L2 has added many ways to increase our leveling speed, Vitality System and Nevitt's Blessings. However, the drops from monsters has not been changed to reflect the increases in XP.
This means that the XP may increase 4.5x, while monster drops stayed at 1x.
as i said in another thread, we don't yet know the extent of the GoD impact; they say vitality affects drop rate of items, they may have increased the item drop rate for levels 1-85, they might introduce adena through the daily exp quests...
time will tell. this information is not yet known.
however in principle its still fairly easy to make adena in L2; you just have to do THAT instead of going out hunting.
or you have to be an 83 dagger and have a zillion maestro keys.
generally adena from the NPC is the most reliable, so drop trading and mass spoiling can make a substantial adena amount in a short time; like spoiling in varka/ketra and NPC'sing the keymats. its some cool cash in hand and doesnt waste time sitting selling.
so if anything i think the new vitality system actually will help adena growth for lower levels despite terrible adena drops and inflated exp rewards.
as i said in another thread, we don't yet know the extent of the GoD impact; they say vitality affects drop rate of items, they may have increased the item drop rate for levels 1-85, they might introduce adena through the daily exp quests...
time will tell. this information is not yet known.
however in principle its still fairly easy to make adena in L2; you just have to do THAT instead of going out hunting.
or you have to be an 83 dagger and have a zillion maestro keys.
generally adena from the NPC is the most reliable, so drop trading and mass spoiling can make a substantial adena amount in a short time; like spoiling in varka/ketra and NPC'sing the keymats. its some cool cash in hand and doesnt waste time sitting selling.
so if anything i think the new vitality system actually will help adena growth for lower levels despite terrible adena drops and inflated exp rewards.
There is no announcement for when GOD will be released, and we do not have the full details about gear acquisition. We have L2 here and now.
L2 has added many ways to increase our leveling speed, Vitality System and Nevitt's Blessings. However, the drops from monsters has not been changed to reflect the increases in XP.
This means that the XP may increase 4.5x, while monster drops stayed at 1x.
Should this be changed?
there is 1 bigger point........... SP! old system you did 80 w/o die you was able to learn the 150kk sp skill now you get around 100 decrease the sp need for skills! so is the exp need for 78+ useless
there is 1 bigger point........... SP! old system you did 80 w/o die you was able to learn the 150kk sp skill now you get around 100 decrease the sp need for skills! so is the exp need for 78+ useless
When your blessing increases your XP, your SP also increase, so not sure that's a problem.
I think we get that you are broke Hels, no need for anymore post about how times are bad and handouts aren't coming fast enough.
Sure, I consider myself broke. There's no question I would like more adena at any given time. That's true in real life also. Until I have the wealth of Warren Buffett IRL and more adena than anyone else in this game, I will continue to feel broke.
In Beta the day before the game went live I had made it to lvl 20. It took SEVERAL weeks and I had saved enough to buy the best top NG Bow. I was killed by Ol Mahums and had my cheap dagger equiped and droped the bow. It was heart breaking and I almost didn't buy the live version because of it. It is easier now.
After being away from the game for four years, going off and playing other games and maxing out I decided to come back and give it a try again.
These complaints are the same now as they were in Beta. Bots and farmers in Beta everywhere. Only the rich dwarves had adena. (insert old players now) We can't make enough adena leveling. Do you think they will change now after 7 years?
Nope.
I have to say though the most fun times were on the Test Servers with massive drops and 10x exp or more.
I brought several low level tunes up to level 50 since I came back a few weeks ago. If it werent for the fact I had alot of top gear at every level through B grade and 20mil adena they would be totaly naked except for the shadow weapons. New players need more drops. Old players can fuel their alts.
Sure, I consider myself broke. There's no question I would like more adena at any given time. That's true in real life also. Until I have the wealth of Warren Buffett IRL and more adena than anyone else in this game, I will continue to feel broke.
Is this a problem?
Awesome point. And Hel yes, I voted for a better economy!
I have to say though the most fun times were on the Test Servers with massive drops and 10x exp or more.
I brought several low level tunes up to level 50 since I came back a few weeks ago. If it werent for the fact I had alot of top gear at every level through B grade and 20mil adena they would be totaly naked except for the shadow weapons. New players need more drops. Old players can fuel their alts.
I have to agree. It's also why more people risk damage to their computers and compromise their security by playing Private Servers than Official. Private server subscriptions outnumber Official by a pretty overwhelming amount.
So Official upped the XP rate... and left the part out that made the Privates so appealing.
Old players fuel their alts NP at all, that's why most can't see the problem for new players.
L2 has added many ways to increase our leveling speed, Vitality System and Nevitt's Blessings. However, the drops from monsters has not been changed to reflect the increases in XP.
This means that the XP may increase 4.5x, while monster drops stayed at 1x.
Should this be changed?
Voted "Yes" on this for the 4.5x - matches what we used to be able to do back 2-3 years ago, when this game was really thriving.
Has been an interesting read - lotta good points on both sides.
My thoughts are, increasing the "fun factor" - being able to get at least A grade and S-grade (probably not so much S80, and definitely not S84 type stuff), would greatly increase the appeal of the game for the vast majority players - new players, older players coming back (no "Old Jokes" plz...), and current players working thru their levels C-low S grade.
One of the most enjoyable parts of the game was know that if you worked hard (not unreasonable amounts of time), saved your adena, and worked the market - you could get good gear.
I got most my B-S grade gear this way (crafted my +6 DC Set from scratch, made my +5 AM from scratch - just 150, crafted Major Arcana set, nice jewels - some drops from Raids - got my first SOM from Antharas, etc.). When I came back a few years ago - I sold everything to get my S80 Sword and Morai (crafted every bit of it - 80% success), then everything just went in the toilet.
I brought several low level tunes up to level 50 since I came back a few weeks ago. If it werent for the fact I had alot of top gear at every level through B grade and 20mil adena they would be totaly naked except for the shadow weapons. New players need more drops. Old players can fuel their alts.
You can buy common B grade dirt cheap. The problem with gear really starts at A grade and beyond that point.
You can buy common B grade dirt cheap. The problem with gear really starts at A grade and beyond that point.
A grade? Are you joking? You can lux shop that now or swing it with common item just fine till S grade. I've seen Drac sets are low as 30 mil. The only hard part S and up is the weapons. If you can get it clean you'll save,but then you have the task of SA,enchants and elements. It is NOT difficult to save adena. Learn what people are buying! Either you go spend time farming,crafting or offer craft shops. You can't really avoid shop mode,you have to generate income.
I voted first option and i want to make clear that i dont only suggest 4.5 increase in adena drops but in ALL drops.This is the only way for legit player who grinds to beat the ''korean random drop regenarator'' who likes to drop nothing valuable at all for 4 hours and then drop for 2 hours,stop for 3-4 h then again drop for 2-3h.At least when we hit the good hours we will get a drop!Drops from raids also must increase,they are a joke as they became in this update,ls worthless,books worthless,at least they could drop more parts of armor+1 weapon.
If drops generally aren't going to get a boost, base adena drops need to.
Moving away from adena for a moment, an example is stones.
I regularly go hunting for the whole day (couple parties).
If I'm lucky I'll get up to 2 stones (a fire and a water or something).
If unlucky I've had nothing except a few keymats and adams & oricalcums.
You can't element your armor fast enough even with a whole grade change at this rate.
You would go from 80->84 before you have got enough stones to finish elementing the original set if you rely on the drops...
The point is, if you're broke, you rely on drops because any adena you have has to goto 81/83 books and/or s-gems to afford that ellusive SA. For broke people its a bit of a vicious circle, adena sinks grow at the same rate that you get base mob adena income. The only chance to 'break out' is via Events practically.
If you have a good clan you can get help with a lot of things like crafting things,the forgotten scrolls and leveling up SA. Events work to make money,but you have to be willing to farm the items and sell them. I might turn a few,but I usually make bank on selling the items. I farm various things and sell them, but it's not mega adena. Couple million here and there.
A grade? Are you joking? You can lux shop that now or swing it with common item just fine till S grade. I've seen Drac sets are low as 30 mil. The only hard part S and up is the weapons. If you can get it clean you'll save,but then you have the task of SA,enchants and elements. It is NOT difficult to save adena. Learn what people are buying! Either you go spend time farming,crafting or offer craft shops. You can't really avoid shop mode,you have to generate income.
Good point. Forgot about High Five update making A grade gear easier to obtain.
I voted first option and i want to make clear that i dont only suggest 4.5 increase in adena drops but in ALL drops.This is the only way for legit player who grinds to beat the ''korean random drop regenarator'' who likes to drop nothing valuable at all for 4 hours and then drop for 2 hours,stop for 3-4 h then again drop for 2-3h.At least when we hit the good hours we will get a drop!Drops from raids also must increase,they are a joke as they became in this update,ls worthless,books worthless,at least they could drop more parts of armor+1 weapon.
I agree on the increase, but that drop rate seems off I've seen me and my buddy farm 16 to 18 hours straight on weekends and seen nothing more then average adena drop and very basic mat's seen this with a dwarven spoiler to, very dissapointing to have a spoiler and barely increase your drops. don't even wanna discuss an actual gear drop never happens anymore except common and common doesn't net you much adena maybe if 1 or 2 pieces an hour dropped it could improve things but don't think you could sell that much market would get flooded with it.everything needs major increases I think.
Why would someone have to be on disability to be able to make enough cash in game to upgrade themselves?
I have a full time job, and I still manage to get things done in game, and gear myself.
I do agree with Givemeinfo on this one though.
Maybe the ppl shouting the loudest about increasing adena drops just needs to learn how to play the game? Especially since you guys think increasing adena drops will magically make everyone rich enough to buy good gear. Ppl will charge more for their wares when ppl have more money. You will be just as poor. And clueless.
Why would someone have to be on disability to be able to make enough cash in game to upgrade themselves?
I have a full time job, and I still manage to get things done in game, and gear myself.
I do agree with Givemeinfo on this one though.
Maybe the ppl shouting the loudest about increasing adena drops just needs to learn how to play the game? Especially since you guys think increasing adena drops will magically make everyone rich enough to buy good gear. Ppl will charge more for their wares when ppl have more money. You will be just as poor. And clueless.
i started playing here on Naia a month ago.
As many ppl say i don't think its useless to start the game now after 7 years it's still fun and money making was never a problem for me.
After a month i'm now 75 an got 20kk adena just from buying b-rez cheap and selling them....
i think for beginning that's not bad, adena rate shouldn't be increased
and btw i have fulltime job too and also can't play more than 1 or 2 hours a day ...
(also if adena rate would be increased the s+ grades will get more expensive, so i think nothing would change... or am i wrong?^^)
i started playing here on Naia a month ago.
As many ppl say i don't think its useless to start the game now after 7 years it's still fun and money making was never a problem for me.
After a month i'm now 75 an got 20kk adena just from buying b-rez cheap and selling them....
i think for beginning that's not bad, adena rate shouldn't be increased
and btw i have fulltime job too and also can't play more than 1 or 2 hours a day ...
(also if adena rate would be increased the s+ grades will get more expensive, so i think nothing would change... or am i wrong?^^)
The cost of S or S80 is the cheap part. You can craft it yourself from parts for 200K adena at shops in Giran, or befriend a dwarf for free. The parts for S80 and S84 you can get from questing.
If they increased all drops 4.5x, it would allow you to make it by the time you needed it. S84 Vesper drops like candy from big bosses, and people are crushing them for S crystals, there's so much of it around. Your S84 weapon you can get from just killing 7 different boss dragons in Dragon Valley. Yes, this is a lot of bosses, but I got mine the first week after the quest came out, it's not hard to find others to do it with that also want weapons.
The COST are the S gems to SA your weapons and the Enchants to ++ them. The COSTS for armor are the element stones and crystals to get them to 120 per element per piece. You no longer even need to be stuck farming AA, since you can now buy them from the black marketeer at Giran for 4 aa each.
The only reason items are cheaper at Giran is because people don't need them anymore so dump it cheap and you are too lazy to farm for the parts. If they increased drops across the board, you aren't stuck buying other people's used goods, you can make your own for free 4.5x faster, which is why the high levels do not want drops raised.
If you are new to the game, falling for the old 'it's going to raise prices' simply means you are tricked into not working for yourselves and enriching the salesmen in Giran more.
Further, it will DROP prices in the economy, as more and more people are able to become self sufficient in crafting their own gear (not to mention more proud of their accomplishments) with the increases in drops. The people stuck with a lot of gear to resell to you naturally do not want people to have the means to make their own more easily, because they will have to sell their gear cheaper to get people who can make it to to buy it instead.
Spent 10 min at Giran and see how many crafters will make S80-S84 gear, and how many stores sell and buy mats that you might be short. More cash for you means you are empowered to make gear for yourself, not be forced to buy from those who already have $$ and want more.
I think that increasing the drop rate, would make the prices go even lower... making the adena more valuable, considering that we would be having double or triple number of gear on the market, if you wanted to sell in those conditions, sellers would have to drop the prices by half, making your adena more powerfull.
But to be honest im not sure if that would be a good or a bad measure.
The poll is too vague. I'm okay to rebalance drops to have higher levels mobs drop more than lower ones, but that's it.
Good point. It should be 4.5x all drops, not just adena, but since I started on the adena part, I just stayed with that. It SHOULD be all drops, to give new players the same advantages as the old players selling stuff to them in Giran.
Remember... someone CRAFTED those parts for sale at a time when the xp to drop ratio was 4.5x HIGHER, when XP was 1:1. Today, it's 1:4.5.
New players have been screwed and can't even see it, and are voting to keep screwing themselves.
Old players are being screwed because they aren't getting enough adena for their Mastery Codex, element stones or skill enchants, forcing them to sit in Giran for days on end praying that their stuff sells.
In a healthy L2 economy, you can choose to sell your old gear or crush it for crystals to make your shots, because you are not desperate to sell your old gear for money to buy things you need (OE $$, stone $$, shot $$, eisanhad $$, etc). You can farm it from mobs.
Of course you'd still sell things in Giran, because 1 mil an hour farmed isn't going to make you the 200 mil it would cost for 1 piece of vorpal armor when you need 5 pieces. 1000 hours of farming adena means no armor til way past awakening for most people, nevermind the weapon, but it would help you element the pieces.
New players would have enough $$ to make their own gear, not be scrounging for adena to buy someone else's used gear made in the day when the adena to XP ratio was 1:1, when today, you are gaining XP at 4.5x the rate, but still getting 1x the drops.
In other words, L2's economy would almost go back to the beginning of the game... where people actually enjoyed the game and there was 13 full servers worth of population.
Good point. It should be 4.5x all drops, not just adena, but since I started on the adena part, I just stayed with that. It SHOULD be all drops, to give new players the same advantages as the old players selling stuff to them in Giran.
Remember... someone CRAFTED those parts for sale at a time when the xp to drop ratio was 4.5x HIGHER, when XP was 1:1. Today, it's 1:4.5.
New players have been screwed and can't even see it, and are voting to keep screwing themselves.
Old players are being screwed because they aren't getting enough adena for their Mastery Codex, element stones or skill enchants, forcing them to sit in Giran for days on end praying that their stuff sells.
In a healthy L2 economy, you can choose to sell your old gear or crush it for crystals to make your shots, because you are not desperate to sell your old gear for money to buy things you need (OE $$, stone $$, shot $$, eisanhad $$, etc). You can farm it from mobs.
Of course you'd still sell things in Giran, because 1 mil an hour farmed isn't going to make you the 200 mil it would cost for 1 piece of vorpal armor when you need 5 pieces. 1000 hours of farming adena means no armor til way past awakening for most people, nevermind the weapon, but it would help you element the pieces.
New players would have enough $$ to make their own gear, not be scrounging for adena to buy someone else's used gear made in the day when the adena to XP ratio was 1:1, when today, you are gaining XP at 4.5x the rate, but still getting 1x the drops.
In other words, L2's economy would almost go back to the beginning of the game... where people actually enjoyed the game and there was 13 full servers worth of population.
None of this helps nobody from WOW is gonna leave all their leat gears to come here to grind lvls/gears for a year and no pvp guilds will come here for same reason.
kinda says something about a gear based system doesn't it.
I think that increasing the drop rate, would make the prices go even lower... making the adena more valuable, considering that we would be having double or triple number of gear on the market, if you wanted to sell in those conditions, sellers would have to drop the prices by half, making your adena more powerfull.
But to be honest im not sure if that would be a good or a bad measure.
Please tell me how you reasoned this in your head.
How would more adena for everyone mean ppl would lower prices on their wares exactly?
Increasing adena drops to scale with vitality WILL however help new characters be able to afford gear from vendors instead of having to rely entirely on common/shadow items. So it works as a bandaid for the early part of the game. It'll help a lot with anything that has a fixed cost. That includes enchant scrolls bought with cubics, early soulshots, pet armor/weapon/shots, etc.
But prices on stuff that players sell probably WILL go up. I still think having more adena after buying soulshots at lower levels would be nice though.
Edit: Then again, by the time we get that vitality fix, GoD will be here, and then you won't need to afford gear from vendors? I dunno.
Please tell me how you reasoned this in your head.
How would more adena for everyone mean ppl would lower prices on their wares exactly?
Out of the goodness of their hearts?
Don't hold your breath for that btw.
Or do. Totally up to you :D
Its pretty simple, the gear today doesnt sell, not because ppl dont have money, the gear is super cheap, gear doesnt sell because ppl don't need it, ppl can lvl with common gear and use hero chest up to 80 if the want.
And if you get 10x more gear on the market, for the seller being able to actualy sell something they would have to sell it cheaper than the shop next to him.
offer > need = prices get lower
need > offer = prices sky high
After 80 ppl will start needing to buy gear, and they shoul have money for it considered they did not waste money trough D S grade. But most of theese ppl will quit, before they actualy need S80 gear, leaving that s80 gear getting dust on giran/aden shops. If we add more of that s80+ gear with incresed drop rate, prices would drop even more, making your adena more valueable, with the same amount of adena you will be able to buy x+y gear instead of only x or y gear.
Its pretty simple, the gear today doesnt sell, not because ppl dont have money, the gear is super cheap, gear doesnt sell because ppl don't need it, ppl can lvl with common gear and use hero chest up to 80 if the want.
And if you get 10x more gear on the market, for the seller being able to actualy sell something they would have to sell it cheaper than the shop next to him.
offer > need = prices get lower
need > offer = prices sky high
After 80 ppl will start needing to buy gear, and they shoul have money for it considered they did not waste money trough D S grade. But most of theese ppl will quit, before they actualy need S80 gear, leaving that s80 gear getting dust on giran/aden shops. If we add more of that s80+ gear with incresed drop rate, prices would drop even more, making your adena more valueable, with the same amount of adena you will be able to buy x+y gear instead of only x or y gear.
Higher adena drops will never lower prices in this game.
If you want to lower prices, increase the drops of full, non-common armor and weapons up through low S grade by 20x.
Then after you do that...
Make all 1st level mats available for purchase from the Merchant of Mammon at NCSoft standard base prices.
Make all keymats for armor and weapons up to S80 available for purchase from the Blacksmith of Mammon
Make element stones able to be purchased from the attribute NPC.
Increase the respawn time of monsters in catacombs and necropolises by 2x or let every monster in catacomb drop seal stones.
WWW
I was talking about an increse in drop rate, adena and item drop.
If only adena would be incresed yes, prices would go higher, if all incresed, prices would go down.
I swear you guys are dense your missing the big picture.
MORE MONEY IS LEAVING L2 THEN ENTERING.
This is not about making people rich, but when things high level people need are 250 mil to a NPC, where does this 250 mil get created from? Are you not grasping this concept? Once you click that button for a Awaken enchant book that 250 mil is out of the economy never coming back.
When you have to buy S gems for adena or R gems for adena not from someone then that adena is out of the market its not coming back.
Yes you can buy AA for 4:1 but that money goes to a NPC and its sucked away from the economy.
How hard is it for you people to grasp when high level people sell lower people gear the money stays in the economy.
When higher level people buy items to upgrade their toons the money leaves the economy
Do you guys not understand the difference?
This whole argument is about the increases in Adena sinks with the decreases on how adena enters the economy?
You think you should make less per mob in adena on a level 90 mob then a level 40 mob what drugs are you guys on?
i have no doubt that eventually those things will happen wamwam.
people didnt want A/S in stores - it now is.
people didnt want auction house - happened anyway.
slowly becoming a solo player's game.
The moment that people started to only want to use stacked parties, it forced L2 to become a solo player's game. With this in mind, sometimes parties just aren't easy to get. And then when you happen to get one, there's always two people that have to leave for whatever reason shortly after you start. So it's better to only have parties for raids or quick instance runs, and leave XP gathering for mostly solo situations.
I understand the OP's need for the ability to get stuff solo a bit easier. Even if you're in a "good" clan, most clans tell people to use common weapons and items until they're **** near level 80. Then they can get on a waiting list to get drops and stuff. Clans are really wary of gearing up toons new to the clan and almost invariably you see only the "in crowd" of the clan getting every good thing in short order. Since you can't really count on anyone helping, it's better to be able to help yourself. For that, you need better game mechanics to make up for the lack of spoilers/crafters in lower level ranges.
I was told by a good friend that the only good way to make adena in this game is to be at top level when new chronicles come out. That way, you're able to hunt in the new areas and get drops and items that the old heads want to buy. This is why most high level players have billions while lower level players struggle for adena.
This whole argument is about the increases in Adena sinks with the decreases on how adena enters the economy?
You think you should make less per mob in adena on a level 90 mob then a level 40 mob what drugs are you guys on?
I agree that adena drops should be level appropriate as well, but an overall increase in adena flow will ultimately prompt players to raise prices and negate the increase. Now if the argument is simply for buying and selling from NPC characters only, then increasing adena makes sense as the NPC prices always remain static.
increasing adena flow in GoD won't effect price of items, cause adena is needed by top players just for the adena sinks, so they need more adena just to remove it from the economy.
THe money will not enter into circullation at the top levels so its a moot point.
Seriously does any have a business degree on these forums, or even a minor? It is simple economics and people are missing it.
The moment that people started to only want to use stacked parties, it forced L2 to become a solo player's game. With this in mind, sometimes parties just aren't easy to get. And then when you happen to get one, there's always two people that have to leave for whatever reason shortly after you start. So it's better to only have parties for raids or quick instance runs, and leave XP gathering for mostly solo situations.
I understand the OP's need for the ability to get stuff solo a bit easier. Even if you're in a "good" clan, most clans tell people to use common weapons and items until they're **** near level 80. Then they can get on a waiting list to get drops and stuff. Clans are really wary of gearing up toons new to the clan and almost invariably you see only the "in crowd" of the clan getting every good thing in short order. Since you can't really count on anyone helping, it's better to be able to help yourself. For that, you need better game mechanics to make up for the lack of spoilers/crafters in lower level ranges.
I was told by a good friend that the only good way to make adena in this game is to be at top level when new chronicles come out. That way, you're able to hunt in the new areas and get drops and items that the old heads want to buy. This is why most high level players have billions while lower level players struggle for adena.
WWW
well i must disagree with you on the difficulty of grouping.
right now in Korea the party matching system is working to create groups for their vast server banks of players. they dont sit and shout LFG at the entrance of GC and be denied "because youre in so and so clan" or "because you dont have x gear"
they are good about fielding players they dont know, havent met, or who might be slightly differently geared.
on the contrast its only hard to find a group in our own 2 server base. why? because we sit back and laugh at players who dont have 150 element gear, or who are struggling with moirai.
destructor proved this with his short presence here. he wasnt offered groups, gear, help, or even the famed powerup sessions that some people claim to be able to give, such as 85/80/80/80 in 8x12 hr days.
why? cause we're so high and mighty over here, proud as a peakok over petty things.
i would LOVE to play Korean servers for this reason; not even when we had 13 servers and a far bigger playerbase did we even once utilize the party matching system to benefit or group with people we dont know, preferring to solo.
which imo is why we are so small of a playerbase; not a tooting thing to do with economy or adena or anything like that.
I definatly agree with you. After the sleep nerf I am seldom invited to a party unless its a clan/alliance party. Unfortunatly everything in GC is water resist too. However I am able to solo quite well with just a Kook and herbs.
I have seen a lot more people using the party matching system in game. I use it a lot for alt toons to get into kama's so I dont have to wait around or miss a shout lfg. If you cant find a party, give it a try.
I dont see how that is relevant, but check my join date on the forums?
Your arguments sux either way, coz there is no logic behind them.
Increasing adena drops just means ppl can start charging more for the gear you want, and you still wont be able to get it.
Stop buying hats and other random useless stuff and you can upgrade urself too.
Or try working hard for something. That'll be something new I bet.
If you check my join date on the forum, you'd think I played since 2005. I started in April 2004, and took a 4+ year break.
I asked you how long you played because I was curious how someone who has played for 7 YEARS could possibly not have maxed out, or who could possibly relate to the situation of someone who started this game a few month ago and their motivations to keep paying and playing.
No, it would NOT increase prices for goods, because increased drops allow people who currently cannot to MAKE goods, thereby balancing the skewed economy, and filling the money sinks built in by NPC items.
By playing 7 years, you feel you 'worked hard' for something? If that proves anything at all, it's that this game isn't about being a better player, it's about a monkey pushing buttons, because after 7 YEARS in a game who doesn't have billions? I've played 2, and I may have as many or more total assets in game than you do. I must have worked harder.
If you check my join date on the forum, you'd think I played since 2005. I started in April 2004, and took a 4+ year break.
I asked you how long you played because I was curious how someone who has played for 7 YEARS could possibly not have maxed out, or who could possibly relate to the situation of someone who started this game a few month ago and their motivations to keep paying and playing.
No, it would NOT increase prices for goods, because increased drops allow people who currently cannot to MAKE goods, thereby balancing the skewed economy, and filling the money sinks built in by NPC items.
By playing 7 years, you feel you 'worked hard' for something? If that proves anything at all, it's that this game isn't about being a better player, it's about a monkey pushing buttons, because after 7 YEARS in a game who doesn't have billions? I've played 2, and I may have as many or more total assets in game than you do. I must have worked harder.
you would be surprised, sir.
there are people i know who have played longer than i have, and havent taken my breaks from game and they only have lv 80 characters with 1 sub under 70 and these same players between them couldnt break 100m
"playing" has different connotations for everyone. the "playing" i speak of generally has less to do with generic "lets kill mobs" mentality in lieu of actually doing little else but jibber jabber.
you may call that Fail, they (and i) call it playing. we are entitled to it just as much as you are entitled to your billions of adena from pve.
there are people i know who have played longer than i have, and havent taken my breaks from game and they only have lv 80 characters with 1 sub under 70 and these same players between them couldnt break 100m
"playing" has different connotations for everyone. the "playing" i speak of generally has less to do with generic "lets kill mobs" mentality in lieu of actually doing little else but jibber jabber.
you may call that Fail, they (and i) call it playing. we are entitled to it just as much as you are entitled to your billions of adena from pve.
There is nothing fail about playing for 1 hour a week, or never leveling beyond 30 because you simply want to run around enjoying the world. In no post did I ever imply that there was.
Increasing the drops to the level of Prelude does not deter anyone from playing for the sheer enjoyment of playing. That's the beauty of an MMO, it offers something for everyone.
Improving the economy with the game equivalent of 'creating jobs' does not hurt any casual players, it allows them to enjoy the full scope of the game even more.
People who want to log in and simply solo monsters because they have no time or desire to find a group will be enabled with enough cash to augment their items instead of being forced to sell their stones. They can enchant their weapon and armor instead of being forced to sell their enchants. They can keep on doing what they like doing best, instead of being forced to play the game in a group orientation they may not prefer.
Those who play purely to socialize will be completely unimpacted, as the adena drops mean nothing to them now and will mean nothing to them later.
true enough, however consider the opposite side of the coin
if you cater to a crowd that doesnt engage in a threshold level of activity that is pve centric (and lower the threshold) then the players who DO actively engage over and above that threshold make a gap; this gap is the difference between haves, and have-nots.
the gap betwixt the two originally existed as a level gap; certain high level buffs remained to the elite few and made high level pve vastly faster and safer. to a degree that gap is gone due to lessened exp requirements, more gear availability, and time. time healed that gap by allowing those who couldnt play so long to catch up with vitality and get that joyous powerful buff.
then comes the gap of players in powerful s84 raid and pvp gear; it comes only to those involved in the raid, seldom sold in store.
that gap is being bridged in GoD several ways, but none of which solves the ever present gap of adena.
those who were on the high level in the earlier game have most of it and arent giving it up - they have no reason to. they farm the s84, they do the raids, they are maxed gear already. it does not benefit them to have more adena, as theres nothing to buy.
this adena gap will be breached in time, when so many other players gain access to the raids and gears. but by then there will be something new to buy/farm/bridge.
so the cycle repeats ad infinitem.
at it has everything to do with North american players being smug and superior, tight-knit and clique-esque.
true enough, however consider the opposite side of the coin
if you cater to a crowd that doesnt engage in a threshold level of activity that is pve centric (and lower the threshold) then the players who DO actively engage over and above that threshold make a gap; this gap is the difference between haves, and have-nots.
the gap betwixt the two originally existed as a level gap; certain high level buffs remained to the elite few and made high level pve vastly faster and safer. to a degree that gap is gone due to lessened exp requirements, more gear availability, and time. time healed that gap by allowing those who couldnt play so long to catch up with vitality and get that joyous powerful buff.
then comes the gap of players in powerful s84 raid and pvp gear; it comes only to those involved in the raid, seldom sold in store.
that gap is being bridged in GoD several ways, but none of which solves the ever present gap of adena.
those who were on the high level in the earlier game have most of it and arent giving it up - they have no reason to. they farm the s84, they do the raids, they are maxed gear already. it does not benefit them to have more adena, as theres nothing to buy.
this adena gap will be breached in time, when so many other players gain access to the raids and gears. but by then there will be something new to buy/farm/bridge.
so the cycle repeats ad infinitem.
at it has everything to do with North american players being smug and superior, tight-knit and clique-esque.
The point of the drop increases has nothing to do with haves or have nots based on game play today. If you do not hunt monsters, you get 0 drops. You are unaffected by increasing or decreasing drops.
If not one thing changes about the drops, and we continue as we are with the population dwindle, the gap will grow regardless. People who play 1 hour a week will never make as much as someone who plays 4, or 20, or 40, or 80. That is a fact that is completely unrelated and irrelevant to drop levels. You don't put in the time, you don't get the rewards.
The ENJOYABILITY of the game for a casual player however is a factor. When you outlevel the gear you are capable of acquiring for the level monster you are hunting, that is a factor. Increasing the drops will FIX THIS PROBLEM.
YES, Events make up for this... IF you are ON for the events. Many people who work, take vacations, etc, MISS entire events. Then what for them? The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, just because they cannot log in. This is good for player retention how?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Events! I'm a goody oriented person, I like useless agathions that fill up my warehouse, maybe it will make me sell some junk to make the space for them, useless or not. However, not everyone can participate in Events, the drop increases will benefit EVERYONE across the board.
The gap will grow no matter what, because no one plays the same number of hours or spend those hours doing the same things. The issue you bring up is completely unrelated to game viability.
And I'll bring up yet again here, the point of increasing drops is to make the game MORE APPEALING to exactly those people who would otherwise never catch up and just quit. There are very few people who will throw $500 worth of quarters at a carnival booth to win a $5 stuffed toy, they stop at $5 tops if they have any common sense. But... they might if they win a $3 toy at that point... The PERCEPTION that you can win, because you are able to gear yourself, will keep you spending quarters however... just 1 more...
That is why Vegas is still in business, the house knows that you have to win a few or you leave... but in time, you spend more than you win.
Insufficient rewards = pack it up. So now we have hit on the psychological reasons, the game economy reasons, the NCWest business model reasons.
In game past experience cannot predict future outcomes, especially when those past experiences consider a game that has changed and evolved over 7 years already.
It's obvious to me, but that's because I've only been back in game less than a year (coming back with 100K adena btw), and I have a slightly outside perspective. Sort of like watching a tree grow outside your window every day for 4 years, vs coming back to see that tree 4 years later. The perspective of change is very different.
If you check my join date on the forum, you'd think I played since 2005. I started in April 2004, and took a 4+ year break.
Yes, and your join date wasnt in question, was it? I have a join date from about 7 years ago and 10k posts, if you check my statistics on this forum, you will see I post about 4 posts a day. This doesnt leave room for year long breaks. But lazy ppl dont check things like that. Or work hard for their gear. They just make polls and lobby for more adena to be dropped, don't they?
I asked you how long you played because I was curious how someone who has played for 7 YEARS could possibly not have maxed out, or who could possibly relate to the situation of someone who started this game a few month ago and their motivations to keep paying and playing.
Well to begin with, I wasnt born a moron. Empathy also goes along way to help in relating to other ppls situation. The clan I am in has also helped alot of new players out, also some ppl that have come back to game. Being active in game and social will give you a good understanding of how things work and what ppl think. I don't pay for clan's vent server for nothing.
No, it would NOT increase prices for goods, because increased drops allow people who currently cannot to MAKE goods, thereby balancing the skewed economy, and filling the money sinks built in by NPC items.
Ppl would still try to sell an IC set for over 300m if they could, but noone wants to pay that anymore, coz adena is more scarce. So they sell a set for 40-50 mil. If you double adena drops, ppl will have more adena, and also be willing to pay more for the gear they want. And in this case they would pay 100 mil for the IC set. For having a job that has to do with economics you sure dont seem to understand it too good...
By playing 7 years, you feel you 'worked hard' for something? If that proves anything at all, it's that this game isn't about being a better player, it's about a monkey pushing buttons, because after 7 YEARS in a game who doesn't have billions? I've played 2, and I may have as many or more total assets in game than you do. I must have worked harder.
With that much assets, why are you still crying for more adena drops?
Alot of players, and many of them are still around, chose this game because its not an easy-mode WoW clone. They want to see effort get rewarded. How many of them will quit when we get your "adena and gear rains over Aden"?
Please stop being so shortsighted.
And stop polluting the Suggestions forum. Which so far has been the worst part of this forum ever.
With that much assets, why are you still crying for more adena drops?
Alot of players, and many of them are still around, chose this game because its not an easy-mode WoW clone. They want to see effort get rewarded. How many of them will quit when we get your "adena and gear rains over Aden"?
Please stop being so shortsighted.
And stop polluting the Suggestions forum. Which so far has been the worst part of this forum ever.
I am not crying for adena drops Smitty. I want NCWest to fix the broken economy and do the in game equivalent of creating jobs.
Just like alternative energy, when people see 300 mil adena IC sets, and they want one, they'll craft it, it's cheaper than buying. With a 4.5x increase in drops, they'll craft it MUCH cheaper. The IC seller can sit in town for the next month wasting his subscription to sell the IC set. Darwin. What's the problem?
How many will go when monsters drop the same amount of adena XP to drop ratio as Prelude?
-- The same number who left when they put in the Vitality system and the Blessing system? Not many?
How many will stay from the new people attracted with the 3+1 Promotion when after 3 months they cannot replace the gear/weapons that poofed from the Hero chest?
-- I dunno. A lot more than people who leave is my bet.
In 3 months, everyone should be in S grade anyway... that's when they cant' even buy gear anymore, will they have the necessary 1 bil adena for basic S gear in 3 months of farming lowbie mobs? I dont' think most will.
Suggestion forum? This is the General Discussion forum. You can't even tell where you're posting now?
I am not crying for adena drops Smitty. I want NCWest to fix the broken economy and do the in game equivalent of creating jobs.
I don't really see it as a broken economy, if anything its closer to fixed now, than it ever was. How you cannot see that, I can only make guesses about, but I'd rather not post them, since that might earn me some more infractions :D
Just like alternative energy, when people see 300 mil adena IC sets, and they want one, they'll craft it, it's cheaper than buying. With a 4.5x increase in drops, they'll craft it MUCH cheaper. The IC seller can sit in town for the next month wasting his subscription to sell the IC set. Darwin. What's the problem?
Darwin, really. Is it Darwin that make you suggest increased adena drops instead of actually working harder to get your gear? There is no problem with the economy. You are trying to create the illusion that there is, for your own agenda.
How many will go when monsters drop the same amount of adena XP to drop ratio as Prelude?
-- The same number who left when they put in the Vitality system and the Blessing system? Not many?
How many will stay from the new people attracted with the 3+1 Promotion when after 3 months they cannot replace the gear/weapons that poofed from the Hero chest?
-- I dunno. A lot more than people who leave is my bet.
In 3 months, everyone should be in S grade anyway... that's when they cant' even buy gear anymore, will they have the necessary 1 bil adena for basic S gear in 3 months of farming lowbie mobs? I dont' think most will.
Ppl quitting has little to nothing to do with adena drop, and more to do with changes in real life, or activity of a clan someone is in. You are trying to pump up importance of adena so it can fit into your grand design.
Suggestion forum? This is the General Discussion forum. You can't even tell where you're posting now?
Why are you making suggestions in the General discussion forum then? I could care less where u post, but if you are gonna keep a discussion about adena drops going, please do so in the same spot, and stop polluting the forums. Please.
Ppl quitting has little to nothing to do with adena drop, and more to do with changes in real life, or activity of a clan someone is in. You are trying to pump up importance of adena so it can fit into your grand design.
Why are you making suggestions in the General discussion forum then? I could care less where u post, but if you are gonna keep a discussion about adena drops going, please do so in the same spot, and stop polluting the forums. Please.
What on earth can someone have for a 'grand design' by suggesting to improve the economy? I know you joke a lot, but that was flat.
General Discussion is where Sace likes to post most. It was a strategic decision (I think). I made only 1 post, with 9000 views in a few days, the other is a poll.
No one said you had to read my posts, Smittie. I do not follow behind your posts, and actually, I dont' read any except those on my thread because I don't find you very interesting, so feel free to ignore mine:).
What on earth can someone have for a 'grand design' by suggesting to improve the economy? I know you joke a lot, but that was flat.
General Discussion is where Sace likes to post most. It was a strategic decision (I think). I made only 1 post, with 9000 views in a few days, the other is a poll.
No one said you had to read my posts, Smittie. I do not follow behind your posts, and actually, I dont' read any except those on my thread because I don't find you very interesting, so feel free to ignore mine:).
You feel it is an improvement. I do not. Therefor I cannot say you are suggesting an improvement. And no, in this case I'm not joking.
If you are gonna suggest changes to the game, perhaps suggestion forum would have been a better place? No?
I know I don't have to read specific ppl's post, but I do it anyway, coz I like this game.
And when someone wants to change it in a bad way, I get vocal. Sorry if in this case I'm not on your side. But if you make a good suggestion in the future, I might be. I don't foresee you doing that in the near future though, but hey, who knows?
You feel it is an improvement. I do not. Therefor I cannot say you are suggesting an improvement. And no, in this case I'm not joking.
If you are gonna suggest changes to the game, perhaps suggestion forum would have been a better place? No?
I know I don't have to read specific ppl's post, but I do it anyway, coz I like this game.
And when someone wants to change it in a bad way, I get vocal. Sorry if in this case I'm not on your side. But if you make a good suggestion in the future, I might be. I don't foresee you doing that in the near future though, but hey, who knows?
You absolutely DID feel an improvement... because that's the drop rate at the beginning of the game through 5 or 6 Chronicles. YOU benefited from that drop rate so that you no longer have to think about it now. People who started AFTER the Vitality system was put in were screwed. This simply addresses the inequity so that everyone has the same advantage you did.
It's NO different than someone who put into Social Security 50 years ago expecting that everyone else will always get it too, when really, they got the money and in the coming years, others who paid also will not.
You absolutely DID feel an improvement... because that's the drop rate at the beginning of the game through 5 or 6 Chronicles. YOU benefited from that drop rate so that you no longer have to think about it now. People who started AFTER the Vitality system was put in were screwed. This simply addresses the inequity so that everyone has the same advantage you did.
It's NO different than someone who put into Social Security 50 years ago expecting that everyone else will always get it too, when really, they got the money and in the coming years, others who paid also will not.
Again your logic is flawed. It's becoming more and more apparent that you hvae little to no idea how to make money in this game, just by how you post about this issue.
There are so many more ways to make adena today, then there was back in the day.
I have 4/5 boss jewels currently, and some random gear on my toons.
Could I have had more, or better gear? Sure, but I would have had to be a selfish, egocentrical person. And that's not how I like to play this game. I like helping ppl. Sometimes they help me back, sometimes they don't. It's all the same to me.
I still believe you can get whatever gear you need by a group of ppl, lets just call it a clan to make it easier, working together. Instead of ppl soloing and making up stories of how hard it is to make enough adena to get new gear.
And if you dont see how the gear you cant afford at 300 mil today isnt gonna still be priced at 300 mil if your utopia kicks in, then I think you might be working in the wrong place. You did say you work in stock exchange right?
Again your logic is flawed. It's becoming more and more apparent that you hvae little to no idea how to make money in this game, just by how you post about this issue.
Actually, your logic is flawed, because you completely dodge the problem stated and the solution, to focus on something that is irrelevant, which is that I need more adena.
OF COURSE I need more adena. EVERYONE needs more adena. This has nothing to do with the inequities. And if you keep parroting that, that means people will believe that this was about ME wanting more adena?
Because guess what? If *I* get more adena, then YOU get more adena too. This is about monster drops, not give Hels more adena donations, although if you are that convinced, and as charitable as you claim, feel free to mail some to Hels in game. I won't say no to free adena, just don't expect any services for it.
At least, some mob drops (the high level ones) should be reviewed, and the sooner the better.
It doesn't make any sense that lvl 58 mobs in FP and lvl 60ish mobs in SoS drop twice as much adena as lvl 84 (x2 HP) mobs in FoS/FoW.
Before H5, I farmed those mobs to get attribute stones, while adena drops from them never covered the cost of shots.
Since H5 they don't drop stones anymore (another wise move from the developer's side... how do they come up with these bright ideas?), which scratched the entire area from the list of appropriate xp grounds for my level.
I would not mind if every high level mob in game became to drop attribute stones (like they drop life stones), this would only help everyone (and not only members of top clans) improve their gear.
Also I'd have nothing against a certain increase in adena drops in general.
I personally don't care if this would lead to some inflation in the market: at this point, I rarely buy anything at the market, as I give most of my adena away to npc (for skill enchants, augmentation and enchant scrolls).
At least, some mob drops (the high level ones) should be reviewed, and the sooner the better.
It doesn't make any sense that lvl 58 mobs in FP and lvl 60ish mobs in SoS drop twice as much adena as lvl 84 (x2 HP) mobs in FoS/FoW.
Before H5, I farmed those mobs to get attribute stones, while adena drops from them never covered the cost of shots.
Since H5 they don't drop stones anymore (another wise move from the developer's side... how do they come up with these bright ideas?), which scratched the entire area from the list of appropriate xp grounds for my level.
I would not mind if every high level mob in game became to drop attribute stones (like they drop life stones), this would only help everyone (and not only members of top clans) improve their gear.
Also I'd have nothing against a certain increase in adena drops in general.
I personally don't care if this would lead to some inflation in the market: at this point, I rarely buy anything at the market, as I give most of my adena away to npc (for skill enchants, augmentation and enchant scrolls).
I agree with everything you said. All higher levels spend more money on NPC than the market anyway, as you pointed out. Nearly all our money goes for Skill overenchants, S gems, Spirit Ores, Eisenhad waters, augments... none of which are recirculating adena.
Everyone I know spends more at NPC (the one in your skill enchant window especially), than they do in Giran buyng from a player. At higher levels, all that money just leaves the economy.
Giving lower levels more drops allows them to take part in the Giran market, stimulating the player economy.
There is no downside and no reason for inflation. Market competition keeps the inflation down. When the price of items exceed the cost of making it yourself, you make it yourself. Having the drops to do so gives everyone more options.
Actually, your logic is flawed, because you completely dodge the problem stated and the solution, to focus on something that is irrelevant, which is that I need more adena.
OF COURSE I need more adena. EVERYONE needs more adena. This has nothing to do with the inequities. And if you keep parroting that, that means people will believe that this was about ME wanting more adena?
Because guess what? If *I* get more adena, then YOU get more adena too. This is about monster drops, not give Hels more adena donations, although if you are that convinced, and as charitable as you claim, feel free to mail some to Hels in game. I won't say no to free adena, just don't expect any services for it.
Everyone doesn't need more adena though. Everyone is able to join clans and help eachter acquire gear though. Apparently not you and your friends though, that seem to think increasing adena drops is some magic fix for laziness.
Stop lobbying for personal needs pls.
And no, I am not gonna send you adena in game, because I also dont waste adena. You want my help? Join the clan I'm in. If not, you get nothing.
Bottom of line:
More adena in the game, prices will increase proportionally.
Yes, for the A graders and below, shops will provide the necessary to go up to 80 or even more depending on class.
Would that be a good thing ?
No, because there will be even less incentives for ppl to group up, to join a clan, to interact with others, in general.
-----------------------
We are wondering why the community is so bad... Well, that is why, we cater for the egotistic soloers that cant find anyone as good as them for a party, nor a clan that is not top and those only accept "actives" over 82 or more, so it is all about AFK or solo till then for the few that try to stay legit.
Ppl keep asking me if we accept x and y level... ****, clan level 9 is so high that it is normal not to accept 5x, 6x ? I get PMs and forum posts like, heya, I will be away 2 days, please dont kick me...
This proves the experience newbies are having over here. Do we wonder they drop so fast ? And I am not even talking about the bots and level 85/80/80/80 that PKed 5x ppl in VoS in order to prove is legit...
Yep, Spudnik is right, we are too good over here, so good that we can only play with ourselves, we are autonomous playing machines, we forget about community, friendship, trust, truth, relaxation, we are too good for that.
I keep wondering how can ppl with kids and full time jobs be afraid to lose some 1% (after circlet and clan hall rez+clan luck) to some random PKer so they can be bullied into submission or even give bots what they want, "defend themselves". Arent they tired of being bullied at work by some boss, by the government that breaks their privacy, by the neighbours that count on the fact that litigation is expensive and slow ? Dint they have enough that feel the need to bow here, on their money to some bored fully automated 12 yo ?
Yep, human nature has it's misteries, it comes from the faulty society that needs to bully ppl to keep "order". Be it with the force of the law like in dictatorships or by the might of money in the democracies, we stifle dissent, we hate "troublemakers", we only accept ppl that "dont rock the boat", ppl without ideas, without spine, without mind, talking tools.
So much so were they "tamed", that they are forced by their reflexes to behave the same here and still consider theyhave fun ! Spend their hard earned money through humiliations and hard work for more humiliations and hard work ?
It is hard to believe, but for them it is hard to believe a cl can be friendly and helpful, that tries to explain, write guides, help relax and have fun.
They are used to the contrary, and we wonder we have fewer and fewer players ? Whom we'll bully if we chase them away so soon ? At least let them "build" up something so wont be so easy to dropout, you will bully more later, dont PK then at level 5x, FFS...
M
A bit longer explanation.
What we see now is result of few years of very stupid decisions done by NC.
Drop rate items/adena was low as exp rate was terribly low.
Most cases person who was grinding few months to get B grade was able to gather enough materials / adena to craft something.
Ofc lazy ppl came and they wanted all NOW.
Here we have dark side of L2.
They using bot 'increased' exp rate by 4-5 (botting 24/7)
They were not gathering mats to craft, they wanted adena to BUY.
E-bay of almost unlimited number of adena were causing stupid situation.
Prices of top weapon were/are insane but ppl were/are still buying them.
Not top items were/are sold below craft prices, as e-bayers were/are not interested, and who had/have them wanted sell them asap to not loose more.
That practically killed market of non top items.
And whatever you would do with adena drop rate it wouldn't help.
After H5 market of A grade is well balanced.
Prices at NPC are fixed and fair enough to grind ALL equipment during journey of 61-76.
In GoD S grade going be at NPC cheap as well, that should solve a problem of grind to 80.
What next?
Increasing adena drop rate even 100x not let 'poor' player to buy R85 nor R95 when they hit 85/95. Prices would be increased to sky to follow e-bayers, not grinders, as those can pay always more then simple player.
Short conclusion.
Solution would be increase full-drop rate or make crafting much easier (successful and less mats consumable) or putting all stuff at NPC shops.
In last case changing Adena drop rate would really help all community but I'm not sure if it would be good step in some kind of RPG when all would have access to goods almost without special efforts.
This proves the experience newbies are having over here. Do we wonder they drop so fast ? And I am not even talking about the bots and level 85/80/80/80 that PKed 5x ppl in VoS in order to prove is legit...
(....)
M
Mao I see that that PK'er did some trauma to you.
I think it is at least 4th post when you mention that situation, always without any relation to topic.
Mao I see that that PK'er did some trauma to you.
I think it is at least 4th post when you mention that situation, always without any relation to topic.
You may want to keep offtopic comments in the same post. Double posting wont make you right.
As for putting everything in NPC shop... It depends at which price. If it will cost 20 bn, that wont be made out of adena farming, not even by the 24/7 no shot trains. Maybe they lay out the foundations for microtransactions, you can buy your gear with money from NCSoft, who knows...
M
I will refrain from voting due to the lack of reasonable options. I do support a mild increase in adena drops, but 4.5X adena or no adena drops are completely irrational options.
I would be happy if they would just remove the manor system and return base material drops to the way they were before the manor system. If you still want manor for castle items then make it available to castle owning clans but have the manor fruit. Purchase the full items from the castle. This way everyone out trying to collect materials to craft can get them at a decent rate without fighting automated turn ins once per day, and the castle owning clans will have to do thier own work to get items from the castle.
I would be happy if they would just remove the manor system and return base material drops to the way they were before the manor system. If you still want manor for castle items then make it available to castle owning clans but have the manor fruit. Purchase the full items from the castle. This way everyone out trying to collect materials to craft can get them at a decent rate without fighting automated turn ins once per day, and the castle owning clans will have to do thier own work to get items from the castle.
I would actually go for this. As long as they removed the level requirement from all seeds for the territory and let them be used on any monster you chose. And maybe the manor option should be open to allies of castle holding clans as well.
Increased adena drops will cause a massive spike of inflation for the L2 NA/EU economies. We will have to wait and see how vitality effects drop rates in GoD. There is no short term fix from my view point worth exploring until God hits the live servers.
Increased adena drops will cause a massive spike of inflation for the L2 NA/EU economies. We will have to wait and see how vitality effects drop rates in GoD. There is no short term fix from my view point worth exploring until God hits the live servers.
I think rebalancing the adena drops would make more sense. Possibly the way adena drops balance with Vitality may reflect, somewhat, what Hels is talking about in the future with GoD. Although I think getting more full-drops, and other useful drops (even as simple as element stones) is more useful/important. Up until H5 - just a few months ago - we were definitely getting much more full drops (low S-grade, anyways, in Dino Island - I can state that for a fact with my personal experience).
The real question might be - how long until GoD gets to NA? Will it be 5 months (probably not), 10 months (more likely), over a year (possibly).
How much of a population will even be left here by then - especially if it takes quite awhile for GoD - if things don't improve (at least back to pre-H5)?
We all already hear that many new players are having problems - although the "Hero Boxes" (if new players were able to get them) are helping some. Do I think there will be a sharp drop off once the Hero Boxes are gone? No, of course not (a lot of new players and returning players didn't get those boxes anyways) - but I do think numbers will continue to decrease, and more so as those with Hero Box items disappear. Also remember, many new players may put in some long hours - at least first, but that may not last long - especially with summer now here, and we know activilty naturally drops quit a bit.
You can't work the market, only high level clans can help much with S-grade items (and those are mostly going to go to the higher players - not the new, lower-level ones - if you're even lucky enough to be in such a clan), and you're getting the same level adena drops (and almost zero full drops of any value everywhere) as you did in 70s and low 80s areas as you did in levels 40-60 areas. Most new players aren't also going to run a bunch of accounts to work the miniscule market system we have now either - they may make one (if they're lucky) extra account to help.
If we're balancing on the fence between being able to support 2 servers (remember, I would guess if we get down to one server - it's an ominous situation) by GoD or before GoD, it may be difficult to recover from that - at least past the first few months. Many are hoping that NCSoft will fix a lot of this in GoD - I hope they do. But if it takes a long time, and things go as they are, it might not make much difference anyway. Down to 2 servers already, and numbers still dropping and will likely continue to drop - we may have just a shell of a game left by the time GoD does come out.
if you are in party, the party might have gotten 10mil that hour of pve, but you might of only gotten 400k. Or maybe I was solo and got all 4 stones that hour or the full drop. The game technically dropped the right % of loot, you just didnt get it cause you were in party and it was on random or by turn or whatever...
and how many people can solo this game xp wise, and how many parties divide up all the loot when its over?
I think rebalancing the adena drops would make more sense. Possibly the way adena drops balance with Vitality may reflect, somewhat, what Hels is talking about in the future with GoD. Although I think getting more full-drops, and useful other useful drops (even as simple as element stones) is more useful/important. Up until H5 - just a few months ago - we were definitely getting much more full drops (low S-grade, anyways, in Dino Island - I can state that for a fact with my personal experience).
The real question might be - how long until GoD gets to NA? Will it be 5 months (probably not), 10 months (more likely), over a year (possibly).
How much of a population will even be here by then - especially if it takes quite awhile for GoD - if things don't improve (at least back to pre-H5)?
We all already hear that many new players are having problems - although the "Hero Boxes" (if new players were able to get them) are helping some. Do I think there will be a sharp drop off once the Hero Boxes are gone? No, of course not (a lot of new players and returning players didn't get those boxes anyways) - but I do think numbers will continue to decrease, and more so as those with Hero Box items disappear.
You can't work the market, only high level clans can help much with S-grade items (and those are mostly going to go to the higher players - not the new, lower-level ones - if you're even lucky enough to be in such a clan), and you're getting the same level adena drops (and almost zero full drops of any value everywhere) as you did in 70s and low 80s as you did in levels 40-60 areas. Most new players aren't also going to run a bunch of accounts to work the miniscule system we have now either - may one (if they're lucky) extra account to help.
If we're balancing on the fence between being able to support 2 servers (remember, I would guess if we get down to one server - it's an ominous situation) by GoD or before GoD, it may be difficult to recover from that - at least past the first few months. Many are hoping that NCSoft will fix a lot of this in GoD - I hope they do. But if it takes a long time, and things go as they are, it might not make much difference anyway. Down to 2 servers already, and numbers still dropping and will likely continue to drop - me have have just a shell of a game left by the GoD does come out.
The only re-balancing that needs to be done is the adena drop amount in higher hunting areas. Other than that, I think things are fine as is.
As for the GoD update, I think there is a push by the Dev team to put that on the live servers as fast as possible because it changes the game completed. If it was a normal update I would say it would take longer, but this update clearly is designed to pull players back in, or even attract new players. So I would say six months would be a reasonable time frame (October/November release for NA/EU).
Short conclusion.
putting all stuff at NPC shops.
In last case changing Adena drop rate would really help all community but I'm not sure if it would be good step in some kind of RPG when all would have access to goods almost without special efforts.
It would be good, all gear would be on shop, at a reasonable price. (armor sets sealed - jewelery sealed)
Crafted items should all be MW items, a crafted item would be a RARE item. Better than the one on the shop.
SS should be removed from NPC after C grade at least - get SS by crafting.
Basic gear, gear that ppl needs to be able to farm should be on shop at a reasonable price for all GRADES.
you can still enjoy the game like that. if you wanted an upper edge, you would farm with the incresed amount of adena drop. and in a month you should be able to buy a MW weapon from the dwarf in giran for example.
The economy would be based on:
Enchant Scrolls, Elemental Stones, Gemstones, Epics, ETC.
Up until H5 - just a few months ago - we were definitely getting much more full drops (low S-grade, anyways, in Dino Island - I can state that for a fact with my personal experience).
And after High Five you would get 200+ wind stones grinding for less time it took you to get 1 full S-Grade drop in Dino.
While I don't think more adena should drop, I would certainly approve of zones having the mat drops recalibrated based on the hunting levels. Hellbound dropping Nightmare armor parts does not sound right to me.
I would get behind the drop rates for materials increasing without question. The creation of the Department of Aden & Elmore welfare is what I am dead set against.
While we are on this subject, why is it that the beasts excrete piles of Adena when slain in the first place? They should only drop items that make up their actual parts (animal skin, bones… etc.). Mobs that are equipped with items such as armor and weapons should be the only ones dropping broken parts or whole items of what they actually use. I can see these guys dropping some pocket change as well. This would explain also why the amount of Adena would not be in the millions per kill as requested by some in this thread. Not many in real life walk around town with a couple hundred thousand in their satchel to fulfill their daily routines.
Why would someone have to be on disability to be able to make enough cash in game to upgrade themselves?
I have a full time job, and I still manage to get things done in game, and gear myself.
I do agree with Givemeinfo on this one though.
Maybe the ppl shouting the loudest about increasing adena drops just needs to learn how to play the game? Especially since you guys think increasing adena drops will magically make everyone rich enough to buy good gear. Ppl will charge more for their wares when ppl have more money. You will be just as poor. And clueless.
How many people in L2 have you plvled to 82+ for you partys/clan?
How many close friends from different top oly classes you have that were/are heros,(or how many toons you have heros)to know what it takes to made the gear for oly?
Are you a PL in good pvp clan for more than 1 year?
How many lvl10-11 active clans have you tried to organise?
How many 80+lvl members of clan/your constant party you have geared?
How many pvps your constant/cc is wining every week against enemy clan to make a raid?
If your answers to above questions are more NO then YES,you speak too much about subjects you dont have own expirience in game.
L2 is not i play solo with my boxes and i keep all drops for me and i am fine,this is call boting even if you are not using programs you still behave like a bot.L2 means you need share every tiny drop or spend much more shots so you can plvl friends/clannies/members of your party even if that means they will quit game and you will need to do the same with others and when you say adena drops have to increase we refer to players that want to play L2 and do ALL in game.And they have every right to claim that.
In addition, the fact that anyone who played before the Vitality system was introduced got the benefit of 1x xp for 1x drops.... while no one who started after that did.
But yes, trying to get save for 2000+ S gems (200 million AA), 150x 5 element stones/crystals for armor, then 60 element stones + 60 element crystals for weapon... and that's if you got weapon and armor free for S84, to have the basic hunting gear, not even pvp worthy.
4.5x adena drops won't touch that amount if you farmed monsters for 5 more years. The increase was for player retention, not to play in the big sandbox.
I posted the poll for helping retain new players who come into the game... but so many people raised another really great point.
WHY do high level monsters drop the same or less parts/materials/adena than lower level monsters when at higher levels, everything costs multiples more, with far far more money sinks?
Why do high leveled monsters drop parts well below their own level grade?
The whole adena / drop issue really does need to be rebalanced.
How many people in L2 have you plvled to 82+ for you partys/clan?
How many close friends from different top oly classes you have that were/are heros,(or how many toons you have heros)to know what it takes to made the gear for oly?
Are you a PL in good pvp clan for more than 1 year?
How many lvl10-11 active clans have you tried to organise?
How many 80+lvl members of clan/your constant party you have geared?
How many pvps your constant/cc is wining every week against enemy clan to make a raid?
If your answers to above questions are more NO then YES,you speak too much about subjects you dont have own expirience in game.
L2 is not i play solo with my boxes and i keep all drops for me and i am fine,this is call boting even if you are not using programs you still behave like a bot.L2 means you need share every tiny drop or spend much more shots so you can plvl friends/clannies/members of your party even if that means they will quit game and you will need to do the same with others and when you say adena drops have to increase we refer to players that want to play L2 and do ALL in game.And they have every right to claim that.
You are delusional if you think you set the rules about what ppl can speak about.
Especially when you think I need to be pvping to comment on pve issues.
If you fail at this game, that is your own fault, not mine.
In addition, the fact that anyone who played before the Vitality system was introduced got the benefit of 1x xp for 1x drops.... while no one who started after that did.
But yes, trying to get save for 2000+ S gems (200 million AA), 150x 5 element stones/crystals for armor, then 60 element stones + 60 element crystals for weapon... and that's if you got weapon and armor free for S84, to have the basic hunting gear, not even pvp worthy.
4.5x adena drops won't touch that amount if you farmed monsters for 5 more years. The increase was for player retention, not to play in the big sandbox.
Sounds like you complain about stuff you dont understand.
That dont sound like "basic hunting gear" at all. You should be able to easily gear yourself for regular hunting, just like everyone else has done. Why you are unable to do so is a mystery. Maybe you spend money on stuff you dont really need?
With your "idea" on how to fix stuff, those element stones would be back to 3-5 mil in no time, not the 1m they are at now, and you would still not be able to afford them.
Or are you also gonna suggest we have to lock down prices from now, even if you make more adena drop?
Sounds like you complain about stuff you dont understand.
That dont sound like "basic hunting gear" at all. You should be able to easily gear yourself for regular hunting, just like everyone else has done. Why you are unable to do so is a mystery. Maybe you spend money on stuff you dont really need?
With your "idea" on how to fix stuff, those element stones would be back to 3-5 mil in no time, not the 1m they are at now, and you would still not be able to afford them.
Or are you also gonna suggest we have to lock down prices from now, even if you make more adena drop?
In addition, the fact that anyone who played before the Vitality system was introduced got the benefit of 1x xp for 1x drops.... while no one who started after that did.
But yes, trying to get save for 2000+ S gems (200 million AA), 150x 5 element stones/crystals for armor, then 60 element stones + 60 element crystals for weapon... and that's if you got weapon and armor free for S84, to have the basic hunting gear, not even pvp worthy.
4.5x adena drops won't touch that amount if you farmed monsters for 5 more years. The increase was for player retention, not to play in the big sandbox.
Hele you have to understand ONE thing.
Adena is currency.
"currency refers to physical objects generally accepted as a medium of exchange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_of_exchange)."
Currency in principle is not worth anything.
To make you reach you need more things to exchange... not more medium to exchange.
Simple 4 time more adena, means more or less all goods become 4 times more expensive.
Ofc if you do same time 4 times more swords/armour/etc rate stays roughly same.
But if you JUST increase 4x rate of items - prices drop .. roughly 4 times.
Those simple calculation stop works as there is in-depended supplier as NPC shop.
Your point about 4,5 x increase rate of drop is ok .. but drop of items not adena.
P.S. Perfect example to understand spoiled currency concept is Zimbabwe case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe
They instead of generating/harvesting goods were creating money (Adena)
As result practically all transaction based on currency were stopped when people realised that 'someone' is creating currency and they can't set exchange rate.
They even refuse to get salary in currency as they knew as next day currency as exchange tool has less 'power' that today.
They retuned to barter - direct exchange of goods as they notice that those are stable and can't be created :)
To translate to L2 world they were constantly increasing Adena drop from monsters.
Start was at x1 changing rate to x1000 not changing other elements. (no more goods at market just only Adena)
Hele you have to understand ONE thing.
Adena is currency.
"currency refers to physical objects generally accepted as a medium of exchange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_of_exchange)."
Currency in principle is not worth anything.
To make you reach you need more things to exchange... not more medium to exchange.
Simple 4 time more adena, means more or less all goods become 4 times more expensive.
Ofc if you do same time 4 times more swords/armour/etc rate stays roughly same.
But if you JUST increase 4x rate of items - prices drop .. roughly 4 times.
Those simple calculation stop works as there is in-depended supplier as NPC shop.
Your point about 4,5 x increase rate of drop is ok .. but drop of items not adena.
P.S. Perfect example to understand spoiled currency concept is Zimbabwe case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe
They instead of generating/harvesting goods were creating money (Adena)
As result practically all transaction based on currency were stopped when people realised that 'someone' is creating currency and they can't set exchange rate.
They even refuse to get salary in currency as they knew as next day currency as exchange tool has less 'power' that today.
They retuned to barter - direct exchange of goods as they notice that those are stable and can't be created :)
To translate to L2 world they were constantly increasing Adena drop from monsters.
Start was at x1 changing rate to x1000 not changing other elements. (no more goods at market just only Adena)
Don't bother Serca, you are discussing with stock trader, who understands teh economy ;)
Why do high leveled monsters drop parts well below their own level grade?
This is a valid point. For example level 78 mobs 6x dropping a and b grade.
It is true drop distribution is skewed, but this has to do with legacy mobs, they only fixed the most bizarre drops, but much more need a rethink.
For example, in 2 days been spoiling for a recipe and mobs went from yellow to deep blue in more than 10 hours of grinding without recipe. B grade one... Some old story, but still valid today. I mean, do spoilers need to delevel for a recipe B grade ??? Or maybe this is the reason mobs 7x still spoil/drop b grade, to help ppl that would otherwise need delevel...
If we spend 15 levels to get a recipe useful in the first 5-6 of them, then something is wrong with the drops.
What I said above doesnt invalidate at all the theory that more adena will mean higher prices, nor proves that ppl cant afford "life" in l2 world, as you know countless ppl made it, some even fully legit, lost everything, then made it again and helped other ppl start legit, l2 is a complex game and will remain complex even after GoD, ppl need to actively seek ways to make money or to provide for themselves. Failure to do so does not give the right to come and ask for an easier game. If you want easier an game then l2 is not for you, you are losing time and money here.
M
I posted the poll for helping retain new players who come into the game... but so many people raised another really great point.
WHY do high level monsters drop the same or less parts/materials/adena than lower level monsters when at higher levels, everything costs multiples more, with far far more money sinks?
Why do high leveled monsters drop parts well below their own level grade?
The whole adena / drop issue really does need to be rebalanced.
You still miss the point. "Printing" adena wont help. Adena has no value attached on itself. The value it has reflects the goods produced, nothing more, nothing less.
A Stones / day Farmed | B Adena in circulation | Stone Price C
A Stones / day Farmed | 4xB Adena in circulation | Stone Price 4xC
Fidling with adena / items drops won't make game easier for you. It will make the game easier for everyone with the same way. All will readjust proportionally and the poor / rich gap or the geared / not geared / uber geared will remain the same.
Rich Moirai | Poor Dynasty will become Rich Vorpal | Poor Moiral
Rich Vorpal | Poor Moirai will become Rich Elegia | Poor Vorpal
Good +3 Vorpal Jewels | Uber 5/5 Epics will become Good 5/5 Epics / Uber +6 All Epics etc .. you get the point
Even if readjusting adena / drops for only the lower level population to help them, that will mean that the rich will be able to charge more. It's very simple, the poor will have more to spend. And since that does not have to do with fixed NPC prices (I guess that you are not talking about gear you can buy at NPC) the rich will ask for more.
It's very simple. It will always be 10 times harder for me to acquire something in comparison to someone that plays the game 10 times more.
It will always be 10 times harder for me to acquire something in comparison to someone that plays the game 10 times smarter.
We have seen the scenario of adena "pumped" in the game before. We do not like it. It benefited only non-legits (lowbies or not) and the top 5% of server population (legits or not)
I prefer the new situation. I will never have all I want (and how could that be if playing 10 times less than others) but I can create some adena. And the adena I create has some value, it can buy me more than adequate / necessary gear. OFC it can't get me +6 5/5 or +6 15x120 Vorpal Set, or Venimplant +6 Acumen 300 Wind with a crazy augment, how could that be with 1-2 hrs / day ?
But, is that gear absolutely needed for a casual player ?
I am more than happy that I could make myself a +3 15x60 Moirai set, +3 Vorpal Jewels + Freya Neck, Icarus Spirit +3 Acumen 300 Wind playing 1-2 hrs / day.
When level cap was 80 it was inconceivable for an average player to get A grade at 61. Only the weapon was selling for 250+ M. No other way to get it, only buy from other player from market. Even if leveling was on average 2 times slower there was NO WAY to gather 250M farming.
When level cap was 76, byt the way you would hit 40 and needed to switch to C-grade only the weapon would cost 50M+, no other way to get it, only free market.
If you are really concerned about lowbies, life is much simpler nowadays. Adena needed to hit 80 has decreased much more than adena "created".
You simply go to NPC and buy common d, then you go to NPC and buy common C, then you skip B (you are insisting that leveling is to fast so doing 52->61 even in crappy gear will not be a problem), then you go to NPC and buy A-Grade.
And all that equipment does not loose it's value as much as in the past. Because it's NPC equipment. Charge a bit less than NPC ans someone will buy. And even if there is not a buyer (or being able to exchange at NPC) and you are forced to crystallize it you loose much less than it's original value even if you sell crystals to NPC. If you use crystals for yourself (buying someting else from NPC / craft yous shots / sell shots crafted) you loose nothing.
Game is both easier & faster for 1->80. I don't need the over inflating economy of the past. Where whatever I did, whichever tricks I was imagining, playing the market all the time, playing for more hours I was always poor and hundrends of random non-factors were running around with billions.
Now I may not be rich, but my hard earned adena has some value. I can buy myself at least the needed.
The only thing that I would welcome as a change is a slight modification of drops according to mobs level. Examining the current amount / qualities / price of gear freely available, drops from some mobs look very silly. I feel its useless to have countless Level 78 - 85 mobs insist dropping huge quantities of Metallic Fiber. FFS, change that, what do do with 20K Metallic Fiber and you still giving me more at Level 85 ? To pay for mailing them to alt dwarf storing in warehouse ? Or to make me go to Grocery everytime I finish XP ? Just increase adena drop by 300 or 400. That's an example of something I would see as a welcomed change in drop.
If drops generally aren't going to get a boost, base adena drops need to.
Moving away from adena for a moment, an example is stones.
I regularly go hunting for the whole day (couple parties).
If I'm lucky I'll get up to 2 stones (a fire and a water or something).
If unlucky I've had nothing except a few keymats and adams & oricalcums.
You can't element your armor fast enough even with a whole grade change at this rate.
You would go from 80->84 before you have got enough stones to finish elementing the original set if you rely on the drops...
The point is, if you're broke, you rely on drops because any adena you have has to goto 81/83 books and/or s-gems to afford that ellusive SA. For broke people its a bit of a vicious circle, adena sinks grow at the same rate that you get base mob adena income. The only chance to 'break out' is via Events practically.
Get a 80 + box DC and solo delusion, or get a friend DC, also a ton of area's you can solo in DV were you can get a ton of ele stones a day. Grp's are for better XP spots/less drop's with splitting them, its a choice.
Couple day's a week soloing and your set would be elemented.
I do think they should increase the base adena drop rate a little bit though~~
While we are on this subject, why is it that the beasts excrete piles of Adena when slain in the first place?
Covered by thenoobcomic (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=24) (as well as everything else in MMOs):
You are delusional if you think you set the rules about what ppl can speak about.
Especially when you think I need to be pvping to comment on pve issues.
If you fail at this game, that is your own fault, not mine.
Even your definition of botting fails.
People that say their opinions and vote for issues they have limited or no expirience at all ,shouldn't speak,if they want to help others and not spam on anything.Anyone who is not directly attached with either farming to sell and make a living in real life or with pvp in game in all grades inside clans,has a very limited knowledge of what is going on everyday in game.
Hele you have to understand ONE thing.
Adena is currency.
"currency refers to physical objects generally accepted as a medium of exchange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_of_exchange)."
Currency in principle is not worth anything.
To make you reach you need more things to exchange... not more medium to exchange.
Simple 4 time more adena, means more or less all goods become 4 times more expensive.
Ofc if you do same time 4 times more swords/armour/etc rate stays roughly same.
But if you JUST increase 4x rate of items - prices drop .. roughly 4 times.
Those simple calculation stop works as there is in-depended supplier as NPC shop.
Your point about 4,5 x increase rate of drop is ok .. but drop of items not adena.
P.S. Perfect example to understand spoiled currency concept is Zimbabwe case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe
They instead of generating/harvesting goods were creating money (Adena)
As result practically all transaction based on currency were stopped when people realised that 'someone' is creating currency and they can't set exchange rate.
They even refuse to get salary in currency as they knew as next day currency as exchange tool has less 'power' that today.
They retuned to barter - direct exchange of goods as they notice that those are stable and can't be created :)
To translate to L2 world they were constantly increasing Adena drop from monsters.
Start was at x1 changing rate to x1000 not changing other elements. (no more goods at market just only Adena)
The difference is though, that there are fixed prices that also play a vital part in the game. For example, Nevit's hourglasses, soulshots and other consumables are sold on a fixed price basis.
The difference is though, that there are fixed prices that also play a vital part in the game. For example, Nevit's hourglasses, soulshots and other consumables are sold on a fixed price basis.
+1
How many millions a player that pvps needs to spend everyweek on crafting cp/buying from mamon small cp/getting cp spring potions/crafting elixirs/buying sige-tw elixirs and scrolls?
I can tell you i spend more than 10m and im not doing even pvp everyday as i used in the past.By lowering adena drops we would see big difference on those expenses and on teleports expenses.Try do raids/xp with 2 accounts and do (lets say clanhall in aden)aden/godard/aden/studgard/adena/giran just for raiding,then add aden-oren-hunters village or adena-heine(most commons places for nukers) in 1 day,its more than 1m for teleports and what was our income in that day?propably 500k or less.
I've allread said that not only adena needs raise but all drops from mobs and raids.
The difference is though, that there are fixed prices that also play a vital part in the game. For example, Nevit's hourglasses, soulshots and other consumables are sold on a fixed price basis.
Nevit's hourglasses are not vital items. If you can afford them, you have too much adena - and eliminating that adena is exactly why they were put into the game.
Soulshots aren't "sold on a fixed price basis", they used to cost ~3 times more when crystals were costing ~3.5 times more than now.
The difference is though, that there are fixed prices that also play a vital part in the game. For example, Nevit's hourglasses, soulshots and other consumables are sold on a fixed price basis.
They do ofc.
But they just decrees number of adena at market, making overall prices lower.
Other words if you don't use all those things, you have more adena and you can be called 'rich'.
Ofc if you using them all (wasting adena), and you miss adena .. that is your problem and normally you should be call 'poor'
Being 'poor' or 'rich' is your problem not market :)
If NC give money to all,exchange rate of currency to goods will change and still you will be 'poor'.
Decrease number of adena has no real influence of market.
It makes NPC shop more expensive ... but dont tell me that your real problem is buying spirit ore/soul ore/magical symbol/ etc.
Problem is with buying equipment ...but If you are casual player and you don't play with others who farm on regular bases zaken/frint/Tezza etc you stay always poor casual player.
Simple truth is, others have goods, what you are missing.
They are 'rich' becuse they have something what other missing and want.
When Tezza become not be profitable they switch to other RB, while you still will be collecting 1000 adena per mob...asking for 4500, while they already will be running in R85 ...
People that say their opinions and vote for issues they have limited or no expirience at all ,shouldn't speak,if they want to help others and not spam on anything.Anyone who is not directly attached with either farming to sell and make a living in real life or with pvp in game in all grades inside clans,has a very limited knowledge of what is going on everyday in game.
I have enormous experience with adena. I've had daily contact with it for nearly 7 years.
Have I pvped for 7 years? Nope.
Does that have anything to do with working the market, or making adena? Nope.
Could I care less what raids your clan kill? Probably.
Hele you have to understand ONE thing.
Adena is currency.
"currency refers to physical objects generally accepted as a medium of exchange (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_of_exchange)."
Currency in principle is not worth anything.
To make you reach you need more things to exchange... not more medium to exchange.
Simple 4 time more adena, means more or less all goods become 4 times more expensive.
Ofc if you do same time 4 times more swords/armour/etc rate stays roughly same.
But if you JUST increase 4x rate of items - prices drop .. roughly 4 times.
Those simple calculation stop works as there is in-depended supplier as NPC shop.
Your point about 4,5 x increase rate of drop is ok .. but drop of items not adena.
P.S. Perfect example to understand spoiled currency concept is Zimbabwe case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe
They instead of generating/harvesting goods were creating money (Adena)
As result practically all transaction based on currency were stopped when people realised that 'someone' is creating currency and they can't set exchange rate.
They even refuse to get salary in currency as they knew as next day currency as exchange tool has less 'power' that today.
They retuned to barter - direct exchange of goods as they notice that those are stable and can't be created :)
To translate to L2 world they were constantly increasing Adena drop from monsters.
Start was at x1 changing rate to x1000 not changing other elements. (no more goods at market just only Adena)
I understand economics fine. It was my University minor.
What you fail to understand is that in a 'real' economy, there is no 'house' to drain it into a black hole and permanently remove that from the economy.
So lets use an analogy you might get.
For example: You need 499 S gems to SA your low grade S84 Vesper weapon.
You need 499 S gems @ 100K AA each = 49,900,000 adena
You make 1 mil adena/hour farming = 49 hours
You give the Black Marketeer 4 adena per AA (Black Hole!), run to Blacksmith Mammon, and get your S gems.
49 hours worth of monster adena came out of the L2 economy. What was returned to circulation? Not one bit of it. Repeat this 1000x a day with every high level who needs to Skill Enchant (adena vanishes) and buy basic hunting materials (Spirit Ores).
The ONLY form of adena circulation is the money dropped from the monsters.... and POOF, it's going OUT again with the purchase from NPC's.
The OTHER way to look at it is Taxes. In game stores are taxes you pay. The difference is, taxes in a real economy immediately recirculate in the economy in the form of salaries paid to gov't employees and materials bought for national improvement (Health care, road concrete, government buildings, etc).
Currently, the tax rate in L2 is close to 100% of your adena drops. That is, it costs you nearly as much as all the adena you farm to buy your Spirit Ores/Eisenhad waters/OE skills/S gems, and STORE BOUGHT ARMOR. The EXTRAs you get from farming such as drops and SAVINGS from OLD hunted gear get sold in Giran to recirculate in the economy.
If everything coming in is going back out again, then the amount being recirculated gets smaller and smaller.... people become poorer and poorer. The money is not shifting to the richest, it's vanishing into the NPCs.
We are currently paying more than 90% tax rates (the amount that is NOT staying in your inventory but going OUT for NPC costs) and the higher level we are, the MORE tax rate we pay, because there is no one who can afford to OE skills or buy their SA gems from farming adena alone. More leaves the system forever than comes in to recirculate.
You finally get it? Why is this so hard to comprehend?
I understand economics fine. It was my University minor.
(....)
If everything coming in is going back out again, then the amount being recirculated gets smaller and smaller.... people become poorer and poorer. The money is not shifting to the richest, it's vanishing into the NPCs.
(...)
You finally get it? Why is this so hard to comprehend?
I think .. if you are US im not surprised why Dollar has problem as currency ;)
Seriously.
You are right ..as long we are talking about only NPC.
I'm playing that game right now as casual player.
I have NO problems with buying good from NPC.
As I know I'm low with adena ... im not doing Augment nor buying Nevit.
Reset of story is just bull_hit
If all in market see that there is no enough money to buy goods they drop prices ... what in fact we see.
S80 stuff cost 150 kk what is amount below of craft costs.
What you cant buy and you ask so much is .. S84 but that is top equipment.
To get it:
Do Zaken/Tezza/Frint/SoD/SoA regularly and I guarantee you ... you wont see problem with that equipment.
Right now as your biggest effort is at forum instead of farming goods in game... you ask to give you all because you miss it ;)
As about missing adena I repeat it.
No problem.
If number of adena is low it means number of items to exchange has to be changed.
Thats all.
Adena has no value - it is only medium to exchange goods.
When there is low number of medium ... you just change exchange ratio what we see in open market in game.
NPC market is not using it but still what you want buy is not sprit ore...
I think .. if you are US im not surprised why Dollar has problem as currency ;)
Seriously.
You are right ..as long we are talking about only NPC.
I'm playing that game right now as casual player.
I have NO problems with buying good from NPC.
As I know I'm low with adena ... im not doing Augment nor buying Nevit.
Reset of story is just bull_hit
If all in market see that there is no enough money to buy goods they drop prices ... what in fact we see.
S80 stuff cost 150 kk what is amount below of craft costs.
What you cant buy and you ask so much is .. S84 but that is top equipment.
To get it:
Do Zaken/Tezza/Frint/SoD/SoA regularly and I guarantee you ... you wont see problem with that equipment.
Right now as your biggest effort is at forum instead of farming goods in game... you ask to give you all because you miss it ;)
And where are you? Greece? Your economy is doing just great there, maybe some economics education is called for in some non-US countries. For all the complaints about the US, our economy is still the world driver...the world currency is still the US dollar, not the Euro or the Yen or the RMB, and the US sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold. We must be somewhat good at juggling economics huh:)? And maybe the reason why is because the economists in your nation thinks like you do, which is the opposite of what actually occurs. The nations that overtake the US economically can dictate the worldwide money policies... and no one's even close. Maybe we know something?
If you do Zaken/Tezza/Frint/SOD/SOA regularly, they will give you S gems, Spirit Ores, and Over Enchanting $$? Really?
And where are you? Greece? Your economy is doing just great there, maybe some economics education is called for in some non-US countries. For all the complaints about the US, our economy is still the world driver...the world currency is still the US dollar, not the Euro or the Yen or the RMB, and the US sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold.
Actually... the world currency nowadays is the euro. Still it's attached to the dollar because of the impregnation of US holdings (JP Morgan, etc) in the economy of EU countries, but everybody prefers using the euro because if China stops buying US treasury bonds just during one hour, the dollar returns to the value of its paper.
But that's out of topic.
In L2 in full party, I PvE and PvP and I have enough of the adena drops from 80+ areas to buy my consumables. Before, my funds would jump up when I would get a lucky cEWS. Those days are over. cEWS don't sell. So basically, as long as I don't put myself into it, I keep the same amount of adenas. It grows only a little. My stones go directly on my armor, the dynasty mats go to NPC, but I keep normal mats. I have a few items for sale (books, shiny cubics...), but it will sell when it will. I must say for now we are leveling party members so we're not really on the money making spots. But I don't see why I should panick. I don't suffer the vanishing of adenas.
And again, players don't quit over the lack of adenas.
Actually... the world currency nowadays is the euro. Still it's attached to the dollar because of the impregnation of US holdings (JP Morgan, etc) in the economy of EU countries, but everybody prefers using the euro because if China stops buying US treasury bonds just during one hour, the dollar returns to the value of its paper.
But that's out of topic.
In L2 in full party, I PvE and PvP and I have enough of the adena drops from 80+ areas to buy my consumables. Before, my funds would jump up when I would get a lucky cEWS. Those days are over. cEWS don't sell. So basically, as long as I don't put myself into it, I keep the same amount of adenas. It grows only a little. My stones go directly on my armor, the dynasty mats go to NPC, but I keep normal mats. I have a few items for sale (books, shiny cubics...), but it will sell when it will. I must say for now we are leveling party members so we're not really on the money making spots. But I don't see why I should panick. I don't suffer the vanishing of adenas.
And again, players don't quit over the lack of adenas.
Um... no one uses the Euro in International Trade of any type, except with the EU. No one. All quotes for all goods, from shipping to oil to even gold and silver is in US Dollars. The ENTIRE commodities market, including food futures worldwide, are in US dollars. Even huge Scandinavian stocks, such as STO (Statoil ASA) or huge Chinese stocks such as Bidu (Baidu) trade on US exchanges, because that's the worldwide currency and market.
Every single fluctuation in the US dollar affects every single one of your banks and assets worldwide, and there's no sign of it changing in our lifetimes. Because we know our economics, and how to keep ourselves #1. The only thing that is measured in EU is intra-nation trade between countries in the EU. No wonder simple game economics is so complex for people here, but this is a completely unrelated discussion.
You yourself stated clearly the problem, yet you still cannot see it.
"So basically, as long as I don't put myself into it, I keep the same amount of adenas."
That works because if you want more gear, need more OE, etc etc, you can sell off some of the gear you have, you already have a fall back savings to pull from.
What happens if you are a new player needing the far more expensive next level gear, with no savings and also "keep the the same amount adenas"? Your game is HALTED.
Yes, you can buy RMT still. Yes, you can buy from other players who are quitting, or who have built up excess savings from past years when the adena ratio was 1:1.
But then what is the POINT of this game when the only viable way to play is to cheat? Not everyone is that desperate to play a video game when in fact there are many other video games that do not require cheating.
My suggestion makes it possible to play WITHOUT cheating, and RETAINING players, particularly new ones.
This was a fun topic... which fed three different threads with a fury of posts. Sadly, it is seems to be just spinning in a circle now. Let’s agree NCSoft should drop more materials and full items but not Adena. Crafting appears to be a viable solution in the next update and Hels is going off to play GW2. All is good now and the universe will be in harmony.
This was a fun topic... which fed three different threads with a fury of posts. Sadly, it is seems to be just spinning in a circle now. Let’s agree NCSoft should drop more materials and full items but not Adena. Crafting appears to be a viable solution in the next update and Hels is going off to play GW2. All is good now and the universe will be in harmony.
Took out my flat joke that no one commented on (ok, was waiting for a few snarky comments, but you people are too serious here).
L2 Adena is the problem, adena needs to be addressed.
Re: Guild Wars 2, check out the video in GameSpot's review... and listen to the answers about PVP. You can spend day 1 in massive pvp and xp and gain gear that way (because everyone drops loot). Unlike GW1, GW2 is a massive multiplayer world, no instances. PVP is skill and not gear/level based, you are ramped up to same levels as your opponents in fights, and there are even server vs server WARS, that can be 30 vs 300. Salesmen are not rewarded more than warriors. You can pvp from day 1, and your skills, choice of weapons/skill/twitch speed matters more than how many hours you sat in Giran selling stuff to afford your next weapon.
If you do Zaken/Tezza/Frint/SOD/SOA regularly, they will give you S gems, Spirit Ores, and Over Enchanting $$? Really?
Not I'm not from Greece :)
I have in memory note of 20.000.000 what was worth nothing
Guess if you know really are economy expert.
About game.
If you do exp in DV you can spoil S games.
If you do exp you can spoil/drop EWS/EAS etc.
If you do SoA/SoD ... farming crystals to various rewards ... EWS as well.
I see you have really problem with Spirit Ore.
Pm me I can give you some :D
L2 Adena is the problem, adena needs to be addressed.
Now I got it. Adena is the problem. Weeeee .. Lets "print" adena. All will have what they want .. It was so simple .. What idiots we are .. There is indeed a magical solution. Make drops x5 keep NPC prices same and all will buy their Vorpal easy ..
Oh wait .. Vorpal not selling at Grocery .. Only drops from Tezza .. Hmmm .. OK .. Lets fix that to .. Lower the 600K tokens from Oly Manager to 50K Tokens for the main part .. See, easy solution .. Fixed also .. Oh wait .. S84 weapons drop from Tezza / Freya .. Hmmm .. Add them to Oly Manager for 100K Tokens also .. Oh wait .. Still need some months to fully gear an S84 Toon with Vorpal and S84 weapon .. Hmmm .. Fix that also .. A full set and a weapon for 100K Tokens .. Oh wait ... Now all ppl stop going to raids, stoped doing Oly and all are full S84 .. And because of vit they all are Level 85 .. Now there is nothing for them to do, they can't PvP because they don't have 5/5 Epics .. Hmmm .. Lets make Epics available to all ..
Hmm .. Market crashed .. Noone needs nothing anymore, ppl charge insane prices because there is clearly a surpluss of adena, adena has no value, market has nothing to trade for which ppl would spend their billions .. All have billions but billions have no value .. Lets fix that also .. Hmmm .. There is not a fix for a crashed market ..
What you fail to understand is that there is no value "fixed" to the adena. The only fixed value is NPC items which are not the main concern of ppl. Well, maybe of a slight importance till 70-75. The value adena has is attached with good produced. The scarcity of a good / quantity of adena is the deffining factor.
You avoid commenting on that repeatedly .. If adena drops were x2 Vorpal items would cost x2. They would cost x2 because ppl would have 2 times more to spend. So other ppl would charge twice more.
You seem to ignore the fact that a single Vorpal drop needs a CC of 27 people. Do you think that the value of such kind of an effort is static ? That you would be able to buy with the same adena if all had x2 adena ? That those 27 ppl raiding Tezza / Frint are some kind of idiots that they don't know how much should they charge ?
Doing Freya / Tezza would require about 40 man hours and 27 ppl to agree to meet for 2 hours specific place / time. That 40 man hours have a cost. _IF_ there is a drop it was produced by 40 man hours of 27 84+ toons. 27 84+ fully geared / organized ppl produce a single drop and some times produce nothing at all. You think that they are a bunch of fools that don't know how much they charge for their 40 hours ?
First they use all drops to gear themselves, then they start selling single items expensive, then as more ppl is geared / more items produced prices drop slowly. Does that have something to do with adena droped ? No. The only thing that has to do with adena drops is that those ppl know what is the "cost" for the 40 man hours of a level 84+ toon. With current adena / market situation it is X. If you change adena drops and it's Y the price of Vorpal will change accordingly.
Silly things like Nevit's / NPC do not count. You know why ? Because if Nevit's "felt" twice cheap you would have used two time more of them, you would have leveled even faster and the end result would be the same.
Now I got it. Adena is the problem. Weeeee .. Lets "print" adena. All will have what they want .. It was so simple .. What idiots we are .. There is indeed a magical solution. Make drops x5 keep NPC prices same and all will buy their Vorpal easy ..
Oh wait .. Vorpal not selling at Grocery .. Only drops from Tezza .. Hmmm .. OK .. Lets fix that to .. Lower the 600K tokens from Oly Manager to 50K Tokens for the main part .. See, easy solution .. Fixed also .. Oh wait .. S84 weapons drop from Tezza / Freya .. Hmmm .. Add them to Oly Manager for 100K Tokens also .. Oh wait .. Still need some months to fully gear an S84 Toon with Vorpal and S84 weapon .. Hmmm .. Fix that also .. A full set and a weapon for 100K Tokens .. Oh wait ... Now all ppl stop going to raids, stoped doing Oly and all are full S84 .. And because of vit they all are Level 85 .. Now there is nothing for them to do, they can't PvP because they don't have 5/5 Epics .. Hmmm .. Lets make Epics available to all ..
Hmm .. Market crashed .. Noone needs nothing anymore, ppl charge insane prices because there is clearly a surpluss of adena, adena has no value, market has nothing to trade for which ppl would spend their billions .. All have billions but billions have no value .. Lets fix that also .. Hmmm .. There is not a fix for a crashed market ..
What you fail to understand is that there is no value "fixed" to the adena. The only fixed value is NPC items which are not the main concern of ppl. Well, maybe of a slight importance till 70-75. The value adena has is attached with good produced. The scarcity of a good / quantity of adena is the deffining factor.
You avoid commenting on that repeatedly .. If adena drops were x2 Vorpal items would cost x2. They would cost x2 because ppl would have 2 times more to spend. So other ppl would charge twice more.
You seem to ignore the fact that a single Vorpal drop needs a CC of 27 people. Do you think that the value of such kind of an effort is static ? That you would be able to buy with the same adena if all had x2 adena ? That those 27 ppl raiding Tezza / Frint are some kind of idiots that they don't know how much should they charge ?
Doing Freya / Tezza would require about 40 man hours and 27 ppl to agree to meet for 2 hours specific place / time. That 40 man hours have a cost. _IF_ there is a drop it was produced by 40 man hours of 27 84+ toons. 27 84+ fully geared / organized ppl produce a single drop and some times produce nothing at all. You think that they are a bunch of fools that don't know how much they charge for their 40 hours ?
First they use all drops to gear themselves, then they start selling single items expensive, then as more ppl is geared / more items produced prices drop slowly. Does that have something to do with adena droped ? No. The only thing that has to do with adena drops is that those ppl know what is the "cost" for the 40 man hours of a level 84+ toon. With current adena / market situation it is X. If you change adena drops and it's Y the price of Vorpal will change accordingly.
Silly things like Nevit's / NPC do not count. You know why ? Because if Nevit's "felt" twice cheap you would have used two time more of them, you would have leveled even faster and the end result would be the same.
I'm trying to decipher the babble, and I think I answered you in the other thread... but lets try this again.
If more adena drops, 4.5x more, it's still not enough to BUY vorpal.
As for drops and the costs/man hour, ideally, people will farm the vorpal from Oly or raids, and no, it doesn't take no 2 hours to do Freya, Frint or any bosses cept the dragons unless you count group organizing time, but fine, we use your numbers.
Lets see what I ignored. You said:
"You avoid commenting on that repeatedly .. If adena drops were x2 Vorpal items would cost x2. They would cost x2 because ppl would have 2 times more to spend. So other ppl would charge twice more."
If adena drops were 2x (no, I want them to be 4.5x), vorpal would cost 2x. Why?
Again, 40 hours of hunting yields 40 million adena on average. No one's going to buy vorpal from hunting monsters, they will get it from boss drops/clan, Oly, or they will RMT the adena for it. Even at 4.5x, you're not going to get the 1 billion adena for a full set of Vorpal in MONTHS.
Doubling the prices for Vorpal makes it take that many more months, who in their right mind would do that unless they ALREADY had that much adena?
4.5x the current adena means that a monster that you get 2K from will drop 9K. That will make vorpal go up 2x in price? You can ask anything you want in a market.... someone would have to pay it, and no one would, because get this, even at 9K per monster, you still can't afford 200 mil for 1 piece of armor in 40 hours.
Um... no one uses the Euro in International Trade of any type, except with the EU. No one. All quotes for all goods, from shipping to oil to even gold and silver is in US Dollars. The ENTIRE commodities market, including food futures worldwide, are in US dollars. Even huge Scandinavian stocks, such as STO (Statoil ASA) or huge Chinese stocks such as Bidu (Baidu) trade on US exchanges, because that's the worldwide currency and market.
Every single fluctuation in the US dollar affects every single one of your banks and assets worldwide, and there's no sign of it changing in our lifetimes. Because we know our economics, and how to keep ourselves #1. The only thing that is measured in EU is intra-nation trade between countries in the EU. No wonder simple game economics is so complex for people here, but this is a completely unrelated discussion.
You yourself stated clearly the problem, yet you still cannot see it.
"So basically, as long as I don't put myself into it, I keep the same amount of adenas."
That works because if you want more gear, need more OE, etc etc, you can sell off some of the gear you have, you already have a fall back savings to pull from.
What happens if you are a new player needing the far more expensive next level gear, with no savings and also "keep the the same amount adenas"? Your game is HALTED.
Yes, you can buy RMT still. Yes, you can buy from other players who are quitting, or who have built up excess savings from past years when the adena ratio was 1:1.
But then what is the POINT of this game when the only viable way to play is to cheat? Not everyone is that desperate to play a video game when in fact there are many other video games that do not require cheating.
My suggestion makes it possible to play WITHOUT cheating, and RETAINING players, particularly new ones.
USA is #1 of Third World? The constant increase of debts should hint you where you are going when China will conclude its economy is endogenous and that they can have the rest of the world (as they invest everywhere, including EU) at their feet, they just have to play on a tap to make the dollar fall. Not their interrest to kill US economy with so much treasure bonds, but they have at their disposal the pressure to shut the mouth of anyone. USA drops their pants in front of China like everybody else. Their economy is totally tied to China. And Japan of course, but they don't have as many treasure bonds.
In other words, USA is now a puppet. In average, each Chineseman lends more than one thousand dollars to USA. But how could USA give a lesson in economics when they based theirs on consumption loans. Way to shoot your own feet. Sometimes, it helps EU to be behind. But of course it would help EU more to stop letting American holdings invest in their business, quit euro and restart their industry. Some EU countries are far too dependant of USA.
Applied to L2 (ok that's an abusive transition), it means that no, new players aren't blocked by the lack of adenas because I'm talking about 80+. No need for pvp consumables for new players, their assets grow. Also, as I already said, you can't ignore the history of the game and old players when you're starting now. New players can and will be helped by old players. Their old unsellable stuff will be lent without problem. New players don't have adena problems.
USA is #1 of Third World? The constant increase of debts should hint you where you are going when China will conclude its economy is endogenous and that they can have the rest of the world (as they invest everywhere, including EU) at their feet, they just have to play on a tap to make the dollar fall. Not their interrest to kill US economy with so much treasure bonds, but they have at their disposal the pressure to shut the mouth of anyone. USA drops their pants in front of China like everybody else. Their economy is totally tied to China. And Japan of course, but they don't have as many treasure bonds.
In other words, USA is now a puppet. In average, each Chineseman lends more than one thousand dollars to USA. But how could USA give a lesson in economics when they based theirs on consumption loans. Way to shoot your own feet. Sometimes, it helps EU to be behind. But of course it would help EU more to stop letting American holdings invest in their business, quit euro and restart their industry. Some EU countries are far too dependant of USA.
Applied to L2 (ok that's an abusive transition), it means that no, new players aren't blocked by the lack of adenas because I'm talking about 80+. No need for pvp consumables for new players, their assets grow. Also, as I already said, you can't ignore the history of the game and old players when you're starting now. New players can and will be helped by old players. Their old unsellable stuff will be lent without problem. New players don't have adena problems.
Actually, you are completely wrong about the US-China relationship as well. China HAD to buy US Treasuries, if they didn't, the US would default on the ones they already held. Propping the US dollar up was in China's best interest, because with a lower dollar, Chinese goods would cost more in the US, and it would be cheaper for the US to manufacture rather than outsource. China needed to maintain their domestic manufacturing to keep up with their own double digit growth rate. They didn't loan us money out of generosity, but necessity for their own industries... which will come home to roost in the next few years.
That alone is a bubble, because guess what? If the US defaulted and pulled a Greece, China would be left out of TRILLIONS of dollars without any means to collect it. Who holds the cards, the person who spent the money on the credit card or the person who issued the credit card who's out of money now? Unlike a loan shark, China's in no position to come over and break our legs for their money. They have to keep lending us more, it's not a choice for them. The EU may have their pants down, but the US sure doesn't.
At the very least, we can inflate our way out of debt. We started to do that... it would devalue everything China has spent on our debt.... why don't we? Because China's economy will fall, it already started to, and that has far larger worldwide repercussions. So we stopped. Do not kid yourself that we aren't in control of our, and your, economies.
What we are having trouble with are our OWN domestic bubbles and issues right now, mostly stemming from Bush's stupidity and war costs. This will take time to work out, but is unrelated to our economic power worldwide. Sort of like being in complete control at work, and having a messy marriage at home.
L2 wise, I was talking about player retention for NEW PLAYERS. However, increasing adena would also benefit 80+ players as well... tho to a far lesser degree, because obviously, our costs are way way way higher than can be covered by 4.5x increases in monster adena drops alone.
That said, there's no argument that China's economy will likely surpass ours for #1 GDP within 10 years. That's not unexpected, given their 1.5 billion population vs our 350 million, per person per capita, it's amazing they haven't already. When THAT happens, things might change, but by then, we'll owe them so much money, their entire economy would collapse like Japan's did if we wanted it to. Hrm?
Ugh, had to add since what's obvious to me may not be obvious to anyone else... the POINT is, that China does not have us by the balls economically, we have them by the balls.
4.5x the current adena means that a monster that you get 2K from will drop 9K. That will make vorpal go up 2x in price?
Ok let say we follow logic.
How much vorpal cost now?
100 kk?
Lets assume it.
Now we change rato of adena drop.
4.5 x is for weak.
We set 1 mob 3x lvl near Dion drop 100.000.000
And proportionally all mobs drop 100.000 more then they used to.
You run and slay one mob .. do you really think that someone is so dumb to keep the price 100.000.000 of gloves?!
He had to spend time / SS / your beloved spirit ore/ organize raid with 20 ppl / gear himself / etc.
It is worth ... but not 100.000.000 .. it is just worth as he feel it will be enough.
I guess he increase price 100.000 times :)
Do you really want that?
US economy is in big trouble :)
You repeat what I'm saying by "Not their interrest to kill US economy with so much treasure bonds", ie they have a lot of dollars and it's always better when it's worth something. But you didn't understand that now they can reach an endogenous economy, meaning they don't need to export their goods to USA (or EU). So they can accept to lose some value on the dollars they have in order to force a political decision. For example : "don't put your nose in our political affairs, come to the Olympic Games and smile".
Again you claim that new players need more adenas or they'll quit, but that's totally wrong. New players stay if they are integrated in the community and not disgusted by the cheaters. Nobody quits over the lack of adena. It's part of the difficulty leading to more achievement. Players quit because they don't like to grind and adena drop boost or not, L2 is all about grind.
How to get S84 that's worth 200m? You drop it. If you can't sell it, you can trade them for another part, otherwise you give it to the clan which gives it to someone who needs it and that's 200m saved for that person. Or you can crush it and sell SSS/BSPS and get your precious adenas.
Ok let say we follow logic.
How much vorpal cost now?
100 kk?
Lets assume it.
Now we change rato of adena drop.
4.5 x is for weak.
We set 1 mob 3x lvl near Dion drop 100.000.000
And proportionally all mobs drop 100.000 more then they used to.
You run and slay one mob .. do you really think that someone is so dumb to keep the price 100.000.000 of gloves?!
He had to spend time / SS / your beloved spirit ore/ organize raid with 20 ppl / gear himself / etc.
It is worth ... but not 100.000.000 .. it is just worth as he feel it will be enough.
I guess he increase price 100.000 times :)
Do you really want that?
US economy is in big trouble :)
I don't get your math. The only monsters near Dion are like Cruma, or 30's level, and none of them drop 100,000,000 adena.
People pay what they consider reasonable value, and that's not reasonable value. I'm not saving every dime for 3 weeks, fighting without shots or soul ores (forget noble) for 1 piece of Vorpal, and no one I know would either, they'd try to get it from their clan/oly/RMT... JUST AS THEY DO NOW.
WHY wouldn't the prices go up?
Prices are not based on supply, they are based on DEMAND. You can charge anything that SOMEONE WILL PAY. When asking price exceeds what buyers will pay, it WILL NOT GET SOLD. That's when the price comes down.
Would you pay more than 100-200 adena for a piece of vorpal? I wouldn't. Most people I know wouldn't either.
Point: There is NO correlation with the amount of adena float and the price of goods. There IS a correlation between demand and price of goods. If the demand does not exist for an item at a given price, the price comes down.
People making more may be willing to pay more, but if the average income is 1 mil adena per hour, even at 4.5x that, 4.5 mil per hour, HOW MANY HOURS would it take to get a set of vorpal? More than worth spending 2x the money for, that's for sure.
You repeat what I'm saying by "Not their interrest to kill US economy with so much treasure bonds", ie they have a lot of dollars and it's always better when it's worth something. But you didn't understand that now they can reach an endogenous economy, meaning they don't need to export their goods to USA (or EU). So they can accept to lose some value on the dollars they have in order to force a political decision. For example : "don't put your nose in our political affairs, come to the Olympic Games and smile".
Again you claim that new players need more adenas or they'll quit, but that's totally wrong. New players stay if they are integrated in the community and not disgusted by the cheaters. Nobody quits over the lack of adena. It's part of the difficulty leading to more achievement. Players quit because they don't like to grind and adena drop boost or not, L2 is all about grind.
How to get S84 that's worth 200m? You drop it. If you can't sell it, you can trade them for another part, otherwise you give it to the clan which gives it to someone who needs it and that's 200m saved for that person. Or you can crush it and sell SSS/BSPS and get your precious adenas.
No, I apparently don't get what you're saying at all. I said they CAN"T kill the US economy by dumping treasury bonds. All that would do is lower the interest rate on T-bills, which is currently at a historical low anyway, so no one cares.
China is nowhere near a self contained economy yet, and actually, their growth has already slowed substantially and continues to slow. It is true that they are now in a stronger relationship with other 3rd world country, but they are far from not needing the US or EU yet. As for developing countries, their investment will yet again be in the form of loans, and the last thing they want is to build a market to compete with their own domestic manufacturing. They end up falling into the trap Japan fell into, and if you know about economics, what happened to Japan in the 80's and 90's? A far worse recession than we're going through. Further, they become bag holders to that debt too. Nations, unlike individuals, have very limited means of collecting debts. Once that cycle begins, that debt becomes a bottomless hole of more debt. How much did the rest of the EU have to donate to Greece so far?
As for your contention that people do not leave L2 because of adena, of course they do. I know people who have, just because you don't doesn't change a thing.
Of course, disliking the grind is part of it too, and lo... we got the Vit system and the Blessing system. Now, how about catching up to the OTHER reason people leave?
]I understand economics fine. It was my University minor.
You give the Black Marketeer 4 adena per AA (Black Hole!), run to Blacksmith Mammon, and get your S gems.
You finally get it? Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Sry, had to do some quoting to keep this lvl of fail from disappearing. Don't comprehend simple economics, yet studied it.
Can't tell the blacksmith of mammon from the merchant of mammon, yet claims to know alot about the game, and it's economy.
Then asks if we get it...
And where are you? Greece? Your economy is doing just great there, maybe some economics education is called for in some non-US countries. For all the complaints about the US, our economy is still the world driver...the world currency is still the US dollar, not the Euro or the Yen or the RMB, and the US sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold. We must be somewhat good at juggling economics huh:)? And maybe the reason why is because the economists in your nation thinks like you do, which is the opposite of what actually occurs. The nations that overtake the US economically can dictate the worldwide money policies... and no one's even close. Maybe we know something?
If you do Zaken/Tezza/Frint/SOD/SOA regularly, they will give you S gems, Spirit Ores, and Over Enchanting $$? Really?
Taking a jab at someone from Greece for their countries economy? Really?
Go ahead and tell me how Sweden is doing I guess. Just keep in mind that much like the person you just tried to flame, I don't have anything to do with my countries economics, or even politics. Heck, I didnt even vote in the swedish election.
As far as I know the bosses/locations you listed dont drop the consumables you mentioned, but they probably drop something else that ppl needs.
Let's not start having adena rains.
Edit: Sercatum appears to be from Germany. From what I can remember, after having lost WW2 their economy was in shambles, Swedes could get 1 million D-Mark for 1 Swedish krona or something silly like that. When I was about 15 and we went on holiday to Germany, we payed roughly 4 Swedish krona per 1 D-Mark. Going from 1:1 000 000 to 1:0.25 actually means that country knew what they were doing with their economics. I think they are part of Euro currency now though.
I don't get your math. The only monsters near Dion are like Cruma, or 30's level, and none of them drop 100,000,000 adena.
People pay what they consider reasonable value, and that's not reasonable value. I'm not saving every dime for 3 weeks, fighting without shots or soul ores (forget noble) for 1 piece of Vorpal, and no one I know would either, they'd try to get it from their clan/oly/RMT... JUST AS THEY DO NOW.
WHY wouldn't the prices go up?
Prices are not based on supply, they are based on DEMAND. You can charge anything that SOMEONE WILL PAY. When asking price exceeds what buyers will pay, it WILL NOT GET SOLD. That's when the price comes down.
Would you pay more than 100-200 adena for a piece of vorpal? I wouldn't. Most people I know wouldn't either.
Point: There is NO correlation with the amount of adena float and the price of goods. There IS a correlation between demand and price of goods. If the demand does not exist for an item at a given price, the price comes down.
People making more may be willing to pay more, but if the average income is 1 mil adena per hour, even at 4.5x that, 4.5 mil per hour, HOW MANY HOURS would it take to get a set of vorpal? More than worth spending 2x the money for, that's for sure.
Judging from this post you could just wait until most ppl have vorpal, and then prices will drop enough that you can afford it too. Your keen grasp of economics should help you last in this game until then.
No need for this adena rain.
As for not grasping her example, that is just you, I grasped it while glancing at it.
Sry, had to do some quoting to keep this lvl of fail from disappearing. Don't comprehend simple economics, yet studied it.
Can't tell the blacksmith of mammon from the merchant of mammon, yet claims to know alot about the game, and it's economy.
Then asks if we get it...
Taking a jab at someone from Greece for their countries economy? Really?
Go ahead and tell me how Sweden is doing I guess. Just keep in mind that much like the person you just tried to flame, I don't have anything to do with my countries economics, or even politics. Heck, I didnt even vote in the swedish election.
As far as I know the bosses/locations you listed dont drop the consumables you mentioned, but they probably drop something else that ppl needs.
Let's not start having adena rains.
LOL! You are funny:). Sweden is one of the few countries that I know is doing relatively well. There are many reasons for that, but even Sweden is now privatizing nationalized companies.
I am not jabbing at Greece, anyone from Greece knows what their situation is economically, just as anyone in the US knows what our situation economically is. The US is a mess, regardless of all the signs of growth and corporate earnings we publish. Most of our corporate earnings are coming from overseas. Greece is in a far worse situation than we are, their entire economy has collapsed, and they've been bailed out by the rest of the EU, with no end in sight yet. I hope they turn it around, Greece is the home to the world's most prominent dry bulk shipping companies.
Is your argument seriously reduced to picking at terminology:)?
LOL! You are funny:). Sweden is one of the few countries that I know is doing relatively well. There are many reasons for that, but even Sweden is now privatizing nationalized companies.
I am not jabbing at Greece, anyone from Greece knows what their situation is economically, just as anyone in the US knows what our situation economically is. The US is a mess, regardless of all the signs of growth and corporate earnings we publish. Most of our corporate earnings are coming from overseas. Greece is in a far worse situation than we are, their entire economy has collapsed, and they've been bailed out by the rest of the EU, with no end in sight yet. I hope they turn it around, Greece is the home to the world's most prominent dry bulk shipping companies.
Is your argument seriously reduced to picking at terminology:)?
Nope. But when ppl seem to have trouble grasping terminology, one might want to shine a light on it?
Let's not focus on countries economics, this is a discussion on L2 economy, which to me and a few others seem to be doing fine, but to you and some others, is quickly hurling us towards server shutdowns.
Judging from this post you could just wait until most ppl have vorpal, and then prices will drop enough that you can afford it too. Your keen grasp of economics should help you last in this game until then.
No need for this adena rain.
As for not grasping her example, that is just you, I grasped it while glancing at it.
Actually, I put my money where my mouth is, I cancelled L2 today. I have a 4 month subscription that's paid for, but I'm already bored, and it has nothing to do with gear. As I said earlier, if I wanted to sit in Giran, I have enough assets to fund GOD gear, let alone vorpal. Unlike you, Smittie, I WORKED for the less than a year I have been back in game:).
I hope they change the drop rate for the game's sake. Maybe in another 4 years, I might like to drop in again, and if the game's shut down, I won't be able to, it will be gone. That's why I want them to change it, even if I am leaving.
As for grasping the example, I can see why you'd have no trouble with it:).
Actually, I put my money where my mouth is, I cancelled L2 today. I have a 4 month subscription that's paid for, but I'm already bored, and it has nothing to do with gear. As I said earlier, if I wanted to sit in Giran, I have enough assets to fund GOD gear, let alone vorpal. Unlike you, Smittie, I WORKED for the less than a year I have been back in game:).
I hope they change the drop rate for the game's sake. Maybe in another 4 years, I might like to drop in again, and if the game's shut down, I won't be able to, it will be gone. That's why I want them to change it, even if I am leaving.
As for grasping the example, I can see why you'd have no trouble with it:).
Ya ppl usually call me bright.
And what makes you think I havent worked for the stuff I have? If you were to ask my clan leader what kind of person I am, you would know that I am more likely to help others get stuff done (seeding, spoiling, gathering key mats) than asking for anything for any of my toons.
The only reason I have any boss jewelry is because ppl in clan said I "should be able to make enough money to buy them". I never needed any, but it sure wasnt hard to make the adena to buy them.
I play this game as a form of relaxation though. I don't get all worked up and panic if I dont have the latest top gear, or the most adena on the server, or if someone just pked me, etc, etc.
Sad to see you are leaving game. Please take the time to fill out this little poll I came up with:
--------------------------------
Are you quitting game because of:
1. Change in real life situation, making you not have time to play?
2. Change in real life situation, making you not afford to play?
3. Bored of the game?
4. All your friends alreay quit, and you don't wanna make new ones?
5. Adena drops were unsatisfactory?
And what makes you think I havent worked for the stuff I have? If you were to ask my clan leader what kind of person I am, you would know that I am more likely to help others get stuff done (seeding, spoiling, gathering key mats) than asking for anything for any of my toons.
The only reason I have any boss jewelry is because ppl in clan said I "should be able to make enough money to buy them". I never needed any, but it sure wasnt hard to make the adena to buy them.
I play this game as a form of relaxation though. I don't get all worked up and panic if I dont have the latest top gear, or the most adena on the server, or if someone just pked me, etc, etc.
Sad to see you are leaving game. Please take the time to fill out this little poll I came up with:
--------------------------------
Are you quitting game because of:
1. Change in real life situation, making you not have time to play?
2. Change in real life situation, making you not afford to play?
3. Bored of the game?
4. All your friends alreay quit, and you don't wanna make new ones?
5. Adena drops were unsatisfactory?
LMAO - #5 of course:).
To expand, if they are unwilling to change the game imbalances, the game's dead anyway. Investing more time into a dead game becomes an exercise in cutting losses. So I cut my losses before I lose more time.
And... take a look at GW2.... that's L2 with all the stuff I want:). It doesn't come out til the end of the year, but it's promising to be the blockbuster mmo release of the year by all accounts. Plus it's got no adena issues. If I want all the armor sets, I just buy em, I don't have to waste my valuable time parked in a zone wasting that limited game time to sell anything, I send em my credit card, pay a measley $6.99 and get a new armor set. This is covered by the fact that it's free to play... O.o.
There is no imbalance with adena in game. Thanks for trying to lobby. Too bad you got shut down. Maybe next time you will have actual arguments, and not dodge ppl trying to discuss with you.
Smitte, I like you - you seem like a smart guy. But on this you're wrong for 99% of those palying L2, trying L2 as a new player or old players coming back.
This is not the case for the L2 Elitists - who make this a part time job, a major focus of thier life, and ty their self-worth to it. If you're a "loser irl", and want to compensate for that for spending all your time in L2. Yeah - for you few elites - or those sitting at home during most of your freetime playing a video game - ofc it's not a problem.
You're banking on the fact the educated, half-intelligent players, who have more priorities in their life than spending 20+ hours per week won't respond.
For the rest of you players reading, who haven't succumbed to falling into the L2 trap of spending most of your free time in a video game, it is a problem.
You elitists - keep sticking your head in the ground while the game dies around you. Not everyone, thank goodness for the rest of society, is fooled into thinking it's not a problem. Sometime, I really feel sad for you all. But then again - it's your choice to be ignorant of what's happening around in your own little L2 fanatasy world.
There is no imbalance with adena in game. Thanks for trying to lobby. Too bad you got shut down. Maybe next time you will have actual arguments, and not dodge ppl trying to discuss with you.
Have fun in GW2, I guess.
Who shut me down? I put up a 1 week poll, and as far as I can see, the people who WANT adena to change outnumber those with your position. On a Presidential poll, that's almost a landslide for my position.
Looks like you're the one shut down Smittie... or can't you read polls either:)?
Who shut me down? I put up a 1 week poll, and as far as I can see, the people who WANT adena to change outnumber those with your position. On a Presidential poll, that's almost a landslide for my position.
Looks like you're the one shut down Smittie... or can't you read polls either:)?
I dont know what country you are typing from, but 47 ain't no landslide in here. LOL
The reason why such things are never voted by a general population IRL.
To be honest, I am surprised that less than 2/3 of the players that voted are wishful thinkers.
There's nothing wishful about equality Krissa. I'm surprised that those who have the most wish to be so unfair to those who have not, because a more robust population in L2 benefits all.
Increasing drops across the board will not allow new people to 'catch' older players anyway... because the older players with more assets will also make more.
It will not increase prices substantially... because more items than ever are being sold in stores, and you can't raise prices higher than it would cost to do it yourself.
What it will do is rebalance the money sinks better. It will enable newer players to build up more savings. And should a little inflation set in on the highest levels, you got the extra adena to compensate. For you, there is little to no difference, but it's a world of different to new players. They were not here for the 1x xp to 1x adena drop, those who got here after the Vit system got screwed while you didn't, this would address the disparity.
That said, this has been a fun argument, and while it may not be fully over, I want to thank those on both sides for participating... because it gives NCWest more to consider. I think by now, we've hit all arguments on both sides (many times over! LOL!)?
We mostly managed to keep the snark out, and I learned a bit more about the people I play with, both good and bad.
Will I leave forever? Probably not... L2 is kinda a game 'home' for me. The faces change, the clans change, but curiosity draws me back, just like it does so many of us.
So, lets see what happens in the next few months, I hope NCWest does the right thing.
Do a poll "Do you want a free boss jewel?"
As almost everybody would want one, that proves that boss jewels don't drop enough and there should give a free boss jewel.
Do a poll "Do you want a free boss jewel?"
As almost everybody would want one, that proves that boss jewels don't drop enough and there should give a free boss jewel.
If boss jewels were free, and everyone had one, it would be no different than being naked. ANYTHING that is given to everyone affects no one... except lower levels.
Forget the boss jewels in game. Lets say there's a new boss jewel created called the Antharas Ankle Bracelet that +1 all stats. If EVERYONE had an Antharas Ankle Bracelet, it would be complete parity. No change, except for every player mob killing becomes a bit easier.
BUT... if a level 40 gets an Antharas ankle bracelet, they're going to mow down mobs easier than before... but ALL 40s get it.... it becomes the new norm.
So the poll would be meaningless... EXCEPT for lower levels... just as this one is meaningless for the higher levels. Thank you for the analogy, it is helpful to supporting my position:).
Do a poll "Do you want a free boss jewel?"
As almost everybody would want one, that proves that boss jewels don't drop enough and there should give a free boss jewel.
And ppl dont think what happens after. Nobody will buy boss jewels so their value will be dirt cheap and everyone who reaches that grade will have it as such giving no advantage to anyone, i.e. becoming worthless.
Same with adena, we want more money, but if you print money soon they will be worthless.
I do agree that there is too much drain atm of adena from economy but there will be an equilibrium soon. Yesterday someone was asking for a grade parts to craft... Well, probably not many will craft at the current prices, but if the adena will continue to drop, 20 kk for an A grade weapon will look like not worth it, better struggle to find the mats and recipes if it is 50% the cost in npc store, with 60% craft chance and a change to get rare, you better craft, no ?
Economy in l2 is a good simulation, this is one of the hidden beauties of the game. Shame it will die out with falling online, it is the only thing that will be lost for legits which will benefit from bot dropout in general, but in particular, this will make the economy lose because it is only efficient with many actors. Too few ppl and nobody will need what you sell, at least not in a reasonable amount of time.
M
Do a poll "Do you want a free boss jewel?"
As almost everybody would want one, that proves that boss jewels don't drop enough and there should give a free boss jewel.
Im on it!!
Who shut me down? I put up a 1 week poll, and as far as I can see, the people who WANT adena to change outnumber those with your position. On a Presidential poll, that's almost a landslide for my position.
Looks like you're the one shut down Smittie... or can't you read polls either:)?
I'd say this poll didnt get alot of attention at all, given how many views it has had perhaps it should have had more ppl voting? Guess most ppl dont care enough for your adena rains to actually vote.
And from what I can see, you are still dodging JohnDoe's arguments. Guess his questions were too hard to answer, and dont give me some bs that you dont have time to answer anyone, you are like a hawk on these threads. As soon as someone posts you are there to add something more. So please, quote some JohnDoe and get to work. I dare you :D
I'd say this poll didnt get alot of attention at all, given how many views it has had perhaps it should have had more ppl voting? Guess most ppl dont care enough for your adena rains to actually vote.
And from what I can see, you are still dodging JohnDoe's arguments. Guess his questions were too hard to answer, and dont give me some bs that you dont have time to answer anyone, you are like a hawk on these threads. As soon as someone posts you are there to add something more. So please, quote some JohnDoe and get to work. I dare you :D
What question specifically did I 'dodge', Smittie?
I would rather see an increase in gear drops around the mid level range and fixed Teleportation prices.
Low - Medium (Common?) A,B,C grade gear drops would really make for a much better new player experience and also provide a minor boost to the economy for players about to reach the upper levels.
What question specifically did I 'dodge', Smittie?
Probably you don't know Laby .. Moving on ..
An S84 set is not priced in adena. Move on, unstuck. Adena is a means to compensate the seller for his efforts. The less value adena has (by increased drop) the more the seller will ask.
You know what it takes to make a full S84 set ? Probably no. So I will enlighten you. To do Freya / Tezza
1) You need a Command Channel with 27 players 84+
2) You need that 27 players online the same time the same day
3) You need them online for 2 hours
4) You need some luck
5) You need to do above 2 times a week for some months
From an 84+ toons perspective .. Counting delays, disconnects, occasional PvP's before entering Freya / Tezza, bad luck with drop etc etc .. An S84 armor piece would need about 2 hours of time online. Oh wait .. 2 Hours online of 27 players not one
If that 27 ppl do both Freya / Tezza 2 times a week (at least 4 hours / week / person) and they get 3 armor pieces on average, in order for all to get their set (27x5=135 armor pieces) they should keep doing it for (135/3=45) 45 weeks. Even with very good luck, even if not all get a full set, even if you enter all times and no PvP cancels Raid, even if no full instance prohibits you, it would take them more than 6 months to get their sets. So, to sum up
You need 27 ppl, gathering all together, dedicating 4 hours a week for at least 6 months to make their S84 armors.
Or if you try to see it individually, you need 27 ppl 84+, spending more than (27x10hours) 270 hours to get a full set.
You seem to think that the 270 man hours needed from 84+ toon are irrelevant and that increased adena drops won't affect that 270 hours.
I am trying to tell you that the cost of set is not "fixed" at 700 mil adena but "fixed" to the 270 man hours of an 84+ toon.
Simple math will show you that the 84+ toon charges for 2.5 mil / hour on average for the full set and even lower in case of single drop. On a worse case scenario it may take 50+ hours to produce nothing or some Vorpal Gloves. In that case selling the item for 80M makes the cost to 1.6M / hour.
Soloing my mage at DV (no special gear / preparation / consumables / organization / prerequisites) I get a proffit of more that 2m/hour average. When Wind stones were more expensive and with a bit of luck involved I was able to solo for 10M/hour.
Why the heck should a drop needed so much organization / preparation / people / devotion should automatically cost for less than a solo toon can make ? The only reason items are priced like that is because ppl have figured out that it may take them 6 months to get the full set and some of them prefer to sell their share immediately in order to buy back in a later stage of game but still earlier than waiting to get from CC.
FOCUS. Full Vorpal Armor sets are priced at 2.5M an hour, single pieces like gloves / boots are priced at 1.5M an hour.
The price is related to how much a level 84+ toon can make in an hour. If I can make 10M/hour solo at DV and 2M/hour dropping Vorpal
either
a) Vorpal Price is readjusted to 10M/hour
or
b) Noone goes to drop Vorpal
Since all need Vorpal b) is not an option the price is readjusted.
It can't be that after 19 pages you fail to observe that simple fact / logic. You just ignore it and keep insisting that if all random / non factors (including me) have twice the adena, high level consts in CC that do raids are comprised by a bunch of R3T4RDS that will fail to observe that fact, keep same prices and effectively charge the half.
I am saying that this is not an option.
They will either charge double, or after they make their own sets they will stop doing the raids. They stop doing the raid so no more vorpal items in market, then vorpal prices skyrocket, then again 27 ppl go raiding Freya / Tezza.
Try to visualize ..
1 person builds a wall in 1 hour and gets payed X $
25 persons build a house in 1 hour and get payed Y $
There won't be 25 persons building the house unless Y >> 25 X
That applies universally regardless of how many $ FED prints
There you go. It was in the other thread on the same subject. You decided to make 2 threads for this, not me. Please try to keep track of the threads you create.
Smittie, after reading John Doe's post all I thought was, "Jesus man, this is what was said forever".
If you have the time to play, you will succeed in L2. This has been the fact for 7 years. However, most human beings in North America rejected the L2 model for a variety of reasons; botting, rmt and lack of enforcement of EULA being the largest.
It is now 2011, there are 2 servers left and a post describing how to get vorpal comes down to a dude's adena/hour gaming equation. WTH is that? People that are casual, legits, assisting to pay the L2 bills are not playing L2 to engage in Aden's school of mathematics.
It is so plain to see for me: 2011 money sinks are everywhere, people have far less to spend then ever before. But, but , but.....GoD is on the way and will affect the 24/7 toons tremendously. Imagine Vitality affecting drops: what a concept :)
I would rather see an increase in gear drops around the mid level range and fixed Teleportation prices.
Low - Medium (Common?) A,B,C grade gear drops would really make for a much better new player experience and also provide a minor boost to the economy for players about to reach the upper levels.
+1! Agreed. I think that would really help. And Add - simply re-balance the adena drops with level of area that you're huntin in. Wouldn't change much - maybe in Dino Island would change from 3k drop per mob t 12k drops (from B-grade level to S80 level: A, S, S80 - three additional steps). Later on (though sooner than better would be best), adjust for vitality level (this would not be a big increase either - no where near 4.5x - closer to 2x - - but would increase for players only on 1-2 horus per day - - which was the reasoning behind Vitality - - matching the drops with Vitality only makes since. This was a good idea for Vitality by NCSoft - but, like Hels mentioned, they forgot the other part of the equation).
Things weren't actually so bad before High Five with drops, at least in my limited experience and those I play with (have been in two clans since then).
Adding the drops back (think the drops - full drops, and good sellable/usuable drops for crafting), and rebalancing the adena drops by level and/or Vitality (just have NCSoft finish the equation there), would really, significantly i believe [based on what I hear from new players, older - legit - players coming back) help towards accomplishing what NCSoft may have originally intended by using the Vitality System.
Simply put, if you added the Vitality system to help new players level, and help those who don't have lots of time to play game - that's great, and effective for leveling. However, you need to finish the rest of the equation so that you can get the gear (not really adena, but gear) to keep up with the Vitality increase for leveling. Pretty simple, really.
I still have no idea why NCSoft nearly eliminated full-drops with High-Five. Maybe that was a glitch? Perhaps was due to the items for B and A grade in shops now (good idea, btw - keeps new players playing), but getting rid of the full drops was a bad move. Pretty much made the low-S grade, and other consumables we were getting by selling some of our full-drops, a huge sticking point for the average players. That was not a good move.
There you go. It was in the other thread on the same subject. You decided to make 2 threads for this, not me. Please try to keep track of the threads you create.
Smittie, I see no question asked by John Doe. All I see is a giant whine about how hard it is to sell/obtain boss mob S84 gear.
Frankly, most clans that do boss mobs for gear end up moving on once most/no one in clan needs that gear. Tiat is a good example. Not many clans do Tiat anymore... why? No one really needs the drops.
That note was a huge whine/rant about the cost of gear... which isn't a factor for most clans who farm gear for their members, not for profit.
BOTTOM LINE: ONCE EVERYONE HAS THE GEAR, THE TOP CLANS WILL STOP FARMING THOSE BOSSES ANYWAY.
The ONLY reason parts end up on the market for top end gear is because duplicates drop, and that MAY only be true for NOVA on Chronos (although I'd wager it's not true even for them, since they need to gear so many more new recruits than any other clan does lately), because every single other clan on Chronos still needs the gear themselves.
Your analogy is WRONG, John Doe. The SOURCE of sales for Vorpal is from Oly Heros/point redemptions who want to add to THEIR OWN bottom line, not clans giving away their own clan mate needs from raids that 3 groups (Freya) or 4 groups (Frint) participate in. That and people are still finishing up their cloak quests.
Smittie, I see no question asked by John Doe. All I see is a giant whine about how hard it is to sell/obtain boss mob S84 gear.
Frankly, most clans that do boss mobs for gear end up moving on once most/no one in clan needs that gear. Tiat is a good example. Not many clans do Tiat anymore... why? No one really needs the drops.
That note was a huge whine/rant about the cost of gear... which isn't a factor for most clans who farm gear for their members, not for profit.
BOTTOM LINE: ONCE EVERYONE HAS THE GEAR, THE TOP CLANS WILL STOP FARMING THOSE BOSSES ANYWAY.
The ONLY reason parts end up on the market for top end gear is because duplicates drop, and that MAY only be true for NOVA on Chronos (although I'd wager it's not true even for them, since they need to gear so many more new recruits than any other clan does lately), because every single other clan on Chronos still needs the gear themselves.
Your analogy is WRONG, John Doe. The SOURCE of sales for Vorpal is from Oly Heros/point redemptions who want to add to THEIR OWN bottom line, not clans giving away their own clan mate needs from raids that 3 groups (Freya) or 4 groups (Frint) participate in. That and people are still finishing up their cloak quests.
1.So your clan dont farm or cant farm the bosses for vorpal.
2. You want vorpal.
3. You think increasing adena drops will make you able to buy it.
Stop being so selfish and trying to crash the market with your adena rains, it's doing fine as is.
Things have never been so cheap for newbies as it is now. This is the golden age for newbies. Dont mess it up.
Please.
And since you did nothing to refute JohnDoe's arguments, one can only assume you have no counter arguments. Tough luck huh.
Maybe you shouldnt have left them. You could have been someone today.
Instead of being bitter and wanting adena rains.
I never asked for balancing the server to Prelude drop rates for myself Smittie. I actually ask it for the scrubs who clearly know not what is killing L2.
I never asked for balancing the server to Prelude drop rates for myself Smittie. I actually ask it for the scrubs who clearly know not what is killing L2.
They dont need it. Which is what we have been trying to tell you for a very long time.
I never asked for balancing the server to Prelude drop rates for myself Smittie. I actually ask it for the scrubs who clearly know not what is killing L2.
So you are making yourself down to the ground pathetic with this endless bickering for the scrubs?
Hard to believe. Better quit now and save some face.
Tiat is a good example. Not many clans do Tiat anymore... why? No one really needs the drops.
And because no one really bothers with a bugged RB ?
That note was a huge whine/rant about the cost of gear... which isn't a factor for most clans who farm gear for their members, not for profit.
You asked about Vorpal costs. It was a detailed explanation why Vorpal costs that much.
Simple answer: It costs that much because it would not worth to do it for less.
BOTTOM LINE: ONCE EVERYONE HAS THE GEAR, THE TOP CLANS WILL STOP FARMING THOSE BOSSES ANYWAY.
Indeed, and adena "printed" are still irrelevant
Your analogy is WRONG, John Doe. The SOURCE of sales for Vorpal is from Oly Heros/point redemptions who want to add to THEIR OWN bottom line, not clans giving away their own clan mate needs from raids that 3 groups (Freya) or 4 groups (Frint) participate in. That and people are still finishing up their cloak quests.
/sarcasm on
.. and increasing adena drops will make them sell for lower ..
/sarcasm off
I have been observing full instance zones during peak times so lots of CC enter RB. And main source of Vorpal is not Heros, is CC doing bosses. If the main source was Oly then the price of items would remain the same for looooong time .. As it has always been with everything that could only / mainly be obtained by Heroe's from Oly .. The first example that fits perfectly the analogy would be BEWS some years ago. Only Heroe's had enough points to get them, were considered an endgame item and not many ways to obtain.
Anyways, as said and on the other relevant thread, please .. Try to form an exact point. We are going from NPC costs to top armors, from adena drops to speculations about items.
What you ask is ? More adena drops for all ? More adena drop for lowbies ? How many more adena drop ? You also want item drops ? What item drops ? For what level toons ? How many more item drops ? Try to form a specific argument so we can really make a constructive discussion.
Just increasing the adena drops for all will make the poor poorer and the rich richer. That's a fact. All will re balance accordingly in a short period of time unless NPC costs which are irrelevant because they matter for the 5% of your time in game. You may earn something more till 6x but from then on you will be hardly hit because nothing at NPC is of real value. So, you may made 10m more from 1->65 but other ppl made 200m more from 82->83. And at 7x you will need to buy from them, not from NPC. And the 10m more you made won't compensate.
Form something specific, not a general "increase adena drops". That does not work on it's own. There is a thing called inflation that first hits all the ones you think your proposal will help, the poor.
MMO economies resemble real economies. In all real economies when money is created out of thin air there is inflation and devaluation of the currency. When that happens on a global scale where all "print" more money, commodities / oil become more expensive. And that starts an inflation spiral. The more money printed so ppl can buy oil, the more oil raises its price.
MMO economies resemble real economies. In all real economies when money is created out of thin air there is inflation and devaluation of the currency. When that happens on a global scale where all "print" more money, commodities / oil become more expensive. And that starts an inflation spiral. The more money printed so ppl can buy oil, the more oil raises its price.
changing a rate drop is not the same as printing more money. rate drops are changed all the time in game, kinda think ncsoft has it set based on #of players online in hunting area killing mobs....more online=more drops...because the drops are based off of a % of mobs killed...not just the mobs u killed but in entire hunting zone...so prime time is when to play to get richer quicker....this is totally unfair to those players who dont play during peak hours.
Form something specific, not a general "increase adena drops". That does not work on it's own. There is a thing called inflation that first hits all the ones you think your proposal will help, the poor.
MMO economies resemble real economies. In all real economies when money is created out of thin air there is inflation and devaluation of the currency. When that happens on a global scale where all "print" more money, commodities / oil become more expensive. And that starts an inflation spiral. The more money printed so ppl can buy oil, the more oil raises its price.
The first post of each note could not be more specific. Learn to read.
MMO economies resemble real economies, go back a few pages where that was addressed TOO (you just miss the boat on EVERYTHING don't you?).
Real economies do not have NPC shops to take real money out of circulation. The closest we come to that are taxes, and those are paid out in the form of government salaries and contracts to private businesses.
In a MMO, all adena sinks, including OE skills, Spirit Ores, Eisenhad waters, even Mastery Codex, vanish into ether. It is not recirculated and that is why it differs from a real economy.
The ONLY source of money in this economy is monster drops... which became imbalanced with the introduction of Vitality and Blessings, which never compensated for the loss of drops while the XP ratio increased.
Inflation is IRRELEVANT in this model, because DEMAND is the only thing that drives prices, and at lower levels, NO ONE can sell ANYTHING priced higher than the NPC shop standard for gear from D-A. Those prices are already fixed no matter what happens with drops or player pricing.
I'm not going to explain this again, because it's got to be the 5th time I've explained this same thing. If you want to participate in a discussion, you should read the notes first.
Well, apparently NCWest DOES care... because the poll was reopened, even tho I only set it for 7 days. Thank you.
You don't know NCsoft. They will announce that in GoD the vitality will affect drops and that's all. Do you really expect to have it before GoD?
Just to make it clear : linking drops and vitality requires coding, which NCsoft West isn't authorized to do. A patch is coming with exactly what you ask. What will they do? Try to code it themselves or wait for the patch?
Ex cheaters made 85 lvls/3 subs,all epics,all their skills +30,made top armors +6 rare sets,made ++++++++++weapons,could give 1b to buy a hat they want because they had tonz of billions and they were making money everyday, long ago any legit player could even dream of getting anything from the above.With those they ruled in servers and are pretty much able to succed in anything/keep hero for as long as they play/make real money by selling items/ ect ect and continue ruling in game since the ''non cheaters'' can NEVER EVER make same money and reach them in terms of gear.They played when rmt was live and had dozens of customers to buy their items in no matter price and we are selling our items in npcs!
Now,we play the last days of L2 before GOD.To continue in God,we need to be 85+subs and elegia or vorpal +6 full elemented/all epics and save tonz of stones and +150 crys because in GOD new raids and difficult mobs and many classes will need to use different armor/weapons/elements for their skills.Ex-cheaters are getting prepaired,they buy elegia and s84 epics from auction,they buy cheaper and cheaper attribute stones and crys from the desperate players.
Is there anyone that believes we can make those with current adena / items drop rate /market ever???????????????????????????????????
Or,do all players want to play L2 as town sellers and pve players and leave the top part of game to ex-cheaters for ever?
When i started on Devianne,i knew i couldnt lvl and get geared as fast as the ones that botted but with the alive market due to RMT,it didnt took me ages to do it.And as years went by,i saw that getting my toon as top as of a cheater wouldnt been impossible if i played really many hours everyday and tried really hard-that ofc was ment i had L2 as a second job and not as a game,but at least it was possible-,since RMT is out it isnt.
Nscoft doesnt want RMT to work?Then they should allready replaced the huge whole it left in market with other things.
Great Point! The hole gets larger, and larger every day. And getting rid of almost all full-drops with Hi-5 greatly exacerbated the problem.
Dunno what is wrong with you, but I'm gettng more full drops in H5 than ever (not counting those nograde drops from Spore Fungus :rolleyes:).
Dunno what is wrong with you, but I'm gettng more full drops in H5 than ever (not counting those nograde drops from Spore Fungus :rolleyes:).
All I know that, after hunting in Dino Island for several months prior to Hi-5, I got full S-grade drops often. At 20hrs or less a week, was getting at least 1 full drop per week almost - usually something like Demon Splinter, etc. Which I could sell to make money, to buy shots, pots, elemental stones, etc.
I also got full drops in Blazing Swamp with my 77 Necro, and also drops in IP with my StS.
Since Hi-5 I have not got one full drop - not one. And I've been playing the same amount, if not more. Especially since the Anniversary event, where I'm working on my SE a lot more (using my other 5x SH, 6x WC, etc.). Nothing for full drops.
I know that before Hi-5, I was getting at least some full-drops worth some value - that with along with a few sell shops - I could make some funds. This to help, and put some items/adena in Clan WH to help others.
Based on my experience, and what I've heard form others in two clans, they are experiencing the same thing. Most of us your upper 70s (low-S-grade), a low 80s (80-83).
Ridiculous poll ends today with less than 1% of our two servers voting. Hels made preposterous accusations about clans rallying their members to sway the vote. Grandstanding by the OP this is all for the new players, right.
Here is a good question: How many new subscribers do we have in the 1 – 76 levels and how many previous subscribers do we have in that range?
I am going to bet the number is somewhere in the range of less than 1% of the total population. Therefore, Hels' argument is irrelevant.
Ridiculous poll ends today with less than 1% of our two servers voting. Hels made preposterous accusations about clans rallying their members to sway the vote. Grandstanding by the OP this is all for the new players, right.
Here is a good question: How many new subscribers do we have in the 1 – 76 levels and how many previous subscribers do we have in that range?
I am going to bet the number is somewhere in the range of less than 1% of the total population. Therefore, Hels' argument is irrelevant.
Well, you make a good point in that it's probably not near as high a percentage as we would like or expect. Also, the vast majority of the new/retrurning players won't reply here - although some have (I'm just judging by their Join Date), and in almost all cases they supported increased drop rates - and perhaps more importantly [I think, as well as others], this includes full drops of value [not just adena - tho most have basically echoed that there should be some balancing with higher level areas dropping greater amounts of adena].
I would say that there are probably quite a few new players joining with the Anniversary event, and probably "old players" making a new account (like myself) - that are experiencing this.
I know that in our clan (and the clan I was originally in at the beginning of Hi-5), players that are new or under level 80, are experiencing the difficulties talked here. Although I'm not in a top clan (level 11, we only have a few players at 80 and above, with one player at level 84) - most of our players agree with the basic premise of the post. They do not want top equipment, but want to get consumables and decent equipment to make the game more enjoyable and contribute more to the clan and parties that they're in.
I know that this doesn't represent players playing a lot more than 20 hours a week and/or are high level, but this is what we're seeing from these levels in a mid-level clan.
Is increasing the adena drop rate to 4.5x all the time everywhere the best answer. I think most would agree, probably not. But, the basis behind this - increasing adena drops commensurate with Vitality level, and rebalancing with hunting levels, does makes sense and does seem to be supported, at least at some significant level, in these posts from casual/average players.
We know that some of that rebalancing wiill occur with GoD - but who knows how long that will take to get to NCWest, and how healthy the game will be by then? It may be down to one server, or close to it - if it takes a long time and things stay as they are. Again - we know it's not a problem for the "have's" (especially if you have a lot from previously), but for the rest of the players it is -and especially new players [I think we can all agree without new players, and numbers dropping, L2 days are limited - - Drac, you pointed out correctly that there probably aren't very many new players....if potential new players, talk to new players who have recently experienced these issue for a game that they're paying and spending time to enjoy - do you think that potential new L2 players are even going to try L2? - - proably not, and if so - and they experience all this - they're not going to want to stay long].
I'd like to see the game continue - I don't see anyone posting yet who really wants to see the game fail. New players, and those coming back do get frustrated with how things are (and sometimes compared to what used to be and what they are now). It's very hard to make money/gear to enjoy the game unless you spend innordinate amounts of time to do it - drops are minimal, adena drops are minimal, crafting is almost a waste of time........all of that is not encouraging for new players and/or lower level players coming back. They figure this out fairly early, and vote with their feet/subscriptions by leaving.
Just my 2 cents from my point of view and others that I play L2 with, and see here.
Ex cheaters made 85 lvls/3 subs,all epics,all their skills +30,made top armors +6 rare sets,made ++++++++++weapons,could give 1b to buy a hat they want because they had tonz of billions and they were making money everyday, long ago any legit player could even dream of getting anything from the above.With those they ruled in servers and are pretty much able to succed in anything/keep hero for as long as they play/make real money by selling items/ ect ect and continue ruling in game since the ''non cheaters'' can NEVER EVER make same money and reach them in terms of gear.They played when rmt was live and had dozens of customers to buy their items in no matter price and we are selling our items in npcs!
Now,we play the last days of L2 before GOD.To continue in God,we need to be 85+subs and elegia or vorpal +6 full elemented/all epics and save tonz of stones and +150 crys because in GOD new raids and difficult mobs and many classes will need to use different armor/weapons/elements for their skills.Ex-cheaters are getting prepaired,they buy elegia and s84 epics from auction,they buy cheaper and cheaper attribute stones and crys from the desperate players.
Is there anyone that believes we can make those with current adena / items drop rate /market ever???????????????????????????????????
Or,do all players want to play L2 as town sellers and pve players and leave the top part of game to ex-cheaters for ever?
When i started on Devianne,i knew i couldnt lvl and get geared as fast as the ones that botted but with the alive market due to RMT,it didnt took me ages to do it.And as years went by,i saw that getting my toon as top as of a cheater wouldnt been impossible if i played really many hours everyday and tried really hard-that ofc was ment i had L2 as a second job and not as a game,but at least it was possible-,since RMT is out it isnt.
Nscoft doesnt want RMT to work?Then they should allready replaced the huge whole it left in market with other things.
It's interresting but I don't totally agree. The RMT+cheaters market with a lot of adenas flowing didn't help me before the apparition of cubics. Before cubic pieces, I was farming my stuff to craft some parts, farming adenas to buy some others. Then when I received free cEWS and sold them (around 80m each), that gave me a lot of adenas to spend. But as prices were higher than now and I didn't keep it all, it wasn't necessarily easier. Of course NPC prices were suddenly ridiculous, but I don't think it's right. I kept almost enough for a morai robe set (at the current prices). Now I'm back to the same situation than when I was grinding for my stuff (D, C, B, A...) except I have at my disposal the help of a good party and a good clan. That means I have access to parts of the game giving me what I need.
I don't expect to be in vorpal at 84 but why should I? I'm sure an elemented morai set till R will do fine.
However, I agree that the removal of most of the RMT bots shows the difficulties of L2. I've always been saying bots hide the problems. So I won't say there's no problem. Yes, it's more visible now and devs should see it too. Now I don't think the problem is adenas drops, as already explained in 2 threads.
I'd like to see the game continue - I don't see anyone posting yet who really wants to see the game fail. New players, and those coming back do get frustrated with how things are (and sometimes compared to what used to be and what they are now). It's very hard to make money/gear to enjoy the game unless you spend innordinate amounts of time to do it - drops are minimal, adena drops are minimal, crafting is almost a waste of time........all of that is not encouraging for new players and/or lower level players coming back. They figure this out fairly early, and vote with their feet/subscriptions by leaving.
Just my 2 cents from my point of view and others that I play L2 with, and see here.