I see shouts everywhere people promoting their websites that sells adena for real money. Why administration does not ban all those people? I mean shouting is noticable right?
This is unfair because I can not buy adena for real money (not because I dont have it) but because I just feel its re-tarded to pay someone real money to earn some virtual money that is not even worth it.
But those who have their parents rich and have no lives buy it and come out with TOP gear and we have to grind for centuries without buying.
Any reasons why NCsoft does not ban these accounts?
I see shouts everywhere people promoting their websites that sells adena for real money. Why administration does not ban all those people? I mean shouting is noticable right?
This is unfair because I can not buy adena for real money (not because I dont have it) but because I just feel its re-tarded to pay someone real money to earn some virtual money that is not even worth it.
But those who have their parents rich and have no lives buy it and come out with TOP gear and we have to grind for centuries without buying.
Any reasons why NCsoft does not ban these accounts?
they ban them. But it costs nothing to make a new account and shout from that one so ....
I feel like they should make account registration not free like it was before. That way not many bots will be made. I'd rather pay monthly to play fair then like this.
I feel like they should make account registration not free like it was before. That way not many bots will be made. I'd rather pay monthly to play fair then like this.
Even when you had to pay to play this game, there were adena sellers robo-calling the villagers. There is no effective way to obviate this activity without negatively impacting the game. As it is, they've changed it so that you can't shout, talk, or pm at low levels, which makes it a little tougher for legitimate new players to find mentors, make friends, or ask questions of other players.
This is unfair because I can not buy adena for real money (not because I dont have it) but because I just feel its re-tarded to pay someone real money to earn some virtual money that is not even worth it.
You are not paying for the adena... you are paying for the collection and delivery of the adena.
This is very similar to the water (which you can get free) and electricity delivered to your home. It is a service, like most, for the lazy.
So we buy water and electricity from companies because we are lazy? We could gather it ourselves and save some money, right?
Am I the only one to take Dracha's posts as what they are, meaning...
Nope...I'm on board with most of what I see him write....saves me some typing, and sometimes I'm so disgusted with people, I type words of disgust and weariness of it all, rather than sarcasm as I would prefer. Keep up the good work Dracha! lol
So we buy water and electricity from companies because we are lazy? We could gather it ourselves and save some money, right?
You could get your own water and electricity as a matter of fact, if you were so inclined. Most imbeciles can not derive concepts from the words they read nor understand these concepts entirely.
let's take the word most... not all... or every... most.
In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.
In this example not all fish have fins, but an imbecile might say "all fish have fins!" However, most of us would understand this is not the case.
You could get your own water and electricity as a matter of fact, if you were so inclined.
Theoritically it is possible, although it would cost significantly more than buying the service, not to mention the space that would be required (anyone can do it in a flat, right?). Using this example to call people lazy is total fail.
Most imbeciles can not derive concepts from the words they read nor understand these concepts entirely.
Most imbeciles write incoherently failing to provide solid arguments or examples.
i dont say its not possible because i have water sources that come from mountains and i can drink it with no hesitation but i'd like to see him drinking water directly from colorado river... lol
I really can’t believe you guys are arguing the water/electricity example… it is simply an example of paying for something that you COULD get for free. To take offense and assume you’re lazy because you pay for electricity or water clearly indicates you are missing two major components of the statement.
First, most does not include all. It merely indicates a large portion of the indicated group.
Second, by its very definition, service means an action of helping or doing work for someone.
Let’s revisit my comment and break it down for those that are having a tough time with it.
You are not paying for the adena... you are paying for the collection and delivery of the adena.
This is very similar to the water (which you can get free) and electricity delivered to your home. It is a service, like most, for the lazy.
sim·i·lar
1. resembling without being identical.
serv·ice
1. the action of helping or doing work for someone.
the action or process of serving food and drinks to customers.
"they complained of poor bar service"
synonyms: waiting, waitressing, serving, attendance
a period of employment with a company or organization.
"he retired after 40 years' service"
synonyms: work, employment, employ, labor
employment as a servant.
"the pitifully low wages gained from domestic service"
the use that can be made of a machine.
"the computer should provide good service for years"
synonyms: use, usage;
the services
"troops from all branches of the services"
synonyms: armed forces, armed services, military;
2. a system supplying a public need such as transport, communications, or utilities such as electricity and water.
When we pay for a convenience, a service is being purchased. In many (most) situations those with the ability to pay someone else to do a menial task will take that option.
While I can make my own dinner I will often pay a “service” provider to do this tedious task, this also has the added benefit of not having to do the dishes. Granted the food service industry includes the cost of food most of the cost is associated to the "service" provided. Speaking of food, I could also grow my own food, but I will always pay the service fees to have farmers and ranchers do that hard labor, as most of us do.
While I could scurry down to the Colorado River with a couple buckets, I prefer to pay for it to be delivered to my reverse osmosis filtration system. Bottled water purchased from the local gas station, two 1 liter bottles for $2, is a service worth paying for when the other option is again scurrying down to the Colorado River with a cup.
last but not least...
la·zy
1. unwilling to work or use energy.
This is pretty straight and to the point, I wont add any more to this definition, if you can't understand this there nothing I can do to help you.
In conclusion, you are not paying for the adena... you are paying for the collection and delivery service. I can only hope this helps you better understand this simple concept.
This post does not in any way condone the use of any adena service regardless of how lazy you are, the point of the game is to experience everything possible, including earning your achievements and wealth.
I really can’t believe you guys are arguing the water/electricity example…
because those mentioned are services alright but are not services for the lazy. this is the point of a community and technology and evolution, to make things easier for us so we can have time for something else. what if suddently everyone in your city is going in the morning to get water from the river? lots of hours wasted by everyone else, on top of that traffic jamming and what not. its like sending 10 ppl to buy 10 beers when you can send just one to buy all 10 and you save the time for the rest of 9. on top of that you wouldnt drink water from a river because its filthy and needs to be filtered. you can only drink water from a spring or something similar. there are many services for lazy ppl but not these, these are a necessity...
Guys...wtf? you done speaking about "water/electricity" stuff?
The point is that : NCWest is pretty "corrupted" , and i guess is not just a "speculation" , since as you can see by urself , they "ban" RMT (false) , but the bots are still the same (kinda true) , and also , you can find bots everywhere around the server...but nowday is too late ^^ (it's not , but if they drop [by accident] the ban hammer once every 2 years ,it will be too late) , and let's face the truth : if you ban every bot , every scripter , every range user , every toon who ever botted even once...you will be left with nothing but dust in NCWest servers ^^
let's face the truth : if you ban every bot , every scripter , every range user , every toon who ever botted even once...you will be left with nothing but dust in NCWest servers ^^
im sure i would still be playing and many others like me.
Even when you had to pay to play this game, there were adena sellers robo-calling the villagers. There is no effective way to obviate this activity without negatively impacting the game. As it is, they've changed it so that you can't shout, talk, or pm at low levels, which makes it a little tougher for legitimate new players to find mentors, make friends, or ask questions of other players.
False.
$50 for the game and $15 per month kept this at a minimum for a long time. The main problem was lack of enforcement. If GM's actually banned those accounts even once a month they would never come back if it actually cost them money to do so.
Oh there were shouting machine bots, less shouting but TONS of PMs, peak times every 2-3 minutes. You may not remember that but I do very well, it made NC totally unprepared for such PM storms. Fact that game had to be paid was not an obstacle, either hacked accounts were used or those payments were made by stolen CC numbers. NC had their portion of problems with chargebacks - meaning still no $$ from "paying" accounts and fines on top of that. HGM was opposing exactly that in one of interviews, when people were complaining that they do not ban bots because those were paying customers too.
With paid subscriptions it wasn't as obvious because the population was low, when the game went free it opened the door to a lot more negative activity. Nc was never prepared for this. Now the problem is even more obvious with more players joining in the cheating
P.S. Anyway last word will be yours, just don't come with something too witty while I happily sleep or I'll have to kick myself in the butt for missing it :).
In the context of massively multiplayer online games (MMO), Real Money Transactions (RMT) are transactions of real-world currency (such as U.S. dollars) for in-game currency or goods. ~ reference ITLAW (http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Real_Money_Transactions)
If there was a way for every player to have one and only Account, and if there was a way to prevent any bot activity, that would be awesome. Try to imagine how necessary each and every class would be. Try to imagine how much importance each person would got. With no multi boxing and no boting, you could see ppl to enjoy this game for what it is.
But you see, l2 is an old game.
There comes the problem: Why someone to die grinding, in an old-designed mmo, while there are so many new-gen rivals out there, that requires much less grinding?
Solution: Let them bot, increase the population of the game, and by this way, more ppl will come. Increased population = chances of get some income and sustain the Servers. Simple as that.
Some of them will bot, some of them will not. This makes the game unfair for some people but can't be done otherwise.
Then the real money transaction comes in: Since there are people that boting, there are so many ways for someone to stuck adenas. And thus, here we got the vicious cycle of economy:
No boting and/or no multiboxing -> Low population -> Probable income loss -> Not sustainable Game Servers
Boting and/or multiboxing -> High population -> Probable income profit -> Sustainable Game servers
What of those would you pick if you were NC soft? :)
If there was a way for every player to have one and only Account, and if there was a way to prevent any bot activity, that would be awesome. Try to imagine how necessary each and every class would be. Try to imagine how much importance each person would got. With no multi boxing and no boting, you could see ppl to enjoy this game for what it is.
But you see, l2 is an old game.
There comes the problem: Why someone to die grinding, in an old-designed mmo, while there are so many new-gen rivals out there, that requires much less grinding?
Solution: Let them bot, increase the population of the game, and by this way, more ppl will come. Increased population = chances of get some income and sustain the Servers. Simple as that.
Some of them will bot, some of them will not. This makes the game unfair for some people but can't be done otherwise.
Then the real money transaction comes in: Since there are people that boting, there are so many ways for someone to stuck adenas. And thus, here we got the vicious cycle of economy:
No boting and/or no multiboxing -> Low population -> Probable income loss -> Not sustainable Game Servers
Boting and/or multiboxing -> High population -> Probable income profit -> Sustainable Game servers
What of those would you pick if you were NC soft? :)
People bot because they are lazy,but want to be the top **** on the server. As you can see the limit is 3 boxes,but bots have obviously hacked around that. I mean they are already breaking rules so it's really just go big or go home at this point.
Oh ban them? Yeah they just create more accounts. The more adena on the server the higher the inflation on items. When the sellers know you have surplus adena the prices are jacked through the roof. So you see it doesn't matter,but drop rates are what encourages a healthy economy that all can enjoy. Bots however provide a service to those of us looking for things on the market. They are willing to run their toons 24/7 and sell you what they have for a price.
Increased drop rates will help it will give the bots more but it will also allow that toon that's struggling too gear itself sufficiently enhance his/her toon it's more of a win- win than a loose- loose for sure .
People bot because they are lazy,but want to be the top **** on the server. As you can see the limit is 3 boxes,but bots have obviously hacked around that. I mean they are already breaking rules so it's really just go big or go home at this point.
Oh ban them? Yeah they just create more accounts. The more adena on the server the higher the inflation on items. When the sellers know you have surplus adena the prices are jacked through the roof. So you see it doesn't matter,but drop rates are what encourages a healthy economy that all can enjoy. Bots however provide a service to those of us looking for things on the market. They are willing to run their toons 24/7 and sell you what they have for a price.
Either way bots win and legits never do.
What you define as win and what as lose?
If you define "lose" for legit players, the rapid farming that bots do, then gms could obviously throw ban hammers every now and then, and that could simple destroy boting. But this, i am sure, would destroy the total population of the game too. That is "lose" for legit players too, as a result.
Perhaps you disagree and i it's ok with me. Opinions are opinions. No-one can realy imagine what will happen, in case that witch-hunting for bots take place.
If you define "lose" for legit players that adenas can be bought, with real money, then the solution is simple. NC soft should allow boting for everyone. This way NC soft will reduce the chances, of people that will pay real money to buy adenas, down to zero, since anyone would have same chances to "go big" without suffer in manual grinding. However then, there will be a huge downfall of purchases, on items from NCSHOP, such as xp runes etc. This solution is a double-edged knife.
Having all this said, the only solution for all of us that we find pay-to-win immoral, is simply not to corroborate the "black market adena", by ignoring them. Also if we know people that are willing to buy adena with real money, take a couple of minutes to explain them why this is not a good option, as it corrodes the gameplay on the long run.
Solution is simple, though i don't support it and i couldn't, even if i want to ( i do not own credit card), but i think it's the only way, NCsoft should do exactly what bots do, sell X quantity of adena in L2 Store at the same prices or even lower that bots do, so, ppl who buy adena from bots will buy form NcSoft, and with that server mainteinance is payed, and then company and customer both happy. it will bring a lot of unbalaced freeling to ppl like us that play the game with not real money just as it was meant to be played, but it's a solution at least where NCSoft wins, and the customer too and still is labeled as "legit"
This is a endless argument and has been discussed countless times with endless suggestions. Obviously bot management lacks, always has and people despite rules will buy adena.
Obviously since drop rates have been nerfed it's harder to make adena and gear yourself which leads people to buy adena out of aggravation. I know that going into R95 is going to be difficult for me even,but I have dealt with this situation before in L2. You buy what you can,farm it or get it in a raid or a lucky donation. Or maybe an event comes along and you make some adena to buy what you need.
I see good and bad aspects of the L2 store selling adena packages. That would make the game 100% pay to win in my standards. As the drop rates are now the game makes it hard to generate instant income. L2 store selling adena would be a very enticing offer.
From a legit player point of view you can play a MMO in two ways.
Nº1 - The challenge/hardcore/Iwannabethebest way: In this case if a MMO suffers of lack of management or/and it security system is a ****, just like gameguard; its not a good option at all to play that game since your cheaters/RMT/bots enemies have much more chance to win. The problem resides in that this chance is made by non legit ways, killing the fun and making all the effort legit players put a complete waste of time.
Nº2 - The For fun/My friends/girlfriend plays here/I just want to relax after work/Im a game addict/this game looks fun way: In this case you can play more or less without trouble since you are not on a power rush to the top and you dont mind finding a bad, technically speaking, environment for the game.
I am part of both ways but since i found that here Nº1 problem is much more worse than Nº2 idea, i quitted.
Selling adena for NCoin would never work, it would have the same effect as if countries printed enough currency that everyone would be at least millionaire's, inflating said currency to the point it was no longer worth the paper it was printed on.
It's been tried in other MMO's and that was the end effect, player's just switch to a new form of currency they themselve's devise ingame, like in LoD where SoJ's became the base form, or Jade Dynasty where basic shop item's ( like L2's XP or SP runes ) became the base form. I never played EVE myself, but a friend said the same thing happened there as well, with the time card's themselve's became the currency to the point the company would accept the in game monetary system to buy the card's straight from them~~
Not that I ever botted or condoned botting in my L2 career, setting up a simple free to use bot for every player's use, and a more advanced one that you pay by time to use could actually work. It is in fact how most F2P MMO's actually operate ( Only one I myself played was Jade Dynasty, the free bot you earned = to time you were logged in playing, i.e. if Tom played live for 4 hour's, Tom got 4 hour's free botting, any extra you had to pay if you wanted it and I never even used either form of that bot~~ ),there's even a link about this on these forum's where some guy at some convention explain's it far better.
But in essence, doing that actually cut's down drastically on the illegal bot user's like 99 percent and to some extant the RMT market. Before GoD rolled out, I would have argued L2 is to unique to use this approach, but sadly L2 is now modeled almost exactly like those games ( game doesn't really start till 99, that's when you really start to gear up/spend time/adena on your skill's and really start to PvP ) he11, its even path based to 85 and you can pretty much do instances till end lvl just like any other F2P MMO out there, they may as well add in the one element they didn't take from those MMO's, the in game bot.
From a legit player point of view you can play a MMO in two ways.
Nº1 - The challenge/hardcore/Iwannabethebest way: In this case if a MMO suffers of lack of management or/and it security system is a ****, just like gameguard; its not a good option at all to play that game since your cheaters/RMT/bots enemies have much more chance to win. The problem resides in that this chance is made by non legit ways, killing the fun and making all the effort legit players put a complete waste of time.
Nº2 - The For fun/My friends/girlfriend plays here/I just want to relax after work/Im a game addict/this game looks fun way: In this case you can play more or less without trouble since you are not on a power rush to the top and you dont mind finding a bad, technically speaking, environment for the game.
I am part of both ways but since i found that here Nº1 problem is much more worse than Nº2 idea, i quitted.
I'm a No2 Player. idgaf about all the muck unless they KS my mobs.
I'm a No2 Player. idgaf about all the muck unless they KS my mobs.
Same for me. I see how people can afford to be on top and what they do to make the real cash. They sell items on other websites for real currency and turn that around to invest in adena or sell adena out right themselves and in turn use that in the cash shop.
Buying in game currency for real money, is that not what you do when you subscribe to a game?! Muuahhaa I think its the same as political lobbying....if I were rich I would buy every crooked politician I could and rule muuahahahhahaa!
Buying in game currency for real money, is that not what you do when you subscribe to a game?! Muuahhaa I think its the same as political lobbying....if I were rich I would buy every crooked politician I could and rule muuahahahhahaa!
I think J.P. morgan would just kill you if you tried.
Its a given that Dracha's comments are alway submitted in a effort to show some form of genius. Sadly, the best so far is that in the end, forumn pros like Dracha are what they are: Sadly lacking in any real life attempt to resolve any personal short-comings.
I enjoy most of what Dracha has to say, after all its all just an attempt at humor. Never take anything said by Dracha seriously. If you do your just buying into the ego-trip.
Its a given that Dracha's comments are alway submitted in a effort to show some form of genius. Sadly, the best so far is that in the end, forumn pros like Dracha are what they are: Sadly lacking in any real life attempt to resolve any personal short-comings.
I enjoy most of what Dracha has to say, after all its all just an attempt at humor. Never take anything said by Dracha seriously. If you do your just buying into the ego-trip.
Uhm who cares? Dracha has more useful things than most of the trolls posting.
Webistes is yesterday..
Now they use social media (aka FaceBook) to advertise and to promote their services.
Also I would like to state my personal experience:
I submitted tickets for someone (more than 20 names and exact locations) botting on GF and on Nornil's Cave
And provided info for possible rmt (powerlevel services).
RMT was later verified to me by a clan memer who indeed payed the guy that runs bot trains.
After receiving email to rate their support, I run at Nornil's to check the bot train.
The bot train was there still (exact same bots). Also the guys that used rmt service are now tagged.
Based on my experience and on the fact that this is happening for more than 10 years I can conclude that NCSoft doesn't fight rmt. RMT is part of the system.
Companies are often described as immoral organizations.
It's not always like that. But anyone can make his own conclusions on the matter.
You are not paying for the adena... you are paying for the collection and delivery of the adena.
This is very similar to the water (which you can get free) and electricity delivered to your home. It is a service, like most, for the lazy.
This is incorrect for multiple reasons.
1) You are paying for adena. Since you paying the seller for a very specific quantity of adena rather than a specific amount of time for the seller to go out and pickup adena drops for you then it is clear that you are paying for the adena itself. Even the advertisement that you are responding to makes it clear that you are paying for the adena itself. If the seller wanted you to think you were paying for the adena collection service rather than the adena itself they had the option of advertising in that way but chose to advertise for the sale of the adena itself. Another fact which lends credence to this argument is that the seller does not go out and begin collecting adena for you once they receive a payment, they simply transfer the adena that they already have to you immediately upon receipt and verification of your payment. Once again if they were selling adena collection services then you would be paying them for the time they were going to expend. You can't sell a service if you aren't performing a service.
While you can collect money for having performed a service after having performed the service, (for example someone might perform CPR on you after you've passed out and thereby saved your life) that service had to have benefitted the person you are trying to sell the value of the service to when you performed the service and that value had to have accrued to them regardless of whether they pay you after you perform it or not. If the person doesn't pay then they don't receive any adena, they don't accrue any benefit.
Just because you say you were only selling a service and not selling property doesn't mean it is true. It simply means you were confused about the nature of the actual transaction. Had you wanted to sell your service and not the adena you would need to have structured the transaction differently.
2) You cannot collect water or generate electricity for free. There are economic costs associated with collecting water and with generating electricity. The time that you'd have to spend collecting water instead of paying for the delivery of water is time that you could have spent working or on leisure activities. That time therefore has a value to you. Paying for someone else to deliver water to you is simply you making a rational choice about the value of your own time compared. And I would suggest that for many people living around the world, especially in cities or areas with polluted bodies of water or supplies of water that are not easily accessible or otherwise inadequate such as cities that use a toilet to tap distribution system, sufficient quantities of potable water are not available without sufficient knowhow to make the water potable, resources, or are simply not available in sufficient quantities because of the population density. Those people who still live in villages that have to go out and collect water every day have to devote a copious amount of time simply to collecting water. It is no surprise that those villages are not well off when they have to devote so much to such basic necessities as acquiring an adequate quantity of potable water.
Plus the entire concept and foundation of civilized life is based on the concept of specialization and trade. We each specialize in a certain area to become more proficient in that area. We can produce and consumer more as a society when we specialize and trade among people with other specializations for the things we want and need than when we have to each produce all the goods we consume ourselves.
Therefore buying water isn't lazy, its intelligent and necessary.
The analysis around electricity is essentially the same, as electricity requires some technical knowhow in order to produce and requires an adequate supply of resources in order to produce, resources which might be available in every region of the world and which need to be transported from one region to another. You can try digging for oil in your backyard, but I doubt you are going to find any. One could argue that you'd be able to make a bike out of wood, and then use that bike to turn a generator, however you'd still need magnetic material to make the generator and making that generator requires technical skills that many people simply do not have as well as access to metal supplies that many people don't have. Many Native Americans in North and Central America for example had no access to metals so they wouldn't have been able to generate electricity even if they had the technical skills that would have allowed them to do so. But they did have access to goods they could trade for electricity. Surely you are not going to say they were lazy if they went out out and hunted animals and the traded those furs they produced themselves for electricity?
3) When you have water/electricity delivered to you, well this isn't always true, but you are mostly paying for both the service and the product. Just look at your bill the next time you receive one. You will notice you are paying both a per gallon/KW rate, a delivery fee, and frequently a tax and possibly an additional fee for maintenance and possibly reimbursement for investment.
unrelated 4) Players do not have the capacity to earn adena in the quantities that the game requires. With the huge reduction in item drops (mats of all kinds, weapons, stones, etc) and huge reduction in adena drops everywhere without a compareable decrease in the cost requirements for things like SAs, augments, unsealing, r95/r99 gear from olympiad manager, players can't earn enough money from picking up drops to cover the costs they face to remain competitive. The only way that the entire game doesn't collapse in on itself right now is because players have stored up adena which will take some time to get through and bots keep the auction house supplied with a steady stream of adena. And that is the problem. The game as it is now has essentially been changed to both take into account and require the adena being produced by bots. It acknowledges that it has made it impossible for the players themselves to ever be able to acquire sufficient quantities of adena from only legitimate sources of adena (mob drops and daily quests).
And before you say become a reseller, you need to answer where all the money that is flowing around in the auction house comes from. If you say it is from mob drops and daily quests you are lying to yourself and the rest of the forums. If you say from bots you are correct. So even the reselling concept is only made possible because of bot money.