nor notice the difference in his own skill description as to why it costs more MP in the first place. A conversation worthy of scholars.
I just read the last page only and am glad it was only the last page because reading this page alone already made me cringe several times.
Ok so first off, the posters comparing the healers by means of 2nd and 3rd class buffs or mentioning 2nd and 3rd class skills in anyway as a valid argument for anything here. Get out, leave healers alone, and go play DDs.
Now to the rest of you.
First off, stop comparing the level 85 variants of the skills. You're obviously underplaying them by doing so and creating false comparisons in your head.
Compare the level 99 versions only because anything below that doesn't matter for PvP or olympiad and at this stage of the game, MP shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
So first off, Cardinal is deemed the best healer. Not quite. It has the most healing tools to play with, but the extras (clan-wide full hp/cp restore and debuff cleanse), are just that. Some extra once in a while, siege oriented skills that could possibly save lives or just do a little boost. Prayer is overly praised. It is unfortunately not a 15% increase in heals and is definitely not as good as having -10% reuse (http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=902&hilit=prayer&start=180) considering the most important skills a healer has for both PvP and PvE are not value based heals. However, for PvP having a cardinal and an ES together works best.
Eva's saint is being underrated. Reuse is pretty critical for a healer. So critical that many healers would rather have wizard's harmony for the reuse despite knowing that archers and daggers can kill them easily if left open for even a second too low with that drastic decrease in p.def. The mana gain buff is not even worth mentioning.
Shillien's saint is being overrated. Ok first off, you all should know this by now, +20% M.attk =/= +20% damage. 20% M.attk is a 9.55% increase in damage. Having more damage as a healer is pointless to your group and the healing increase gained from m.attk is ignorable. For olympiad, great. You hit a little harder and the ES hits you more often than you hit hit harder. Great olympiad passive, really great. :rolleyes: The mana gain buff, again not worth mentioning. The full mana restore buff is great for the noobs in the game that still can't manage their mana and isn't in a clan with at least divine squad level 2. It is also great for that feoh wizard who hit arcane barrier in the middle of mass pvp and hit the floor and wiped his MP clean. You can res him up, fully restore his MP and then ban him/her from your PvP group forever. Other than that, not that important of a skill for players who matter.
Anyway continue your discussion about brilliant recharge costing too much MP; a great thread brought up by a guy who didn't read the patch notes nor notice the difference in his own skill description as to why it costs more MP in the first place. A conversation worthy of scholars.
yes you would be doing good in reading the thread first before you start posting in it LOL:D
I just read the last page only and am glad it was only the last page because reading this page alone already made me cringe several times.
Ok so first off, the posters comparing the healers by means of 2nd and 3rd class buffs or mentioning 2nd and 3rd class skills in anyway as a valid argument for anything here. Get out, leave healers alone, and go play DDs.
Now to the rest of you.
First off, stop comparing the level 85 variants of the skills. You're obviously underplaying them by doing so and creating false comparisons in your head.
Compare the level 99 versions only because anything below that doesn't matter for PvP or olympiad and at this stage of the game, MP shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
So first off, Cardinal is deemed the best healer. Not quite. It has the most healing tools to play with, but the extras (clan-wide full hp/cp restore and debuff cleanse), are just that. Some extra once in a while, siege oriented skills that could possibly save lives or just do a little boost. Prayer is overly praised. It is unfortunately not a 15% increase in heals and is definitely not as good as having -10% reuse (http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=902&hilit=prayer&start=180) considering the most important skills a healer has for both PvP and PvE are not value based heals. However, for PvP having a cardinal and an ES together works best.
Eva's saint is being underrated. Reuse is pretty critical for a healer. So critical that many healers would rather have wizard's harmony for the reuse despite knowing that archers and daggers can kill them easily if left open for even a second too low with that drastic decrease in p.def. The mana gain buff is not even worth mentioning.
Shillien's saint is being overrated. Ok first off, you all should know this by now, +20% M.attk =/= +20% damage. 20% M.attk is a 9.55% increase in damage. Having more damage as a healer is pointless to your group and the healing increase gained from m.attk is ignorable. For olympiad, great. You hit a little harder and the ES hits you more often than you hit hit harder. Great olympiad passive, really great. :rolleyes: The mana gain buff, again not worth mentioning. The full mana restore buff is great for the noobs in the game that still can't manage their mana and isn't in a clan with at least divine squad level 2. It is also great for that feoh wizard who hit arcane barrier in the middle of mass pvp and hit the floor and wiped his MP clean. You can res him up, fully restore his MP and then ban him/her from your PvP group forever. Other than that, not that important of a skill for players who matter.
Anyway continue your discussion about brilliant recharge costing too much MP; a great thread brought up by a guy who didn't read the patch notes nor notice the difference in his own skill description as to why it costs more MP in the first place. A conversation worthy of scholars.
+1 on everything, basically what I was saying since PTS ^^
while you are talking about the "good old times" dont forget that EE had clarity and empower was easily replaced with a scroll/bottl/pet/pony/oop buff while the EE had better healing capabilities (here compared to SE only), higher cast speed, wit, men and had some other nice buffs like evas blessings (full restore CP/HP/MP), trance, etc
also before several nerfs they where even able to recharge themselfs (OE'd clarity, recharge and passives) but also 2 EE's where able to fully recharge each other within a minute or less.
SE on the other hand had almost nothing until the update where the prophecies where introduced and wind seemed to be the best for melee and polers together with fire. then again water (from EE) was focused (almost exclusive built) for nukers.
maybe i am misinterpreting of what you are saying but i am disagreeing with you. SE to me now appears the best PVE healer, right i give you that. however, its also the best solo PVP healer/nuker/oly. EE's are done, 5% reuse is kinda pathetic compared to up to +20% damage with the same cast speed. most suited for PVP is the cardi with - reuse, increased healing power and adds in mass healing. mana is super important, i have been in so many PVP battles where one party was ahead in the beginning and almost won and then simply ran out of MP and as last resort PR's.
IMHO mp management will give you more advantage in the long run, its not always about "hit and run" but there is also sieges, raids, etc
like once i was watching my GF healing a party, everything was going great during the raid until some dorf decided that he needs to craft shots and a nuker decided to use his mp shield skill. within like 20 seconds 2 where on 0 mp, rebirth was only half way back and the tanks and rest of groups mp somewhere at 20-50%. it took her a while but she recovered them. why? because she chose to awaken as SE instead of EE (as she used to be for the past 8 years).
you are wrong.
At level 85, SE get 10% MATK and 10% clarity
at level 85, EE get -5% skill reuse
yes SE do get 20% at 99, but you failed to correct that EEs go up to -10% reuse at 99.
so get your facts straight first.
Reuse for brilliant purge is a huge factor to pvp atm since targets only really die when theyre vulnerable to debuffs. Damage dealer classes got a boost but if you can play healer efficiently with your defensive skills, EE is still the best PVP healer.
I'm not going to read pages upon pages of nonsense.
you have the right idea in your previous posts imo. Its only natural people that dont play a healer class like AgentOrange or whatever will just talk like he does know but really should just stick to his own class if he even knows that much. Same reason why I only speak about healer class and nothing else :D
@Yamino, I would fully agree with your thoughts and statements if there's not that ressalve of
Compare the level 99 versions only because anything below that doesn't matter for PvP or olympiad and at this stage of the game, MP shouldn't be an issue for anyone
since not everyone (me included, ofc) arent yet level caped and, if your statement in your signature is valid, every attempt to educate someone should start from the basis - what clearly couldnt be reached if we only talk about end game here. Each level in game could be compared with a stage, and knowing how to manage in a good mode in each one of them - keeping in mind all their pros and cons - is what makes the "newbies" expert with their choosen class.
anyway, I play SE (and would play whenever they ask us to choose) because I like - note, I like the class, not the archetype itself, and I'd say I'm very happy with it, even with too many odds.
@Yamino, I would fully agree with your thoughts and statements if there's not that ressalve of
since not everyone (me included, ofc) arent yet level caped and, if your statement in your signature is valid, every attempt to educate someone should start from the basis - what clearly couldnt be reached if we only talk about end game here. Each level in game could be compared with a stage, and knowing how to manage in a good mode in each one of them - keeping in mind all their pros and cons - is what makes the "newbies" expert with their choosen class.
anyway, I play SE (and would play whenever they ask us to choose) because I like - note, I like the class, not the archetype itself, and I'd say I'm very happy with it, even with too many odds.
Its not really different. Unless you're healing by only using chain heal and are just spamming it constantly regardless of if people need healing or not despite your or their level, you won't run out of MP in 10 minutes. Even your a typical casual player in a no name clan can go through continuous PvE without needing to rebirth ever. Top that off with decent clan skills and equipment and most healers don't even really need to do anything beyond summoning a tree of life.
And I try to never rebirth. By doing so, it will always be ready in case there is pvp. In which case it MIGHT be needed.
Not sure why ppl like the tree so much, it doesnt heal when u want to, it heals when it wants to. Which means I will heal ppl anyway, since I wont let them die due to a lazy tree.
Most PUG groups are getting the short end when it comes to healer, they think that if they get to 3/4 mana they need more mana, so instead of healing people, they start auto emo mode, super fail on their part btw QQ!!!
In most cases of PvE, the tree is all you need. Unless your group is beyond weak.