So, before reset I managed to have a little play on my summoner Dual.
Pet wise they do seem to hit pretty hard now with bloody bonus and crit damage in Servitor Share. Sadly as expected, epics still have very little effect on Pet DPS. Even with Servitor Share changes. Equipment Sharing only affects bloody/dark from the looks of it, but it's a nice boost.
As for the changes to DOTs.... WOW...
99 Wynn with 40k m.atk vs a 96 ISS with 4k m.def each Mark did over 30k damage over 10 seconds at +0. Even vs a target with triple that m.def you'd still be doing 10k+ damage per mark.
They're like mini nukes now, each tick seems to use the same formula as a nuke's damage.
Having tested them on HB mobs, I see no difference. One set of marks used to take a mob down to 50% hp, so does it now (or maybe it does even less dmg than before).
Mark of Void used to restore 3k hp over time, now it instantly gives 2k hp or so.
In the Oly, summoners used to do well against opponents with high MDef (tanks, healers, nukers). Now those good times are over, it seems.
Moreover, summoners are now forced to use a mystic's setup in order to be able to do at least some damage. I spent years developing a tanky playstyle for my summoner (using the same cheap warrior-type jewels that I use on my Iss while fighting melee classes), and now what I am left with?
Having tested them on HB mobs, I see no difference. One set of marks used to take a mob down to 50% hp, so does it now (or maybe it does even less dmg than before).
Mark of Void used to restore 3k hp over time, now it instantly gives 2k hp or so.
In the Oly, summoners used to do well against opponents with high MDef (tanks, healers, nukers). Now those good times are over, it seems.
Moreover, summoners are now forced to use a mystic's setup in order to be able to do at least some damage. I spent years developing a tanky playstyle for my summoner (using the same cheap warrior-type jewels that I use on my Iss while fighting melee classes), and now what I am left with?
What m.atk/gear setup do you have? Also did you have Bsps on?
I turned the DOT damage display on and in the arena I was doing about 700-1k damage a tick on Andouille, who has over 12k m.def. 15 ticks in 10 seconds for 4 marks makes that 42k damage! I was warrior AP and +10 marks then too, only 40k m.atk. I could easily get over 100k m.atk on my summoner switching APs, dyes etc.
In Dim warp I was doing about 2.5k damage a tick on mobs.
Considering the power of the old dots was 360 hp a tick I'd say it's a pretty big improvement.
99 wynn with mage gun,wizard harmony, robe set -> 97 ISS with 4,3k m.def.
Mark does 959 dmg/s
Same characters, but wynn with FB (S gr), knight harmony, L set (Oly setup)
Mark does 545 dmg/s
Still, this is +0 skills and then are more effective then the previous ones. We need to try olympiad to be sure, but so far I think there is no need of changing gear to offensive mage, because of this update (if You're oly farmer such as I am, not not PvP based player (as wynn lol)).
The only thing that struggles me is Mark of Void. As we are used to be simply full MP by doing nothing, this update, which recharge 300 MP each cast and not 3,5k per 10sec, may cause some problems. Or just first time in 3 years we will need at least to remember that blue line exist on this class.
Also, I'd like to know enchant effects on replace and summon cleanse, as it seems to be the miracle we're waiting for ages. As I do not have SP to even learn passives, I'd like to know the recovery effect of +10 these skills.
99 wynn with mage gun,wizard harmony, robe set -> 97 ISS with 4,3k m.def.
Mark does 959 dmg/s
Same characters, but wynn with FB (S gr), knight harmony, L set (Oly setup)
Mark does 545 dmg/s
Still, this is +0 skills and then are more effective then the previous ones. We need to try olympiad to be sure, but so far I think there is no need of changing gear to offensive mage, because of this update (if You're oly farmer such as I am, not not PvP based player (as wynn lol)).
The only thing that struggles me is Mark of Void. As we are used to be simply full MP by doing nothing, this update, which recharge 300 MP each cast and not 3,5k per 10sec, may cause some problems. Or just first time in 3 years we will need at least to remember that blue line exist on this class.
Also, I'd like to know enchant effects on replace and summon cleanse, as it seems to be the miracle we're waiting for ages. As I do not have SP to even learn passives, I'd like to know the recovery effect of +10 these skills.
What was your m.atk to get those damages? And did you have Spiritshots activated (Spiritshots affect the DOT damage).
Light might still be better than robe, but I can see going full out nuke setup being good. Essentially each mark now does a nuke with 110+ power every tick on the target.... why wouldn't you want to max out m.atk?
First of all I don't want to make an impression "my tactic is the best one" so...
The m.atk difference is more than 3 times, while dmg difference is more like 2 times. As we are not talking about 10-15k dmg/s I assume we can say this is not a big deal. Let me explain.
Mage tactic is not as bad as most people use to think. I, personally, till Lindvior update went to Olympiad with Vorpal Robe (PvP), rettributer and wizard harmony against all classes. (You can watch it by looking for eQueX wynn on YouTube). Most, if not all people said I will die in 2-3 shots, but c.speed and m.atk boost compensates loss of p.def and I had no trouble in defeating such a player as s7orm.
Still, after Lindvior I'm into defensive tactics simply because as I told You before, I do not prefer go PvP as a wynn, so my only point in game with this class is Olympiad. And in Olympiad nowadays most of the enemies has some debuff immune such as berserker/guts/purge/AoD etc. (I'm really concerned about Duelist Wrath, because if I understand that correctly, duelist may have permanent debuff immune in Olympiad and m.atk tactic (or ofc all mighty reflect) might be the only way to defeat them. But before that we have all the other classes which are only skill-based classes. I mean for me personally, there are no class which can make any trouble after they immune ends. And I prefer to believe this update won't change this. So in conclusion, if You boost Your mage statuses You end up missing every mark for the period of the immune Your enemy has and simply won't have survivability to show Your burst dmg after that. This is why I prefer defensive tactic over that. :)
First of all I don't want to make an impression "my tactic is the best one" so...
The m.atk difference is more than 3 times, while dmg difference is more like 2 times. As we are not talking about 10-15k dmg/s I assume we can say this is not a big deal. Let me explain.
Mage tactic is not as bad as most people use to think. I, personally, till Lindvior update went to Olympiad with Vorpal Robe (PvP), rettributer and wizard harmony against all classes. (You can watch it by looking for eQueX wynn on YouTube). Most, if not all people said I will die in 2-3 shots, but c.speed and m.atk boost compensates loss of p.def and I had no trouble in defeating such a player as s7orm.
Still, after Lindvior I'm into defensive tactics simply because as I told You before, I do not prefer go PvP as a wynn, so my only point in game with this class is Olympiad. And in Olympiad nowadays most of the enemies has some debuff immune such as berserker/guts/purge/AoD etc. (I'm really concerned about Duelist Wrath, because if I understand that correctly, duelist may have permanent debuff immune in Olympiad and m.atk tactic (or ofc all mighty reflect) might be the only way to defeat them. But before that we have all the other classes which are only skill-based classes. I mean for me personally, there are no class which can make any trouble after they immune ends. And I prefer to believe this update won't change this. So in conclusion, if You boost Your mage statuses You end up missing every mark for the period of the immune Your enemy has and simply won't have survivability to show Your burst dmg after that. This is why I prefer defensive tactic over that. :)
Oh I don't doubt your tactics for what you play for, my Wynn is my dual class, I like soloing on it and I also want to start setting up to use it for open PvP.
With just regular ISS buffs + Sonatas I had 40k m.atk. Tweaking my AP, gear and dual skills etc should put me at 80-90k or so with room for +15% p.def and ++ HP. With +10 marks (10% damage boost) I think those DOTs are gonna hit pretty pretty hard! :D
I'll do some tests to see how M.atk affects the DOTs. I know it's got a big effect on how hard they hit, but I'm not sure if it's the same as nuke damage or something different. Nukes need 400% m.atk to do 200% damage due to their damage calculation using a square root.
Actually I'm interested in Your weapon or dual class skill, because the difference of out M.atk is 15k and I have +5 R99 Caster (but +15 WIT)
I have a +9 Bloody Retributer, an M.atk circlet and some other goodies (30 day blessed valakas etc). +15 Str, though I may change that to INT/CON if I start pvping with my Wynn. At the time only +4% m.atk from dual skill and +6% m.atk from sub skills.
Another awesome thing..... Exile now works with DOTs again! At least it does in PvE anyway, not tested PvP.
Nice to hear that about exile, but so far it seems like exile has more ressists.
Also, if I understand it correctly, on +10 it will give 10% skill power, so it only changes 111->122. I believe thats not a big deal if it counts like that.
The thing that makes me happy is increased healing effect on summons.
Nice to hear that about exile, but so far it seems like exile has more ressists.
Also, if I understand it correctly, on +10 it will give 10% skill power, so it only changes 111->122. I believe thats not a big deal if it counts like that.
The thing that makes me happy is increased healing effect on summons.
Yeah, I noticed summons healed a lot more easily now. I've been soloing Dim Warp and it's soooooooo much easier now than before the update. Pre update it took me about 7 minutes to get down to 2 mobs, now I clear all the mobs in 5 minutes.
10% skill power is a direct 10% more damage. So if you do 1k damage a tick, that becomes 1.1k damage. 4 dots with 15 ticks = 60k damage, or 66k for +10. Every little helps.
Did not see much difference. Used my feoh equip.
Dark robe set +8, bloody retributer +11, Matk hat, +15 STR dyes, soul bauim+soul aq, 4 AP, 51k Matk.
Went into dim. warp, damage about the same, very low. Also had ruby and sapphire lvl 3 enabled.
Dual skill Matk/Patk lvl 4.
Did not see much difference. Used my feoh equip.
Dark robe set +8, bloody retributer +11, Matk hat, +15 STR dyes, soul bauim+soul aq, 4 AP, 51k Matk.
Went into dim. warp, damage about the same, very low. Also had ruby and sapphire lvl 3 enabled.
Dual skill Matk/Patk lvl 4.
It's the summons that kill in PvE, not the DOTs, though the damage boost is nice. I wouldn't call being able to clear stage 1 Dim in 5 minutes solo low damage, I'm pretty sure I can get it down lower with some more adjustments.
Did +1 on replace and mass cleanse. It shows that with 2nd enchant recovery power +2k. But the recovery effect from these 2 skills goes for summons, not char. Still, we can assume on +10 we will have 20k HP heal for both summons every ~13sec and 20k solo heal every ~30sec, which is nice.
Yesterday I was able to do some testing in Wynn Summoner (main class)
I'm not level 100 yet (Wynn Arcana Lord 99 here) and could make several duels against a Wynn Summoner level 100 (elemental master) and their new servitors.
Basically, we had the same equips, armor set R99 (no bloody or dark parts), same weapon R99 + 4, some differences in dyes, having only one raid boss jew and R99 jewells and the opponent with 4 raid boss jewels, pearl level 3. and my INT in 103, and the opponent 95. (Around 28k m.atk vs 25k m.atk with both wizard harmony)
Definitely the new servitors (in PvP) absurdly hits most than the old ones, being in the case of Unicorn cherub although the modest skills (in merit of description) still give a very high magic damage. The Unicorn Lancer itself has excellent skills, there is not much to be said, only to be praised.
Indeed, as has been said here, the DOT's make much difference in the character, I could receive damage from 700 to 1k per tick.
But not say precisely whether it would be really helpful to have enchanted the marks with power rather than chance.
More what worries me now is the fact that after years'll have to use Talismans of class-specific for Wynn Summoner (I mean MP recovery)
Terribly as MP regen is now and may be this will become a bigger problem in Oly.
Did +1 on replace and mass cleanse. It shows that with 2nd enchant recovery power +2k. But the recovery effect from these 2 skills goes for summons, not char. Still, we can assume on +10 we will have 20k HP heal for both summons every ~13sec and 20k solo heal every ~30sec, which is nice.
The enchants don't increase +2k a time, you get 2k heal at +1 then increases by small amounts to about 3.2k heal at +10.
I was testing the Mark damage yesterday and found some interesting facts:
Mark damage follows the damage for nukes, you need 400% m.atk to do 200% DOT damage etc.
Marks are not affected by element, pvp or pve bonuses.
Marks are directly affected by soulshot damage, including sapphire/oe bonus. Lvl 4 Sapphire gives exactly 12.5% more damage per tick.
Mark damage works in realtime, if your m.atk drops whilst a mark is on someone then the mark tick damage will drop also.
On my summoner with 71k m.atk, lvl 4 sapphire, +10 power marks landing 4 marks on a mob in hellbound will take it all the way to 0 HP, it will then kill it's self hitting me with reflect up. It's actually faster killing with Marks than it is sending my summons after them!
With just regular ISS buffs + Sonatas I had 40k m.atk. Tweaking my AP, gear and dual skills etc should put me at 80-90k or so with room for +15% p.def and ++ HP.
With Iss buffs/sonatas and wizards harmony my summoner's MAtk is under 20k.
This setup used to be good enough to defeat pretty much anyone in the Olympiad (except a handful of perma-heroes) but apparently it cannot help me kill a mob in the Dimensional warp. :(
I tried it with an Iss box, could not clean all the mobs at lvl 1 as it took me around 1 minute per mob in average. Low DPS, I guess...
Last weekend I did some matches on a summoner in the Oly, won 9 out of 10 but it left a bad aftertaste.
You see, just a few months ago I could easily beat a moderately geared healer. And when I faced well geared healers from top clans (including heroes from Nova etc.) I still won from them by damage.
Last weekend, I had to spend full 5 minutes for a healer from a pve clan (503k damage vs 46k), and I was never close to putting her down to 0 hp.
And in another fight an overgeared healer from a bot clan killed me within a few seconds.
If it was not the summoners' nerf, then what was it?
@Aconyte (http://boards.lineage2.com/showpost.php?p=3486097&postcount=17), that's mainly because @Ferine always "forget" to make it clear that, be playing healer or summoner, he's beyond the line to be called common or average, due to his massive worth-of-billions gear and L2Store consumption support. It still cracks me up that he even feel the need to black censor even some parts of his character gears in some screens posted in these sections - although I wont go swin in this lake of speculation that might pop up in our heads, anyway, so be it.
About the Oly part, you must keep in mind that the recent changes in marks functionality makes them a bit of nerfed if you r not heavily mage-setup stacked, since they gonna tend to be countered to high mdef enemies (like healers - your case, and feohs). If I understood it right, their dmg can be diminished/variable depending of how much mdef the target's opponent has at the moment.
M.Atk oriented boosts to Wynn Summoners always benefitted the rich and equipped more than the average joe, because prior to NCSoft pushing so hard for that Summoners benefitted very little from getting considerably better gear since all they needed to do was OE their weapon and stack Crit to Cap.
By pushing more damage off the Servitors and onto the Summoner you run into the same limitations as other classes IRT your character's capabilities due to massive gear disparity.
It is no longer possible to separate gear from tactics on this class, as has been the case in the past. Items have become more important. I think a lot of people sort of Liked Wynn Summoners precisely because they were so gear-independent compared to practically every other class in the game. It almost didn't matter what quality/class of gear you wore (generally speaking) as long as you didn't make any glaringly obvious mistakes like using a dagger for a weapon.
^ Yeah, you r right in this point and I've noticed this too. Wynn are no longer a non-expensive/cheap to gear class to play. While a player below 99 would have more efficiency in warrior setup (light armor, retri, dyes, buffs and jewels), he will get a totally world game changer at 99, where he will be forced to go into mage route (robes, dyes, buffs, jewels and AP) to keep up with all the new stuff and still be efficient at pvp and pve aspects.
And that's can be agravated when ppl realise how short of funds/money/resources new players r being pushed to be atm.