Doesn't any tank feel like they lose there spot for pve party? a tyrr with the same gear can do the tank job already beside they got more attack power why would they need a tank?
There are still some things u need tank for. Tanks are unaffected by armor destruction, Tyrr is not. A tyrr with lvl 6 armor destruction tanks about as good as an elpy.
people go seed of hellfire and pull 1 mob at the time just pull whole freaking room now what tyrr is going to stay alive? i doubt any tyrr will stay alive..
1 by 1 any class can tank a mob thats problem nowadays people play so super safe make the healers work tank tons of mobs make other classes AoE
dont be silly with your 1 by 1 crap then yes tank is not needed
Doesn't any tank feel like they lose there spot for pve party? a tyrr with the same gear can do the tank job already beside they got more attack power why would they need a tank?
Yes but you are a happy person that doesnt play with a boring Tyrr like I do...
There are still some things u need tank for. Tanks are unaffected by armor destruction, Tyrr is not. A tyrr with lvl 6 armor destruction tanks about as good as an elpy.
Plus Party Solidarity buff... Or has it become a nonfactor buff now?
Doesn't any tank feel like they lose there spot for pve party? a tyrr with the same gear can do the tank job already beside they got more attack power why would they need a tank?
I always see people looking for tanks in every party.
Sadly its always lvl 90+ tanks that everyone is looking for since there are rarely anyone below lvl 90's anymore :(
I always see people looking for tanks in every party.
Sadly its always lvl 90+ tanks that everyone is looking for since there are rarely anyone below lvl 90's anymore :(
I think he is talking about kartia/spezion parties especially. I saw myself few times when we got tank - someone said: "omg wtf lol who the hell need tank , take DD, more dps" :o
Plus Party Solidarity buff... Or has it become a nonfactor buff now?
Some ppl do not care about it, they need "more dps" from 5th DD as they said
Doesn't any tank feel like they lose there spot for pve party? a tyrr with the same gear can do the tank job already beside they got more attack power why would they need a tank?
yes .. as the game made a rollback, the age of tanking has ended in most cases. It feels like pre-god, in many spots a tyrr has better chances now to keep the aggro on himself than a tank.
Tank still are good for: mass pvp, massive AoE in areas as GF/SoH/SoA, instances like AoS, raids like Istina/Octavis, some ***ing screwer open field raids, like Gigant Golem/Harp etc.
for everything else, a good geared and skilled tyrr does the trick for the interchange.
truth. the tank that thinks he is a DD, its summarily excluded from my "possible tanks to get into my party" list.
and @Waffla, I feel that major part of ppl are too afraid to make parties as party leaders, and dunno why. Serious, in Bartz, while you r walking for Aden, you can read a dozen of DD shouting for party, tanks, isses and even healers, all looking for the same quest party, or instance, but no one of them has the balls to start the party themselves or create a room in partymatching. I've had been in parties where ppl were afraid even to kick someone that was AFK, or had showed himself as a complete noob!!
That awkward moment when my tank can deliver more damage than 50% of tyrrs. :)
If you have ++++ red blessed weapon, +15 str, patck pendant and all sources to increase dps, plus some levels higher, maybe. If not, dont be delusional. Its the same telling an healer can outdps a feoh in PvE aspect. Note I'm not saying tank can't kill anything at all, but not in the same rate/efficiency than any DD. period.
Afterall, Vanguard is meant to be used only in solo grind. Then if I notice any tank is using it prententiously during party play, well, its like he wont be receiving recharges unless during Rebirth time.
Then, as tank, feel free to play the beater when you are assured everything is under your control. If not, you r doing it wrong, dude. :cool:
If you have ++++ red blessed weapon, +15 str, patck pendant and all sources to increase dps, plus some levels higher, maybe. If not, dont be delusional. Its the same telling an healer can outdps a feoh in PvE aspect. Note I'm not saying tank can't kill anything at all, but not in the same rate/efficiency than any DD. period.
No, I don't have that gear. I simply do most stuff with a very specific S80 set. :P
Afterall, Vanguard is meant to be used only in solo grind. Then if I notice any tank is using it prententiously during party play, well, its like he wont be receiving recharges unless during Rebirth time.
I have vanguard perma up in PVE mode.. party or solo.. and besides healer, I'm usually the last to have MP problems.
Always keeping Vanguard on, no problems usually. I even get asked to turn it on for "more dps" for those times I forget. I may require a few recharges, but things go slightly faster: +50% damage means 15k instead of 10k, which may or may not be good enough. I only toggle it off in those cases where party's dps justifies my not using Vanguard (inflicting damage also helps to hold aggro but if mobs die in a few seconds, then who cares XD)
ykara. only dds who play to be a Tank like dd are hitting less than a Tank.
even if a Tank has the best gear he could possible get. a DD with +15 str dyes will just overcome Tanks dmg output.
my lv88 Tyrr w/+15 str kills pink mobs faster than my 98 Tank with +15 str >_>
most Tyrrs went +15 Con now due to the super Hp Max limitness. thats why they arent hitting so hard. you can tell 100% the difference between +15 con tyrr and +15 str Tyrr.
I doubt Tanks can deal more dmg than archer/nuker/othels.
example, i may not be the best case here but: my highest dmg upon a Monster in GF was 85k that was with skill power dualsub proced and skillcrit upon skilluse. yet an Yul does 120k period with skills. not to imagine to add skill power buff and skillcrit that would be like about 300k dmg or smth like that.
you could ask Redmen to tell you how much dmg he does average skill upon GF mobs for a example :P
The real proble is the agression power nerf. It doesn't matter if you are a mighty tank, you will be quite useless if you cannot keep a boss hitting you.
For pve with mobs it's a must to have a tank into the party but in boss instances... Not indeed. You can see parties with powerful yuls and feohs finishing kartia instances very fast with no tank. Now keep the agro in a boss is almost impossible even if you pull/hit/agro before any DD hit first.
Hunting raidbosses outside it's even more impossible. 80% of the battle time with the raid boss will be run and run. I really don't know why they nerfed the agro power on pve!
The real proble is the agression power nerf. It doesn't matter if you are a mighty tank, you will be quite useless if you cannot keep a boss hitting you.
For pve with mobs it's a must to have a tank into the party but in boss instances... Not indeed. You can see parties with powerful yuls and feohs finishing kartia instances very fast with no tank. Now keep the agro in a boss is almost impossible even if you pull/hit/agro before any DD hit first.
Hunting raidbosses outside it's even more impossible. 80% of the battle time with the raid boss will be run and run. I really don't know why they nerfed the agro power on pve!
'cause when ncsoft "fix" things , or too OP or too weak , they increased cost of "shadow fake death" , i can't stay in fake death for 15 seconds that i will end about 3k+ mana points (in oly is the best way to avoid a "one-hit kill" from othells coming out from Hide) , same for iss enchanters heal , beside i guess the one i know don't have any clue about how to fix his iss, in olys 5 skills and they're out of mana.
And as far as i remember (im dual class tank) even before lindvior my aggression was not working on raid , 1 aggro > raid hit me 1 second > move away for 5 seconds (single-target aggression delay) , in most of the cases he was casting a skill , so not even that 1 second of aggro xD
The real proble is the agression power nerf. It doesn't matter if you are a mighty tank, you will be quite useless if you cannot keep a boss hitting you.
For pve with mobs it's a must to have a tank into the party but in boss instances... Not indeed. You can see parties with powerful yuls and feohs finishing kartia instances very fast with no tank. Now keep the agro in a boss is almost impossible even if you pull/hit/agro before any DD hit first.
Hunting raidbosses outside it's even more impossible. 80% of the battle time with the raid boss will be run and run. I really don't know why they nerfed the agro power on pve!
because they trying to balance stats but they don't want to implement different formulas for pvp and pve.
All ncsoft is doing adjusting power for particular classes skills but they do not implement this power to particular mode in this case we have pvp and pve.
i should be something like this :
and issnotnpc skill(agro) power == 1000 , and targetable and ispayer skill(agro) power == 500
easy :D
idk what ikara is smoking but there is no way you out dd a tyrr as tank, look at all the buffs and skills they have. its like saying, look at my iss how strong i made it, look at my str and patk, yet its hitting 10 times less than a tyrr... without using rage on tyrr. when you hit mobs around your lvl for more than 200k-250k then you can say your tank hit more than tyrr.
Always keeping Vanguard on, no problems usually. I even get asked to turn it on for "more dps" for those times I forget. I may require a few recharges, but things go slightly faster: +50% damage means 15k instead of 10k, which may or may not be good enough. I only toggle it off in those cases where party's dps justifies my not using Vanguard (inflicting damage also helps to hold aggro but if mobs die in a few seconds, then who cares XD)
Explain to me how someone notices your tank is doing less dmg and tells you to toggle on...
idk what ikara is smoking but there is no way you out dd a tyrr as tank, look at all the buffs and skills they have. its like saying, look at my iss how strong i made it, look at my str and patk, yet its hitting 10 times less than a tyrr... without using rage on tyrr. when you hit mobs around your lvl for more than 200k-250k then you can say your tank hit more than tyrr.
try 350+k in pagans chapel rooms when I was soloing there but then again am not a typical tank and my gear/set up ain't typical either so yeah in general speaking tanks will not out dps a classic DD class..
still any dps that's added to the party is nice to have, I recall at start GoD that there were many tanks with just a C grade HP weapon and only spammed aoe hate.. now those folks gave tanks a really bad name imo..
still any dps that's added to the party is nice to have, I recall at start GoD that there were many tanks with just a C grade HP weapon and only spammed aoe hate.. now those folks gave tanks a really bad name imo..
I can name a few.. :P
You should borrow me your weapon, when you go on holidays .. :D
Take a tanker with brain that know how manage the auras for good(harmony too), use R/ R95/ R99 weapon (and no S grade because reflect passive is easy to get), use focus shield and u can also put him with warrior + true vanguard and tank anything. I see topics about replace tankers for tyrrs in pve... just bull**** (no offense).
My dual class at lvl 95 (lvl 95...) can run in lol defensive setup or just have 6888 p.atk when I want (7k + if I put rage aura) + jewels for 30% critical dmg, debuffs with cube, agro, soli buff... and this make all the difference for pve:
True Vanguard: Increased damage to monsters by 50%, increased MP consumption for physical skills by 30%.
So stop to compare tyrrs with sigels... or at least open ur eyes. If u wanna replace a sigel with a tyrr in any instance / pve / pvp I wish u good luck.
So stop to compare tyrrs with sigels... or at least open ur eyes. If u wanna replace a sigel with a tyrr in any instance / pve / pvp I wish u good luck.
I wanna holla' to mossi (93 when we did fortuna) and HK (95 when we did Spicula). Those 2 tyrrs can tank Fortuna and Spicula w/o a problem.
And I've partied with a R95 tanks and failed cuz of their incompetence.
Anyways a tank is a toon with aggro skill, not cuz' of hp/cp. No, tyrr DN is not a tank.
If u wanna replace a sigel with a tyrr in any instance / pve / pvp I wish u good luck.
this tread is about pve, besides that all daily intances are quite easy now, none of them require a tank.
teredor - no problem at all when doing it with a tyrr
Soa - maybe pulling less mobs .. but in general no problem
fortuna - fast and easy with tyrr, even faster when you can get a DN
spezion - same
spicula and quest - no tank needed
k85-k95 - we dont realy have to talk about it .. or?
eg - easy with a DN or a tyrr with provoke, but ofc less mobs pulling
espez - easier when a tyrr does the tanking
baylor - easier when a tyrr does the tanking
hf - np with a tyrr, but probably a bit faster with tank
the situation about Tanks in Lindvior is bad when you compare it with GoD - even more for Tanks that choose a defensiv setup .. whats the point having a Tank who could take alot of hits when the aggro is on the Tyrr or some1 else most of the time :)
well defensive set up tanks will be fine/more welcome I guess in parties that xp at crossroads etc. aka the new 99 areas, tyr's are not really able to tank that kind damage :P
honestly, i just see ppl taking tyrrs as tanks when they can't find tanks... a tyrr can do the job but a tank is always better... example: i saw ppl going to soa with a tyrr instead of a tank... and i did this too. but here u have 2 options: either you have a rly good healer (not handless healer and 87+ with party celestial), 87+ dds and pull 2, 3 groups max or if u want to pull more than 2, 3 groups u need a feoh with snare skill to keep mobs in place. otherwise u get *****. and in both of these scenarios u will need twice or more the time to finish the quest than u would with a normal party with tank. and this applies to every pve location...
kartia can't be used as example, it's a very easy instance. a feoh with snare can "tank" mobs till last boss.
my idea of a perfect party includes a tank in all cases... the problem is they are hard to find most of times.
if there is someone who prefer to take tyrr to, lets say soa or any other loc that requiers aggro, instead of tank by their own choice, let them be lol, i don't know why you care... this game is full of slow minded people anyways. but my favorite one is the ppl making partys for kartia85 or soa for 87+ ppl instead of 85+. my dual class is now 87 but it was hard to get partys in 85 and 86. what idiots didn't knew was: 300 wep, 120x3 set and plus i'm not rly a handless player in the classes i have. people think that in these cases lvl means more that gear and to know how to play. same goes for fortuna, wanna compare the damage of any dd 92 weap300 with 94lvl 50weap? lol :B and yes, they exist.
lvl means more than gear. how are you going to beat that 50% damage penalty that you have at 85 with gear?
i dont think anyone was talking about soa, that place is known for aggro issues. at least a tyrr can solo that place just fine, along with other classes.
anyway, if you find a competent tyrr i guarantee you that some spots are way faster with tyrr... like for example aoe in eg or hf. all dailies can be done with tyrr but there are instances where you require a competent tank(s)... istina octavis etc
that being said, if someone get a tank i have no objection, they are welcome, but plenty of times some of them are there just to look pretty... not like with tyrrs never happened
try 350+k in pagans chapel rooms when I was soloing there but then again am not a typical tank and my gear/set up ain't typical either so yeah in general speaking tanks will not out dps a classic DD class..
still any dps that's added to the party is nice to have, I recall at start GoD that there were many tanks with just a C grade HP weapon and only spammed aoe hate.. now those folks gave tanks a really bad name imo..
of course a tyrr with same type of gear would be a monster. i was talking about typical tyrr, with +3 equipment and +4 weapon and so on but you got my point and i got yours.
the key word here is "competent" tank or to be more general ppl who know their class really well and know how to act at the right time/situation.. kind of rare these days that breed ^^"
lvl means more than gear. how are you going to beat that 50% damage penalty that you have at 85 with gear?
i dont think anyone was talking about soa, that place is known for aggro issues. at least a tyrr can solo that place just fine, along with other classes.
anyway, if you find a competent tyrr i guarantee you that some spots are way faster with tyrr... like for example aoe in eg or hf. all dailies can be done with tyrr but there are instances where you require a competent tank(s)... istina octavis etc
that being said, if someone get a tank i have no objection, they are welcome, but plenty of times some of them are there just to look pretty... not like with tyrrs never happened
i know lvl>gear overall. BUT a lvl 85 char with good set, good weapon 300 and nice gameplay is better and contributes more to a party than a lvl 87 handless noob with crap weap and set... i strongly belive that a 85 dd with 300 weap makes more damage to mobs than 87 char with clean weapon... and as far as "contributing" goes, i can give u an example: nice iss 85 vs crap iss 88. iss 85 gives sonatas in time, debuff all mobs, gives aegis/root/etc in right time, and iss 88 is wondering around, misses sonatas and forgets to debuff, etc... ofc 85 iss would be better to party in this case... that's all i'm saying and i proved it... i made partys in kartia and soa with 87+ handless ppl and failed, and i also made with 85-86 cool players and was smooth and crystal... and same goes for fortuna and spez... i remember 1 week ago, i was in a party and we were all 91-94 and i'm telling you was one of the smoothest fortunas and spezions i did in all my life... was perfect, perfect dps, perfect timings and in pod we even did pvp with a party of 4 97+players (dagger+feoh+iss+heal) and we won... ofc we were all with decent equips, weapons 300 etc. but my point is, i made alot of fortunas with some 95+ players and i didn't saw the same dps, and gameplay as in that 91-94 party... all i'm saying is, altough lvl mathers a lot, knowing how to play your class, how to support party and having good gear can give you an awesome advantage. and this is why i never discriminate players by lvl, i only judge them by their gameplay and behaviour in party. when i'm making partys for 85-90 locs i search 85-90 players, and so on.
i know some locs can be smooth without tank, i never said otherwise... and as i said, tyrr+feoh with snare is nice since tank's spot in party is occupied by +1 dps and with snare all mobs are in place for optimized aoe... but despite tank means less dps, it also means way more mobs... and with a strong aoe party+tank you will kill more mobs per hour than with a tyrr tanking... the only limit is mobs respawn...
i don't agree that competent tyrr can make aoe in eg or hf faster than a competent tank... but i can agree that a competent tyrr can make aoe faster than a incompetent tank...
Thanks for giving that example Draecke, and i do love Ncsoft for giving us this lovely Gainek Place <3
where scripted/programmed Tanks fail. I will Shine among all of them Noobs cause I AM LEGIT !
yday Gainek invite to random created pt. I went there and a half hour later i was getting pmed from party members, how great i am doing the tank/kitein. I was kinda confused cause doing this doesnt require much.
and than i realized that this spot requirs Tanks to actually be at Pc :rolleyes:
to go back on topic. i had an 99 tyrr with awesomeness Gear in gainek pt.
he was 1shot to every kind of mob at Gainek while i was actually able to block atks and even outstand some hvy hits BECAUSE I AM A TANK !
also Hellfire, I doubt a Tyrr can take whole 50ish daily quest room and survive that incoming dmg, Pro Tanks even with sucky Gear can handle this and not Die ! Because we are Tanks.
Thanks for giving that example Draecke, and i do love Ncsoft for giving us this lovely Gainek Place <3
where scripted/programmed Tanks fail. I will Shine among all of them Noobs cause I AM LEGIT !
yday Gainek invite to random created pt. I went there and a half hour later i was getting pmed from party members, how great i am doing the tank/kitein. I was kinda confused cause doing this doesnt require much.
and than i realized that this spot requirs Tanks to actually be at Pc :rolleyes:
to go back on topic. i had an 99 tyrr with awesomeness Gear in gainek pt.
he was 1shot to every kind of mob at Gainek while i was actually able to block atks and even outstand some hvy hits BECAUSE I AM A TANK !
also Hellfire, I doubt a Tyrr can take whole 50ish daily quest room and survive that incoming dmg, Pro Tanks even with sucky Gear can handle this and not Die ! Because we are Tanks.
With my 250 eva, I evade hits in gainak, can I be awesome as you?
I have to ask - what is this miraculous place called "Gainek"?
Yeeeees. I was missing from the game for some time.
99 place where to kill very angry Nerva Orcs, which one-shot every class, except for tank.
what I'm still wondering is why the heck a Tank have to feel the need to make dmg, instead of caring of tanking? Ok, True Vanguard gives 50% more dmg, but what's that? do you really think that those % will make any difference for the dmg overall, yet if compared to tyrr/yul/othell's dmg? Guys, dont be delusional. Its the same an healer poppin up True Inquisitor and hitting over the Feoh, lets be real here. That skills is only a mana sink, nothing more in party pve. As same a tanker running with armor in Attack Type setup, clearly a hp sink for tank, and mana sink for healers. I believe a tank that instead of protect the party (its role!!), does only put the party's survivability in danger, its doing smtg wrong. Gonna keep some Egos low, guys - a party is formed by 7 members, not 1.
Keep in mind that crowd control isnt only spam Agression or AoE hate, but you must pull, stun, block, interrupt skills, and if you are a PK Sigel, do AoE root aswell. This are the expected actions from a tanker, whats totally different from he stand there hitting nonstop.
If the Tank plays the tank role, ok, Tank > Tyrr for every situation concerning tank abilities. But if tank wanna play DD role, then obviously Tyrr > any Tank, period.
honestly, i just see ppl taking tyrrs as tanks when they can't find tanks... a tyrr can do the job but a tank is always better... example: i saw ppl going to soa with a tyrr instead of a tank... and i did this too. but here u have 2 options: either you have a rly good healer (not handless healer and 87+ with party celestial), 87+ dds and pull 2, 3 groups max or if u want to pull more than 2, 3 groups u need a feoh with snare skill to keep mobs in place. otherwise u get *****. and in both of these scenarios u will need twice or more the time to finish the quest than u would with a normal party with tank. and this applies to every pve location...
My answer is: people is scared. They are afraid to try, then lose xp, then fail. Since you mentioned SoA as example, tank also is unecessary there too. Healer + Iss + Summoner + 3 Othells can surprise you there. All not 2boxed, ofc. Summoner with bears up, a clever iss to put token in the right target and all 3 othells assisting each other > mobs dead before you can even notice. But I know ppl that just give up if you simply mention to go there without tank, phew... :o
Forgive the English ... I understand what the creator of the topic says. For you to become a good tank, you will have to have equipment and will have to have good jewelry boss. The problem with a Tyrr same equipment will always be better, do not understand what NCsoft really wants, usually in my opinion the Tyrr is a warrior who can use light or heavy armor, most Tyrr use heavy armor because they hardly lose skills, and have a physical defense too close to the tank, use knight harmony and yet their damage still high, ie Tyrr ends up having an advantage, in addition to HP higher than the tank, which I find absurd, physical defense virtually identical and today the cause of Tyrr this better than the assault tank, and not to mention the damage that cause Tyrr are better, the people prefer to put two Tyrr in part to waste time waiting for a tank. In the PVP Tyrr also takes advantage on top of the tank, and this why NCsoft changed aggression claiming the Tank became a great char to pvp and wanted to force them to use other skills which hardly use, but the current goes crashing too much to pull.
For me, NCsfot not really balancing anything for me in pvp every class has to have the means or opportunity for the player to be able to defeat the other, course level account equipment, jewelry, armor, dyes all that counts, but classes that have the same level of equipment stands. The problem is, the NCsfot wants to do well geared tank for PVP, but walks ending their skills, the problem is that she does not realize that slowly ruining this class because she's spoiling certain skills, the skill of 60k now the king of beasts now has only 35 k of power loads in 30 seconds, but it causes less damage than before, spends more than 1 k mana, ie, what is the advantage of this, this absurd spending mana, if you look updating the Lindivior NCsfot improved by 100% Tyrr, their skills, both active as passive, decreased reuse of one, the other conditions, leaving him still Tyrr much more appealing, and today in my opinion not a tank in same lvl and equipment level can defeat a Tyrr.
That's why she wants the tank facing the PVP, but as you want, if skills are destroying the tank? There is no way, in my opinion only the tank could use heavy armor, since its passive skill only allows this, and if Tyrr can use heavy armor, he should suffer much loss of damage, since he is giving up attack to increase their defense, but that is not what happens. And the HP of the tank should be much larger than the tank, when I talk HP, native speak without using Dyes, these things, since the obligation tank and stay longer alive, and punica aggression that should have decreased the power would aggression mass, but the other should have continued like this. They should review some of the skills Tyrr, are spending less mana, reuse time too fast in Lindvior they simply exaggerate the skills of Tyrr and ended up with many of the skills Tank, so people prefer to use two Tyrr and in a few days, will stop using tank up in Instina boss and others that still requires the presence of the tank, today people already do Instina with only one tank.
To sum it all, I predict that if NCsfot not do something, it will just destroy the tank with the class. Since there are classes with the same defense power tank, that's a lot more damage, higher HP, and have even better survival skills, because skills like Ultimate Defense load in 15 minutes is a long nonsense, and Ultimate Defense the tank that the party receives protection makes the tank is damaged, because 90% of the damage that others will get to the Tank, this is absurd, because the logic just does not work. In other words, things have skills in the tank which is absurd, because it goes against the ideology of NCsoft in doing tank facing the PVP too, because the other classes have a maximum of only 1 or 2 skills with time 10 to 15 minutes to load, because for NCsoft they are geared only for PVP, the tank has most skills defense with 15 minutes, the shield was tweaked by Spike complained that the 40% and 40% of these reflect only takes 10 seconds to skill and it loads in 1 minute did not see the logic in having it moved.
For no one moved in the Tyrr Revival skill that recovers 100% of HP, if so, when moved in the Spike Shield Tank, where I do not know where I read, it was more of a complaint Tyrr in NCsoft Korea, but did not see NCsoft looking at some of the skills Tyrr, I think the skill Revival should heal only 50% of his HP and not 100%, since the Tyrr has more HP than the tank, it would give a balance, or else increase the casting of skill, as did Knight with Frenzy, increased casting this skill, ie the Tank was the most affected in time increase, increase in MP absurd ones, and even then, NCsoft claimed that it was best to just leave it in PVP. But in view of what the best PVP she means.
If the Tank plays the tank role, ok, Tank > Tyrr for every situation concerning tank abilities. But if tank wanna play DD role, then obviously Tyrr > any Tank, period.
not to be too obvious but gear & lvl/skill oe's do factor in hard here.. a Tyr with below average gear etc. will not be better then a tank with above average gear etc.
beyond that sure but stop talking about how things is done at the low lvl end of the game as the real deal is happening at the 99+ spots aka Gainax/Cross roads etc now and in next update the revamped HB area..
i know lvl>gear overall. BUT a lvl 85 char with good set, good weapon 300 and nice gameplay is better and contributes more to a party than a lvl 87 handless noob with crap weap and set... i strongly belive that a 85 dd with 300 weap makes more damage to mobs than 87 char with clean weapon... and as far as "contributing" goes, i can give u an example: nice iss 85 vs crap iss 88. iss 85 gives sonatas in time, debuff all mobs, gives aegis/root/etc in right time, and iss 88 is wondering around, misses sonatas and forgets to debuff, etc... ofc 85 iss would be better to party in this case... that's all i'm saying and i proved it... i made partys in kartia and soa with 87+ handless ppl and failed, and i also made with 85-86 cool players and was smooth and crystal... and same goes for fortuna and spez... i remember 1 week ago, i was in a party and we were all 91-94 and i'm telling you was one of the smoothest fortunas and spezions i did in all my life... was perfect, perfect dps, perfect timings and in pod we even did pvp with a party of 4 97+players (dagger+feoh+iss+heal) and we won... ofc we were all with decent equips, weapons 300 etc. but my point is, i made alot of fortunas with some 95+ players and i didn't saw the same dps, and gameplay as in that 91-94 party... all i'm saying is, altough lvl mathers a lot, knowing how to play your class, how to support party and having good gear can give you an awesome advantage. and this is why i never discriminate players by lvl, i only judge them by their gameplay and behaviour in party. when i'm making partys for 85-90 locs i search 85-90 players, and so on.
i know some locs can be smooth without tank, i never said otherwise... and as i said, tyrr+feoh with snare is nice since tank's spot in party is occupied by +1 dps and with snare all mobs are in place for optimized aoe... but despite tank means less dps, it also means way more mobs... and with a strong aoe party+tank you will kill more mobs per hour than with a tyrr tanking... the only limit is mobs respawn...
i don't agree that competent tyrr can make aoe in eg or hf faster than a competent tank... but i can agree that a competent tyrr can make aoe faster than a incompetent tank...
Since you were asking why ppl make party rooms with 87+.
Inviting ppl randomly means they can have any gear at all. 0 element to 300 element on weapon. 0 element to 120*3 on each piece on armor. Subskills or no subskills. Dual class skills or no dual class skills.
We have no way of knowing.
Which is why ppl tend to use the one thing they can control. The lvl of ppl, making sure they have no dmg penalty.
As for making a party and everyone knowing what to do, and everyone having super gear at 85, thats a utopia. The odds of a lvl 85 having perfect gear is so slim, that it's just not something you expect from "randoms". But hey, feel free to pm the leader of the party and show off your gear, they might bring you even though your lvl doesnt meet their requirement.
Not to mention 85-87 is really fast, just go kill some mobs, or god forbid, make some parties with clannies, until you meet the requirement for random parties. If you rely too heavily on random groups to get your exp though, why are you stuck in a dead clan?
i know lvl>gear overall. BUT a lvl 85 char with good set, good weapon 300 and nice gameplay is better and contributes more to a party than a lvl 87 handless noob with crap weap and set...
300 Attribute on a level 85 toon for group content doesn't matter. I'd still take the 87 who will almost assuredly have a 150 stone on his weapon. The difference in dmg will still almost always be in favor of the 87 except for the lowest level content, because NCSoft set the levels of most MOBs to be mid-range for their level tiers to prevent them from going purple (XP Penalty) too early.
For example, SoA is almost all 88+ MOBs once you go past Chickens (which hardly anyone does anymore). Stronghold is all 90+ MOBs. Kartia 85 is pink to a level 85, so they're level 88+ MOBs (2 levels over is yellow).
The level penalty is strong. Not only does your base damage get nerfed, but your Resist Rate is higher and it nerfs your Magic Accuracy on those MOBs. You get a ton more evades than a character without the penalty. It also seems like your crit rate gets nerfed as well (at least seemed that way on Feoh, but I haven't tested that).
That's why (as Smittie said) most groups will go with level. You can safely assume most people will have a +150 stone on their weapons because it's too easy and cheap to accomplish that. Armor quality matters only when the players will be taking frequent hits, but any R set works for those levels, and it doesn't even have to be 60*3. It can be whatever the person wants as long as they have set it up properly for the content they do most.
Fortuna NOW with 91-94 characters is fine. Fortuna Pre-Lindvior with 2-3 DDs less than 93 was like watching paint dry. No one wanted to do that, which is why more party rooms were set for 93+ and only dropped down the requirement when they were looking for support classes.
Also, it's hard to fine a level 87 toon with gear so terrible that they'r edoing that content with no attribute on their weapon or armor. Most players will get one shot and run to an RMT web site to "farm adena for upgrades."
i was able to take 4 hits in gainak as a warrior can i be a tank now?:D.now tbh its always better to have a tank there but even with warrior that spams jump and kites well it can be done ,slowly but it can be done
(..)beyond that sure but stop talking about how things is done at the low lvl end of the game as the real deal is happening at the 99+ spots aka Gainax/Cross roads etc now and in next update the revamped HB area..
almost everyone i know still does the daily instance run on dualclass now - and a tank is easy to replace with a tyrr at those spots, and thats not ok :) - besides that, i rarly see parties forming for the new 99 areas in PM and I dont see much reasons to hunt there .. as 99 is max level now. And who knows if we ever get the next update.
it's the only place to farm r99 pvp/pve armor stones and it has decent to good drops/spoils for make adena + gives nice XP which in next update with new max lvls are 100/100/99/99 so whats not to like ?
any idea how slow XP goes at 99 ? it's faster to lvl a char up from zero to 98+ then make 10% on 99..
Since you were asking why ppl make party rooms with 87+.
Inviting ppl randomly means they can have any gear at all. 0 element to 300 element on weapon. 0 element to 120*3 on each piece on armor. Subskills or no subskills. Dual class skills or no dual class skills.
We have no way of knowing.
Which is why ppl tend to use the one thing they can control. The lvl of ppl, making sure they have no dmg penalty.
As for making a party and everyone knowing what to do, and everyone having super gear at 85, thats a utopia. The odds of a lvl 85 having perfect gear is so slim, that it's just not something you expect from "randoms". But hey, feel free to pm the leader of the party and show off your gear, they might bring you even though your lvl doesnt meet their requirement.
Not to mention 85-87 is really fast, just go kill some mobs, or god forbid, make some parties with clannies, until you meet the requirement for random parties. If you rely too heavily on random groups to get your exp though, why are you stuck in a dead clan?
i know, in randoms we don't really have the way of knowing if ppl have good gear or are good players but i never discriminate without knowing simply because it happened to me and i didn't like it. i have a list of players with whom i will never party again, their are either idiots that don't even want to take advices or really bad players...
i'm not really a const player atm, i can't log every day or at the same time... so const party is not an option right now... my clan is lvl10 with all skills and despite of being dead atm i won't leave my clan because i love it, means a lot to me, and since i can't join consts, even in a active clan i would have to dig some randoms to do dailys... when my clan died and my const party members joined big clans or stopped playing i tought about joining a big clan with them too... but i can't really join any big clan because i have issues in being clannie with unscrupulous idiots... and all big clans have some :rolleyes:
I was kinda confused cause doing this doesnt require much.
and than i realized that this spot requirs Tanks to actually be at Pc :rolleyes:
rly? :D
i just tank these mobs no need to run around
and even gainak to pop peopls bubble
1 healer or 2 healer
and 1 iss
and 5 or 4 archers is far better cus of half killing with 1200 range
anyway people complaining about tanks etc not being able to do their job
its most likely random partys where people do not pull big enough trains to actually make the diff between a tyrr and a tank i mean for example no tyrr in soa will be able to pull what i used to pull back at start of GoD any tyrr who claims he can and stay alive is just talkin bs out of his ***.
another thing is if pvp happends and ur there with your lol tyrant u will lose instantly.
tank is needed period if u dont know as tank how to get max out of your healer heres a tip
for example ur at soa
u pull 3 groups u felt like it was easy by checking ur hp bar?
then pull 6 groups u still didnt see the healer having trouble pull 7 / 8 / 9
etc just test ur healer and ur self that way it makes things alot more fun and makes u as tank alot more wanted then a ****** tyrr.
Forgive the English ... I understand what the creator of the topic says. For you to become a good tank, you will have to have equipment and will have to have good jewelry boss. The problem with a Tyrr same equipment will always be better, do not understand what NCsoft really wants, usually in my opinion the Tyrr is a warrior who can use light or heavy armor, most Tyrr use heavy armor because they hardly lose skills, and have a physical defense too close to the tank, use knight harmony and yet their damage still high, ie Tyrr ends up having an advantage, in addition to HP higher than the tank, which I find absurd, physical defense virtually identical and today the cause of Tyrr this better than the assault tank, and not to mention the damage that cause Tyrr are better, the people prefer to put two Tyrr in part to waste time waiting for a tank. In the PVP Tyrr also takes advantage on top of the tank, and this why NCsoft changed aggression claiming the Tank became a great char to pvp and wanted to force them to use other skills which hardly use, but the current goes crashing too much to pull.
For me, NCsfot not really balancing anything for me in pvp every class has to have the means or opportunity for the player to be able to defeat the other, course level account equipment, jewelry, armor, dyes all that counts, but classes that have the same level of equipment stands. The problem is, the NCsfot wants to do well geared tank for PVP, but walks ending their skills, the problem is that she does not realize that slowly ruining this class because she's spoiling certain skills, the skill of 60k now the king of beasts now has only 35 k of power loads in 30 seconds, but it causes less damage than before, spends more than 1 k mana, ie, what is the advantage of this, this absurd spending mana, if you look updating the Lindivior NCsfot improved by 100% Tyrr, their skills, both active as passive, decreased reuse of one, the other conditions, leaving him still Tyrr much more appealing, and today in my opinion not a tank in same lvl and equipment level can defeat a Tyrr.
That's why she wants the tank facing the PVP, but as you want, if skills are destroying the tank? There is no way, in my opinion only the tank could use heavy armor, since its passive skill only allows this, and if Tyrr can use heavy armor, he should suffer much loss of damage, since he is giving up attack to increase their defense, but that is not what happens. And the HP of the tank should be much larger than the tank, when I talk HP, native speak without using Dyes, these things, since the obligation tank and stay longer alive, and punica aggression that should have decreased the power would aggression mass, but the other should have continued like this. They should review some of the skills Tyrr, are spending less mana, reuse time too fast in Lindvior they simply exaggerate the skills of Tyrr and ended up with many of the skills Tank, so people prefer to use two Tyrr and in a few days, will stop using tank up in Instina boss and others that still requires the presence of the tank, today people already do Instina with only one tank.
To sum it all, I predict that if NCsfot not do something, it will just destroy the tank with the class. Since there are classes with the same defense power tank, that's a lot more damage, higher HP, and have even better survival skills, because skills like Ultimate Defense load in 15 minutes is a long nonsense, and Ultimate Defense the tank that the party receives protection makes the tank is damaged, because 90% of the damage that others will get to the Tank, this is absurd, because the logic just does not work. In other words, things have skills in the tank which is absurd, because it goes against the ideology of NCsoft in doing tank facing the PVP too, because the other classes have a maximum of only 1 or 2 skills with time 10 to 15 minutes to load, because for NCsoft they are geared only for PVP, the tank has most skills defense with 15 minutes, the shield was tweaked by Spike complained that the 40% and 40% of these reflect only takes 10 seconds to skill and it loads in 1 minute did not see the logic in having it moved.
For no one moved in the Tyrr Revival skill that recovers 100% of HP, if so, when moved in the Spike Shield Tank, where I do not know where I read, it was more of a complaint Tyrr in NCsoft Korea, but did not see NCsoft looking at some of the skills Tyrr, I think the skill Revival should heal only 50% of his HP and not 100%, since the Tyrr has more HP than the tank, it would give a balance, or else increase the casting of skill, as did Knight with Frenzy, increased casting this skill, ie the Tank was the most affected in time increase, increase in MP absurd ones, and even then, NCsoft claimed that it was best to just leave it in PVP. But in view of what the best PVP she means.
people go seed of hellfire and pull 1 mob at the time just pull whole freaking room now what tyrr is going to stay alive? i doubt any tyrr will stay alive..
1 by 1 any class can tank a mob thats problem nowadays people play so super safe make the healers work tank tons of mobs make other classes AoE
dont be silly with your 1 by 1 crap then yes tank is not needed
I pull 4-5 groups on my Tyr for 50 quest and stay alive just fine as the tank. Every now and then I may drop but its not that bad. :D
For the friend who put The MY GOD. I'll tell you what I think, NCsoft decided to make the tank also geared for PVP because games online competitors Tank is also good for pvp, the problem that she does not know how to do this, see the skills of the tank, consumes more mana than Tyrr eg Tyrr with heavy set also has P.defesa near the tank causes more damage to the tank, the tank even taking their passive skill to a 35% reduction in critical demage received, this only applies to critical demage and not damage normal skills that end up being high. What I say the problem of adjustment skills, most skills that make Tyrr powerful loads easy, and the skills that increase physical defense of Tank lasts 15 minutes, it gets to be absurd, and still has Tyrr Revival , or to simply rarely can cancel it.
That is, for me even using Tyrr Heavy should have the smallest defense Tank, since Tyrr is a warrior, its function is more damage, it is not for nothing that he has skills that increase the skills to beat stronger and cause more damage, and even these skills them load faster than the skills of defense Tank. The consumption of the Tyrr skills should be much higher, I think some skills absurd defense tank mp consuming, because since the tank is geared to endure a beating, is the same as denying it to him. NCsoft does not know how to balance classes and this was evident because Tyrr more HP, Knight Harmony + using heavy armor is much more appealing and yes withstands pulling several mobs, not to mention that the assault was garbage for PVE because NCsoft had said that would only be weak for pvp, but for pve would be improved, is not had a day that I gave 4 assault followed and still not got one in a mob of lvl lower than me.
Chain and Chain Strike Hydra taking this more, but failing in the same way, ie just with aggression, trying to force the tank to use these two skills, which simply is not giving almost no effect, mainly for pvp, as they wanted increased the chances yes, but they came to nothing, because use to use, but that does not solve the skill Shield Impact at the beginning took a 1 second stun, then stun increased to 5 seconds, but when caught, it when you get the stun, started hitting the opponent, stun some, this is ridiculous, why would it want to improve tank in pvp, funny that cage Wynn summoner and skill to lift the Feohs, get the time that described there, you can beat the will that the effect of skill does not disappear, why then stun has to disappear if it is a weapon of the tank? See, there are many things that should be reviewed.
Doesn't any tank feel like they lose there spot for pve party? a tyrr with the same gear can do the tank job already beside they got more attack power why would they need a tank?
if you are a tank and feel like that i suggest to re-roll.
being tank in HB i pull 6 kundas together with 5-10 engineers for fast AOE the dailies. in the families side spot with the smaller mobs i pull 8-10 groups. speaking about the PVE aspect alone, my vanguard toggle adds so much damage to the group, i count any tank as DD as long as he doesnt run out of mp.
i want to see a tyrr do that...
edit: something else i wanted to add is that with the huge HP aspect combined with higher pdef, auras and superior agro skills benefit the entire group, including the healer who can heal the party more easy with a tank than a tyrr who takes a lot more damage and where the power provoke is more based on luck than on skill.
For the friend who put The MY GOD. I'll tell you what I think, NCsoft decided to make the tank also geared for PVP because games online competitors Tank is also good for pvp, the problem that she does not know how to do this, see the skills of the tank, consumes more mana than Tyrr eg Tyrr with heavy set also has P.defesa near the tank causes more damage to the tank, the tank even taking their passive skill to a 35% reduction in critical demage received, this only applies to critical demage and not damage normal skills that end up being high. What I say the problem of adjustment skills, most skills that make Tyrr powerful loads easy, and the skills that increase physical defense of Tank lasts 15 minutes, it gets to be absurd, and still has Tyrr Revival , or to simply rarely can cancel it.
That is, for me even using Tyrr Heavy should have the smallest defense Tank, since Tyrr is a warrior, its function is more damage, it is not for nothing that he has skills that increase the skills to beat stronger and cause more damage, and even these skills them load faster than the skills of defense Tank. The consumption of the Tyrr skills should be much higher, I think some skills absurd defense tank mp consuming, because since the tank is geared to endure a beating, is the same as denying it to him. NCsoft does not know how to balance classes and this was evident because Tyrr more HP, Knight Harmony + using heavy armor is much more appealing and yes withstands pulling several mobs, not to mention that the assault was garbage for PVE because NCsoft had said that would only be weak for pvp, but for pve would be improved, is not had a day that I gave 4 assault followed and still not got one in a mob of lvl lower than me.
Chain and Chain Strike Hydra taking this more, but failing in the same way, ie just with aggression, trying to force the tank to use these two skills, which simply is not giving almost no effect, mainly for pvp, as they wanted increased the chances yes, but they came to nothing, because use to use, but that does not solve the skill Shield Impact at the beginning took a 1 second stun, then stun increased to 5 seconds, but when caught, it when you get the stun, started hitting the opponent, stun some, this is ridiculous, why would it want to improve tank in pvp, funny that cage Wynn summoner and skill to lift the Feohs, get the time that described there, you can beat the will that the effect of skill does not disappear, why then stun has to disappear if it is a weapon of the tank? See, there are many things that should be reviewed.
you dont really make sense, but from the little i do get from what you are saying is wrong. if you where right, i want to know why tyrr's usually loose to tanks in oly and open pvp 1vs1.
also tanks stun skills are superior and the cooldown was extended with the last update because some classes and lower levels we where able to keep in almost perma stun. so that balanced it a lot more.
U think u are a tank, but u wrong!! ALLWAYS one warrior, allways one sword.I am the eternal champion. THIS is my glory , this is my DOOM!! "DARK AVENGER"
you dont really make sense, but from the little i do get from what you are saying is wrong. if you where right, i want to know why tyrr's usually loose to tanks in oly and open pvp 1vs1.
also tanks stun skills are superior and the cooldown was extended with the last update because some classes and lower levels we where able to keep in almost perma stun. so that balanced it a lot more.
the only thing that make tyrr lose vs a tank is all forms of reflect, that simple. all the gay passive active and skill reflect do the trick, you basically kill yourself. oly is with poor buffs while full buffed tanks dont gain that much as warriors do. anyway, nobody contest the usefulness of tanks at some bosses or party pvp but for dailies pve?... cmon, tyrr is better, especially if those have some insane gear. you can see tyrrs soloing areas where some poor parties with tank included struggle to get their **** done. same thing in pvp, some tyrrs solo parties, i want to see any tank doing that.
My tyrr was able to solo camps in Stronghold, Isle of souls, where I see ppl party matching full parties, so I guess you are right to a certain degree.
I would still not party match Tyrrs instead of actual tanks though. Tanks have their place in game too.
the only thing that make tyrr lose vs a tank is all forms of reflect, that simple. all the gay passive active and skill reflect do the trick, you basically kill yourself. oly is with poor buffs while full buffed tanks dont gain that much as warriors do. anyway, nobody contest the usefulness of tanks at some bosses or party pvp but for dailies pve?... cmon, tyrr is better, especially if those have some insane gear. you can see tyrrs soloing areas where some poor parties with tank included struggle to get their **** done. same thing in pvp, some tyrrs solo parties, i want to see any tank doing that.
i completely disagree with you. you talking about reflect but revive yourself every few minutes, use invincible and practically we have to kill every tyrr 3x in oly. all classes that even have the high reflect augments are hard to kill, thats why i prefer resist reflect on my weapon/buffs.
i wonder if you actually passed 97 yet and if you actually do real PVP or if you are talking about lowbie PVP like a 95 tyrr vs a 90 tank or something :D. but hey, whatever floats your boat.
My tyrr was able to solo camps in Stronghold, Isle of souls, where I see ppl party matching full parties, so I guess you are right to a certain degree.
I would still not party match Tyrrs instead of actual tanks though. Tanks have their place in game too.
any class can solo there if played properly.
I gotta agree with most.
I think in most cases Tyrr is more effective than a tank. For PvsE the aggro skills of the tank are outweighed by the damage output of the Tyrr.
For PvsP if they make the aggro skills work then the tank would be interesting but right now Tyrr all the way
and you are just full of "it". :D
if you have take it personally then... idk. my bro char is already 99 so i think i saw what a tyrr with standard equipment can do, what 1000 idiots playing tanks cant do. dont talk like its a general rule, plenty of tanks gets beaten by tyrrs. then i saw what tyrrs with good equipment and stuff can do... not saying there arent tyrrs with lvl and gear that arent noobs, look at our server titan hero.
U think u are a tank, but u wrong!! ALLWAYS one warrior, allways one sword.I am the eternal champion. THIS is my glory , this is my DOOM!! "DARK AVENGER"
Uh oh, someone forgot to take their court-ordered meds this week.
Forgive, I just say that most of the skills tank takes 15 minutes to load, say that the skills NCsfot apelonas as judges, but are not as well apelonas because last a 30 seconds, lasts 15 seconds and another if anyone has the part the damage they take 90% goes to the tank, the healer and there has to be great. But look at the skills of TyrRS, most loads fast and very hard, and greatly enhances their status. In reality Tyrr should by law, even using Heavy have a P. Low defense, to compensate for the high damage they give, should receive a lot of damage, I think the skill Revival Tyrr should not heal 100% of your HP, because HP's Tyrr is much larger than a Tank, aliais than any other class, accept heal 100% HP if it was not the greatest.
I just want to make that NCsot tank focused on pvp, but do not know what it does, just with aggression, increased the power of the Hydra Chain and Chain Stryke but they fail too many, and too much aggression fails even in PVE, which should not fail .
Not to mention the important skills Tank spend much mp as a skill that activates Shield Focus, I do not see many of Tyrr skills that need some rule to use, and I think it's absurd, that goes for Feoh, another class that most skills not have certain rules for use as the skills of the Tank, King of equal skill Beats, it decreased the delay, but increased absurdly mana consumption, decreased the power of it, for in the end it just does not pay for anything, who is will spend more than 1 k mana to drop a skill that's less damage than the other? No right, summarizing NCsoft can not do anything, even nothing. Same Impact Shield, disagree with the friend, the stun should not disappear when you hit the enemy, it should be time that tells skill, especially skill that goes crashing too successful in order to stun or taking walks right into moobs, imagine players.
Show me how you kill a camp in less than 20 seconds pls.
On.. lets say.... an ISS. You did say any class right?
We are not talking about every class being able to kill one mob at a time, are we?
are you kidding me?!?!? i soloed camps with my ISS at SH3 starting at like 93 or so. i never said i would clear 20 mobs in under 20 seconds or whatever jumps into your imagination. but yes, even ISS can solo there if played properly. my ISS sub is 96 now, but i can show you if you insist. contact me in game, any day you like (and for you i do it in my immo set).
and stop blaming others for you being so bad in the game and especially dont assume they are as bad as you are. i never said anyone nor everyone can do it, but a proper played class that didnt bot to where they are now, who knows what they are doing in average gear can do it.