3,9/4 Wynns use range pets for raid bosses so it doesn't really matter if they use spectral link or not! The damage they do is so low so even with the +30% crit dmg won't be noticeable!
Range pets are good for k95 until raid boss and for first stage of Octavis.
Nothing else(PvE...olys is other story).
Please explain to me exactly why you come to this conclusion?
Try baylor with range pets and try again with close combat pets and enlighten me why wouldn't it be what I say.
Because I've tested the full buffed, non buffed and full buffed + SoS etc damage of ranged pets vs melee pets on my 100 wynn dual.
I'm guessing you're making assumptions because of n00dles QQing about the "Critical Damage Nerf"?
(Of course melee does have a slightly better overall dps, but the main thing is making sure you get Counter Critical, the amount of summoners who are complete idiots and keep at range away from the boss so it won't CC them, and don't use Rage or Transform, is stupid).
ranged pets have less atk speed, and crit multiplier 1.5, while close ranged pets have more atk speed and crit multi 2.0.
some wynns argue that it's better to use ranged, since they don't get stunned or hit, but that's what servitor blessing is for.
spectral link gives not only crit dmg, also crit rate and p.atak, L4 and L5 (plus cc) does give a kick.
I agree with the rest (as above) but the 1.5x crit damage stuff actually making a difference is just complete crap, I'm sorry.
If you check the damage of 100 melee vs 100 ranged summon next to each other you'll notice that the ranged summon actually crits for more damage than the melee summon in all situations. It's non-critical damage is also significantly higher for some reason.
So even with slightly lower atk speed the ranged pet's increased base damage makes it so there's not a huge dps difference.
I am a dark elf summoner 100 level on main, I try all pets I have had since GoD and I don't know how you come up to this conclusion.
Some pets are better for some use and others for other use.
No matter what anyone say Dark Crusaders are by FAR better in killing raid bosses than the ranged ones. I didn't create my char yesterday to be 100 in 10 days as most people. I tested gear after gear after gear to come to a conclusion based on personal experience.
Raiding summoner must be light armor and retributer and Close combat pets or to have A LOT of free time to waste.
Exceptions to this rule are: K95 until you kill all minions and then switch to close combat pets to kill Kalios and Octavis only for first stage.
I do k95 duo and if I try to do the raid with ranged pets it would take me 40+ mins to do! Now I am on 22mins.
My only QQ is for dark elf summoner ranged pets that don't have aoe skill as the soulless had. Only that.
I am a dark elf summoner 100 level on main, I try all pets I have had since GoD and I don't know how you come up to this conclusion.
Some pets are better for some use and others for other use.
No matter what anyone say Dark Crusaders are by FAR better in killing raid bosses than the ranged ones. I didn't create my char yesterday to be 100 in 10 days as most people. I tested gear after gear after gear to come to a conclusion based on personal experience.
Raiding summoner must be light armor and retributer and Close combat pets or to have A LOT of free time to waste.
Exceptions to this rule are: K95 until you kill all minions and then switch to close combat pets to kill Kalios and Octavis only for first stage.
I do k95 duo and if I try to do the raid with ranged pets it would take me 40+ mins to do! Now I am on 22mins.
My only QQ is for dark elf summoner ranged pets that don't have aoe skill as the soulless had. Only that.
I've had my Dark Elf Summoner Dual since GoD also and have been testing on the lvl 100 (not lower) pets dps.
As I described earlier, the ranged pets do greater base and (slightly higher) critical damage on the same mob as the melee pets do, but the do lack attack speed.
Over time the melee pets will do more damage but it's not a huge huge difference. The main thing is that you keep counter critical up and keep spectral link or transform.
Transform ... i used to do before i got the mass pet berserker and the spectral link.
About the other we said before, even though we seem to have similar experiences we came to different conclusions.
I even attacked my clanhall gatekeeper with full iss/self buffs and Dark Crusaders outperformed the ranged in everything!
For me its clear to where to use what pets.
What I would like to know is the difference between the similar pets of dark crusader of the other two races.
I even attacked my clanhall gatekeeper with full iss/self buffs and Dark Crusaders outperformed the ranged in everything!
Now that's what confuses me. I did the same test about a week ago, one with no buffs, one full buffed including PoM, link level 5, +12 Bloody Retri to make the biggest dmg difference possible....
The Ranged pets base dmg and Critical Damage was higher than melee in both situations (one range, one melee summoned at the same time to make sure both were buffed the same). Ranged did lack about 20% atttack speed vs melee, but IIRC crit rate was the same.
I did my tests on dps dummy in giran about two weeks ago when arcana lord friend of mine told me his findings, I don't trust npc at clan hall at all, will re-do my tests tonight and continue conversation, don't want to come back later correcting everything I said.
Thx Ferine on starting this, hopefully it will be productive conversation.
On that test crusaders out dps'd banshee by 30% more or less
For sure it will help us all if we can get more out of pets.
But again as I said before some pets are for some use and the other pets for other use.
I can't say i am fixed to be 100% on Dark Crusaders, I'd say i'm 90% Dark Crusaders and 10% ranged on my dailies.
As a test I would suggest try to do K95 solo. With same buffs from same buffer ofc all stages with aoe ranged pets and then on raid you get to choose 1 time mele and 1 time ranged.
I can't speak of dmg numbers cause I wasn't paying attention, I can only say the time it took me to finish it based on the time i had left.
Mele(on raid always) had be done in 16mins (all stages)
Range(Soulless on all stages and on raid boss Banshee) took me about 21 mins.
No transformation, always the macro for Spectral Link and mass pet bers on c/d if raid doesn't have rage on.
Perhaps we can ask Juji to make a lab test with proper geared summoner?
I'm not a fan of the training dummy npc, I've always found the results to be a bit random so I don't trust it at all.
The K95 test sounds more up my street, though would need an average of 2-3 runs per pet type.
The 100 melee pets are certainly the higher dps, the thing I question is how much higher DPS than the 100 range pets they are. I don't think it's that much of a difference as long as you keep CC up etc with both.
As someone said in the Helios thread.... how they gave the range pets higher base damage than the melee pets even though they both have the same p.atk is weird.
Indeed, re did my test last night, and came to same conclusion, per hit ranged hits for more.
Can't really figure out why exactly. If their damage type is *bow*, maybe npc's have less *bow* resistance then from melee :confused:
On other note, You Sir, have a +12 weapon, I have +4 r99 retri (dual class set for HP, as I usually run on my dual healer), and my summons are not so far of in p.atk from yours, 27000 p.atk (without cl buff), (but I'm guessing you didn't use servitor might, and have a robe set), that sets me off from investing into weapon on my wynn a lil bit :(
On other note, You Sir, have a +12 weapon, I have +4 r99 retri (dual class set for HP, as I usually run on my dual healer), and my summons are not so far of in p.atk from yours, 27000 p.atk (without cl buff), (but I'm guessing you didn't use servitor might, and have a robe set), that sets me off from investing into weapon on my wynn a lil bit :(
Actually I have a bloody leather set on, +15 STR and +P.atk SA on the Retributer. I don't have B.Valakas, Rose or stew though.
To be honest I made the +12 and sold my +8 and there's little difference that I've noticed. The main difference is from bloody, that's a MASSIVE boost.
Out of curiousity why do you keep the old transfer pain?
(Im assuming that is what it is)
Back when summoners could actually do ok in PvP it was better to keep the old transfer pain than the new one since 70% transfer would kill your pet too fast to heal it. So you take a bit more damage on main, but can survive longer since your pet would stay alive.
Of course my healer is far better for mass/solo pvp than summoner so I've not used it in a long time, or even tested whether keeping old TP is even still worth it. Need to re-test the cubic too.
I did K95 group test with my healer dual Wynn Elemental Master lvl100.
3x with melee pets Unicorn Lancer, it took 34-35 min per run.
3x with range pets Unicorn Cherub, it took 39-40 min per run.
This test is done with only my healer dual Wynn 100 and my box iss 99 (just standing in corner to keep sonatas on all the time).
Everytime I used the same gears from my healer and R99 Retributer +5, nothing special.
As far as I can see, melee pets did kill Kalios faster then range pets.
I did try to keep Critical up as much as possible and Elemental Link on at level 5 all the time, except when Rage was on then I kept healing servitors and casted marks when possible.
BTW, with Ferine's gears this test can be done less then 15min :p