Occasionally in the past, when a Clan Leader has been (permanently) banned from Lineage II, there arose the predicament of reassigning clan leadership to another member of the clan. A new clan leader must be chosen so that the clan can move on and evolve. Only Clan Leaders have certain crucial privileges, just a few of which are declaring war, having sole access to the clan warehouse, and setting clan hall and castle permissions to fellow clan members.
To avoid our non-player hands from directly interfering with the selection of the next clan leader, we are looking for suggestions and advice on how best to deal with this type of situation. We want to establish a simple and fair policy for such occurrences, a policy that all players, clan members and clan leaders are comfortable with. Therefore, we bring this question to you: What do you think should be the strict, fair and constant policy regarding transferring clan leadership after the Clan Leader has been banned? All feedback taken from this poll will be used as suggestions and advice in eventually forming a policy on this matter.
In the poll above, you will find several options, each one carrying certain pros and cons. These options are only a few of the possible options, so we encourage you to think and choose carefully, and give as much feedback and suggestions as you can on this matter. If you choose option 3, "the clan member elected by popular vote, and processed by NCsoft staff," please describe a simple, fast and foolproof method of accepting and processing votes. While we are trying to develop a service to transfer leadership fairly, clan affairs are ultimately the business of the clan alone, and not the staff. We have limited resources and time to offer to processing votes, so we ask that you consider this when brainstorming your suggestions.
EDIT: After less than 24 hours of this poll being open, we added the 5th option, "No action should be taken." If you had already chosen a poll option before this change, rest assured that any comments you have posted suggesting this option will be included in its total points at the end of the poll period.
RE: Other -- the player that has assumed clan leadership as a result of the ban. (I suppose the closest one is the person selected by popular vote, but not necessarily always.) All clans have a sub-leader. Perhaps there should be a title for that, and assigned to be leader in these cases.
Popular vote by the members who had been apart of the clan. Some clan leaders can't be trusted and do things to deserve their punishment, their word should not be accepted as to who should take over. I do agree though, it would be amazing for clans to have access to the majority of things lost that were deserved. Hours were spent in game to work together as a team to achieve those things. It's not fair to lose them all because of a single player's actions.
I would say it should be popular vote -- but that gets NC involved in a whole lot of the clan drama. I don't know if it's really your place?
Having the ban leader choose who to pass it off to could just result in them passing it to another account of theirs and no real punishment is seen. Unless you can garuntee that it's not the same person... which you can't -- (ie, they can just log in via VPN to change their IP, unless you keep running IP records).
Personally -- clan leaders hold a very high position, and the bigger, more powerful the clan the bigger goes the leaders responsibility. If they get banned that should be their own fault. If they're going to RMT or bot then they shouldn't be the leader anyhow.
I say keep it the way it is and just let them start over, it's they're own fault.
I think that for larger clans, the leader of a guard/knight subsection with the most seniority should get to be leader, and for clans without these it should be popular vote by mail. I think that any other voting wouldn't work, as it would be detrimental for anyone who didn't vote for the winner in a public vote, as they might get kicked when the new leader takes charge, and it's not foolproof to give it to the player with the most seniority...what if it's someone who hasn't been on in a few months?
I voted "other". If the clan leader gets banned, it's his own fault and there should be a punishment. All the options you listed could just result in one of the old clan leader's alts getting leadership and the banned clan leader would just say "ah well, I'll just powerlvl up another toon then".
The clan leader holds the responsibility for what happens to the clan, and so if he gets banned, the clan should die, too. I was already against the "transfer leadership" option when it was introduced, since I believe the way clans were intended to be like when L2 started was that the clan members are the supporters of the clan leader on his way to being a castle lord. And if that leader leaves game for whatever reason, the clan should be dead. All the quests up to clan lvl 5 are about the clan leader doing quests and sacrificing his own sp to strengthen the clan. Now, with the leadership transfer option, it does not really matter anymore who is clan leader, which is a bit sad.
Anyway, the question was "should clan leadership be transferred to somebody else if the clan leader gets banned?" and I say: no, let the clan die. If you're unhappy about losing your lvl 11 clan, maybe the clan leader should not have botted then.
Word
All the clans that lost soo much for so long, it has to be a serious problem for the clan.
Just my 2 cents, but right now it is fine the way it is.
Clan Leader implies a higher trust and more accountability.
RE: Other -- All clans have a sub-leader. Perhaps there should be a title for that, and assigned to be leader in these cases.
this is the best so far,
I'm sure that this has been a pain in NCSoft's buttocks and it has cost the game some players in the past because they put their time and effort into making the clan then the leader gets banned and all of their efforts are wasted. The still active players get hacked then leave the game. I think Armenua's idea of a sub-leader is the best solution so far.
Something along the lines of the leader of the first guard unit, but then again not all clans have them. So, in the alternative I'd say most senior member whose account is active.
Other- clan vote (via nc staff or not) but with some rules
-1st the members that vote (or voted) would be in clan for at least 2 months before the ban day
-2nd the person that gets the leadership wont have the ability to transfer it for the next year
-3rd the person that agrees to be leader must have 80% or more of the clans votes!
-4th When ban happens the clan must Lock all privileges of all ppl in clan for the next week to 10 days (so no kicks) and in those days the above actions should happen if anyone wants to leave he can but if he loses permanently the right to vote!
-5th If the player that gets the leadership gets banned in the first year of his leadership (the year that he can not transfer the clan) The clan should be desolved by the gms deleting WH and losing all clan skills!
Some penalties also must be made for those clans that go through the above like:
not being able to siege castle for 2 times after the new leader takes over.
These mesures would be modified for older clans that their leader has been banned years ago!
Also what must be done 100% by ncsoft staff is stating that the new leader must not be the same person as the old!
When a leader is cought to do illegal acts nc must scan his ip and track him for at least 2 weeks in case he has anoother account and if he does that account wont have the ability to take new leadership!
OMG I would so love for this to eventually be allowed in some form. My situation:
About 2 years ago (6 months or so before Kain/Lionna merge) our clan leader vanished. I don't even know if he was banned or not (he could have just as easily gave up on the game/died/became homeless etc etc), as he has never again been on vent, doesn't answer emails, and we can't track him down. We also had a clan hall that many (15+ or so) members had worked hard and contributed to. Well, with the merger, obviously the 2b worth of adena as well as mats/quest items we had accumulated sit unusable in the CWH. Every once in a while I peek at that and cry. It sucks. Obviously we have all moved on to other clans and most members have quit. But we still have left toons in the clan with full rights.
My proposal would be take a vote of all members of the clan that have full rights *or* are captains of Royal Guard/Knight Units (if they exist). This indicates that the clan had some sort of power/authority structure, and thus it makes sense to have those chosen sub-leaders determine the direction the clan wants to go in for a new leader.
Hell, even knowing whether or not the leader was even banned or not would be nice >.<
I think at that point the clan should just have an implosion ... everything is scattered randomly. The items closest to the banned clan leader are destroyed and the rest strewn about haphazardly. At that point no more clan and people can gather back together and remake the clan or move on to other clans. :D
In a natural break down like that ... you really would not have time to divvy the goods.
... and if the clan you built was that good wouldn't they naturally go back together after a disaster? :D
personally i think ppl should think b4 they put stuff in cwh. It asks whether u understand that only clan ldr can retrieve the stuff... ur alrdy assuming they aint scammers or else c wh would be empty. If u find they are banned c'est la vie. Move on nothing to see here.
does it ppl up ? yes. Should ncsoft care? no.
edit um sace ur fiters suxxxxxx...
in a lightbulb
screwdriver
use a to hang a picture...
The fact the clan leader leader is banned....speaks volumes for the clan leader/clan. But on that rare instance, the first highest ranking officer should be giving the position. <shrugs> My CL is legit, even if a carebear :)
A vote where an in-game mail would be sent to all active toons that were in the clan prior to the banned to decide the fate of the clan.
The option would be:
1- dissolve the clan and everything in it
2- elect a player to be leader (give the name of the leader you want)
3- Don't count me as a vote (some people just don't like to voice there pick so why count against other player that want try do something)
Give people 2weeks to vote (that seem like long time) and then out the vote what ever option get the most vote that what happens.
If option 2 has most vote but no clear winner of people vote a another vote with the people elect should be brought in and they only have 3 days to vote on that.
I think this would be the fairest way to see what to do / who become the clan leader because the punishment already be placed on the leader he got banned but punish the clan member who work very hard to get where they are shouldn't be punish too because of what someone else did.
Also for the players that had there clan leader banned in the past should have the ability to vote on what happens to the clan they were in(for only people who were in the clan prior to the leader banned and who are still active) should be able to vote with this system too.
this is starting off all the wrong way...
it should never have been started with the word ban...
if a clan leader otherwise becomes unable to play, or lead the clan suddenly... and is unable to transfer leadership through the usual channels.
this also includes clan leaders who die, or lose their internet for extended periods of time... death may be rare, but it happens.
there should be an assign successor option similar to guard captains.
it could be completely confidential, or widely open as a leader/co-leader relationship. if the clan leader becomes inactive, or the account stops being paid, it should change over to the new leader.
to help prevent the successor from leaving the clan, maybe add an additional option box to leaving the clan for them, are your sure you want to leave the clan... you are chosen as successor, are you still sure you want to leave the clan?
The clan and clan warehouse are property of the clan leader. As with the clan leader's items and gear it should be lost forever.
Please don't change anything about this - don't give in to banned players who e-mail or phone you crying because their clan are losing out. It's their own fault and the clan should blame the leader, not you, so why change policy?
wow how low has this game dropped....now everything was solved, and what's there left to do???....oh yes, let's think about the poor clan leaders who were banned.....if the clan leader was banned well than the clan should be no concern for the others, after all if the role-model, the leader of the clan "won" a ban then there's a high probability that the others members aren't so legit....after all the trend in this game is "hey if they bot and if NCSoft allows it, why shouldn't we do it, look at the cl X he botted and now he has high level and he's a role model for the others"
but sure...go ahead, you need money after all....transfer the clan leadership to another high character that was probably botted, assure the continuity of a clan which doesn't deserve it....
wow, I was so right in my previous posts....you didn't fail me.....
so what's next? NC gonna sell the game with the 3rd party programs: "L2 Anniversary Eddition with limited 3rd party programs bundle pack'
Thank you for this post, even though today is going to be a hard day at the office, at least I had a laugh on this....NCSoft you fail so much. :(
I can see doing this for INACTIVE clan leaders who for some reason left game, let their clannies petition it and after say 3 months or so assign a new leader if the old one remains inactive.
but for rightfully banned clan leaders who were caught doing fully illegal activities? um...
people who fight overpowered botter clans really like it when the clan leader is banned and all that ill-gotten gear, and the clan, is gone and the cheaters have to start all over to at least some disadvantage. which they do, and usually suffer no huge loss because they cheated to get where they were in the first place and they will just cheat some more to replace the stuff and the clan. besides the fact that illegit clans should be smart enough to have clan leader on a fully legit account in the first place, just LOL if they don't...
implementing this would primarily only benefit cheaters so -1 from the perspective of the legit L2 community. assigning new leadership essentially means giving the botters back all their stuff, AND the clan... so no real loss. The clan is gonna move on and evolve how? Be more careful to put clan leader on a legit account from now on? No real loss = back to business botting. and really, should have thought this through before even posting this poll. kinda obvious it's a bad idea, unless you were thinking this will bring people back to game lol (think it's too late for that)
something should definitely be implemented to return clan halls held by permanently banned clan leader accounts to general auction for sure however, so that other active players can have a chance to get them.
If the clan leader is banned for anything but a billing problem, the clan should be dissolved after 3 months if the leader is not unbanned till then.
If the clan leader's account got cancelled due to billing problems, or in otherwise good standing is unpaid for 3 or more months, the clan member's popular vote should be carried on after 3 months of account expiration by request of any clan member. Only the members being in the clan at the moment of the leader's account expiration can participate.
I can see doing this for INACTIVE clan leaders who for some reason left game, let their clannies petition it and after say 3 months or so assign a new leader if the old one remains inactive.
if your clan leader went afk,inactive etc before he transfer leadership to other clan member, it means he not care about clan, members, friends etc:>
No No and one more time NO...dont change anything.
I see ppl voting for option with 'choose new leader by voting' lol..
Lets see on example big clans..on teon bartz or phoenix or any server..
clan have 100 members with boxed toons, buffers etc 200, how the hell 100 ppl can vote, how u want avoid emo drama,emo rage, and flame.
What about old/ex members of clan X with banned leader..
if the leader is banned, most of ppl left/leafing clan to make new one, so who can vote ?only ppl who are still in old clan or ppl who made new clan vote also?
I voted "other". If the clan leader gets banned, it's his own fault and there should be a punishment. All the options you listed could just result in one of the old clan leader's alts getting leadership and the banned clan leader would just say "ah well, I'll just powerlvl up another toon then".
The clan leader holds the responsibility for what happens to the clan, and so if he gets banned, the clan should die, too. I was already against the "transfer leadership" option when it was introduced, since I believe the way clans were intended to be like when L2 started was that the clan members are the supporters of the clan leader on his way to being a castle lord. And if that leader leaves game for whatever reason, the clan should be dead. All the quests up to clan lvl 5 are about the clan leader doing quests and sacrificing his own sp to strengthen the clan. Now, with the leadership transfer option, it does not really matter anymore who is clan leader, which is a bit sad.
Anyway, the question was "should clan leadership be transferred to somebody else if the clan leader gets banned?" and I say: no, let the clan die. If you're unhappy about losing your lvl 11 clan, maybe the clan leader should not have botted then.
if your clan leader went afk,inactive etc before he transfer leadership to other clan member, it means he not care about clan, members, friends etc:>
Or he is dead.
I voted "other". If the clan leader gets banned, it's his own fault and there should be a punishment. All the options you listed could just result in one of the old clan leader's alts getting leadership and the banned clan leader would just say "ah well, I'll just powerlvl up another toon then".
The clan leader holds the responsibility for what happens to the clan, and so if he gets banned, the clan should die, too. I was already against the "transfer leadership" option when it was introduced, since I believe the way clans were intended to be like when L2 started was that the clan members are the supporters of the clan leader on his way to being a castle lord. And if that leader leaves game for whatever reason, the clan should be dead. All the quests up to clan lvl 5 are about the clan leader doing quests and sacrificing his own sp to strengthen the clan. Now, with the leadership transfer option, it does not really matter anymore who is clan leader, which is a bit sad.
Anyway, the question was "should clan leadership be transferred to somebody else if the clan leader gets banned?" and I say: no, let the clan die. If you're unhappy about losing your lvl 11 clan, maybe the clan leader should not have botted then.
+1 to this
so now NCSoft is using their time to "Help those who got banned because of their own fault for breaking T's and C's".
sure, and next we should give those who get banned a 2 billion adena bonus so that when they start their new account they dont feel left behind.
this is starting off all the wrong way...
it should never have been started with the word ban...
if a clan leader otherwise becomes unable to play, or lead the clan suddenly... and is unable to transfer leadership through the usual channels.
this also includes clan leaders who die, or lose their internet for extended periods of time... death may be rare, but it happens.
there should be an assign successor option similar to guard captains.
it could be completely confidential, or widely open as a leader/co-leader relationship. if the clan leader becomes inactive, or the account stops being paid, it should change over to the new leader.
to help prevent the successor from leaving the clan, maybe add an additional option box to leaving the clan for them, are your sure you want to leave the clan... you are chosen as successor, are you still sure you want to leave the clan?
your successor idea is a nice one however I would add that they may not be ADDED as a successor to begin with unless also online and they get a window popup that says something to the effect of 'do you accept the role of successor' and that instead of a leave button like the CL it would be greyed out and they would have to actually go to an npc that deals with clan activities to resign as the 'successor'
There are situations that are outside the realm of banning and the clan members themselves should not be punished for it. IF a service similar to this premise is put in place, it could possibly be only permitted IF the clan leader's account (even if inactive) is in good standing with ncsoft
If the leader leaves game for a non-ban reason; whether inactivity/billing/death/taxes/lose of interest then perhaps some sub-leader system or vote system is valid.
If however, they are banned, if it is a perma-ban, should the clan remain, i'm not so sure. As someone said above, what's to stop the bad leader from taking over on an alt? I am a clan leader and have 2 alts (3 if you include the academy toon) in clan, should I get 3 votes?
As for the contents of the warehouse, it does say, only the CL can remove items from the wh, but does that mean I own them? probably not. We have a billion or so adena's worth of B,A,S mats in there, that I consider as the property of the clan members, if they want something, they only need to ask. (although we normally ask for a minimal donation to clan funds if they do).
As for TheBlackDawn, the day our leader (me) is banned will be a cold day in hell, for as sad as it may sound, I actually enjoy the grind. (ok it must be time for my meds).
100% of posts on this thread come from ppl who never had a leader banned.
Since this post is going to the clan members who already had their leader banned, only them should vote.
Noone care about your opinion guys, you know nothing about each clan leader, why they got banned, how members had to try to get HGM Pommo / HGM Will in mail.
All bigs clan don't work with the clan leader, this clan leader can be CC leader with a dorf lvl 50 (dilvish) and all the ally will follow him without problem, the char isn't a problem, but when the clan is working together it's rly bad to loose all rights because of Gm's mistakes. Ban the char if he broke EULA yes, kill a clan no.
After all it's a game, ALL banned clan leader came back to game with an other char, mostly coming from a bot train, but this time giving the clan lead to an alt, that noone ever log, with different IP, mail etc.. because the status "clan leader" mean nothing, the spirit of a clan leader means something !
Most of clans have a clan leader just because we must have one when you create it, but it doesn't mean he has to care for 220 ppl, it's impossible to check everyone if he is botting, even the most legit clans I knew, I saw some posts on goha/guru from the clan leader to apologize because one of their clan member was botting/cheating/rmt..
Well nvm, since only ppl who never had a clan leader will vote, Gms shouldn't even care for their answers, and just let the old clan leader change the lead himself.
This must be a joke. If clan leader is banned his clan should be deleted with him. Banned clan leader = dead clan. Maybe with some shame on they'r backs people stop to be connive with the cheaters.
100% of posts on this thread come from ppl who never had a leader banned.
Since this post is going to the clan members who already had their leader banned, only them should vote.
Noone care about your opinion guys, you know nothing about each clan leader, why they got banned, how members had to try to get HGM Pommo / HGM Will in mail.
All bigs clan don't work with the clan leader, this clan leader can be CC leader with a dorf lvl 50 (dilvish) and all the ally will follow him without problem, the char isn't a problem, but when the clan is working together it's rly bad to loose all rights because of Gm's mistakes. Ban the char if he broke EULA yes, kill a clan no.
After all it's a game, ALL banned clan leader came back to game with an other char, mostly coming from a bot train, but this time giving the clan lead to an alt, that noone ever log, with different IP, mail etc.. because the status "clan leader" mean nothing, the spirit of a clan leader means something !
Most of clans have a clan leader just because we must have one when you create it, but it doesn't mean he has to care for 220 ppl, it's impossible to check everyone if he is botting, even the most legit clans I knew, I saw some posts on goha/guru from the clan leader to apologize because one of their clan member was botting/cheating/rmt..
Well nvm, since only ppl who never had a clan leader will vote, Gms shouldn't even care for their answers, and just let the old clan leader change the lead himself.
lf Nya =)
Well if you clairly think we are wrong then tell the people in your clan that dont agree with us to vote, and let the post what they think. ofc people will vote from what perspective they have.
Just letting one side be heard and is just wrong on your site, here is you and your friends chance to be heard in this matter, so instead of just saying that the poll should be disregarded logg in to game and let people know the actually have a chance to say what the think.
Some time back before we formed our own clan (which was incidentally for our alts), I joined a clan. As a noob to L2, I didn't know about bots and the like, so does that mean I am a bad person, or that I condone what they were doing?
No.
If I was to remain in that clan knowing people were botting, does that make me bad even if I wansn't doing it myself? I guess that depends if I was gaining anything from being there.
If I was to join a bot party of clannies knowing they were bots, is that bad. yes.
So your moral isn't valid, however this paraphrase of it is:-
Well if you clairly think we are wrong then tell the people in your clan that dont agree with us to vote, and let the post what they think. ofc people will vote from what perspective they have.
Just letting one side be heard and is just wrong on your site, here is you and your friends chance to be heard in this matter, so instead of just saying that the poll should be disregarded logg in to game and let people know the actually have a chance to say what the think.
Sry ? I read you 4 times I can't get that you mean. You have no clue of that you are talking about, what is it to be in a clan when your leader get banned, not for RMT/BOT. Just keep your mouth closed. There is a forum where you give your opinion from things you know, you know nothing so stay away, you are only spamming and increasing your post count :)
if the leader is banned dont transfert leadership, let this clan without leader to pusnish the members, because they was unable to convince their leader to be legit or have closed their eyes about his activities :)
i try keep it simple:
a Clan is nothing without it´s Members
the fact that a Clanwarehouse contains Items isn´t the Achievement of the Clanleader BUT his members.therefor i don´t see why the full clan has to suffer for the mistake of 1. in most cases the members don´t even know reasons.could be by CreditCard Issue,could be by silly Adena buy/sell for irl money,could be botting....could have plenty of individual reasons. So don´t be so fast with your judgeing "DON'T JOIN BOT CLAN!" lol
i vote for 3rd Option. and everybody that lost a Clan that he loved to be inside and worked hard for to bring it on top of the server should vote the same.
Sry ? I read you 4 times I can't get that you mean. You have no clue of that you are talking about, what is it to be in a clan when your leader get banned, not for RMT/BOT. Just keep your mouth closed. There is a forum where you give your opinion from things you know, you know nothing so stay away, you are only spamming and increasing your post count :)
lol? ok I can clairy see that you dident understand what I wrote, so instead for you to read my post a 5th time I will tell it again in other words.
Most of the people that are here on the forums does not have had there clan leader banned. So almost all of the votes that will be done will be by people that dont have the same perspective as you have, as YOU self said.
What i meant was that instead of just saying that they should disregard the poll, you should tell your clan mates to come on the boards to state there opinion on this matter as here you and your friends have a chance to say something about this that actually matter.
no were in my post did I say that you shouldet give you opinion, I am saying that more of you SHOULD . hope that claify what I mean.
Some time back before we formed our own clan (which was incidentally for our alts), I joined a clan. As a noob to L2, I didn't know about bots and the like, so does that mean I am a bad person, or that I condone what they were doing?
No.
If I was to remain in that clan knowing people were botting, does that make me bad even if I wansn't doing it myself? I guess that depends if I was gaining anything from being there.
If I was to join a bot party of clannies knowing they were bots, is that bad. yes.
So your moral isn't valid, however this paraphrase of it is:-
Moral of the story: Don't stay in a bot clan.
If you joined a clan and didn't figure out it was a bot-led clan before you contributed to the wealth of the clan, you are either willfully blind or mind-numbingly ... well let's stick with willfully blind.
Since this post is going to the clan members who already had their leader banned,
Wrong, see below:
We want to establish a simple and fair policy for such occurrences, a policy that all players, clan members and clan leaders are comfortable with. Therefore, we bring this question to you: What do you think should be the strict, fair and constant policy regarding transferring clan leadership after the Clan Leader has been banned?
lol? ok I can clairy see that you dident understand what I wrote, so instead for you to read my post a 5th time I will tell it again in other words.
Most of the people that are here on the forums does not have had there clan leader banned. So almost all of the votes that will be done will be by people that dont have the same perspective as you have, as YOU self said.
What i meant was that instead of just saying that they should disregard the poll, you should tell your clan mates to come on the boards to state there opinion on this matter as here you and your friends have a chance to say something about this that actually matter.
no were in my post did I say that you shouldet give you opinion, I am saying that more of you SHOULD . hope that claify what I mean.
HGM Pommo and HGM Will are much more ranked that these Sace & Mixie on forum, they are making a pole, but the decision of changing the clan leader to an other when this one got banned is taken already. That's why I say most of your posts are useless, just vote 1-2-3-others, gives your opinion, but it's pointless to say "no don't change it" because it will happens anyway.
hi clueless person. you seriously believe in 200 members knowing about every action their leader does? wake up please
Lol, yes you must try to know what your clan leader actions are. But its easy to close your eyes and don't botter if hes a cheater or not then come cry cause your powerfull clan loose something.
How can you know they pain of when you burn your finger, when you never got it burnt ?
Anyway Sace is asking ur opinion, everyone can answer, but did you read the poll twice ? it's "which answer do you think could be the best option to change the clanleadership of a banned leader?" not if you think it's good to change it. The result of this poll will has no sence at all, since the lead will be changed at the end :)
im really happy that NCSoft team is looking on this subject, means that all those hundreds mails were good to call attention for this big issue.
For all those ppl saying that CL banned = clan dead, RIP etc than all i can say is that ur playing the wrong game. This is an MMORPG.
You dont play this game alone, and if you do, you play it wrong. This is a group game. All the achievements a clan can get are not CL achievements, they are the clan (as a group) achievements.
The clan leader is not an owner, the clan leader is a manager. Lots of times the person leading the clan wasnt the person going to the NPC and creating the clan, its just someone that got apointed to manage the clan.
There are situation where NCSoft punishes a clan as a grp because they used some bug or violated the rules in some way. This is totally fine and all agree with this.
But to make clans of 200 ppl, being lvl 3 or 11, having 10 members or 200 to be punished because of 1 account, this is what i think it has to change.
In this clans there are grps and players that made history in this game, as an example RedSky being the 1st clan to kill Beleth on NA servers. Unforgiven being the only clan that holded a castle for 2 years back in the days. The examples could go on.
The main point is: if there wasnt clan responsibility like bug using or i dunno what, there is no point in punishing the clan in the hardest way possible. Because without a clan leader a clan's fate is to die.
Please GM team and L2 Community, a Clan Leader is a manager, its not an owner. Owners are all the members that make a clan exist.
Lol, yes you must try to know what your clan leader actions are. But its easy to close your eyes and don't botter if hes a cheater or not then come cry cause your powerfull clan, where usually more then half of the clan members know that the leader is a cheater, then come here to tray to play the "Im am right, i can't be punished" role.
i was one of the oldest members in my old clan unforgiven,i was even longer in that clan than the current leader. do i know what my leader does when i sleep? NO! in small pve based clans this might be possible but i didn´t know that my current leader decided to bot and i was knocked down when i heard that she got banned! you so easy and fast here with your comments and prejudice. but yea,i will follow your advice and ask my current leader to inform me every hour about what he does or will decide in future. putting my fully trust in my leader that he does the right thing and then dissapoints the full clan isn´t comparable with "closing eyes".....for sure you never been in any situation like this....i mean how could you....looking your postcount i see clearly where you spent the most of your time ;)
If NCSoft put in the game a new "improvement" like if a clan leader is banned, other member of the clan can take his place and the clan continues without a problem is a open declaration - by the company - that cheating is no problem...
Lets see: clan leader "Uberboter" plays in a ilegitimate way for months and buy adena, he put the belongings in the clan warehouse, he is banned, the clan choose another leader - "CheatPwonzor" - starts to use ilegitimate ways of playing, put the things in the clan warehouse, get banned, another clan leader apears...:D
Please keep the things like they are: if the clan leader is banned all that belongs to his personal warehouse and in the clan warehouse is lost!
One last thing: its too much to ask NCSoft West to start thinking, before put out this cheater-friendly sugestions...?:mad:
If you give some in-game item to the clan, you lose control of it. The clan has control of it, meaning the clan leader has control of it. Given that, you have no claim on it anymore. It is no longer yours.
Similarly, you also have zero claim on anything another clannie donates to the clan, none.
When the clan leader is banned, you have lost nothing of in-game material wealth because you have no claim on the clan warehouse contents.
These are well established rules in the game. The best illustration is the guy that comes to the forum QQ about the epics he lent his friend who then got banned. The NCSoft line is "Those items are no longer yours once you gave them to your friend". This is right and proper and should apply directly to the topic at hand.
You gave up the items to the CWH, the leader gets banned, the stuff is locked up forever.
i was one of the oldest members in my old clan unforgiven,i was even longer in that clan than the current leader. do i know what my leader does when i sleep? NO! in small pve based clans this might be possible but i didn´t know that my current leader decided to bot and i was knocked down when i heard that she got banned! you so easy and fast here with your comments and prejudice. but yea,i will follow your advice and ask my current leader to inform me every hour about what he does or will decide in future. putting my fully trust in my leader that he does the right thing and then dissapoints the full clan isn´t comparable with "closing eyes".....for sure you never been in any situation like this....i mean how could you....looking your postcount i see clearly where you spent the most of your time ;)
Oh yeah its so dificult to see if someone start to bot or not. Seriously you simple didn't care if he started to bot or not. Every time i had the impression if someone was botting in the clan i am i went there and checked 1 2 3 times if necessary cause i CARE with what my clan members are doing for the sake of my clan name, in a big clan should be even easyer cause you have more people that SHOULD care too, but what you guys do is as you said "fully trust" and wash your hands and cause of that you guys deserve the same punishment of your clan leader.
first of all clan leader is not the owner of a clan he is just a manager like Vtr say and to punish about 200 ppl for that it was wrong from the start of the game. this is one thing that was needed to be fixed long time ago with 1-3 sub leaders that can continue to manage clan after clan leader is ban and take over funktions of banned clan leader. so if ncsoft transferrs clan leadership to other member of a clan then need to fix that things to wath will not make problems in future "if" somone other clan leader gets banned of any other clan:)
Oh yeah its so dificult to see if someone start to bot or not. Seriously you simple didn't care if he started to bot or not. Every time i had the impression if someone was botting in the clan i am i went there and checked 1 2 3 times if necessary cause i CARE with what my clan members are doing for the sake of my clan name, in a big clan should be even easyer cause you have more people that SHOULD care too, but what you guys do is as you said "fully trust" and wash your hands and cause of that you guys deserve the same punishment of your clan leader.
your leader a level 56 dorf? then i can understand your answer.
wanna come to a real clan and try follow the leader to citadel2 with your 79 max?u amuse me
but well +1 postcount for you,woohooo!
@malda 100% posts coming from ppl that play in this game 5 years and their averange lvl is 71 :D , and to rest LOLs saying if char is banned dont transfer leadership let me enlight you all : THIS POLL is mostly for ppl that got BANNED for RTM . So why whole clan must suffer if CL broke RTM and others ( YEA RIGHT ! ) never broke it ?:D answer me this 5 years players that never even seen antharas/valakas and other epic rbs crying in their corner that they DONT know how to exp cuz its imposible for them ;_; . ( ps yeah right if in g+ you cant exp delete char :D with lvl 4 vit to lvl 3 you do like 50-100% exp in certains location w/o any unlegitness ways so QQ )
Oh yeah its so dificult to see if someone start to bot or not. Seriously you simple didn't care if he started to bot or not. Every time i had the impression if someone was botting in the clan i am i went there and checked 1 2 3 times if necessary cause i CARE with what my clan members are doing for the sake of my clan name, in a big clan should be even easyer cause you have more people that SHOULD care too, but what you guys do is as you said "fully trust" and wash your hands and cause of that you guys deserve the same punishment of your clan leader.
lol :D
think about what ur saying. maybe this is ok for ur 20 ppl clan, where u can keep a spy cam on ur clan leader and he obeys ur every wishes bc it will bo so hard for the clan to lose a member like you that after 5 years is lvl 79 (almost nobless) and his forum post count is over 1k already. Im sure u experienced so much of this game that ur some kind of L2 Guru, apply for GM imo.
Even in the cases where some ppl knew that CL was botting (if even that was the case of the ban) what u expect ppl to do? HELLO McFly! u cant kick him, he will kick u if u annoy too much! lol
@malda 100% posts coming from ppl that play in this game 5 years and their averange lvl is 71 :D , and to rest LOLs saying if char is banned dont transfer leadership let me enlight you all : THIS POLL is mostly for ppl that got BANNED for RTM . So why whole clan must suffer if CL broke RTM and others ( YEA RIGHT ! ) never broke it ?:D answer me this 5 years players that never even seen antharas/valakas and other epic rbs crying in their corner that they DONT know how to exp cuz its imposible for them ;_; . ( ps yeah right if in g+ you cant exp delete char :D with lvl 4 vit to lvl 3 you do like 50-100% exp in certains location w/o any unlegitness ways so QQ )
umm... yeah... riiiiiight.....
I'm 80 and almost 80 on a sub. I regularly join in epics.
I made the point here, just recently, that there is long standing NCSoft precedent that applies in this topic that supports losing the CWH.
Anyway Sace is asking ur opinion, everyone can answer, but did you read the poll twice ? it's "which answer do you think could be the best option to change the clanleadership of a banned leader?"
I've read the question many times, and I know the answer since the beginning. The only "strict, fair and constant policy regarding transferring clan leadership after the Clan Leader has been banned" (for non-billing related violations) is "do not transfer". Anything else is not strict, or not constant, or, most often, not fair. First of all, it's not fair to the clans whose leaders did not break the EULA.
first of all clan leader is not the owner of a clan he is just a manager
No.
The clan leader is the leader and the owner of all the clan achieve (clan house, fortress, castle, all kind of stuff in the clan warehouse) because he is the only to have control over the said stuff.
This idea its a dream for the cheaters, and another nail on the coffin of this game.
Seriously: the only people that say yes to this new friendly-cheater ideas, dont stop to think about the result of the implementation of the idea, or worst, are cheaters (or wannabe-cheaters) that are praying for the idea is implemented in L2.
think about what ur saying. maybe this is ok for ur 20 ppl clan, where u can keep a spy cam on ur clan leader and he obeys ur every wishes bc it will bo so hard for the clan to lose a member like you that after 5 years is lvl 79 (almost nobless) and his forum post count is over 1k already. Im sure u experienced so much of this game that ur some kind of L2 Guru, apply for GM imo.
Even in the cases where some ppl knew that CL was botting (if even that was the case of the ban) what u expect ppl to do? HELLO McFly! u cant kick him, he will kick u if u annoy too much! lol
just grow up and say something constructive :)
Lol i don't play this game for 5 years dude not at retail. And he don't need to kick me, if i discover my cl is botting i report him and leave, and also ill make all my clannies know that hes a cheater and tell them to leave too. Simple.
im really happy that NCSoft team is looking on this subject, means that all those hundreds mails were good to call attention for this big issue.
For all those ppl saying that CL banned = clan dead, RIP etc than all i can say is that ur playing the wrong game. This is an MMORPG.
You dont play this game alone, and if you do, you play it wrong. This is a group game. All the achievements a clan can get are not CL achievements, they are the clan (as a group) achievements.
The clan leader is not an owner, the clan leader is a manager. Lots of times the person leading the clan wasnt the person going to the NPC and creating the clan, its just someone that got apointed to manage the clan.
There are situation where NCSoft punishes a clan as a grp because they used some bug or violated the rules in some way. This is totally fine and all agree with this.
But to make clans of 200 ppl, being lvl 3 or 11, having 10 members or 200 to be punished because of 1 account, this is what i think it has to change.
In this clans there are grps and players that made history in this game, as an example RedSky being the 1st clan to kill Beleth on NA servers. Unforgiven being the only clan that holded a castle for 2 years back in the days. The examples could go on.
The main point is: if there wasnt clan responsibility like bug using or i dunno what, there is no point in punishing the clan in the hardest way possible. Because without a clan leader a clan's fate is to die.
Please GM team and L2 Community, a Clan Leader is a manager, its not an owner. Owners are all the members that make a clan exist.
thx all for reading
VTR
I allways had the understanding that with this game that the CL was the clan. And the other clan members were just and extension of the "will" of the clan leader one could say.
Perhaps this is an old C1 way of thinking, that the rest follow one.
Lol i don't play this game for 5 years dude not at retail. And he don't need to kick me, if i discover my cl is botting i report him and leave, and also ill make all my clannies know that hes a cheater and tell them to leave too. Simple.
that sure works nice in a lvl 3 to 5 clan. maybe one day you know what's needed to be lvl 6->7->8->9->10->11.
I allways had the understanding that with this game that the CL was the clan. And the other clan members were just and extension of the "will" of the clan leader one could say.
Perhaps this is an old C1 way of thinking, that the rest follow one.
Its cause they don't have a clan. They have a gang of trouble makers that don't have sence of hierachy.
@Olisiponense : "The clan leader is the leader and the owner of all the clan achieve (clan house, fortress, castle, all kind of stuff in the clan warehouse) because he is the only to have control over the said stuff."
so what for are sub-clan leaders ? our dead clan still has fortress and his CH. It's hard to keep 2 castles when you don't have 2 strong clan, and ofc the WH is lost.
For these QQing about bot/RMT; our CL didn't get ban for this, but for a related informations (2 same mail for 2 accounts), legit clan leader, but same mail of a cheater. Let's say you live in ur parent's house, if you father get caught at robbing a bank, will you go in prison also ?
I allways had the understanding that with this game that the CL was the clan. And the other clan members were just and extension of the "will" of the clan leader one could say.
Perhaps this is an old C1 way of thinking, that the rest follow one.
yea back in C1, good old lvl 3 clans... "extension of the will of the CL" ?!?! are we lemmings? im not.
The CL manages the clan. But the clan itself its the members. Its the members that fight the wars, its the members that siege the castles, its the members that kill the Raid Bosses.
Its cause they don't have a clan. They have a gang of trouble makers that don't have sence of hierachy.
Wouldent say that, I have friends in X and all state that they have a real family felling, even if the top clans are more of contstant party based then usally netrual clans.
I like the way it was meant to be before but i can also see the benefits in a game that is struggeling to hold up a playerbase to change there views.
Once upon a time there was a boy named terry, everyday he caught a bus to go to school and back.
Everything was sweet when he was on the Bus "clan lvl3", the driving was smooth and calm and terry finished primary school.
So terry goes to colege, he needs to take the bus "clan lvl 7", terry doesnt like so much this driver bc he drives to fast, so terry reports the driver and go to colege on foot.
Terry never went to university because terry never took the bus "clan lvl 11", terry is still doing colege and he refuses to take the bus "clan lvl 7" bc the driver doesnt drive the way he likes.
The world is a mean place that dont live by terry's rules. Terry is a sad panda :(
that sure works nice in a lvl 3 to 5 clan. maybe one day you know what's needed to be lvl 6->7->8->9->10->11.
Lol man my clan is lvl 9. But please explain me what magical reason makes this not work with a bigger clan thats not the fact that you are being connive with his mistake?
The clans warehouse and the clan skills are something that belong to the members of the clan, and from my point of view...the banned leader should point some players and then
the clan should vote among them.
The clans warehouse and the clan skills are something that belong to the members of the clan, and from my point of view...the banned leader should point some players and then
the clan should vote among them.
Wrong.
The clan warehouse ONLY belongs to someone that can REMOVE items from it.
Once upon a time there was a boy named terry, everyday he caught a bus to go to school and back.
Everything was sweet when he was on the Bus "clan lvl3", the driving was smooth and calm and terry finished primary school.
So terry goes to colege, he needs to take the bus "clan lvl 7", terry doesnt like so much this driver bc he drives to fast, so terry reports the driver and go to colege on foot.
Terry never went to university because terry never took the bus "clan lvl 11", terry is still doing colege and he refuses to take the bus "clan lvl 7" bc the driver doesnt drive the way he likes.
The world is a mean place that dont live by terry's rules. Terry is a sad panda :(
Ill give you another version, The true one.
Once upon a time there was a boy named terry, everyday he caught a bus to go to school and back.
Everything was sweet when he was on the Bus "clan lvl3", the driving was smooth and calm and terry finished primary school.
So terry goes to colege, he needs to take the bus "clan lvl 7", terry doesnt like so much this driver bc he drives to fast, so terry reports the driver and go to colege on foot.
The next day Terry got his bike went to the scholl and found more people and convinced people that the bus driver was going too fast and putting in risk the ske of all students. The bus driver got fired. Terry Finished the school, the college and now drives his own car.
Terry is happy and the fired bus driver crash another bus and make lots of people cry cause they lost they'r sons who like to see him drive fast.
Not sure how many of the people posting here are or were actual clan leaders at any point in the game. As an actual clan leader, I vote to delete the clan if the leader is permanently banned. As a clan leader you have a responsibility to put the good of your members ahead of yourself. if you can't do that, then you are a crappy leader and no one should follow you.
Sace, you should have really added a few more options to your poll such as to leave the current system in place or to delete clan.
If your clan is large, the vast majority of the clan wealth is probably NOT in the "official" clan warehouse. The "official" clan warehouse is most likely filled with all kind of garbage that clan members unload in there to the point of being almost useless. One of the biggest pains in the [censored] for a large clan leader is cleaning out the stems and other garbage thrown in there by lazy and clueless clan members.
In truth, the vast majority of your clan assets are stored on a level 1 dwarf alt of the clan leader or in the warehouse of the level 3 clan that is owned by that level 1 dwarf. The name of the dorf is probably something like "CWH"...
What happens to that stuff when the clan leader's account is banned? You want that stuff too I bet.
Not sure how many of the people posting here are or were actual clan leaders at any point in the game. As an actual clan leader, I vote to delete the clan if the leader is permanently banned. As a clan leader you have a responsibility to put the good of your members ahead of yourself. if you can't do that, then you are a crappy leader and no one should follow you.
Sace, you should have really added a few more options to your poll such as to leave the current system in place or to delete clan.
Did you put something important in CWH except mats you spoil (what ? you don't do it? such a greedy dorf..) ? a tateo ring ? ops too expensive already..
If your clan is large, the vast majority of the clan wealth is probably NOT in the "official" clan warehouse. The "official" clan warehouse is most likely filled with all kind of garbage that clan members unload in there to the point of being almost useless. One of the biggest pains in the on a large clan leader is cleaning out the stems and other garbage thrown in there by lazy and clueless clan members.
In truth, the vast majority of your clan assets are stored on a level 1 dwarf alt of the clan leader or in the warehouse of the level 3 clan that is owned by that level 1 dwarf. The name of the dorf is probably something like "CWH"...
What happens to that stuff when the clan leader's account is banned? You want that stuff too I bet.
Maybe that happens in ur clan where ppl trust you so much that they fill the clan WH with Cotton Sets and Stem. But in a clan where things work normal as they should, you can find things like Valakas Necklace, vesper sets, vesper weapons, icarus weapons, few bilions adena, all SA crystals and other "garbage" like u call it :x
Do you know what is lineage II in game ?
Of course. But I also know what the RL is. For example, I have work, where I can spend some time on forums while my stuff is being compiled.
So, what will be your next question to demonstrate that a clan of your-kind-of-minded people does really deserve to be put to rest for the health of the game?
Of course. But I also know what the RL is. For example, I have work, where I can spend some time on forums while my stuff is being compiled.
So, what will be your next question to demonstrate that a clan of your-kind-of-minded people does really deserve to be put to rest for the health of the game?
I've no question or proove to give you, our old-clan leader will get changed. The "how" question doesn't matter, rly :)
Maybe that happens in ur clan where ppl trust you so much that they fill the clan WH with Cotton Sets and Stem. But in a clan where things work normal as they should, you can find things like Valakas Necklace, vesper sets, vesper weapons, icarus weapons, few bilions adena, all SA crystals and other "garbage" like u call it :x
You might want to look at creating a few dorfs in order to better organize your stuff.
Just a little tip from your good friend TabbiMae.
BTW: What is all that top stuff doing rotting in a WH when you probably have peeps that could use it?
Not sure how many of the people posting here are or were actual clan leaders at any point in the game. As an actual clan leader, I vote to delete the clan if the leader is permanently banned. As a clan leader you have a responsibility to put the good of your members ahead of yourself. if you can't do that, then you are a crappy leader and no one should follow you.
Sace, you should have really added a few more options to your poll such as to leave the current system in place or to delete clan.
i vote to delete you or mb delting vesper sets + some bj sets is ok for your clan mates if you get Hit ?:D think twice before coming here hush !
Did you put something important in CWH except mats you spoil (what ? you don't do it? such a greedy dorf..) ? a tateo ring ? ops too expensive already..
1. The phrase "greedy dorf" has an unnecessary qualifier
2. How about a Dynasty Cudgel +3 175 Element? Is that expensive enough?
Said weapon is being used on a very grateful clannie as we speak.
I trust my clan and my clan leader, he's not going to get banned.
You might want to look at creating a few dorfs in order to better organize your stuff.
Just a little tip from your good friend TabbiMae.
BTW: What is all that top stuff doing rotting in a WH when you probably have peeps that could use it?
well since the clan leader wasnt warned that he would be banned, the stuff is there rotting since years yes. mb its good idea to implement a system where ppl are warned that hammer is incoming so they can empty the WH's and transfer leadership and say bb to the loved ones.
well since the clan leader wasnt warned that he would be banned, the stuff is there rotting since years yes. mb its good idea to implement a system where ppl are warned that hammer is incoming so they can empty the WH's and transfer leadership and say bb to the loved ones.OMG, Im gonna be banned, I better move all my equipment and money to my alt so the Ban does m00t to me ^_^
Move your drama to blah. It's very good idea with transfer leadership of banned cl, i am lost to many friends quit l2 bcs of 1 person (cl) foult. It's not how u like but how to do it, thx.
same IP - related informations - ban. You should read how EULA works before to talk about dorfs.
If only it were true that NCSoft actually banned in this manner...
Also, maybe read a little more carefully because you just made my point.
If you have a big clan you most likely have "clan assets" all over the place, not just in the clan warehouse. When the leader, who most likely owns all the dorfs, is banned that stuff is gone. I assume, since you are such a strong advocate for getting the clan back to the legit people that you will next petition NCSoft to retrieve that stuff for you as well.
Next, again I assume, you will claim that anyone in your clan that is banned was wearing clan gear and you will want NCSoft to give that back as well.
Move your drama to blah. It's very good idea with transfer leadership of banned cl, i am lost to many friends quit l2 bcs of 1 person (cl) foult. It's not how u like but how to do it, thx.
And lots others quited cause of this soft politic of unban people and not punish clannies that are connive with cheaters.
If only it were true that NCSoft actually banned in this manner...
Also, maybe read a little more carefully because you just made my point.
If you have a big clan you most likely have "clan assets" all over the place, not just in the clan warehouse. When the leader, who most likely owns all the dorfs, is banned that stuff is gone. I assume, since you are such a strong advocate for getting the clan back to the legit people that you will next petition NCSoft to retrieve that stuff for you as well.
Next, again I assume, you will claim that anyone in your clan that is banned was wearing clan gear and you will want NCSoft to give that back as well.
My leader was legit and got banned. that's why yes i'll send a mail to NCsoft to get everything back, they wont apologize for their mistake, but they will do that we asked 8 months ago.
ps : i don't care of cheaters, botters, exploiters etc... one day they will get hit anyway, it's just a matter of time =)
If only it were true that NCSoft actually banned in this manner...
Also, maybe read a little more carefully because you just made my point.
If you have a big clan you most likely have "clan assets" all over the place, not just in the clan warehouse. When the leader, who most likely owns all the dorfs, is banned that stuff is gone. I assume, since you are such a strong advocate for getting the clan back to the legit people that you will next petition NCSoft to retrieve that stuff for you as well.
Next, again I assume, you will claim that anyone in your clan that is banned was wearing clan gear and you will want NCSoft to give that back as well.
You know Tabbi when its such an old and big clan, like the ones that got this problem on Teon. No1 really cares about clan WH, its really the least of the problems. Wipe it out if you want, we will fill it again np.
Just u cant remake a clan lvl 11 with all clan skills and squad skills. Takes many months or mb years.
And most important of all, you lose the clan name. I know many ppl that stopped playing the game bc they couldnt be under the clan named "Unforgiven" or "RedSky" or "random_clan_lvl _3_but_which_the_name_means_a_lot_to_the_members"
Most players have multiple accounts with clan leaders more likely than others to do this. Probably a banned clan leader has other toons in the clan from his other accounts, so allowing any transfer of clan leadership would often result in the banned player simply retaining leadership on a different toon.
If someone is perma banned then we want them gone, not reinstated back into a position of influence on the server. NC wouldn't have done the perma ban on a major player unless they deserved it.
Therefore, harsh as it seems, there should be no transfer of clan ownership. A clan leader is in a position of trust and are held to a high standard. If they betray that trust then they (and the birds of a feather who flew with them) caused their own suffering.
Sace, please do not institute this policy, let a ban remain a ban.
My leader was legit and got banned. that's why yes i'll send a mail to NCsoft to get everything back, they wont apologize for their mistake, but they will do that we asked 8 months ago.
ps : i don't care of cheaters, botters, exploiters etc... one day they will get hit anyway, it's just a matter of time =)
Any clan that has a clan leader who gets banned for using 3rd party programs should not be able to transfer clan. You will be removing the cause and effect of being in a clan where the leader bots.
How many clans have gone to the waysde and all the NC Soft support stated was too bad the rules are the rules.
Now you wish to change these rules?
Too many bot clan complaining that their leaders got banned and they need to transfer leadership?
What next no banning of clan leaders because of how it might impact players in the clan?
You know Tabbi when its such an old and big clan, like the ones that got this problem on Teon. No1 really cares about clan WH, its really the least of the problems. Wipe it out if you want, we will fill it again np.
Just u cant remake a clan lvl 11 with all clan skills and squad skills. Takes many months or mb years.
And most important of all, you lose the clan name. I know many ppl that stopped playing the game bc they couldnt be under the clan named "Unforgiven" or "RedSky" or "random_clan_lvl _3_but_which_the_name_means_a_lot_to_the_members"
At least this is a cogent argument. I disagree, but at least it rises to the level of debate.
Thank you.
Here is my response, given with respect.
I understand your pain, I am also in a long standing clan with a rich history and I understand what it means to fly the flag, so to speak. This is a problem, but it is not a problem that can be remedied by NCSoft eviscerating the rule of law (such as it is).
If the clan name and achievements are such a treasure, the clan leader should have been the first to defend and preserve said treasure, in your case it seems he was not. The time to think about just how valuable your name or your skills are was BEFORE the clan leader engaged in reckless behavior.
In today's Lineage II universe it is extremely hard to get a ban that sticks. What exactly does someone have to do the get a ban nowadays? How amazingly reckless do you have to be in order to get a ban upheld? Seriously look at some of the videos, some of the stories like the great Luna unbanning and tell me with a straight face that a ban that gets upheld after appeal is unfair.
Given that your clan leader's ban was upheld I have no choice but to suggest that it was well deserved and your banned clan leader knew he was putting the clan at risk by engaging in exceptionally blatant EULA breaking activities. Since he was charged with upholding the honor and status of the clan, it is his failure and not NCSoft's.
Any clan that has a clan leader who gets banned for using 3rd party programs should not be able to transfer clan. You will be removing the cause and effect of being in a clan where the leader bots.
How many clans have gone to the waysde and all the NC Soft support stated was too bad the rules are the rules.
Now you wish to change these rules?
Too many bot clan complaining that their leaders got banned and they need to transfer leadership?
What next no banning of clan leaders because of how it might impact players in the clan?
It happend already for 40 SilentHorrors that used exploit to overenchant their skills, unban after few days because NCsoft banned too many ppl and the game might be unbalanced. I thought l2board forum warriors would know every story of all servers, not only devianne and his 300 alive players :(
At least this is a cogent argument. I disagree, but at least it rises to the level of debate.
Thank you.
Here is my response, given with respect.
I understand your pain, I am also in a long standing clan with a rich history and I understand what it means to fly the flag, so to speak. This is a problem, but it is not a problem that can be remedied by NCSoft eviscerating the rule of law (such as it is).
If the clan name and achievements are such a treasure, the clan leader should have been the first to defend and preserve said treasure, in your case it seems he was not. The time to think about just how valuable your name or your skills are was BEFORE the clan leader engaged in reckless behavior.
In today's Lineage II universe it is extremely hard to get a ban that sticks. What exactly does someone have to do the get a ban nowadays? How amazingly reckless do you have to be in order to get a ban upheld? Seriously look at some of the videos, some of the stories like the great Luna unbanning and tell me with a straight face that a ban that gets upheld after appeal is unfair.
Given that your clan leader's ban was upheld I have no choice but to suggest that it was well deserved and your banned clan leader knew he was putting the clan at risk by engaging in exceptionally blatant EULA breaking activities. Since he was charged with upholding the honor and status of the clan, it is his failure and not NCSoft's.
situation 1:
the current leader is botting, panic button on, what can u do? nothing.
u cant dismiss that person bc he's giving the clan a bad name, u cant dismiss that person bc he is putting in danger all the effort from hundreds of ppl over the years.
there are only 2 things you can do, beg him/her to stop but he/her are idiots and they wont listen to you. and you can pray that they wont get banned while being CL. u cant elect new CL every 4 years, there are no democratic elections. So what, u get 1 idiot clan leader and all that u worked for over the years just "puffft" ?! not fair imo
situation 2:
the CL lives in clan hall, like he even has roots on his feet for never leaving the CH except to sign for castles etc. he gets banned bc of some issue with an email 4 years ago, 4 years ago :| you think hundreds of players that played this game hardcore and had a leader that was actually responsible and cared about all the clan property, u think a clan like this deserves such an end, such a punishment? i dont think so.
and ? oh sorry an other post count + for TabbiMae, you don't have a party to spam forum or what ? or you're at work like the other guy, and has nothing else to do than going on a video game forum ?
As a matter of fact, I am at work. Part of my job is actually fulfilled by monitoring multiple game forums.
A whole clan shouldnt be punished for the leaders mistake. You cannot know if a clanleader is breaking the EULA or not. I think the clanleader should pick whoever should be the new clanleader.
the current leader is botting, panic button on, what can u do?
PK him, report him, leave his clan.
u cant dismiss that person bc he's giving the clan a bad name, u cant dismiss that person bc he is putting in danger all the effort from hundreds of ppl over the years.
there are only 2 things you can do, beg him/her to stop but he/her are idiots and they wont listen to you.
If those hundreds of people chose to be led by an idiot, it's their personal choice, the one they are responsible for.
the CL lives in clan hall, like he even has roots on his feet for never leaving the CH except to sign for castles etc. he gets banned bc of some issue with an email 4 years ago, 4 years ago :| you think hundreds of players that played this game hardcore and had a leader that was actually responsible and cared about all the clan property, u think a clan like this deserves such an end, such a punishment?
Sure it does. Next time don't give your clan to a kid or a to a bought toon.
situation 1:
the current leader is botting, panic button on, what can u do? nothing.
u cant dismiss that person bc he's giving the clan a bad name, u cant dismiss that person bc he is putting in danger all the effort from hundreds of ppl over the years.
there are only 2 things you can do, beg him/her to stop but he/her are idiots and they wont listen to you. and you can pray that they wont get banned while being CL. u cant elect new CL every 4 years, there are no democratic elections. So what, u get 1 idiot clan leader and all that u worked for over the years just "puffft" ?! not fair imo
situation 2:
the CL lives in clan hall, like he even has roots on his feet for never leaving the CH except to sign for castles etc. he gets banned bc of some issue with an email 4 years ago, 4 years ago :| you think hundreds of players that played this game hardcore and had a leader that was actually responsible and cared about all the clan property, u think a clan like this deserves such an end, such a punishment? i dont think so.
Situation 1:
Truly unfortunate...
Again I understand the situation and I can sympathize, but I cannot condone breaking the rule of law. It still comes down to a failure of leadership. It isn't NCSoft's place to protect a single person or an entire clan from the clear consequences of bad behavior.
Situation 2:
It is very very hard for me to believe that this situation could ever exist given the ease with which NCSoft has provided unbans in the recent past (The Great Luna UN-Banning). It seems exceedingly unlikely he was really banned because "of some issue with an email 4 years ago" and was completely legit to the point of never gained a single experience point since.
A whole clan shouldnt be punished for the leaders mistake. You cannot know if a clanleader is breaking the EULA or not. I think the clanleader should pick whoever should be the new clanleader.
Wait i will just invite my alt so I still can be CL. :D
If the subject at hand really accurd that the CL was breaking the EULA and the members REALLY hated this and tried to get him to stop and he got banned.
The banned CL should not be able to decide who the new CL should be.
A whole clan shouldnt be punished for the leaders mistake. You cannot know if a clanleader is breaking the EULA or not. I think the clanleader should pick whoever should be the new clanleader.
Please tell me, how can you know if your clanleader is logged in with an unlegit lineage 2 client, or how can you see that hes running 100 bottrains or how can you know that hes selling adena?
If those hundreds of people chose to be led by an idiot, it's their personal choice, the one they are responsible for.
Sure it does. Next time don't give your clan to a kid or a to a bought toon.
You live in an hotel togheter with 200 ppl, u helped to build that hotel since when it was just a brick. 1 day the doorman that u all hired runs away with the hotel keys. U can live across the street of the hotel under the rain.
Another thing, its not the hundreds of ppl choice to be led by an idiot. If you know the game mechanics you would know that its CL choice who will be the next CL.
Please tell me, how can you know if your clanleader is logged in with an unlegit lineage 2 client, or how can you see that hes running 100 bottrains or how can you know that hes selling adena?
Investigate. People always let escape glimpses of unnormal behavior. Just by asking a few questions you can detect glimpses of rmt, botting and cheating.
Please tell me, how can you know if your clanleader is logged in with an unlegit lineage 2 client, or how can you see that hes running 100 bottrains or how can you know that hes selling adena?
You don't have vent?
Most of these losers are all too happy to talk about their botting/selling/trains in vent.
Investigate. People always let escape glimpses of unnormal behavior. Just by asking a few questions you can detect glimpses of rmt, botting and cheating.
True, ur a good example of "unnormal behavior" :) didnt require much investigation though :p
Most of these losers are all too happy to talk about their botting/selling/trains in vent.
Yes i do, and no they dont talk about it.
Investigate. People always let escape glimpses of unnormal behavior. Just by asking a few questions you can detect glimpses of rmt, botting and cheating.
All i have to say to this is ''lol.''
Here is a suggestion that just occurred to me that may solve this, I hope Sace is watching closely.
1. When a clan leader is banned, the Dismiss, Leave and invite functions are all locked. Nobody joins or leaves the clan.
2. Three options are presented to the clan members:
a. Have an election for new clan leader
b. Disband the clan
c. Unlock the functions and leave it as is (i.e. current state)
If the clan selects "a", NCSoft does an investigation of all clan members for EULA breaking activity and bans all those found to be in violation. If there remains 10 or more accounts (not toons), the election is granted as in option 3 in the OP, otherwise the clan is disbanded.
I would further suggest that the clan loses some large amount of clan rep for each of the banned toons from the investigation phase.
I voted other, as a lot of people have and for the same reasons too.
If a clan leader is banned (and yes we are talking about the banned leader, not the leader who died, or "dropped off the face of the earth". Those cases are different than what this poll is asking.), then the clan loses it leader and a new one cannot be appointed.
Is it fair to clan?? Well ... yeah it is. You should know you leader and what he/she does. If he participates in bannable actions, then you are taking a huge risk and have the chance of losing EVERYTHING that is in the Clan's WH.
Hopefully, the clan leader has given full rights to a few people so they can carry on with the clan functions as much as they can, but if not, then too bad on that as well.
The point is to know your clan, what they do, and if you decide to take the chance and join a clan whose leader is not legit, then you take the chance of losing out on a lot if he/she gets banned. That is the choice you made, so you will have to deal with the consequences of that choice.
tell me how ncsoft will know the leader died irl, or he just stopped play.
and i still dont see answer how u ppl see voting by members, if the clan have over 100 ppl..(boxing toons are also players) so big clans have like 200.
and what about clans with banned leaders like 2-3 chronicles ago..
I voted other, as a lot of people have and for the same reasons too.
If a clan leader is banned (and yes we are talking about the banned leader, not the leader who died, or "dropped off the face of the earth". Those cases are different than what this poll is asking.), then the clan loses it leader and a new one cannot be appointed.
Is it fair to clan?? Well ... yeah it is. You should know you leader and what he/she does. If he participates in bannable actions, then you are taking a huge risk and have the chance of losing EVERYTHING that is in the Clan's WH.
Hopefully, the clan leader has given full rights to a few people so they can carry on with the clan functions as much as they can, but if not, then too bad on that as well.
The point is to know your clan, what they do, and if you decide to take the chance and join a clan whose leader is not legit, then you take the chance of losing out on a lot if he/she gets banned. That is the choice you made, so you will have to deal with the consequences of that choice.
Wrong. You pay ur account, u play ur character. Its IMPOSSIBLE <-- read this again 10 times. to know what other guy is doing or not doing, being leg0t or not leg0t. UNLESS ur like CIA and u have a spycam over that person's shoulder 24/7.
You live in an hotel togheter with 200 ppl, u helped to build that hotel since when it was just a brick. 1 day the doorman that u all hired runs away with the hotel keys. U can live across the street of the hotel under the rain.
Clan leader is not "a doorman". I'm yet to see "a doorman" that can evict all the lodgers, sell the building, withdraw the hotel brand, close the hotel company and "cash out".
When you have a CL idiot that is banned, you at least can use your clan hall and clan skills while hoping that NCsoft may unban your CL. But when you have a CL idiot that is bored with the game and wants to cash out...
Another thing, its not the hundreds of ppl choice to be led by an idiot. If you know the game mechanics you would know that its CL choice who will be the next CL.
No matter who your CL wants to see as a successor, ultimately it's your and only your choice whether you want to see him your next CL or not. Learn to make your personal decisions and to take your personal responsibility for them.
2nd situation:
the only kid and bought toon its you probably
I have no need to share my personal email accounts with anyone.
tell me how ncsoft will know the leader died irl, or he just stopped play.
You can send them the official papers confirming his death. The problem is that they won't accept such papers, because they want the case to be opened by the original account owner - by the same dead person (yep, I know of such a case involving a Lineage 2 clan and NC NA).
So, we will have a situation when the clans whose leaders got banned by NCsoft receive second life from NCsoft, but the clans whose leaders did nothing wrong, just are unable to play anymore, get shafted. How can that be a "fair and constant policy", anyone...? :confused:
As this is an official thread and an official capacity to collect constructive feedback, I have removed all of the irrelevant, insulting, fighting and flammatory posts.
This question is a very delicate one. There is possibly no perfect answer, and obviously few people can agree on the same things. This is the very reason that we have made this poll to collect your feedback, as when it is closed it will be statistically analyzed to find the best possible common ground between everyone that gives a suggestion.
Please keep this thread clean and constructive. :cool:
Wrong. You pay ur account, u play ur character. Its IMPOSSIBLE <-- read this again 10 times. to know what other guy is doing or not doing, being leg0t or not leg0t. UNLESS ur like CIA and u have a spycam over that person's shoulder 24/7.
Cmon ppl, wake up be real.
Guess you have given up on addressing my points, too bad because I would be very interested in your response to my "all in" option in post #120 of this thread.
It may be impossible for you to know for certain, but given the evidence that the guy was banned and the ban was upheld, it seems likely that he was playing fast and loose with your clan's life.
Here is a suggestion that just occurred to me that may solve this, I hope Sace is watching closely.
1. When a clan leader is banned, the Dismiss, Leave and invite functions are all locked. Nobody joins or leaves the clan.
2. Three options are presented to the clan members:
a. Have an election for new clan leader
b. Disband the clan
c. Unlock the functions and leave it as is (i.e. current state)
If the clan selects "a", NCSoft does an investigation of all clan members for EULA breaking activity and bans all those found to be in violation. If there remains 10 or more accounts (not toons), the election is granted as in option 3 in the OP, otherwise the clan is disbanded.
I would further suggest that the clan loses some large amount of clan rep for each of the banned toons from the investigation phase.
I think this post has a lot of pretty good suggestions. Though asking NCSoft to investigate all the other clan members, that is pretty much over the top, so I think that should not be considered.
But, if the clan leader is banned -- remember, many people trust people and find that they have been in grave error. This happens every day in every walk of life. It is bound to happen in a game where people are pretty much unaccountable and faceless -- transfer of the leadership should happen, particularly because of the clan warehouse that every one in the clan worked on, most likely, and it has to stay there so the whole clan can know what is available to them . But there should be another penalty, like the loss of rep points, etc., or maybe adena. Something like that.
I think this post has a lot of pretty good suggestions. Though asking NCSoft to investigate all the other clan members, that is pretty much over the top, so I think that should not be considered.
Thanks for responding.
Removing the investigation of all other clan members completely invalidates the suggestion. The point was to allow the clan members to go "all in" as in a poker game. If you really want your clan to survive and you are a legit player, you vote for the "investigation and restore" plan. If you are not so legit you now have a serious problem.
Sace made the infamous "Know thy clan" post where it was explicitly stated that you could come under the watchful eye of the GM if some of your clan members are shown to be ELUA violators, this seems like a logical extension to that policy.
Again, if you are a legit clan you can get 2 benefits from the unfortunate event of the clan leader getting banned. You get your clan back and in the hands of a legit player and all the non-legit players are conveniently removed from your clan.
ye, i like the fact who people here are going "oh? how should i know that my clanleader was botting or rmt or that it was a bought char". yes ofc. like NOONE in teon knew that Redsky leader had a lvl 1 char farming in seed of destruction.
quite everyone who belongs to the involved clans.
everyone had once something todo with botting or other cheating activities. there are enough cheating programms for this game around, that alot people, or people you played with used. and dont even try know to say " oh no, i never did, and my clan never did, we are all legit". they know very good what their clanleaders did. and in the end the punishment is correct. the CL can use the cwh. so when he is banned, no clan, no cwh -> no items. it should stay like it is now. and people should admit, that what they did was wrong. when NC manages to revive those clans, they just get benefit from that, since they can just take the dusty items again out of the cwh.
this would be unfair for all real legit players. and it would be even unfair for all banned players. i have a banned character. do i have the possiblility to get my items back? NO FFS! i did this on my risk. like their leaders did it on their risk. i took my punishment. others took their punishment. now its the rest, the followers of the cheater CL's, should take and admit their punishment, instead of crying each day in petitions etc.
again conclusion for everyones fairness: NO TO ANY ACTION OF REVIVING
Another trick for the cheaters: make a separate toon as a CL of lvl 1+ clan with a clan warehouse. Ask your friend to make a toon to join your clan. Keep all your valuables that you don't currently need in that clan's WH. When you are banned, ask NCsoft to transfer the clan to your friend :rolleyes:
While we are trying to develop a service to transfer leadership fairly, clan affairs are ultimately the business of the clan alone, and not the staff. We have limited resources and time to offer to processing votes, so we ask that you consider this when brainstorming your suggestions.
A thing like this should have been implemented ages ago, a service to transfer leadership that is.
Players can keep playing in a clan like that but it is impossible to evolve like you well said Sace.
I voted for the 3rd option, like many players stated, it is the one that sounds more fair.
so, anyone have a sort of summery of what's going on in this thread?
i mean i see a lot of people are in favor of the Clan leader ban = clan dead, and want it to stay that way... i don't see too many new suggestions on how to do it, but i see a lot of people in favor of transfer leadership as well.
... on a sub note, can we also include when the clan leader accidentally dissolves the clan through leaving, without going through official dissolving procedures?
If you all like, I can post the metrics that I find after the poll closes. They will summarize what the common trends of answers were, with charts and graphs and that sort of thing. That wouldn't happen until a few days after the poll closes, though, about a week from now. :rolleyes:
Also, I acknowledge that there are lots of options and situations that are not covered by the poll. That's why the "Other" option is there, and we do want to hear all of your constructive suggestions! :)
The clan and clan warehouse are property of the clan leader. As with the clan leader's items and gear it should be lost forever.
Please don't change anything about this - don't give in to banned players who e-mail or phone you crying because their clan are losing out. It's their own fault and the clan should blame the leader, not you, so why change policy?
Once again, leave it how it is. Ban = dead clan.
+1 Agree with Purp , Banned leader = banned leader = Dead clan , always been like that in the past why change it now i see so many clans reform after a leader was banned , if u change the rules now then u gona have alot of old ppl spam pm you that they want the items from their old clans back aswell .
and tbh dont support those botters with giving their botter clannies their items back , Banned is banned , Make a new clan like everyone else
Their leader did know what the risk is for Botting , The Rules of L2 dont allow botting , Leader got banned for botting , Their own fault ,
Seems the only thing we will get here that will count in the end are votes from people that never posted and clearly seems to not care about they'r leader's bad actions but had a clan leader banned, forcing a thread to make them happy so they can recover everything.
Why? cause NCSOFT already seemed to take a position with the "policy regarding transferring clan leadership after the Clan Leader has been banned". Thats why you see so many unknown people voting here.
99% who voted OTHER and posted don't want the clan leadershipment restored. NCSOFT will take this into consideration?
I hope the powers that be will have a little foresight into just how big a can of worms they opened here.
If they allow any sort of "scott-free" transfer of the clan leadership of a banned clan leader they will have reversed years of settled rules on transfer of assets from a banned player to a non-banned player.
Consider the following:
Cheet1337: Hey friend, how about you loan me your gear so I can win this Olympiad Match?
Leg1tPlr: Sure, I trust you!
Cheet1337: Thanks friend, wish me luck!
Leg1tPlr: Good Luck!
-- GM_Meenie has banned Cheet1337 --
Leg1tPlr: QQ
If NCSoft allows this "service" how many people in "Leg1tPlr's" position will be lining up for return of their lost items? How much customer service time will be taken up by these requests?
As this is an official thread and an official capacity to collect constructive feedback, I have removed all of the irrelevant, insulting, fighting and flammatory posts.
This question is a very delicate one. There is possibly no perfect answer, and obviously few people can agree on the same things. This is the very reason that we have made this poll to collect your feedback, as when it is closed it will be statistically analyzed to find the best possible common ground between everyone that gives a suggestion.
Please keep this thread clean and constructive. :cool:
first, this is the way the game has been for 6 years. Everyone knows this is how it works. NcSoft is starting down a very slippery slope. It gets down to the ban itself. If the leader was cheating, whatever, the clan should loose everything. you all are making it so there are no consequences to any bad action anymore.
How about giving more people access to the clan warehouse, could it be because all the lin1 issues with items being replaced with arrows and costing the clan money and time??? These rules were put into place for reasons.
I am still at a loss as to why you are following down StarWar's trail when the entire industry knows that tale and why no one should ever do that kind of change again.
Wrong. You pay ur account, u play ur character. Its IMPOSSIBLE <-- read this again 10 times. to know what other guy is doing or not doing, being leg0t or not leg0t. UNLESS ur like CIA and u have a spycam over that person's shoulder 24/7.
Cmon ppl, wake up be real.
Really?? Are you that out of touch with your clan members to know what they are doing and what they are not. Really, REALLY?!?!?
In all the clans I have been in, it has been really easy to determine who was leveling legit and who was not. If you cannot figure that out, then maybe you need to become more involved in your clan and not out on your own all the time.
I vote Other. If the CL is banned for violating game rules then the account should be locked including clan admin features.
The account with CL title doesnt mean its the only account running the show. There are plenty of clans that give the title to an alt for various reasons including potentially EULA violating activities on the main account. Also look at servers that are dominated by an ally. They have alt accounts that hold castles for them.
Letting players reassign clan ownership to another one of their accounts means there is no real penalty for banning. I'm certain everyone can name one person on their server who was banned and came back with another toon. If not then turn on hero shout and you should see a list of these players between lines of smack talk.
Its bad enough with all the bots running around. Some are run by RMT companies but plenty are run as alts for 'real' players. If NCsoft was serious about maintaining its stance towards rule violations, i.e. banning, then all remnants of the offense should be wiped from the game as much as possible. Sure I would feel sorry for legit players losing hard won stuff in clan warehouse, but by the same token if the CL is botting or banned for other violations then I'm sure the clan coffer is lined with items obtained by dubious means.
One GM intervention I would advocate for is to have any clan owned properties go back on the market if an account is banned.
All of the above was written assuming NCsoft actually does something about rule violations. There was a time when I got results when petitioning or sending in support tickets but for over a year now the automated GM response is followed by....nothing.
I hope the powers that be will have a little foresight into just how big a can of worms they opened here.
If they allow any sort of "scott-free" transfer of the clan leadership of a banned clan leader they will have reversed years of settled rules on transfer of assets from a banned player to a non-banned player.
Consider the following:
If NCSoft allows this "service" how many people in "Leg1tPlr's" position will be lining up for return of their lost items? How much customer service time will be taken up by these requests?
I totally agree with you here. Player 1 loans Player 2 gear, Player 2 gets banned, too bad so sad.
I don't see that as being in scope of this particular poll however, this has to do specifically with clan leadership transfer.
As long as there is no scope creep of the originally stated poll, there really isn't a can of worms being opened.
Yes, we will be taking every opinion from this thread into consideration. We have not made a final decision as to whether the policy will be changing or not. When the thread was posted, we were leaning towards changing it, but after reading many of these posts, leaving the policy in tact is back on the table.
Thanks everyone for your posts. We are reading and discussing, just as you are. (Only with fewer flames and insults, I think. Keep it clean!) :)
If a clan leader gets banned for botting
u can assume he got his sp to level the clan by botting
wich makes the clan as illegit as the botter leader is
delete the clan
No one should keep a memory of a botter
Especially since everyone knows that botters just come back the next month,
by botting up a new character, and
if u allow them to transfer
the clan to one of their clannies, u'r just giving him his precious botted
up clan on a golden platter back.
so to me if the leader is a cheating botter
hurt him where it REALLY hurts
DELETE HIS CLAN
So if a clan leader get's banned. The clan is gone, period.
If the captain drowns, retires, chooses a new profession . . . sink the ship :-)
/back on topic
I notice the lack of another choice on the list . . . and that is the choice of leaving it the way it is. Sure, 'Other' is there but the lack of disclosing that choice indicates that NCSoft has seen the error of their ways, or atleast seen that what the 'norm' is has cost them some money by having other clan members leave the game.
IF you do something that consistently looses you customers THEN you change what it is that cost you the customers. If Then . . . it's how it works. I see some people say, this is how it has been and it should stay this way because it has always been this way. I'm glad the people that discovered the flat world didn't think that way forever.
Good job NCSoft, at addressing the concerns of a lot of players that were turned into victims by their clan leaders.
Yes, we will be taking every opinion from this thread into consideration. We have not made a final decision as to whether the policy will be changing or not. When the thread was posted, we were leaning towards changing it, but after reading many of these posts, leaving the policy in tact is back on the table.
Thanks everyone for your posts. We are reading and discussing, just as you are. (Only with fewer flames and insults, I think. Keep it clean!) :)
-Moxie
Tks a lot for your response, makes me feel better and have faifh again.
This may have been true in days past, ChikariShu, but not so now. With the option to change clan leadership, the Clan Leader is not necessarily the one who leveled the clan up. We are talking about 6 years of history here in a game, and many clans have changed hands. So your point may have been valid in the past, but it is no more.
I personally have never felt that the clan leader should be the only one with access to administration functions. There should be another person who has the ability to sign for sieges, remove things from the clan warehouse, etc. There are many many reasons to support this, not the least being that you just can't expect a clan leader to be available 24/7/365 for a game.
Yes, we will be taking every opinion from this thread into consideration. We have not made a final decision as to whether the policy will be changing or not. When the thread was posted, we were leaning towards changing it, but after reading many of these posts, leaving the policy in tact is back on the table.
Thanks everyone for your posts. We are reading and discussing, just as you are. (Only with fewer flames and insults, I think. Keep it clean!) :)
-Moxie
What policies? They don't exist as you change to suit certain people all the time.
I transferred leadership of my level 11 clan that had taken years to build up to someone I trusted at the time when I was sitting my finals. Unknown to me, this person had been botting on another character and got banned on all their characters. This meant my clan, that I had invested literally billions of my own adena into was gone overnight.
It was incredibly depressing to many of the 100+ players in the clan, many of whom left the game over the next few months.
In the cwh was ALL of our assets, s80 items when they were incredibly rare, crystals, things we had all worked towards gone.
I think that if a clan leader is banned, the leadership should be transferred to the person that had the leadership before them. This can be fail safed by transferring leadership to someone else that is trusted for a week if the prior CL quits.
If this was the case, our fantastic clan with all our skills and ch will be back.
It is FANTASTIC that NCSoft are not punishing everyone for one persons cheating behaviour. Please please please let me get my clan back.
I totally agree with you here. Player 1 loans Player 2 gear, Player 2 gets banned, too bad so sad.
I don't see that as being in scope of this particular poll however, this has to do specifically with clan leadership transfer.
As long as there is no scope creep of the originally stated poll, there really isn't a can of worms being opened.
I don't see a scope difference here. The situation is the same, you gave the clan leader your stuff, time, energy, money and loyalty, then he gets banned taking all that with him.
The scope of the assets may be different, but that doesn't really matter much.
If they allow clan leadership to change, they will have to give back all the stuff "loaned" to banned accounts too. That will lead to:
-- GM_MEANIE has banned Cheet1337 --
Cheet1337_2: Hey GM_MEANIE! I loaned all my gear to Cheet1337! Never mind that I am from the same IP address and only Level 1
I see few problem in the options given by the GMs:
Option 1) The member chosen personally by the banned clan leader .- It,s exploitable because the clan leader will select one account made by himself so even if he is banned he will never loss soemthing important, because having this option in mind he will be sure to save all his important stuff in the clan warehouse.
Option 2) The clan member that has been a member of the clan the longest .- What happens if he is inactive? What happens if nobody wants him as clan leader?
Option 3) The clan member elected by popular vote, and processed by NCsoft staff. .- Maybe the fairest system, but you shouldn,t need a certain amount of the votes, like 80% of the clan voting or so, because maybe 30% of the clan could be inactive or just doesn,t care to vote. So the only posibly option is to select as new clan leader the one that gets more votes from the clan members that were in the clan before the clan leader was banned. Even this system could be exployable and a clan leader could ask his clan member to vote for a toon of his property, but seems the fairest one, because in any case, the new clan leader could transfer the clan to a toon property of the old clan leader. So if you don,t put any clan of restriction or control about those transfers, every system will finish in the resturn of the clan to the old leader.
I don't see a scope difference here. The situation is the same, you gave the clan leader your stuff, time, energy, money and loyalty, then he gets banned taking all that with him.
This is simply untrue. You do not give your clan leader your time, you give your clan your time. If only the leader is banned, why should the clan lose all it worked towards?
I voted "Other" because i also think a clan leadership should not be reasigned. If the leader got perma banned he did something bad and even though lots of work are involved there from other clan members, the only person to be blamed is the clan leader.
Clan leaders should be the last ppl doing something wrong... after all... they have lots of ppl under their charge
I transferred leadership of my level 11 clan that had taken years to build up to someone I trusted at the time when I was sitting my finals. Unknown to me, this person had been botting on another character and got banned on all their characters. This meant my clan, that I had invested literally billions of my own adena into was gone overnight.
It was incredibly depressing to many of the 100+ players in the clan, many of whom left the game over the next few months.
In the cwh was ALL of our assets, s80 items when they were incredibly rare, crystals, things we had all worked towards gone.
I think that if a clan leader is banned, the leadership should be transferred to the person that had the leadership before them. This can be fail safed by transferring leadership to someone else that is trusted for a week if the prior CL quits.
If this was the case, our fantastic clan with all our skills and ch will be back.
It is FANTASTIC that NCSoft are not punishing everyone for one persons cheating behaviour. Please please please let me get my clan back.
I completely agree! Clan leadership should be transferred back to the person who was leader before the banned person.
No way should everyone lose out cos of one guy messing up and cheating. :(
I transferred leadership of my level 11 clan that had taken years to build up to someone I trusted at the time when I was sitting my finals. Unknown to me, this person had been botting on another character and got banned on all their characters. This meant my clan, that I had invested literally billions of my own adena into was gone overnight.
It was incredibly depressing to many of the 100+ players in the clan, many of whom left the game over the next few months.
In the cwh was ALL of our assets, s80 items when they were incredibly rare, crystals, things we had all worked towards gone.
I think that if a clan leader is banned, the leadership should be transferred to the person that had the leadership before them. This can be fail safed by transferring leadership to someone else that is trusted for a week if the prior CL quits.
If this was the case, our fantastic clan with all our skills and ch will be back.
It is FANTASTIC that NCSoft are not punishing everyone for one persons cheating behaviour. Please please please let me get my clan back.
May i use an example about this?
You work your entire life to buy a Ferrari, then a friend or familiar come and ask you to loan your ferrari to him so he can drive it, you have no secure but still loan it, the guy crashes with your ferrari to the point that it cannot be restored and die.
This is simply untrue. You do not give your clan leader your time, you give your clan your time. If only the leader is banned, why should the clan lose all it worked towards?
Can you take stuff out of the clan warehouse?
Can you boot the clan leader?
Can the clan leader boot you?
Consider the answers to the above questions and answer this:
You work your entire life to buy a Ferrari, then a friend or familiar come and ask you to loan your ferrari to him so he can drive it, you have no secure but still loan it, the guy crashes with your ferrari to the point that it cannot be restored and die.
I transferred leadership of my level 11 clan that had taken years to build up to someone I trusted at the time when I was sitting my finals. Unknown to me, this person had been botting on another character and got banned on all their characters. This meant my clan, that I had invested literally billions of my own adena into was gone overnight.
It was incredibly depressing to many of the 100+ players in the clan, many of whom left the game over the next few months.
In the cwh was ALL of our assets, s80 items when they were incredibly rare, crystals, things we had all worked towards gone.
I think that if a clan leader is banned, the leadership should be transferred to the person that had the leadership before them. This can be fail safed by transferring leadership to someone else that is trusted for a week if the prior CL quits.
If this was the case, our fantastic clan with all our skills and ch will be back.
It is FANTASTIC that NCSoft are not punishing everyone for one persons cheating behaviour. Please please please let me get my clan back.
ye, but everyone else knew he did.... . and like nobody else ever botted in a clan like that. nobody ever botted before joining such a clan. i doubt they didnt know that, and i bet many other people think exactly the same right now.
If a clan leader gets banned for botting
u can assume he got his sp to level the clan by botting
wich makes the clan as illegit as the botter leader is
delete the clan
No one should keep a memory of a botter
Especially since everyone knows that botters just come back the next month,
by botting up a new character, and
if u allow them to transfer
the clan to one of their clannies, u'r just giving him his precious botted
up clan on a golden platter back.
so to me if the leader is a cheating botter
hurt him where it REALLY hurts
DELETE HIS CLAN
First of all,
you can´t assume anything here lol.things aren´t always just black or white you know?
NCSoft did a great thing to consider this and making the poll. even seeing all those people being totally against it i am sure they will find some fair decision keeping the current players motivated to carry on logging in every day and play.
i am very happy about this topic.not because i was personally involved into a case of CL bann,but for the chance many many players that aren´t banned get here to maybe "recover"(sry i lack the english word) the loss of many hours/days/month/years of great teamwork inside a clan. it would maybe even bring back players that quitted because of things like that.
i can maybe speak for lots of people from teon server that we are grateful for the fact of this consideration. i trust in your impartial ways of handeling this and curious to see the results :)
A Ferrari is a real life item. How can you compare it? In real life, if you die, can someone resurrect you? Possibly, but that is another subject. You can't compare real life scenarios to a game.
People who think a clan is "owned" by the clan leader completely miss the part where this game is about teamwork and cooperation. Generally in all situations there are leaders taking their place. Some deserve it, some do not... it is hardly their glory that is reflected in the clan: it is the result of great teamwork. The clan belongs to the clan as a whole.
Seems those of you who think a clan should be destroyed if the CL is banned are really just frustrated and angry about the abuses of botting and such more so than the real subject at hand.
i agree with that real life example stated ferrari
U don't loan or transfer a clan to annyone even if u'r in exams
or work or whatever real life set-back you might have..
there's only one rule in life u must trust and that is :
EVERYBODY LIES!
so if u can't personally go to the door of the person
u lend u'r things to(to punch him in the face), DON'T lend them!
But one other thing is true:
when a leader is banned
the belongings of the clan warehouse should get divided back to the
clan members after thrurrow investigation of each clan member.
And yes, by the mistake of one, the big lot pays the price.
if a company leader makes a mistake and goes bankrupt
all his employees are fired, .... but , just like in real life
a fired person can rely on social help
so here there also should be social help ingame
and this by redistributing the contents of the clan warehouse
the ferrari example is just lol. can you fit 200 ppl inside 1 ferrari? no.
we're talking about a Boing 747 that got a pilot assigned for the previous pilot. Do 200 passengers have to die bc the pilot died?
Answer is no. They didnt even choose the pilot, was the other guy. Just put another pilot in place and dont let the Boing crash.
We're talking about lvl 11 clans here with all skills. Most of the guys saying no are just clueless of what this means.
Do you personally interview the pilot before getting on the plane?
If for some reason you can claim with a straight face that you do, would you get on the plane if the pilot got his wings from the "Wile E. Coyote school of flying thingamagigs"?
People here re talking about u cant know if ur members bot before join ur clan, if ur CL bots or not, etc... And i say: GJ NcSoft
A clan cant take care of what re doing the members with their accounts, u cant know what is doing ur CL with the other chars who nobody knows their names, and the same with the chars of clan members so: Why if a CL bot with a dwarft or any other char of his account (and not CL char) u will punish 200+ ppl who doesnt have any notice of his leader was botting? And all the CL who were banned was because the break the EULA? GMs re humans and they can ban by error an inocent guy, i think this is a great system to keep clans alive or who wants to leave his lvl 11+ clan with alot skills ch in a big city etc... and start a new clan lvl 1 and loose ch, castle, cwh items, etc..? NOBODY WANTS TO LOOSE WHO THAT THEY WORK FOR IT!
Ty NcSoft for understand to those clan members who re crying because they cant have castle, cant get cwh items, etc... really ty.
Sace, first of all, I want to thank you for bringing this controversial and still debatable topic into the forum:
- I have selected the 3rd option "elect someone from the clan by popular vote and provide this to NCSoft". This is the reason why, I have read in forums that in many cases a full party was banned. This party can have the leader, sub-leader, captains, etc etc. So, if we select the option to have the leadership go to the second in command, and a party gets banned with all the top tiers of a clan, we will run into the same situation again.
- Many people states that a clan leader represents or is the icon of the clan and that is totally true. But, what happens when this person does something against the EULA in the back of the entire clan? The entire clan will be punished because someone's fault. Clan members do not deserve that.
- In the same way, if the clan leader was banned because breaking the EULA, I don't think he has to have the moral right to appoint who will be the one that is going to be the next clan leader. That is why the clan members should vote and select that person.
voted other.
because i am not sure what is better.
people usually have boxes of their own in clan to exp with them.
in clan member/leader vote case if clan leader gets ban and he/she is liked by clan members, his alt would get clan leadership and the story would go as if nothing happened.
to let others than clan members to vote for clan leader is not logical, because enemies will try to ruin the opposing clan so they will try to choose someone irresponsible or greedy or in any way possible to destroy the clan after.
but to say to leave as it is is not good also. real life issues happens. if i am not mistaken there was case when clan leader died in accident and clan had to die with him, because nc rejected to transfer clan leadership to other person. in cases like this it would be good to use this service. sorry if i am making this story out ( i am sure i heard it...)
so i guess i say if clan leader gets ban - no possibility to transfer, in other case- transfer
ofc to contradict myself i could say that it depends on the goal of the game.
if i think that the point of game is to have opposing strong clan, then if their clan leaders get ban, i could loose strong rival because some of people will simply quit game in consequence of that, so better allow for banned leader alt to take the clan again and i could still play my happy game.
other small bonus would be that finally petition wars wouldn't be so important, because at least clan leader position is safe.
so i dont know what is best, i just shared my opinion :)
p.s. if to have those transfers i gues best case would be Armenua)
All clans have a sub-leader. Perhaps there should be a title for that, and assigned to be leader in these cases.
A Ferrari is a real life item. How can you compare it? In real life, if you die, can someone resurrect you? Possibly, but that is another subject. You can't compare real life scenarios to a game.
People who think a clan is "owned" by the clan leader completely miss the part where this game is about teamwork and cooperation. Generally in all situations there are leaders taking their place. Some deserve it, some do not... it is hardly their glory that is reflected in the clan: it is the result of great teamwork. The clan belongs to the clan as a whole.
Seems those of you who think a clan should be destroyed if the CL is banned are really just frustrated and angry about the abuses of botting and such more so than the real subject at hand.
reposted for your convenience:
Can you take stuff out of the clan warehouse?
Can you boot the clan leader?
Can the clan leader boot you?
Consider the answers to the above questions and answer this:
This is simply untrue. You do not give your clan leader your time, you give your clan your time. If only the leader is banned, why should the clan lose all it worked towards?
You do not lose anything except access to the clan WH. And really that his what this is all about, isn't it? The stuff in the clan WH.
So okay here is a solution. To those who say that they want to be able to change the clan leader because they worked to make the clan what it is. Fine. You can have a new clan leader. No problem at all.
The penalty, however, is that your clan WH is cleared out. This way you get to keep your clan, have a new leader, keep any castle, fort, clan hall that you may have, but it is going to cost you everything in your clan WH to do it.
I know that people are going to say, "But I put all my gear in the clan WH!!" My response: You should not have done that, you have your own WH and it has a lot of space in it and you can even expand that space if you want. Keep your own gear in your private WH. Anything in the clan WH belongs to the clan leader only as he is the only one who can withdraw from it.
tabbimae your arguments are just silly and tnx to all ppl that play on dead servers live servers that got their cls banned from many reasons wont be unbanned :) hypocrisy 100%
why you didnt went to official board tabbimae + other board legit omg warriors when silenthoorrors exploited their skills and got banned for it PLUS they got unbanned because ncsoft think that removing their skills is enough punishment . So wheres fairness here if someone geting banned for example : SAME i say SAME email : ACC 1 pure legitnes like holy virgin ACC 2 : pure evil of unlegintess power acc 2 got banned acc 2 follow same path because of same email adress . Wheres logic here ?
What you will gain tabb. from preventing nc to return unban clans that farmed every epics For YEARS and all loot was in clan wh ? any satisfaction ?
ps. knights of royal guards should have same rights as clan leader ( at least access to clan warehouse ) .
A Ferrari is a real life item. How can you compare it? In real life, if you die, can someone resurrect you? Possibly, but that is another subject. You can't compare real life scenarios to a game.
People who think a clan is "owned" by the clan leader completely miss the part where this game is about teamwork and cooperation. Generally in all situations there are leaders taking their place. Some deserve it, some do not... it is hardly their glory that is reflected in the clan: it is the result of great teamwork. The clan belongs to the clan as a whole.
Seems those of you who think a clan should be destroyed if the CL is banned are really just frustrated and angry about the abuses of botting and such more so than the real subject at hand.
Ok ill change the example. Your family grow a International company, some you guys decide to choose someone to lead it, the guy make very bad investiments and your company shatter and close the doors, you had 200 employees workign for you. Can you have your company back? No you must start all the way up from zero.
Game copy life and adds fantasy on it, but the game engine is like the real life man.
I also fully aggree with this:
Can you take stuff out of the clan warehouse?
Can you boot the clan leader?
Can the clan leader boot you?
Consider the answers to the above questions and answer this:
Who owns the clan?
You may not like the idea of the clan leader being the owner of the clan but that is how the clan is designed, not as a S.A. corp with lots of owners as you guys states.
reposted for your convenience:
I know you think you are being slick and cunning with this post, but it is simply self-serving. IMO, it is these very issues that need to be adjusted in a game that has long outgrown the status of a clan leader being the sole owner of a clan. As with the feudal system that the game was mirroring when it was created, that system ultimately failed and was replaced with a new system more magnanimous. When the clans were changed from 40 players to 100+ with units and all that and the ability to change clan leaders, the viewpoint that you hold should have been advanced with those changes.
@Terry: Hmm. You just want the hard rules of life to be absolute and reflected in this game because it somehow makes u feel vindicated about your perception of "bad" actions of others. I think the game needs to change to suit its current state of being. And if fantasy is added onto the real life reflection in a game, then clans should be able to claim their goods from the cwh of a banned leader. While they should be aware and careful about the quality of their players and leaders, they should not be responsible for someone else's actions in the end.
And I agree. Leaders of the Knight units and Guard units need to have SOME quality that rewards them. As it is right now, they are just figureheads. Giving them access to administrative duties is a good idea.
All of you guys trying to dig the grave of all the clan that got CL banned. Do you realize that GM's are thinking about this action randomly? No.
They are doing this as a feedback from us, the L2 community. Because us, the ppl affected by this problem mailed the NCSoft support and asked for help for this unfair situation. Just in Teon 2 major clans got banned CL's. It's 200 ppl clan x2 = 400 live players mailing and asking for a change in the unfair system. 400 is more than the total active population in the servers where u guys come from.
Its just suprising to see how much power u forum warriors have compared with those hundreds of ppl asking for this change. But its no problem, im sure the numbers will speak for themselves in the end. I just hope the GM team will listen the L2 community and not the forum warriors.
You do not lose anything except access to the clan WH. And really that his what this is all about, isn't it? The stuff in the clan WH.
So okay here is a solution. To those who say that they want to be able to change the clan leader because they worked to make the clan what it is. Fine. You can have a new clan leader. No problem at all.
The penalty, however, is that your clan WH is cleared out. This way you get to keep your clan, have a new leader, keep any castle, fort, clan hall that you may have, but it is going to cost you everything in your clan WH to do it.
I know that people are going to say, "But I put all my gear in the clan WH!!" My response: You should not have done that, you have your own WH and it has a lot of space in it and you can even expand that space if you want. Keep your own gear in your private WH. Anything in the clan WH belongs to the clan leader only as he is the only one who can withdraw from it.
I really like this idea!! It seems like a fair compromise between both sides.
Keep the clan and the skills (think how many rep points it takes to get all those clan skills - that is a clan work not an individual's). Keep the clan hall. Delete everything from the cwh.
All of you guys trying to dig the grave of all the clan that got CL banned. Do you realize that GM's are thinking about this action randomly? No.
They are doing this as a feedback from us, the L2 community. Because us, the ppl affected by this problem mailed the NCSoft support and asked for help for this unfair situation. Just in Teon 2 major clans got banned CL's. It's 200 ppl clan x2 = 400 live players mailing and asking for a change in the unfair system. 400 is more than the total active population in the servers where u guys come from.
Its just suprising to see how much power u forum warriors have compared with those hundreds of ppl asking for this change. But its no problem, im sure the numbers will speak for themselves in the end. I just hope the GM team will listen the L2 community and not the forum warriors.
Thank you
so we are not part of the community because we have another opinion then you do?
All of you guys trying to dig the grave of all the clan that got CL banned. Do you realize that GM's are thinking about this action randomly? No.
They are doing this as a feedback from us, the L2 community. Because us, the ppl affected by this problem mailed the NCSoft support and asked for help for this unfair situation. Just in Teon 2 major clans got banned CL's. It's 200 ppl clan x2 = 400 live players mailing and asking for a change in the unfair system. 400 is more than the total active population in the servers where u guys come from.
Its just suprising to see how much power u forum warriors have compared with those hundreds of ppl asking for this change. But its no problem, im sure the numbers will speak for themselves in the end. I just hope the GM team will listen the L2 community and not the forum warriors.
Thank you
With the time you guys flooded the support with unban and transfer petions you could already started a new lvl 11 clan, and not make the mistake to transfer your clan leadership or don't care in watch what your leader is doing.
tabbimae your arguments are just silly and tnx to all ppl that play on dead servers live servers that got their cls banned from many reasons wont be unbanned :) hypocrisy 100%
why you didnt went to official board tabbimae + other board legit omg warriors when silenthoorrors exploited their skills and got banned for it PLUS they got unbanned because ncsoft think that removing their skills is enough punishment . So wheres fairness here if someone geting banned for example : SAME i say SAME email : ACC 1 pure legitnes like holy virgin ACC 2 : pure evil of unlegintess power acc 2 got banned acc 2 follow same path because of same email adress . Wheres logic here ?
What you will gain tabb. from preventing nc to return unban clans that farmed every epics For YEARS and all loot was in clan wh ? any satisfaction ?
ps. knights of royal guards should have same rights as clan leader ( at least access to clan warehouse ) .
OK, I'm going to assume you are saying that I should have objected to The Great Luna Unbanning, sort of like I did here: http://boards.lineage2.com/showpost.php?p=2871436&postcount=128 I guess maybe that its a little too much effort to do a search and find out that I have been both consistent and vocal on these types of issues in the past.
I think you are saying that your clan leader was banned without cause. I have dealt with that multiple times in this thread, but I guess you missed it. For your convenience here is just one of the times I made the point:
In today's Lineage II universe it is extremely hard to get a ban that sticks. What exactly does someone have to do the get a ban nowadays? How amazingly reckless do you have to be in order to get a ban upheld? Seriously look at some of the videos, some of the stories like the great Luna unbanning and tell me with a straight face that a ban that gets upheld after appeal is unfair.
Given that your clan leader's ban was upheld I have no choice but to suggest that it was well deserved and your banned clan leader knew he was putting the clan at risk by engaging in exceptionally blatant EULA breaking activities. Since he was charged with upholding the honor and status of the clan, it is his failure and not NCSoft's.I guess you could still try to make the case that your clan leader is a pure as the driven snow, but I don't think you will succeed.
Of course I can't really be sure but I also think you are attacking me because you think I will get some sort of personal benefit for denying the clan leader change. This is very far from the truth except in the sense that I will benefit from a consistent set of rules that I and everyone else can play by. I don't play on your server and I have no idea who Redsky or whatever the other clan is or what their merits are, I just want to see the rules be enforced consistently.
Rules, consistently enforced, are what make society work. That is my only goal in this discussion.
as a clanleader you gotta be resposible for your clan and all actions, including your own! the clanleader is the one who is OWNING the clan. as somebody mentioned earlier, he/she is the powerful person, didnt see a possibility in the game to degrade a clanleader by his followers by voting or rebelling, nor kick him/her. but he/she can do that win any clanmember of his/her choice. so as its said, clan belongs to the clanleader. clanleader down = clan down.
My reason for this is:
If you are the clan leader and you know that what you are doing is violating (exploiting, botting, using 3rd party software to assist in gameplay, buy/sell adena etc etc) the EULA that you get everytime you login to the game, then you are an idiot for putting your clan at risk.
As long as you follow the EULA (like every player should be doing) then you won't get banned. I know some clans in L2 that has been active since prelude with the same clan leader and they are still here because they are following the EULA.
And as purp said "Once again, leave it how it is. Ban = dead clan."
You do not lose anything except access to the clan WH. And really that his what this is all about, isn't it? The stuff in the clan WH.
So okay here is a solution. To those who say that they want to be able to change the clan leader because they worked to make the clan what it is. Fine. You can have a new clan leader. No problem at all.
The penalty, however, is that your clan WH is cleared out. This way you get to keep your clan, have a new leader, keep any castle, fort, clan hall that you may have, but it is going to cost you everything in your clan WH to do it.
I know that people are going to say, "But I put all my gear in the clan WH!!" My response: You should not have done that, you have your own WH and it has a lot of space in it and you can even expand that space if you want. Keep your own gear in your private WH. Anything in the clan WH belongs to the clan leader only as he is the only one who can withdraw from it.
do you play in lineage2 or just randomly coming to random forums saying [censored] clan leader have/can :
- cast castle
- set manor ( or set others to do so )
- buy clan skills
- invite/kick ( if he didnt set option )
- access to cwh ( well he cant delegate others to enter it ah why its called CLAN WH ?:D )
so nop you dont loose anything at all when your cl get banned , and all banned ppl want change of cl to get access to clan wh . If u played in l2 you was propably in some anarchy clan w/o any rules , because most of top clan got simple rules : LOOT TO CLAN WH and after it will be completed it will be given to players .
Clan wh is clan properity not only clan leader but only he has administration rights to take items out so cut the
The community here is NOTHING like the community in Korea,
making a clan high level shure takes a hell of a lot of efforts
of everyone in it, especially when in a clan u can almost never
have everyone on at the same time.
Most clans are composed of as well american european asian Russian etc...
Wich means that in one clan u have persons on 24/7
-wich means trouble:
it's the principle of the left hand that doesn't know what the right hand does....
The problems faced by banned clanleaders are:
1.Loss of ability to engage in sieges etc
2.Loss of contents of the clan warehouse
3.Loss of leadership in global
Those are the 3 issue's.
Those are also the issue's that the remaining clannies must face
whne they fall whitout valid leadership from one day to the next.
But i'm posing this issue now in a verry diffirent shade of light...
Banning ok, but what if u'r clanleader dies ?
Thise happened on sieghardt in the times clan leadership could not be
transferred, a clan leader of a verry good clan died. He had cancer
he was one of best leaders i've seen always ready to help everyone
and in those days to change a title u had to be in front of a person
and her really did that effort, big or small, after his death, the clan died
with him, even tho his members would have liked to keep it alive in his
memory.
I would prefer to put it in this light
instead of in this obscure field of treatury and deceat
do you play in lineage2 or just randomly coming to random forums saying [censored] clan leader have/can :
- cast castle
- set manor ( or set others to do so )
- buy clan skills
- invite/kick ( if he didnt set option )
- access to cwh ( well he cant delegate others to enter it ah why its called CLAN WH ?:D )
so nop you dont loose anything at all when your cl get banned , and all banned ppl want change of cl to get access to clan wh . If u played in l2 you was propably in some anarchy clan w/o any rules , because most of top clan got simple rules : LOOT TO CLAN WH and after it will be completed it will be given to players .
Clan wh is clan properity not only clan leader but only he has administration rights to take items out so cut the
So you agree the the clan leader OWNS the clan, thanks.
But i'm posing this issue now in a verry diffirent shade of light...
Banning ok, but what if u'r clanleader dies ?
Thise happened on sieghardt in the times clan leadership could not be
transferred, a clan leader of a verry good clan died. He had cancer
he was one of best leaders i've seen always ready to help everyone
and in those days to change a title u had to be in front of a person
and her really did that effort, big or small, after his death, the clan died
with him, even tho his members would have liked to keep it alive in his
memory.
I would prefer to put it in this light
instead of in this obscure field of treatury and deceat
I fully support clan leadership transfer in this case, but Sace made it clear that the discussion was about a banned clan leader, not IRL dead.
Answer the question.
No. You know the answer. It is precisely this that I feel is a weak link in the current system and should be changed, and is what this thread is about.
Aside from the fact that you are a little self-important thinking that your points and questions are the ultimate response and proof, you really have no right to demand anything from me :)
I fully support clan leadership transfer in this case, but Sace made it clear that the discussion was about a banned clan leader, not IRL dead.
In both cases the clan leader is unable to log in (for different reasons yes, but still the same predicament), and change clan leadership on his/her own.
In both cases the clan leader is unable to log in (for different reasons yes, but still the same predicament), and change clan leadership on his/her own.
So where do we draw the line?
Who draws the line?
You?
If you, why you?
One case the clan leader is unable to log into the banned account, but can log other accounts and is still a dirty dirty cheater.
The other case is the clan leader cannot log into any account or do anything for that matter. Since the account is not banned we can infer that the dead clan leader didn't break the EULA sufficiently enough to be banned and if alive could just log in and change leadership.
You guys wanna know something funny? NCsoft transferred leadership from a banned clanleader on bartz back in decemeber and refuse to do it for anyone else. Biggest e-bayer in the history of bartz finally got banned and they saved his clan!
You guys wanna know something funny? NCsoft transferred leadership from a banned clanleader on bartz back in decemeber and refuse to do it for anyone else. Biggest e-bayer in the history of bartz finally got banned and they saved his clan!
No. You know the answer. It is precisely this that I feel is a weak link in the current system and should be changed, and is what this thread is about.
Aside from the fact that you are a little self-important thinking that your points and questions are the ultimate response and proof, you really have no right to demand anything from me :)
So we agree that under the current rules the clan is owned 100% by the clan leader. From this we can start a meaningful discussion.
I agree that the rules could be changed to allow some flexibility and your point about the clan rule change back in the day that expanded numbers and eliminated allies of more then 3 clans caused this issue to be a bigger problem than is was pre-rule change.
I still think that the banning of the clan leader (or any officer) is a major development in the life of a clan and is cause for the entire clan to make some very difficult choices about the future. I put forward an "all in" plan that very few have commented on. I suspect it is because it exposes the real issue that we have been tip-toeing around... But that's just me being self-important again.
You guys wanna know something funny? NCsoft transferred leadership from a banned clanleader on bartz back in decemeber and refuse to do it for anyone else. Biggest e-bayer in the history of bartz finally got banned and they saved his clan!
I think it should be the 1e captain if he is banned, the 2e captain, 1st knight captain, 2e knight captain, 3e knight captain...if they are alllll banned what can I say. Though voting may give some interesting results, like people without any prior position becoming leader :) Like voting more....
This whole topic is rediculous. So many clan leaders have gotten banned through-out the years and now NCsoft cares? Bartz essentially died because of DonnyDarkko getting banned for someone else in his clan doing something wrong. And now, after a year of petitions of NCsoft saying "We won't change your clan leadership" and 95% of the renovatio that played on bartz quit the game, now NCsoft cares? While your GMs at the same time ran around on other servers chaning clan leaderships and reinstating clan leaderships. This is rediculous.
1) Is right to punish clan for clan leader?
Yes, clan leader is at this moment "owner" of the clan.
a) Is that right? Obviously clans evolved to very different thing than the clans at the beginning of L2 when noone complained about clan beeing leader's possession. I am quite sure that every decent clan and clan leader would appreciate if they could give rights to manipulate with cwh and do otehr things only leader can to other members. So the fact that leader is owner of clan is true, yet its only becuase ncsoft is blind to real needs of players very often.
b) Does it make right to punish clan becuase leader is owner? In real life its very common obviously. But ppl play game to run from real life, to run from the endless responsibility, they wanna care less and have fun more. Should 200 ppl be punished for mistake of 1? Why, what will that make better? Would it give more fun to anyone? No. Would it punish ppl who should be punished? No. Would it make servers more alive? Quite otherwise, since several players quit after putting so much effort in clan to see it wasted becuase of punishing clan together with leader.
2) Leader cheater.
a) Can you know if your leader is cheater or nope? Yes in lot of cases, but not all cases. There are lot of ways how to cheat and how to get banned even. Many of those ways are easy to hide or impossible to find out for regular player. Is it your fault that you couldnt realize/find out that he cheats? Why it should be, I dont pay my money to be investigating who is cheating and who not and share their responsibility. Its NCSoft job, and they do it well sometimes, thus the leader is banned. Should I be punished for that, should I lose all the play time i invested in the clan? As i said before, I dont think so, its not real life, NCsoft should be helping those who play for fun who invest months/years in their game and kinda protect them.
b) Is it my responsbility that i lost clan when i am in clan which leader is cheater? Most of you say yes. I say not that much. You know, mmos, especialy Lineage. Without strong communities this game would die long time ago. And L2 is unfortunately in such state where you cant avoid cheaters completely (even if you think you do, you cant, really, trust me). In endgame play its pretty much only about community and having fun with them. If I am in clan with lot of cool ppl, and the leader starts cheating or i find out he was cheating. I dont give a , I wont leave clan, becuase its pretty much the only thing most ppl play for, their clan, its community and history. If you destroy clan together with leader, you are making the game worse, you are again punishing community, ppl, players who are not here to blame. Its kinda gray area, but try to loose your prejudice (*spelling), try to see ppl pov and think out of the box for a moment.
This thread is here not for the cheaters, its here for you/us to make the game kinda survive longer to keep its playerbase and make it more fun place. Does the fact that the ppl get their cwh and clan back hurt the legit ppl anyhow? I dont think so, most those endgame players would probably pwn most superlegit ppl playing casualy anyway. Its not about that, its about loosing the time some ppl invested in game and discouradging them from playing etc.
And to add something, i was always very legit player, always against cheaters. And I still hate cheating, radars, botting, ebaying, etc etc. And I have nothing in redsky CWH i could claim or which would help me anyhow. I just think that keeping the servers alive and keeping the main community alive is the most important thing for this old game. And punishing ppl for their leader or for beeing blind to his cheating wont do any good to anyone. The cheaters still get punished and they deserve it, dont get me wrong in this. I am talking about the legit members of "banned" clan.
A Clan leader should put the Clan in the 1st place, if its own actions make is account closed it is own fault, not appart that i never seen any Clan Leader being banned for reasons that the members of the clan did not know or supported.
So this is a few out sense to me as a clan leader, but off course i got used to see the goodies going just to the same side over years...
Quess this will be the 6th anniversary event: Revive the Clan from Banned players
As a matter of fact I realy don't care. Some will be happy, some will be mad. in the end I don't believe it will make any difference anyways. As allways way to late to start something like this but we'll see what happens.
personally i think ppl should think b4 they put stuff in cwh. It asks whether u understand that only clan ldr can retrieve the stuff... ur alrdy assuming they aint scammers or else c wh would be empty. If u find they are banned c'est la vie. Move on nothing to see here.
does it ppl up ? yes. Should ncsoft care? no.
edit um sace ur fiters suxxxxxx...
in a lightbulb
screwdriver
use a to hang a picture...
What an ignorant and small minded opinion (kudos to your forum name).
Your signature largely summarizes why this is true:
27 toons; 3 clans; 1 ally; all me........(and my wife)
You have CLEARLY not been part of ANYTHING significant or larger then yourself so try not to comment on things you have no idea about it only makes you look ridiculous.
Quess this will be the 6th anniversary event: Revive the Clan from Banned players
As a matter of fact I realy don't care. Some will be happy, some will be mad. in the end I don't believe it will make any difference anyways. As allways way to late to start something like this but we'll see what happens.
I agree totally
i'm bit fed up with the rules changing all the time
on about everything
It keeps bending and twisting in all senses, its not fair to those
who never had the chance in the past
How will u mence them ?
They already lost everything
You might want to look at creating a few dorfs in order to better organize your stuff.
Just a little tip from your good friend TabbiMae.
BTW: What is all that top stuff doing rotting in a WH when you probably have peeps that could use it?
Obviously you've never heard of this thing called... OLYMPIAD. Those items that sit in CWH are typically used for Oly purpose by different enforcers and shared until they are given their own. Vesper, Icarus, etc that hasn't been distributed to a player in need, or there is no player in immediate need and may be requested by a clan member for use, or used by the CL to trade on the market to obtain gear that is needed? All epics/vesper are discussed by the leadership GROUP before being distributed to the deserving person, which can take a few days to weeks before being handed out. SA Crystals... often the clan has a stockpile of SA crys 11-16 in the CWH to be pulled out at the appropriate raid to level them, beyond those already sitting on the other leaders. Please don't be ignorant before you try and add your two cents in.
Then again when you are in a worthless zerg on a dead server, I can understand it is difficult for you to see the results of the epics you do attend.
I don't see a scope difference here. The situation is the same, you gave the clan leader your stuff, time, energy, money and loyalty, then he gets banned taking all that with him.
The scope of the assets may be different, but that doesn't really matter much.
If they allow clan leadership to change, they will have to give back all the stuff "loaned" to banned accounts too. That will lead to:
No, scope is quite different, surprised you can't see it.
In one case, one person loans another gear. The loanie is irresponsible. It costs you both but that's the cost of trust in such a case. 1 for 1.
In a clan situation, its significantly different. Take for example a clan hall. You aren't giving the clan leader fundage in order to buy the CH for him/herself. It's a clan asset, it is being put in place for the good of all those involved with the clan.
Clan leader is now banned/dead/falls off the face of the earth. He does not just lose items for any one person, but assets that affect more than just those people that donated to the CH purchase.
Now add in the fact that as an effect of a server merge, those funds now are automatically thrown back in the CWH.
If you fail to see the difference in scenarios, I will leave it there. It's different than loaning someone a weapon or gear of some sort. And it has a vast impact on a great many more people than just those involved in the giving and recieving of adena or items.
I voted "other". If the clan leader gets banned, it's his own fault and there should be a punishment. All the options you listed could just result in one of the old clan leader's alts getting leadership and the banned clan leader would just say "ah well, I'll just powerlvl up another toon then".
The clan leader holds the responsibility for what happens to the clan, and so if he gets banned, the clan should die, too. I was already against the "transfer leadership" option when it was introduced, since I believe the way clans were intended to be like when L2 started was that the clan members are the supporters of the clan leader on his way to being a castle lord. And if that leader leaves game for whatever reason, the clan should be dead. All the quests up to clan lvl 5 are about the clan leader doing quests and sacrificing his own sp to strengthen the clan. Now, with the leadership transfer option, it does not really matter anymore who is clan leader, which is a bit sad.
Anyway, the question was "should clan leadership be transferred to somebody else if the clan leader gets banned?" and I say: no, let the clan die. If you're unhappy about losing your lvl 11 clan, maybe the clan leader should not have botted then.
+9999
If you introduce this system then 100% of the time it would go to the clan leader's alt. You are offering players a safe pass for their gear from items. Place items in the clan wh. Worst case happens and the leader gets banned, then no problem, the alt with the "safe" account has control and can get the items. This idea is just one step away from a paid service which allows players to get their banned accounts back.
It also opens the door to many other issues. What is the clan leader "disappears"? The clan leader doesn't log in for ?1 month, 2? 3? what happens then? And what about the case where the clan leader is banned but then gets the ban reversed and then has his account back? Does he get the clan back? And what if the "temporary" leader took items from the clan wh? And what about NC Soft's policy of not informing the gaming community about banned players. Currently other players have no way to know if another player is banned. So now will we be informed if clan leaders are banned?
You might want to look at creating a few dorfs in order to better organize your stuff.
Just a little tip from your good friend TabbiMae.
BTW: What is all that top stuff doing rotting in a WH when you probably have peeps that could use it?
+9999
If you introduce this system then 100% of the time it would go to the clan leader's alt. You are offering players a safe pass for their gear from items. Place items in the clan wh. Worst case happens and the leader gets banned, then no problem, the alt with the "safe" account has control and can get the items. This idea is just one step away from a paid service which allows players to get their banned accounts back.
you people act like its a months work to level a character illgeitly to lvl 85 or something...lol. Act like people have lvl 85 fully subbed alts just waiting around for when/if they get banned to transfer leadership to. It takes like maybe 2 years to level a character to 85.
A clan leadership is a position of great power. With this power comes responsibility. Yet, some of them chose to act irresponsible, despite knowing fully well the consequences of their actions, not only for themselves but also for other people who put their trust in them. As such, I say: Let them, and their clans, face the just consequences, let the clan die and its assets - clan warehouse, clan halls, castles and so on - be removed from the game, or freed for use of other, more responsible clans, in case of persistent assets like clan halls.
A clan leadership is a position of great power. With this power comes responsibility. Yet, some of them chose to act irresponsible, despite knowing fully well the consequences of their actions, not only for themselves but also for other people who put their trust in them. As such, I say: Let them, and their clans, face the just consequences, let the clan die and its assets - clan warehouse, clan halls, castles and so on - be removed from the game, or freed for use of other, more responsible clans, in case of persistent assets like clan halls.
Fully agree
u burnt u'r but by sitting on the stove
sit on the blisters then.
No respect for botters whatshowever
annyone lame enough to let a program do things for themselves
ingame instead of fully realizing what levleing is all about.
Annyone can do that, no merit at all.
(and no u idiots it's not about gaining XP points and leveling fast)
Then u'll have earned the right to talk, once u done it all by urself
and with the help of live people.
and for heavens sake
there's more important issue's then this really
this is really one of them rich for the rich kinda issue's
did some rich kids daddy came to complain or what ?
Can you delete my vote so I can vote again? since the last option was added after I voted
I can't delete your vote, but after we added that option I made an edit note in the OP saying that if you mentioned that you liked that idea (no action taken) in your commentary, it will count towards that options score when the poll closes and all the statistics are assessed.
So if you already said something to the nature of 'no action taken,' don't worry, it will be included in the poll summary. :)
No Action...
leader banned = dead clan
in a unlegit type of clan any leader elected by members or the past leader would most likely be an extention of the previous banned leader
This opens up a dark area, where NC is saying "botting is ok if you are a clan leader since all the items you get from botting will be safe".
This makes no sense. You are assuming that a ban is strictly for botting, and it's not really. There are many other reasons for banning, botting is just one of them.
And the clan leader didn't get all those things and they aren't necessarily the spoils of botting. Many items in the CWH of a level 11 clan were the spoils of coordinated efforts of many clan members to take out major bosses in this game, and many times the clan leader didn't even attend.
Lol i think TD(from bartz) do more and more pming to Gm's about this topic. Yes they incredibly need this. Their leader got banned and ohters need in clan warehouse item. Do it NCsoft! You are always a strong side!
You guys wanna know something funny? NCsoft transferred leadership from a banned clanleader on bartz back in decemeber and refuse to do it for anyone else. Biggest e-bayer in the history of bartz finally got banned and they saved his clan!
now lets see some more people /rage
If that is true, that is mess up!!!
I was in a clan where the clan leader was banned and as you might know, most of the clan members had to leave the clan. At least 80% of them (ex-clannies), quit the game because didn't like the clan politics in Devianne back then. Some joined other clans and because they were casual players, they did not fit in them and left the game.
i see many bla bla bla about "safe items in cwh",so tell me whats the different between "items in cwh" from "items on other acc" ?
and i dont think that ppl who wants to get changed cl, cares about toon or cwh content.
Because i know how many small dead clans are in servers,because leader suddenly stops playing,but clannies did made efforts,graduate academy members,gathered mats,ect..and because our servers are dead,i vote to select next leader by clan's vote,but only when the leader has dissapeared.Maybe some people could still stay and play then.
I know also that many top pvp clans face problem of banned leader and dozens of epics/gear lost.Regulary i wouldnt accept a scammer to be able to save his clan(and items)by giving to someone else leadership with Nscwest blessings.But again our servers are so dead,if we dont give something to keep people playing,we will end with servers populated with 20 legit players(or maybe less).
So i vote for 3 option.And please,give us a vitality event.Freya is close and from what i read on posts,toons have to be 85 not to die in new areas.
And we need also a good rewarding event,not like the 1 vesper per server event,but with rewards for all.Korean do get so much,give us also.
i see many bla bla bla about "safe items in cwh",so tell me whats the different between "items in cwh" from "items on other acc" ?
and i dont think that ppl who wants to get changed cl, cares about toon or cwh content.
vesper bp gaiters boots helmet not full set and 5 candidates to get it -> it stay in cwh till whole set is competed to give it to 1of 5 ppl , antharas earring or valakas necklace 1rst it go to clan wh to think who will get it next or mb you just drop it and who pick it its his ? WOW WAKE UP before you even start posting zomg
btw its seems that : all dead servers dont want changes because they`re DEAD franz,luna, teon want changes because these are last live servers out there :)
I think that is a good idea but for which Clans?
It doesnt make any sense if that happened for clans, for example lvl3 because is easy to remake a clan lvl3. That works for big clans 6+ or 8+, because they do hard work to reach these lvls.
Create 2 Leaders Option, if one of them banned the other one have already all the privileges. Option to kick from clan a member already exist so create an option to replace the "empty" leadership. The new leader is a matter of clan members how they choose or etc.
You have the people who enjoy PVP, also the ones which enjoy PVE. Other people who enjoy botting, and others who do not bot. People who play a game and believe their forum post count is a reflection on their in-game status.
With the mixture of players within the player base, which changes from server to server, some servers more active then others this open vote should never have been cast out to the masses.
If I was a new player and saw this post, which I would believe the most used word from the start to the finish of this vote would be "bot" I would think otherwise playing this game. It has a very strong negative effect on any new players or indeed players who play the game then read these silly posts which can leave players feeling a bit emo and then quit.
Now to the option on this vote, tied to the argument above; this should have been done behind closed doors. Players who want their clan leadership changed should have been done in the following way;
- Player submits a petition on wanting the clan leadership changed.
-NCSOFT review the case, looking at the number of active players within the clan and the duration of the clan leader being banned.
- HGM then contacts the said representative of the said clan, joins the clan and becomes leader, then within the clan arranges an internal vote to choose within the clan who the clan want to become their new leader. Can be tracked via in-game mail, or letter direct to NcSoft tied to a reference number.
- Clan leadership is changed if the vote is clearly in favor of one said person.
- Each clan has 1 chance, if again a repeated offence is made and the clan leader is banned the whole clan is dissolved along with Clan Warehouse, Castle, Fort, Clan Hall.
- Case reviews are done on each server at a time, so everyone who gets their clan leader changed will be on the same day, thus fair for everyone on that server. I would think this would take effect after the weekly downtime?
- Have a waiting period of say 6 months, a kind of said penalty for the clan who's leader has been banned before any action is taken.
There is no reason what so ever to make it public vote. There are botters, cheats in all games but opening the doors on issues which effect a whole clan to people who haven't even been in that clan or have anything to do with that clan should not get a say in the matter.
NCSOFT tell us they cannot disclose information about their investigations, this clearly is doing so, and look at all the drama is caused.
Its clear as day the server populations are becoming less and less, already there have been server merges, allowing banned clans a second chance might bring a few players back, it could bring whole clans back which would make the game a little better then it is.
But it cannot make things any worse then they are now?
Create 2 Leaders Option, if one of them banned the other one have already all the privileges. Option to kick from clan a member already exist so create an option to replace the "empty" leadership. The new leader is a matter of clan members how they choose or etc.
this would make the banning to a normal thing in L2. really, a button "in case one leader got banned because he did illegal action". ahahahaha. if this would happen, then there basiclly also have to excist: "restore all your items from your banned account to a new account"-button.
and stuff like that.
and pelle: just finally face it. its not only your CL who was doing illegal action, there are also other members. in your clan, and also in the other involved ones, and in others as well, which have been "lucky" not getting caught yet. getting a ban should turn off all options related to the account.
vesper bp gaiters boots helmet not full set and 5 candidates to get it -> it stay in cwh till whole set is competed to give it to 1of 5 ppl , antharas earring or valakas necklace 1rst it go to clan wh to think who will get it next or mb you just drop it and who pick it its his ? WOW WAKE UP before you even start posting zomg
btw its seems that : all dead servers dont want changes because they`re DEAD franz,luna, teon want changes because these are last live servers out there :)
read_think_post > post_read
this would make the banning for a normal thing in L2. really, a button "in case one leader got banned because he did illegal action". ahahahaha. if this would happen, then there basiclly also have to excist: "restore all your items from your banned account to a new account"-button.
and stuff like that.
and pelle: just finally face it. its not only your CL who was doing illegal action, there are also other members. in your clan, and also in the other involved ones, and in others as well, which have been "lucky" not getting caught yet. getting a ban should turn of all options related to the account.
first of all, if you reply to a stupid post i think that you are not so clever guy!!
1.All posts here are opinions about a subject from NCSOFT.
2. You talk about my clan m8s and my clan leader...., THE BEST CLAN IN FRANZ SERVER HAVE MORE ENEMYS THAN FRIENDS, THE CURSE OF THE BEST!!!
3. Take care your clan leader & clan m8s, if you are clan leader take care your self and your members. Dont bother the others because maybe you cant reach so high.
good luck m8
p.s i dont have the responsibility of nobody except my self.
- HGM then contacts the said representative of the said clan, joins the clan and becomes leader, then within the clan arranges an internal vote to choose within the clan who the clan want to become their new leader. Can be tracked via in-game mail, or letter direct to NcSoft tied to a reference number.
There is no reason what so ever to make it public vote.
1) Ah why would an HGM need to join the clan to change leadership? They could do all of those things you mentioned without the need to join the clan.
2) I don't think the intention is to have a "public" vote that would extend beyond the limits of the clan.
You know I can understand people having differing points of view on this, but some people (not necessarily the one I quoted here) have this hard core militant view that everyone connected to the clan should be permanently screwed.
I don't think my CL bots or does anything that would get him banned, but it's not like I have a GPS tracker up his toon's rear end either. Stuff happens and it would suck to lose out on everything that ppl worked toward over an issue with one person. Someone losing their account is enough punishment in most cases, no need to screw everybody else over based merely on guilt by association.
I would like to point out a possible fault with the current vote system
Option 1:
The member chosen personally by the banned clan leader.
However NCSOFT in their TOS for Lineage ][ state ...
"(i) Former Members. Members whose Accounts have been terminated by NC Interactive may not access the Service in any manner or for any reason, including through any other Account, without the express written permission of NC Interactive. Accounts accessed by Former Members are subject to immediate termination"
first of all, if you reply to a stupid post i think that you are not so clever guy!!
1.All posts here are opinions about a subject from NCSOFT.
2. You talk about my clan m8s and my clan leader...., THE BEST CLAN IN FRANZ SERVER HAVE MORE ENEMYS THAN FRIENDS, THE CURSE OF THE BEST!!!
3. Take care your clan leader & clan m8s, if you are clan leader take care your self and your members. Dont bother the others because maybe you cant reach so high.
good luck m8
p.s i dont have the responsibility of nobody except my self.
are you called pellegri?
and very mature btw. since i care that your clan has more enmies than friends. cool. however. im not located on franz, so i don't know about your business. and i think krank just found the right thing on this matter.
and very mature btw. since i care that your clan has more enmies than friends. cool. however. im not located on franz, so i don't know about your business. and i think krank just found the right thing on this matter.
If the clan leader is banned he was obviously doing something illegal and his clan probably was involved. As punishment, the leaders clan should be disbanded and the name no longer usable. It is his clan, it should go down with him. A new leader should have to earn the right to own a clan of value, not handed one.
I guess its simple, if bot is an offense, when a leader which is the most important position btw, is discovered botting, he should be banned and the clan wipe-out.
If you allow change leader, you are allowing bot somehow, think about that
I guess its simple, if bot is an offense, when a leader which is the most important position btw, is discovered botting, he should be banned and the clan wipe-out.
If you allow change leader, you are allowing bot somehow, think about that
maybe some of you are right that being CL is great responsibility but you cant have 100% sure that your CL is 100% clear and never ever get banned/leave game in worst time.
To make clan a big clan it's really hard thing to do, many, maaaany crp, time spended by many ppl and it's NOT good when thats all is lost by one person's ban, thats just not fair for all the ppl working to make a clan GOOD.
We, ppl from big clans should have an opportunity to change ClanLeadership in such case!
just give the option(priviledges) ingame,so a clan leader can choose one member to have full access(i mean same rights as clan leader,incuding clan wh and manage ranks)
if clan leader banned,the other person will be clan "leader" cause he will have be full clan rights and is thrustworthy to ex clan leader
Most of the people that voted against transfering clan leadership have obviously not attended any Epic Fights to realize what is like to waste so much xp/time/adena for these events and then lose everything just like that.
Most of the major clans that had their CL banned had numerous valuable items in the cwh that the clan members have worked for.
Also consider the fact that it takes a HUGE amount of time to lvl a Clan with full Clan Skills from zero.
I bet that most of you rolepaying carebears posting here haven't worked for these things in your L2 life to appreciate them accordingly.
My vote is to have the option to transfer the Clan Leadership if the Clan leader is banned.
Most of the people that voted against transfering clan leadership have obviously not attended any Epic Fights to realize what is like to waste so much xp/time/adena for these events and then lose everything just like that.
Most of the major clans that had their CL banned had numerous valuable items in the cwh that the clan members have worked for.
Also consider the fact that it takes a HUGE amount of time to lvl a Clan with full Clan Skills from zero.
I bet that most of you rolepaying carebears posting here haven't worked for these things in your L2 life to appreciate them accordingly.
My vote is to have the option to transfer the Clan Leadership if the Clan leader is banned.
I am in a "carebear" clan as you call it. We have every skill and are clan lvl 8 with all units unlocked.
Yes it does take lots and lots of time and effort in doing that, but if you as a clan member knows that your clan leader is botting or doing other bad things then why even bother helping him with the clan that has a good chance of getting hit by the ban hammer?
Isn't it better to leave that clan and find a new one or ask for a new clan leader that manages to stay legit so that you don't risk getting the clan leader banned?
If you know that your clan leader is violating the EULA in any way and don't react on it then you are a part of it and doesn't deserve better.
Oh and I also want to add that when a clan leader is banned and that clan holds a CH, the clan should automaticly lose the CH since the clan is ded.
Nothing should happen.
If the leader whos supposed to be a good exemple of behavior gets banned im pretty sure half of the clan is just like him. Nobody works alone.. and you cant be unlegit witout all clan under you knowing it or even helping with it.
Imo leave as it is and just take away the clanhalls that are owned by those banned leaders.
We have tons of cheaters that once were in a banned clan that would only benefit them if they get their clan back.