Is the tank class agression skill in an urgent need of a major boost for PvE?
Nowadays the tanks loose the agression of raid boss to any damage dealer that deals over median damage.
The tank class isnt a crowd control class anymore that it once was ment to be.
What do the rest of the tanker community think?
I loved how aggresion (or taunt) work in SWTOR (star wars the old republic).
in PVE it forced monster to attack tank for 6 seconds, giving him 120% of highest current aggro.
On top of that, there were certain skills (and aura) that were producing 'extra 150% aggro' - for example.
Although the gear composition was a bit different, there were no +17 light sabres (last time I've played) or blasters, so tank built defensively (as he should) would easily (with a little brain power) keep doing 25% of DD's dps to keep aggro and not spam taunts on cool down.
In general, good (smart) tank rarely had to use taunt, three exceptions were:
1.'open burst' dd's who unleashed hell in first 6 seconds of their rotation
2.game mechanics where boss changed target on purpose as a part of a game scenario.
3. dd's went wild attacking random mobs (between RB's) and you have to save your healer from dying.
Tanking in SWTOR was fun, challenging but rewarding.
You were measured by your rotations, rarity of using taunts and on keeping your healer safe. Not by how shiny your sword /armour is.
You have basically either "boost me" or "I don't know" as the options.
Small Boost, Big Boost, The skill needs to hold aggro (implying it doesn't currently), or I don't know.
Please, if someone is going to make a poll, can you make a fair, unbiased one with a reasonable range of options. You just make a joke out of your whole argument.
Im not adding an option like "No boost needed" because then you have all kind of scrubs having fun scewing up the poll... and a boost is needed and everyone knows that.
Im not adding an option like "No boost needed" because then you have all kind of scrubs having fun scewing up the poll... and a boost is needed and everyone knows that.
If you accepted other peoples opinions instead of just trying to force your own then people may listen to what you have to say.
I agree with Ferine, also adding the word "need" gives me no real option. I think there are different tanking situations (mass pvp, small group pvp, raid boss, raid+minions, mobs crowd and single mobs) and a tank should know its role in each one.
We are great for raids with minions as its easy to keep their agro. Single raids are much harder to keep but we have other tools to decrease the dmg taken by the DDs and give consistency to the party
A boost is always welcome, but I don't find we actually NEED it
I think it's bigger problem about tanks and their aggro skills. Bosses have some strange behaviour against classes. I see it when I am doing stupid Kartia 95 group in different squads I have with my husband. When there is for example tank, iss and dagger in party - Kalios 95% of whole Kartia hits the dagger. When there is tank + iss only - Iss is main target for Kalios and on both examples - tank is almost completely ignored. On regular mobs - it somehow works but I wasn't on grind long time so don't know how is on new spots.
But there is one thing - for example K95 with Tyrr + Iss but Overlord - OL is completely ignored, while doing same K95 on same Tyrr but other Iss (Doomcryer) Kalios everytime after stun was chasing Iss :p so I think every class has some hidden aggro stat and tanks even with skill aggro spam when it lands on boss it does not force boss to attack tank. So something is really broken but who knows what? :p
Being a tank, i do think the agro skill should be slightly improved. The agro power isn't even the main issue when we talk about the problems of agro in tanks. The number of monsters affected and the range of it that is the biggest issue when it comes to aoe tanking right now.
Giving a LOC pit as an example:
A tyrr can pull all mobs, either in number or in range in a pit. (counting when you kill those extra ones when you kill horns)
A tank can pull maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of them and only with a limit range.
To me that doesn't make sense, why is it a tyrr that is designed to be a DD a better "tank" then the actual tank?
The only reason for this to be like it is is may be the mass pvp, but i think it might be possible to implement a solution where the limit of ppl affected by it (in this case Aggression Aura) is different on PVE and PVP.
I agree with Ferine, also adding the word "need" gives me no real option. I think there are different tanking situations (mass pvp, small group pvp, raid boss, raid+minions, mobs crowd and single mobs) and a tank should know its role in each one.
We are great for raids with minions as its easy to keep their agro. Single raids are much harder to keep but we have other tools to decrease the dmg taken by the DDs and give consistency to the party
A boost is always welcome, but I don't find we actually NEED it
I find tanks need a hell of a boost, just mostly in PvP. As their ability to mitigate damage and actually take hits has not even remotely kept up with boosts in damage that other classes have received over the last several updates.
In PvE it's not really a boost needed so much as relevance to their play style.
Most things in game have no need of a tank, because what a tank offers is simply a mediocre melee damage dealer and nothing more. This is especially true with instances being the main deal right now for XP.
I think it's bigger problem about tanks and their aggro skills. Bosses have some strange behaviour against classes. I see it when I am doing stupid Kartia 95 group in different squads I have with my husband. When there is for example tank, iss and dagger in party - Kalios 95% of whole Kartia hits the dagger. When there is tank + iss only - Iss is main target for Kalios and on both examples - tank is almost completely ignored. On regular mobs - it somehow works but I wasn't on grind long time so don't know how is on new spots.
But there is one thing - for example K95 with Tyrr + Iss but Overlord - OL is completely ignored, while doing same K95 on same Tyrr but other Iss (Doomcryer) Kalios everytime after stun was chasing Iss :p so I think every class has some hidden aggro stat and tanks even with skill aggro spam when it lands on boss it does not force boss to attack tank. So something is really broken but who knows what? :p
This is some weird affect with certain bosses.
I have soloed/duoed all kartias with multiple characters. You can do the whole instance with one DD, have him in the boss room attacking the boss and log in an ISS/Healer into the first room... the boss will beeline straight for the healer/iss and end up hugging the door, even though the character hasn't been in the room at all and has never hit the boss, it may not even be in the same party!
It might explain why I've never really noticed any issues with tank hate, some bosses are programmed to attack certain classes regardless, those aren't ones I usually do with a tank.
I agree with the agro range. I'm a Dreadnought and I constantly laugh at a tank that pulls in AOE. Its so tiny and cute range, and then I use Provoke and pull 3x the area he does. I think that the Tyrr Power Provoke (900 Range) (97+ skill on all Tyrr) needs a slight nerf for distance, tank mass hate range (600 range) needs to be improved to the same distance Power Provoke is now. Dreadnought Provoke (1500 range iirc) I think is fine as we were ment to be the ultimate melee AOE DD.
Also with agro strength(?) if you want to call it that, I think it needs at least a PvE update. As a slightly above average geared Tyrr I can't remember a time in K95, K99, Baylor, or CC where I didn't have agro 100% of the time over the tank. This shouldn't be the case. I think if a tank skill lands they should have 100% chance to get agro at least while the debuff is up, ofc that would require some tweeking all the mobs too to increase resistance to agro so that debuff didn't land 100% of the time and not full duration 100% either. On the other hand there are instances when it is impossible for me to pull agro off the tank, for instance; AF instance, Tavern, and Gludio(most times). So I'm not sure if I do all the lower instances with "lesser" tanks or the game mechanics are weird when it comes to those.
I have soloed/duoed all kartias with multiple characters. You can do the whole instance with one DD, have him in the boss room attacking the boss and log in an ISS/Healer into the first room... the boss will beeline straight for the healer/iss and end up hugging the door, even though the character hasn't been in the room at all and has never hit the boss, it may not even be in the same party!
It might explain why I've never really noticed any issues with tank hate, some bosses are programmed to attack certain classes regardless, those aren't ones I usually do with a tank.
Exactly same here :) Kalios licks doors when he smells someone in 1st room - doing this for example when I making K95 group on my summoner, hitting him solo and he hits summons but stay close to doors - can't lure him even in center of room... So this can be something with mobs/bossess settings maybe, not with classess and their damage done cause I think aggro here is not working here like in WoW for example (when I had to turn on aggro addon to not overaggro boss)
Tank should be able to hold agro of raidboss, end of discussion.
Im not saying 100% agro all the time, but they should be able to atleast GET THE AGRO
Why people are even arguing about this im not sure, tank is completely useless these days in any kind of PVE.
For grinding, tyrr is better in 99% of scenarios, longer range of pulls and can tank just as good as a tank.
For bosses, tank never actually hold agro of the boss, just useful to give party solidarity & 101 aura, occasional rescue skill if required (which is only required like 1 time out of 10)
If you accepted other peoples opinions instead of just trying to force your own then people may listen to what you have to say.
I accept other ppls opinions but in this case, how would it be bad to anyone possible if the tank could hold the agro?
But maybe you can see a scenario where it would be a con.
There are a few things I noticed during the 11 years I played tank.
Stun effect to a raid boss may cause it to randomly change target for a breief moment for example. That might me the end of the CC session.
If you take a Tyrr that deals more damage than one tank agression over 10 seconds its ovbious it will take aggro.. The aggression skill doesnt even have 100% chanse of landing. Actually its only a 40% certaincy.
Especially on raids, where damage is dealth over a longer periode, a very stacked DD will keep the aggro in defent. The tank can take a scroll to town if there isnt any minons to CC. The healers Celestial with its far superior reuse time, will replace both the tanks party UD aswell as the Party Resuce skills, and chain galaxy skills doesnt work on raids.
Also agree, I envy the range of Tyrr aggro XD
I dont agree. The idea behind the tyrr provoke skill is just a provoke, A very small amount of power just enought to collect the mobs.
It was great for soloing Dreads, but was later on tranfered to all tyrr classes.
The combo of the tyrrs provoke, superior damage, high P.def, HP, CP and revival skills makes the Tyrr the ultimate tank class.
The combo of the tyrrs provoke, superior damage, high P.def, HP, CP and revival skills makes the Tyrr the ultimate tank class.
Which is where Korean Devs went completely wrong just to appease the Tyr player base they doomed the majority of the PVE playing Tanks and this will only get worse in the upcoming update where Tyrs get even more "tanky"..
PVP wise Tanks are getting a boost in the sense that they will get more Archer resist/shield blocks & defense but PVE wise it's becoming a sad story..
ppl farm all open field raids with just titan or an evi and same with most instances, the most popular PVE tank is an unawaken SK for the trigger buff lolz..
The Dev team just need to put the logic back in place that raids/party mobs areas become lethal if no awaken Tank is part of the killing force, fix the aggression skills that they land & hold agro in PVE and shorten the re use time on our UD's.
Tanks are highly depend on party play and right now they're being made more and more obsolete so if none of the above is fixed give Tanks better "solo" play capacity and improve their PVE DPS.
In fact the Tank lost his utililidade a long time, NCsoft do not know balance classes, the Tank with the Iss are the classes that cause less damage, the advantage of Iss are in their skills to survive meanwhile Tank suffers, it is a class that reflects kill for, but created several items to be used which reflects decreases to attack an enemy. Increased P. Defense Wizard all classes, and today Tank does not win even a Healer Aero, which in addition to high defense, has several skills to stay alive, mana burn, debuff, and also has high damage. Today people are denied in Tank party, whether to Kartia 95 is to Bailor and so on. See, NCsoft gave much defense for all classes, then the party now leave aside the Tank why it's negligible damage, and can be replaced by a Tyrr Warrior, or even a well-equipped Aero Healer.
People think we Tank over power, max want a consistent class, even today archer throws a tank with ease, especially after they left mighty bowman, and removed the resistance of the arrow Tank's skill. Ie Tank has lower defense Tyrr Warrior, HP has less than Tyrr Warrior and minor damage Tyrr Warrior and skill causes the Tyrr Warrior is better than the aggression of Tank. The Tank's skills can be ignored, say so, when using, the enemy can keep running and running, they are skills to increase defense and increases reflect, but can be ignored because the damage the tank to is weak, the skills of the tank are those with the greatest reuse, most takes 15 minutes to be used, the skill Ignore Death takes only 10 seconds and has a 30 minute reuse, while the other class your skills take on average 10 minutes, 5 minutes. That why NCsoft said that would make the Tank geared more for PVP, but do not see it, today no one needs Tank to party, to quest in groups, because even Healer holds a party in good.
Playing as a tank from lvl 85-94 I've noticed it's not possible to maintain aggro on Raid Bosses. As a result the class is unable to function in it's primary role. For example: Just yesterday a healer kept getting agro from K90 boss and despite my best attempts at spamming aggression skills, the boss never so much as turned around. The healer just ran around and didn't even use skills. This is embarrassing for me and is detrimental to the appeal of the class.
As you know enjoyment = spending money. So please correct this by adding more power to the aggression skill or changing the behavior of raid bosses so they respond accordingly. What's the point of having high defense if the game doesn't present an opportunity to use it?
The only time I find value is at the very first aggression pull, but once the aggro is lost I can't get it back!
This is a multi-faceted issue that I will try my best to list out first, then address 1 by 1, then maybe come up with a plausible solution:
Tyr provoke is significantly larger range than AoE Hate. This performs the function of bringing mobs into a general area. You could argue that it's complimentary to tank's smaller AoE which would refocus the aggro back on tank; while true takes away 1 of tank's jobs, which was to pull mobs.
Feoh has skill that stacks mobs into 1 point. This overlaps with Tank's chain hydra, which has a smaller AoE (but can pull from further away), and a *much* longer reuse.
Hate works on normal mobs, but not on raids. In one of the updates (I forgot which), they nerfed hate's power but added the debuff element to it, where it's would lock it's target to the tank. The debuff's duration is less than the skills cooldown to avoid perma locking (if the debuff lands every time, which it doesn't). This is completely broken for raid bosses, who ignore this debuff complete even if it lands.
The age old Attack vs Defense disparity. Offensive power has many ways of being boosted in this game, while defensive power has limit options. For classes like tanks, which pretty much rely on defense, this is a huge disadvantage.
Topaz. Bypassing defensive stat completely is bad. This was clearly demonstrated in C2, when dagger stabs bypassed pdef. It just doesn't work. Make it a 100k power skill, or whatever, but make defensive stats matter.
Sorry I went abit out of scope.. :P but here are possible solution(s) for hate (pick any combination):
- make it work on raids
- Increase cooldown slightly
- massively increase landing rate
- make the debuff similar to stuns where it can be broken by hits. But make it like archer stuns <_< where it's harder to break (unlike tank stuns.... which break *super* easily)
- make hate disable skills over it's duration, would then need to either reduce duration, reduce land rates or make it cancelable on damage taken like stun
For chain hydra (pick any combination):
- decrease cooldown
- increase aoe size
- decrease landing rate for feoh version, and/or re-do the mechanics so it doesn't cast several times over a duration, but only cast once instead. Or make it a channeling spell...
I think improving just those 2 skills would make tanks relevant again, without completely overpowering them (hate would affect mass pvp, but not 1v1 scenarios like oly)
the target lock effect of agro only works on pvp, iirc that change was on 1 of gracia updates...
other thing that they add on an update pre-GOD was a skill or effect on raids that make them change target (i guess it was bcoz raiding was just too easy on that time...)
then in some GOD update ncsoft nerfed agro skill adding to it the posibility to fail XD, coz it was overpowered in pvp, the problem is they nerfed it in pvp and pve...
but... you know, i think the aggresion skill is not too bad...
i think the thing is not working properly is the whole agresion system...
since GOD update i remember raids sometimes change their target usually to the party member with lowest defences, and some times it was just impossible to change their target...
now it seems to be more random or just weird like Xernn said...
for example when i leveled my dual (tyr gk) i usually always got the "aggro" even when i wasn't doing the max dps in the party...
so i think they need to do a rework in the whole aggro system instead of boost the skill...
Get agression at least +10 chance
After cast agression cast lj and cg, both land almost always and increase agro. Get 500 crt rate ( this is very easy). If you can get 10k patk at least with knight.
But yea agro should be boosted. Before, challenge aura boost agro skills, they should keep that effect or put it on char base. I think all can be fix with modify the passive sword blunt skill that add agression to you. Now is 60%, It shoul be increase and affect agression power. That way it will add to tank the capacity to hold agro easily in pve and 0 impact on actual pvp. I don't have to much problem keeping agro cause i don't hit that bad and of the enchant/ usage of others debuff when the agro self buff is on. Also rampage shield helps keep agro on to reach 13k-14k patk on knight. With lol gear it can help you reach 9k-10k patk wich i have realize generate the same agro as normal dd with the " agro boost " off agression post skill use, passive agro and true vanguard.
I still don't try dual phyz trait if it improves agro land rate, maybe it does, if someone has it will be nice if he/she shares that intel...
pool is fail but i agree with opinion that tank agro on pve should be boosted, i play as tyrr and 60% of time i am in party with tank all agro iss on me, and 20-30% agro is on other dd. tank in our pt hold agro like 10-15% of time. in some instances like mystic tavern tank can hold agro pretty good but only till we start to hit mob because he holds agro of other mobs around it but cant hold the one others are focusing and if some yull or feoh starts to use hard aoe tank loses agro most of the time. on boses tank holds agro for first 10 seconds and then some dd takes it away, so only place where tank can hold agro is when farming mobs in fields but most of time he can hold agro is because mobs dyes faster than someone takes agro from tank, so overall tank agro need atliest a little boost on pve to be more useful and act like real main tank, and not as support player like it is now in most cases
Now I figure why noone is playing tanks anymore, atleast only 14 possible tanks that voted to this that reads the official forums.
Sad story :(
It's a vicious cycle: Tanks are the worse class in PvE -> Less tanks -> Not enough people to complain -> No action -> Tanks get left behind :<
Other classes that suffer the same fate: Fortune Seekers, Maestros :(
Even buffers have been "fixed" to a certain extent, at least they're *needed* in party, whether boxed or not <_< (live played ISS is very beneficial to party due to their debuffs, -40% pdef/mdef is *massive*)
Another alternative... is to make tank friendly solo XP areas:
- High ranged damage (tanks block arrows well)
- Low HP/Low Pdef
- High resist to ranged attacks (so archers/summoners will not take this area from tanks! :P)
- High Mdef (ditto for nukers)
That would be a quick fix to tank's xp problems, without needing to adjust game mechanics :/
Another potential boost for tanks... but would be a nerf to everyone else (Except tyrrs) make HP herbs %-based o.o Glass cannons are not punished enough (or at all) in PvE.
Some other ideas for game mechanics changes, in no order and in no specific combo:
- make attacks interruptible, like spells are. Stat that increases resistance to interrupts: CON, similarly to how MEN should affects spell cast interruption rate (This is potentially a big change for slower attacking classes like titans and archers...)
- reintroduce shield block interrupts, but add skills like: retaliate - chance to deal damage on shield block. This would introduce a new type of tank build, where he can completely turtle up and let attackers kill themselves. Would also make tanks more interested in mass pvp: do you *really* want to hit that tank? Right now most DDs just continue to attack the tank, and if tank does not have UD up, he's minced meat anyway. This shield block attack would also be beneficial to accrue aggro on mobs in PvE
- a shield charge skill, charge into a target point, knocking enemies aside (possibly slowing them for a short duration?) and stunning enemies within target area (sorry, I stole this idea from other games XD). This helps tanks with mobility, and shield charge is a pretty cool tank-archtype skill XD
Note: this thread isn't about other classes :P Ofcourse tanks will be biased and want the best skills...etc. We just want comments on the viability of the suggestions, and tweak it accordingly. And *maybe* someone in power at NCSoft will see it and consider it o.o
It's a vicious cycle: Tanks are the worse class in PvE -> Less tanks -> Not enough people to complain -> No action -> Tanks get left behind :<
Very true words there...
Tank is the less usefull class in PvE. I tried the most +16 agression skills and spam spam, reflect damage. Its a sad story also that I dont Think NCsoft even read the Forum Discussion areas to pickup customer feedback.
Tanks really are not tanks anymore. It would be so easy to balance the classes overall for this matter but instead the Korean Developer team screw things up by nerfing classes in blindfold.
1. Tank Aura = OP: Various auras of tanks are just too good, especially the Rage Aura = -20% Target P.&M. attack damage, -20% Target Attack speed&casting speed. It's basically the same as Shadow Attack skill of an Iss enchanter. Compared to old school tanks where they had to fight to keep their aggro, the NEW awakened tanks have much easier time doing their job.
They protect the party just by being there! LOL!
Let me illustrate this point by giving you an example.
I had Othell Adventurer LvL85 and a healer LvL 85, both went into K85 with newbie buff. Othell wasn't really geared, just TW+4 and Apo+4 dual dagger, no Longing, no Jewels but just the basics.
Guess what? With just ONE BIG AOE shot by Zellaka, othell lost 90% HP and got the undying buff already, and when the next BIG shot came...Othell died...
2nd time I went in with the same Othell + Iss enchanter(instead of a healer.) Big AOE shot came but this time, othell had about 50% HP left which I healed easily with the ISS enchanter. The difference? the Shadow Attack Debuff on the boss, -40% P.&M. attack damage.
Now... I added tank to the same duo, and it was just too good. With the presence of rage aura Othell only lost 20% HP!
2. Maybe it's the tanks' weapons that need to get better. A lot of times at KAMA, I see tanks losing aggro to DD all the time but here is something to think about... There are DDs with Ruby LvL4, Opal LvL4, Longing, 6+ elemental shirt, +14 Venir talisman, AQ, Baium...etc.+++whereas most tanks have got the standard +3 or +4 weapons...sometimes...apocalypse...
I know tanks have the Aggro boost passive skill based on the weapon damage, but still most tanks need to upgrade their weapons too... to keep up with the DDs with Bloody weapons! Most situations I see are something like...+12 Bloody vs +3 Apocalypse 1SA(Health) with 150 elemental...
Tanks should have Epic jewels and other accessories that cater only to tanks which improve their aggro maintenance skills. They could also create brooch jewels, special armor SA or augments for tank classes that are situational, i.e., can only be used during raids. It's too much work for developers probably, but it would be a good way to make tank classes better and more fun for people who like tweaking their characters. It would also be cool if ISS and Healers were given a Force or other party toggle skill that increases the Tank's hate/aggro skills. Nothing OP, just something that nudges tanks a bit closer to being what they were designed to be, meat shields.
1. Tank Aura = OP: Various auras of tanks are just too good, especially the Rage Aura = -20% Target P.&M. attack damage, -20% Target Attack speed&casting speed. It's basically the same as Shadow Attack skill of an Iss enchanter. Compared to old school tanks where they had to fight to keep their aggro, the NEW awakened tanks have much easier time doing their job.
They protect the party just by being there! LOL!
ISS mass shadow blade - -40% patk/matk & damage (14608 power at lvl 85, 22784 at lvl 99)
Rage aura - -20% patk/matk & -20% atkspd/castspd
Shadow blade effective reduction in DPS: -40%
Rage aura effective reduction in DPS: -36%
Mass shadowblade cooldown (with refreshing only): 6.3s
Rage aura debuff recast cooldown (estimate): ~5s, depends
As you can see, the 2 are comparable, rage aura is always on, but there is a delay, and it *can* be resisted just like any other buff.
Shadow blade has damage, rage aura does not.
Single sword normal hit DPS < Dual sword normal hit DPS
ISS will almost always out damage a Tank, even discounting the use of crippling blow (-40% pdef/mdef...)
Tank has shield charge (-10% pdef, -2 evasion, +10% crit damage)
Tanks also have 2 skills that do not do anything to bosses:
- Justice Punishment "Attacks target with 20451 Power added to P. Atk, and P. Atk./M. Atk. - 20%. Blocks the use of magic skills. Requires a sword or blunt weapon to be equipped. Over-hit. Critical."
- Shield impact "Attacks target with 11253 Power added to P. Atk. and Stuns for 5 seconds. Can be used while a shield is equipped."
Because bosses have 100% resist to stun and silence, which also affects damage done by those skills, i.e. they do 0 damage.
Now you may go "see? it's fair!" Now... please look at what other things ISS offers:
- 40% more damage via cripping blow
- Buffs, which increase the entire party's strength significantly (I don't have a figure, but it's in the range of 10 times stronger, offensively and defensively)
- Heals (not going to be used often, but it's there)
- devil's movement
- ...etc
Of course tanks also have their own set of benefits, my argument is that they are *underpowered*, not completely useless.
Let me illustrate this point by giving you an example.
I had Othell Adventurer LvL85 and a healer LvL 85, both went into K85 with newbie buff. Othell wasn't really geared, just TW+4 and Apo+4 dual dagger, no Longing, no Jewels but just the basics.
Guess what? With just ONE BIG AOE shot by Zellaka, othell lost 90% HP and got the undying buff already, and when the next BIG shot came...Othell died...
2nd time I went in with the same Othell + Iss enchanter(instead of a healer.) Big AOE shot came but this time, othell had about 50% HP left which I healed easily with the ISS enchanter. The difference? the Shadow Attack Debuff on the boss, -40% P.&M. attack damage.
Now... I added tank to the same duo, and it was just too good. With the presence of rage aura Othell only lost 20% HP!
If you actually tried to learn game mechanics even a little, you'd know that neither shadow blade, nor rage aura would do much to reduce skill damage.
It is much more likely that the skill crit on the othel the first time, the 2nd time it crit but because of live ISS buffs (real sonatas are stronger than newbie bufff ones) and shadow blade, you survived the crit. And the 3rd time you did not get crit.
Also you need to have elemental resists to survive much in L2. Even the basic 60/60/60 on each piece is a lot better than nothing at all. It's insanely cheap to get 60/60/60 on amour...
A normally geared (appropriate grade amour and weapon, at least 60/60/60 on armour pieces) 4 man kartia parties have *zero* need for tanks, in fact that same 4 man party would lose XP/hr if they added a tank to the group. (This may not apply for K99, I haven't tried it...)
2. Maybe it's the tanks' weapons that need to get better. A lot of times at KAMA, I see tanks losing aggro to DD all the time but here is something to think about... There are DDs with Ruby LvL4, Opal LvL4, Longing, 6+ elemental shirt, +14 Venir talisman, AQ, Baium...etc.+++whereas most tanks have got the standard +3 or +4 weapons...sometimes...apocalypse...
I know tanks have the Aggro boost passive skill based on the weapon damage, but still most tanks need to upgrade their weapons too... to keep up with the DDs with Bloody weapons! Most situations I see are something like...+12 Bloody vs +3 Apocalypse 1SA(Health) with 150 elemental...
I had my +3 apoc cutter with HP and crit and 300 holy on it, DDs with the free immortal gear takes aggro from me when doing bosses (they ignore normal aggro rules). It's usually fine with normal mobs, only insanely geared people take aggro from me.
My lvl 92 archer takes aggro from a lvl 99 tank in full r99 gear (and longing, and several other talismans), I only have a +4 shadow thrower...
In addition to having to have the best armour possible to tank properly, you want tanks to have some insane weapon?
If anything, you've illustrated how offensive oriented this game is, hence tanks not being needed *most of the time*.
I am only responding to counter your claims, so bad information is not spread to the public....
people who base their judgements on the game play and classes purely on Kartia/Kama are not to be taken seriously as that's not even remotely covering 20% of how things work..
and I'm not even saying anything about how the classes/game balance gets at end game level..
Populus...first you are low lvl tank! Second, dont make comparation between ISS and Tank..diferent role, diferent game play, diferent everything...like comparing aples with pears.
I told you guys about bragging chars in other posts(regarding othel and yulls) ...same happend with tank. Tank agresion was op few years ago ...all mighty tanks post theyr vids and yell how good they are...result was a modification of skill in "have a chance". Ofc Tank is useless now....
But, i see high lvl tanks who deal a lot of damage...and survive long time in PVP...A solution for you will be like:
1. get min 101 lvl, 16 Ap, +6 r99 heavy, +12 r99 2 SA wep or Tauti blunt
2.open your wallet and pay like 500 usd for NcStore items
Now about ISS build:
1.req duals + appereance to look good; 2 health SA, no shots
2.Tw heavy + appereance to look good+some cooldown jewels
3.Mistic ...no BR
4.2 bil to enchant sonatas and stuff...end.
But, i see high lvl tanks who deal a lot of damage...and survive long time in PVP...A solution for you will be like:
1. get min 101 lvl, 16 Ap, +6 r99 heavy, +12 r99 2 SA wep or Tauti blunt
2.open your wallet and pay like 500 usd for NcStore items
those high level tanks have like 5x better gear then what you list there, that gear just makes a tank a 3 shot instead of a 2 shot for 101 archers atm, just saying..
ps, 500$ will not change that fact.. gonna need mucho more then that lol
Let me start saying that when I go to Kamaloka 99 with my Evi, I easily drawn aggro from the tank and I have the boss on me all the time. I don't have ubber weapon or armor, but I have a regular 99 fist +9 with 2 SAs. Not bloody, not dark.
I see the tank using aggression and aggression aura all the time, but the boss is one me at least 80% of the time. Now, tank using aggression and aggression aura has a lot on effect on minions which target the tank and helps a lot. But, again, I have the boss on me.
I've been in parties with tanks using +10 chance on aggression and that seems to help better. If I have a tank with +10 chance on aggression, he has the boss on him/her most of the time (if using aggro non-stop) until I use steel mind and then boss goes on me.
When playing my dual (tank), I noticed I was not controlling aggro when doing Kama99, and I was using aggro whenever was available. Several parties rather prefer a Tyrr instead of a tank because of this.
At 99 I did not have skills enchanted, so I had no choice other than enchant aggression to +10 (both). This way, I was able to have better control of the boss on me and be useful in parties.
Of course, we have some DDs with awsome +++ and bloody weapons and it is matter of time before the tank loss control again.
As far pvp, that is a gray area and we can go over and over.
TERA Online, had a skill on tanks (called Lancers) that is equivalent to the aggression aura (mass aggression) that will lock the target on the tank your for 3 seconds. Now, that is a nice crow control.
Tanks, honestly, are useless in sieges because with several top clans using scripts, you can use aggression aura and it takes milliseconds for them to re-target their target. It will be nice if aggression aura could lock target on the tank for 1-3 seconds at least. It will serve the purpose of the tank in my opinion.
Not for bosses :< they ignore the debuff even if it lands. It *might* attack the tank for a second or 2, but if it's in the middle of an attack animation or casting a skill or running off to hit a ranged/healer, then that debuff does jack all.
The above observations are for Kartias, as I mentioned aggression works fine on regular mobs, it just that pre-99 content does not require tanks at xp locations because the mobs hit like pansies... except maybe EG, but then soloing at other locs yield better xp, so why would ppl do EG other than the quick 30min to do quest?
Populus...first you are low lvl tank! Second, dont make comparation between ISS and Tank..diferent role, diferent game play, diferent everything...like comparing aples with pears.
I told you guys about bragging chars in other posts(regarding othel and yulls) ...same happend with tank. Tank agresion was op few years ago ...all mighty tanks post theyr vids and yell how good they are...result was a modification of skill in "have a chance". Ofc Tank is useless now....
But, i see high lvl tanks who deal a lot of damage...and survive long time in PVP...A solution for you will be like:
1. get min 101 lvl, 16 Ap, +6 r99 heavy, +12 r99 2 SA wep or Tauti blunt
2.open your wallet and pay like 500 usd for NcStore items
Now about ISS build:
1.req duals + appereance to look good; 2 health SA, no shots
2.Tw heavy + appereance to look good+some cooldown jewels
3.Mistic ...no BR
4.2 bil to enchant sonatas and stuff...end.
See..aples and pears :)
I wasn't the one comparing, I just wanted demonstrate to Dreamseeker and to list out things that ISS does that is comparable to tanks, since he claims that Tanks are better than ISS.
Also, I'm not sure why people are commenting about how having tanks being a required aspect of a party is such a bad thing.
How is it different to ISS and Healers being required? Or in fact how DDs are required for a party to function effectively? :/
This is exactly the viscious cycle I was talking about:
1) GoD Change: Tanks are needed for effective parties
2) Severe lack of tanks...
3) People whine about lack of tanks
4) Instead of helping level up more tanks, they ask to not need tanks at all in party
5) NCSoft complies....
6) Tank population remains low...
wtf... The exact reason for the lack of tanks is because selfish DDs don't want to "help level yet another support class". Please, try fighting with self buffs only and no heals, you'd realise how bloody *weak* you are without support classes.
Tanks should be a part of the entire equation, not some left out remainder that you can round off without caring. I don't want some OPed ****, but at least make it so tanks are *desirable* to have in parties, and not treated like a leech...
Again this is for sub-99 content, and while you DDs may not have much complaints about soloing to 99... tanks really cannot do it without going insane... I almost stopped at 94, after 90% soloing it, some clannie finally pitied me and helped me get an entire level in 5hrs (some people even said it could've been faster), it took me 6 months to get to 94 from 90.
Not for bosses :< they ignore the debuff even if it lands. It *might* attack the tank for a second or 2, but if it's in the middle of an attack animation or casting a skill or running off to hit a ranged/healer, then that debuff does jack all.
you didn't read my first commentary right?
so again... target lock effect from agresion skill only works on pvp.
is not the bosses ignore the debuff, it just dont affect non-player characters.
now, if they just could get rid of the old aggression system and just make it works the same way that it does in pvp, could be a good thing right now, at least for raids...
My 2 cents, on basic and some harder instances and pvp
First, Tank 100 and Othell 99, so I quite play both sides of the spectrum, the protector and the one that "gets the protection". My gear is pretty low for what some ppl have here:
+4 Eternal and 2SA 37% HP Cutter hitting 109k HP with Rose, somewhat my selling point
No epics, just regular Tezza and 4 CoC jewels, I'm poor af
So, what offers Tank to a party? IMO, consistency. Tanks ease the work of the rest of the group (specially the healer if the tank is good), buff the dmg a bit (Auras, Party Solidarity, Panther debuffs for 35% CritDmg + 10% from Tank) and do some dmg itself if he has a good weapon (not my case lol). OP players can run around without one, except for some instances where Tanks have an specific job, strong players appreciate your company if you are good. I get friend invitations from ppl with OE R99 weapons which is cool (here's where the lack of Tanks can play in your favor if you like the class and stick to it)
Kartias and 97+: in the low range they are kinda needed, because a lot of noobs and squishy chars, mid and high range it becomes easy so ppl usually don't mind having a tank around. Of course boss don't follow your aggro most of the time, but you can still help to avoid that some noob suicide itself to a Raged Zellaka or keep the boss in place if they have to run. Similar case with CC/Baylor
Here a point, all the classes have some survival skills to use if they hold the aggro of the boss for too long, if they die they usually are severely undergeared or don't know his char
Isti/Octa/Tauti: Pretty much required for Isti to absorb deaths and avoid Shillen debuff on DDs. Not really required for Octa. Required for the first rooms of Tauti. Epics are another story and Tanks are needed there
Kama 99: Tanks can ease the work of the party, even if the boss is usually after DDs or Iss, it's easy to hold the aggro of the minions and press some emergency buttons if something goes wrong (I've finished Kamaloka without healer because of dc). Also, if DDs are good, the dmg boost will come handy
Tavern: Needed, aggro works well and a good use of UDs is recommended
Gludio: Needed, aggro works well and a good use of UDs is highly recommended
Atelia instance: Needed. I still die often here but I do my job. Same as above and bosses do follow your aggro, but the last one may require that the party stop doing dmg so you can regain aggro if you lose it at some point, it's a teamwork after all
All 99+ instances can fail depending on the tank, so we do have a role in the play
For open field pve a combo of tank+snare makes the pt effective so you can grind without a pause both in EV and Atelia
For open field pvp, aggro works well and a tank can improved the party performance, unless the enemies are highly scripted (assuming similar gears)
Of course, a Tank can be replaced by a Tyrr/Wynn or brute gear force in some cases and it's good as I see it, because is annoying to be unable to do something if no Iss/Healer shows up. You still have tools to avoid a catastrophe when things go wrong and regain control of the situation that other classes lack
If you are good, you'll have something to offer to the group, and whilst it's true that some noobs underaprecciate tanks as you grow, they won't be the ones you'll like to play with at the end of the day
About the group aggro range vs Tyrr. Whilst it's true that the range of the Tyrr aggro is tempting, later in the game it becomes handy being able to call just enough mobs because they do hit hard. It gives you some fine control
For open field pve a combo of tank+snare makes the pt effective so you can grind without a pause both in EV and Atelia
When InfiniteO came, being a tank felt like a pain on AOE Garden of spirits. Spending hours running with the agro easily being broken by literaly everything, Tyrr with r99 stormer +0 was making more agro than tank in this place and the monsters agro was beyond random to healers/ranged characters, you could have party almost safe for 5 minutes and then half of mobs REFUSE to stick to the tank for w/e reason (monsters that are geting influenced by agro skill). Atelia mobs were easier to control, and EV the easiest. I dont understand is what makes the rate of agro seem so bad on some monsters, it's like they have a "hard reset" on agression due to some unkown factor.
What bothered me so much on this place was that u gotta keep the spawn of atention to this AOE mobs the same u give to a baby who is sick. The old tank and spank is missing many times...
PvE wise I'll be honest if I'm a Healer and I'm a making an Exp party in AF and there's a stacked tyrr at my disposal I won't get a tank in my pt since like everyone pointed out Tyrr agro>Tank agro and Tyrrs contributes more than a tank. When it comes to dailies as well Kamaloka and AF instance etc can be done without a tank as well if you're with a stacked pt. So what is a tanks role PvE wise? tanks are helpful if the party is sub-par or not stacked since even not heavily geared tanks can take damage since ofc its their job XD. otherwise as far as I'm concerned a tank is a waste of space in a PvE party XD so let's be hopeful that the aggression improvement is not the only improvement korean developers will do. there should also be done with tyrr's agro like in the old school days only DN should have an agro skill not the other tyrrs and an improvement in the stun for tanks wouldn't hurt as well.
PS- some might say I'm biased but just leaving it here that I'm a tank myself XD
P...I won't get a tank in my pt since like everyone pointed out Tyrr agro>Tank agro and Tyrrs contributes more than a tank
Yes, Im familiar with that attitude. I was declined a party on tank for K99 once because the party leader didnt "need" a tank. Next day I was building a K99 group and this guy entered party room... guess if I invited him?... ofc not and never again.
Yes, Im familiar with that attitude. I was declined a party on tank for K99 once because the party leader didnt "need" a tank. Next day I was building a K99 group and this guy entered party room... guess if I invited him?... ofc not and never again.
well for kamaloka nowadays honestly I do it trio or duo with some friends but I'm not on tank I use my dual which is a 101 PP then before the last rb dies go out change class use freya or whatever then they kill the boss good exp if you ask me and leveling both my main and dual at the same time. :)