So this argument w/ my fellow dagger users in the clan is spilling onto the forums. Here's my argument: if your using a single dagger, during olympiad, pvp, etc, why not carry a highly enchanted shield?
reasons:
-8 evasion does diddly squat since nobody uses white damage, and it does not impact skill evasion
most daggers use knights in pvp and knights give extra shield defence success rate
LE / Dwarf / Human daggers have quite high CON and this should also help increase shield defence rates
a perfect shield defence will cause your damage to be 1, hence awesome.
What are the arguments against carrying a shield? i dont think there is any nowadays....
2. 8 evasion is a big deal if you play your class right.
Dual daggers are better?
Superior Dual Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when using a dual dagger.
Superior Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when a dagger is equipped. Increases Atk. Spd. + 25% and vital spot attack success rate + 5%. Additionally, there is a chance the Cooldown of skills will reset or the duration double depending on your STR.
Enchant a dual dagger to +4 to take useless crit rate and 500 crit dmg, enchant a single dagger to +4 to take 874 crit dmg(arround it, don't remember exaclty number).
So u will tell me "and dmg up in dagger?" well, dunno about u but make counts: some p.atk more (that u take enchanting a single dagger to +4) but for sure, I prefer my str be usefull to reset my skills making tons of clones (example), I prefer have better chances for half-kills, cp ciphons, 2 mins hide, and I prefer that atk speed and good critical dmg per hit if I'm alone without soli lvl 2/3, I preffer also that my skills hit more and have better chances for critical skills using dex.
Rumble says he is othell lvl 99 here in forum, cool, I respect him if he really is, I'm othell lvl 96 actually(dual 90, subs 80, 80 and other chars before this one ofc since 2004), I play lineage 2 enough to know that his last advices are so wrong.
In teory our "magic evasion" is what shields needed to be for protect daggers from magic hits but is not that wonderfull now, but anyway, using a shield u will looks like a noob and will lose 8 evasion, once u have no passives for shields, that buff u take with knight is not usefull at all, so keep ur evasion in peace pls.
Ive tested this quite a bit and single vs dual really depends on how much ++ your daggers are. If you have duals +8 vs single +4 then obviously keep your duals. Duals can put up a bit more dps than single when using clones and you can level up your scorpion poison/max critical faster. other than that, you are right vincent and single is the way to go. (if i didnt have my duals so ++++ i would have gone single dagger as well.
Since when does -8 evasion turn into -8 magic evasion? the -8, as far as i understand, is only physical evasion of WHITE damage. It has nothing to do w/ skill evasion. When was the last time somebody was able to hit you with anything white damage? i cant bloody recall... my toon as it stands has 230 evasion (remember the days when having 190 evasion was godly?) so -8 isnt going to do much in turns of nerfing my own physical evasion.
In addition, taking knights give you 50% boost in your shield defense rate. So equipping a shield when fighting a melee class makes a lot of sense. Obviously you have no need of equipping a shield vs mage classes anyways, its very situational. Try it.... all you need is that perfect shield block to change your mind. :D
Ive tested this quite a bit and single vs dual really depends on how much ++ your daggers are. If you have duals +8 vs single +4 then obviously keep your duals. Duals can put up a bit more dps than single when using clones and you can level up your scorpion poison/max critical faster. other than that, you are right vincent and single is the way to go. (if i didnt have my duals so ++++ i would have gone single dagger as well.
Since when does -8 evasion turn into -8 magic evasion? the -8, as far as i understand, is only physical evasion of WHITE damage. It has nothing to do w/ skill evasion. When was the last time somebody was able to hit you with anything white damage? i cant bloody recall... my toon as it stands has 230 evasion (remember the days when having 190 evasion was godly?) so -8 isnt going to do much in turns of nerfing my own physical evasion.
In addition, taking knights give you 50% boost in your shield defense rate. So equipping a shield when fighting a melee class makes a lot of sense. Obviously you have no need of equipping a shield vs mage classes anyways, its very situational. Try it.... all you need is that perfect shield block to change your mind. :D
try it vince! i got my friend (and most likely the most capable dagger on our server) to switch over to using a shield when he pvps. It looks riiiidiculious, but if it works, it works!
there are official tests that prove dual daggers get both the bonuses from single dagger mastery. now even juji's dps test shows that dual daggers do more damage over time, not including the 2x proc on scorpion and max crit. i've watched all the fail daggers on bartz play and i just went on my friend's ungeared dagger and rolled them.
bartz is already a year behind pace with other servers. don't make it two.
there are official tests that prove dual daggers get both the bonuses from single dagger mastery. now even juji's dps test shows that dual daggers do more damage over time, not including the 2x proc on scorpion and max crit. i've watched all the fail daggers on bartz play and i just went on my friend's ungeared dagger and rolled them.
I'm stupid? u said to people take in sub certificates crit rate, and atk speed in other topic and I'm stupid? If u boost ur duals daggers and wanna a excuse to use it, just use it. U mad?
The "Official" tests, that u asked in dps for juji was based in Physical Punch Machine and there is a waaaaaaaay of difference in pvp. What is better is what give u more advantages(not only fixed dmg), don't means will works better in pvp just coz in teory gives more dmg in a target that don't move, don't atk, don't have any reaction.
Obs: Ah btw, turn drama off pls. "Bartz is 1 year blabla" Do u want an oscar or something?
can someone please give this guy a clue. you could not even provide a legitimate, valid counter argument. bads be bad.
Superior Dual Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when using a dual dagger.
Superior Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when a dagger is equipped. Increases Atk. Spd. + 25% and vital spot attack success rate + 5%. Additionally, there is a chance the Cooldown of skills will reset or the duration double depending on your STR.
That is my "legitmate, valid counter argument". U are basing ur whole pvp setup in a test made by juji (in Physical Punch Machine), u forget about vital spots in pvp, and way more things. And yes:
Look ur first reply. I need add something? U know, says that have u lvl 99 or be lvl 99 don't mean that u play good with ur class for several reasons that I will avoid to comment for u don't keep with ur mad mood ( /care dear, /care)
You can use single dagger (More HalfKill,more CD skill reset/duration double) and get a HK with blood stab on a healer, crit the skill and get 6000~ directly to his HP and delet his CP also, End the work whit any other stab , gf.
Stay spaming chain blow and reverse because they reset like crazy if you are d.elf or if you have good STR.
(This is an example, ofc you can do it with duals too but with less probability)
Or...
Stay on duals focusing autoattack's, lvl'ing max.critical faster than single dagger and doing a lot of damage too on stabs.
Idk why they delete Critical Damage SA from daggers... that made the difference between dual or single on pvp.
You can use single dagger (More HalfKill,more CD skill reset/duration double) and get a HK with blood stab on a healer, crit the skill and get 6000~ directly to his HP and delet his CP also, End the work whit any other stab , gf.
Stay spaming chain blow and reverse because they reset like crazy if you are d.elf or if you have good STR.
(This is an example, ofc you can do it with duals too but with less probability)
Or...
Stay on duals focusing autoattack's, lvl'ing max.critical faster than single dagger and doing a lot of damage too on stabs.
Idk why they delete Critical Damage SA from daggers... that made the difference between dual or single on pvp.
I have here a link to an official test by GMs that shows dual daggers get the same skill mastery proc as single dagger. The only thing that affects the probability is the amount of STR you have. I rather not post it on public boards, but I bet you someone so knowledgeable like Laby knows what I'm talking about.
u said to people take in sub certificates crit rate, and atk speed in other topic and I'm stupid?
Obviously, you can't read. If you're a Twilight dagger trying to level up, the only thing you should be worried about is maxing out critical rate and attack speed. Please defend yourself.
The "Official" tests, that u asked in dps for juji was based in Physical Punch Machine and there is a waaaaaaaay of difference in pvp. What is better is what give u more advantages(not only fixed dmg), don't means will works better in pvp just coz in teory gives more dmg in a target that don't move, don't atk, don't have any reaction.
Explain to me how is single dagger better when an object is active. Let's say the target is moving and the closed distance/battle interval is 1 second. You swing two times faster with dual daggers than single daggers, so it'd make sense to minimize the swing time to pack more swings into that 1 second. Of course, I don't care about this, but you brought up a point that you just completely failed to support.
That is my "legitmate, valid counter argument". U are basing ur whole pvp setup in a test made by juji (in Physical Punch Machine), u forget about vital spots in pvp, and way more things.
Show me evidence that you get all those bonuses from Superior Dagger Mastery on single dagger and not on dual dagger.
U know, says that have u lvl 99 or be lvl 99 don't mean that u play good with ur class for several reasons that I will avoid to comment for u don't keep with ur mad mood ( /care dear, /care)
Take the name calling down a notch guys, it's not needed here. Blue is what you get using either dagger (STR is stacked regardless) and Red is what each dagger gets for their skill.
Superior Dual Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when using a dual dagger.
Superior Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when a dagger is equipped. Increases Atk. Spd. + 25% and vital spot attack success rate + 5%. Additionally, there is a chance the Cooldown of skills will reset or the duration double depending on your STR.
Take the name calling down a notch guys, it's not needed here. Blue is what you get using either dagger (STR is stacked regardless) and Red is what each dagger gets for their skill.
Superior Dual Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when using a dual dagger.
Superior Dagger Mastery: STR + 2 and P. Atk. + 344 when a dagger is equipped. Increases Atk. Spd. + 25% and vital spot attack success rate + 5%. Additionally, there is a chance the Cooldown of skills will reset or the duration double depending on your STR.
Wrong. Take a look at this test by official GMs for example: [link removed]. You can see that the skill mastery proc rate (reset cd/double timer) is the same for both single and dual dagger at the same STR.
Wrong. Take a look at this test by official Innova GMs for example: https://forum.4game.com/showthread.php?t=13923. You can see that the skill mastery proc rate (reset cd/double timer) is the same for both single and dual dagger at the same STR.
When I take hero next month, you owe me a cookie! <3
You know when I first posted the reply I originally had said the passives stacked, but changed the post after I did a test on the double timers. I just re-edited the post again after I realized I was only looking at the double timer, instead of cooldown resets. I just tested it again and saw that it works with dual daggers. So yeah, the passives stack with both daggers minus the P. Atk bonus.
The only cookie you'll get is a 2nd place cookie :p
the difference/variance is slight enough that i would not change any particular build to suit single or dual daggers. That being said rumble, why do you trash on bartz ( your home!) if you transfer back to our server we will give you a run for your money. Im sure of it. Do you think your toon is that much better than our 99 daggers? i highly doubt it. Longing? we have that, rulers authority? check. Epic jewels? yup we have all those.
So come back and put up a fight with what i think is possibly the worst dagger class (dwarf) and see just how "behind" we are. :D
p.s. back on topic, nobody has yet to clarify exactly why -8 evasion would make a difference in pvp against other melee classes.
the difference/variance is slight enough that i would not change any particular build to suit single or dual daggers. That being said rumble, why do you trash on bartz ( your home!) if you transfer back to our server we will give you a run for your money. Im sure of it. Do you think your toon is that much better than our 99 daggers? i highly doubt it. Longing? we have that, rulers authority? check. Epic jewels? yup we have all those.
So come back and put up a fight with what i think is possibly the worst dagger class (dwarf) and see just how "behind" we are. :D
p.s. back on topic, nobody has yet to clarify exactly why -8 evasion would make a difference in pvp against other melee classes.
I have no interest in farming a dead server :( There is much more competition on Chronos. The PvP style is much more advanced imo. I'd get bored and quit if I come back to Bartz. Besides, I do little oly on Bartz once in a while :)
Personally I'm in big dilemma too, that do I use and OE my single r99 blessed dual dagger and use it (it has 2 SA).
Or remove the SA and rebuild it Dual Dagger.
I'm Othell Fortune Seeker.
In the next update will some kind of changes about these skills, I found this in the Korea patch notes.
Laby if it isn't big request, please translate this:).
오셀 로그
- 암살자 콘셉트에 맞게 대상을 위협********* 수 있도록 블로우 계열 스킬의 대미지 공식********* 변경되었다. 또한 디버프 스킬들의 성공 확률을 높*********고, '섀도우 플래시', '섀도우 체*********스'와 같********* 접근기 스킬의 성공 확률을 고정 확률로 지정하여 전투 활용도를 높*********는 한편, '섀도우 페*********크 데스' 스킬의 경우 현재 MP 소모 비용********* 너무 낮아 전투를 지루하게 끄는 문제점********* 있어서 소모 비용********* 상승 조정되었다.
a. 모든 블로우 스킬의 대미지 계산 방식에 '받는 크리티컬 대미지 감소' 효과가 미치는 영향********* 감소되었다. 따라서 블로우 스킬의 대미지가 상향되었다.
b. 디버프 스킬들 성공 확률 증가
While isn't so far the new update what from these changes comes may could help to us.
to OE our weps or get +15 Legendary Dyes aren't short times so better if we look a bit with 1 update before (at least i do this).
Personally I'm in big dilemma too, that do I use and OE my single r99 blessed dual dagger and use it (it has 2 SA).
Or remove the SA and rebuild it Dual Dagger.
I'm Othell Fortune Seeker.
In the next update will some kind of changes about these skills, I found this in the Korea patch notes.
Laby if it isn't big request, please translate this:).
While isn't so far the new update what from these changes comes may could help to us.
to OE our weps or get +15 Legendary Dyes aren't short times so better if we look a bit with 1 update before (at least i do this).
If you're planning to +16 and/or eventually PvP it in the future, then it is worth the investment. I mentioned in Juji's lab test that dual daggers are visibly better at higher OE.
The text refers to Chapter 3: Lindvior, in which DEX will affect stabs' damage calculation, debuffs will land more often (right now Power Bluff rarely ever lands), and Shadow Fake Death will have higher MP cost.
Basically that, evasion is a crap since GoD and in a worst case scenario you could take off the shield when you use UE/Angel of death... Specially because you always end up w/ knight harmony so... Yeah it's worth it when you have a single dagger.
But it doesn't change the fact that's ugly...
Ive tested this quite a bit and single vs dual really depends on how much ++ your daggers are. If you have duals +8 vs single +4 then obviously keep your duals. Duals can put up a bit more dps than single when using clones and you can level up your scorpion poison/max critical faster. other than that, you are right vincent and single is the way to go. (if i didnt have my duals so ++++ i would have gone single dagger as well.
Since when does -8 evasion turn into -8 magic evasion? the -8, as far as i understand, is only physical evasion of WHITE damage. It has nothing to do w/ skill evasion. When was the last time somebody was able to hit you with anything white damage? i cant bloody recall... my toon as it stands has 230 evasion (remember the days when having 190 evasion was godly?) so -8 isnt going to do much in turns of nerfing my own physical evasion.
In addition, taking knights give you 50% boost in your shield defense rate. So equipping a shield when fighting a melee class makes a lot of sense. Obviously you have no need of equipping a shield vs mage classes anyways, its very situational. Try it.... all you need is that perfect shield block to change your mind. :D
Why not vs mage?
Masterwork Moirai Shield = +2% mdef
yo waterfallz, why do you promote single dagger but use a dual dagger yourself?
simple! i cant get rid of my duals. I have +8 blessed apoc duals w/ passive pvp and 300 element. Unlike other rich daggers, im perpetually poor and therefore cannot afford to go through thousands of stones looking for another pvp/passive reflect augment.
That being said, ive also tried to sell my +8 duals for 2 billion in the AH and no takers. Kinda sad... juside sold his +10 single apoc daggers for 4.5 billion back in the days and now i cant even get 2 billion for mine.
If i could go single i would.
Yeah i guess you can carry the shield against any and all classes. It wouldnt really matter, but you guys are right when u say its ugly as sin.
nobody even mention dwarf passive skill if you not take dual mastery so you practically get 45% of shield block, collector fortune i mean. Any FS tested this or all just took dual mastery ?
woooo shield block when none of u people have shield block passive.
go figure that out first people!
a shield block on a tank or on a dagger is a world of a diff if i would hit a tank for 1k damage and he shield block it
he would recieve let say 250 damage
if i would do 1k to a dagger and he would shield block it
he would recieve like what?
he gets shield pdef only added to his current pdef
that makes a SUPER Different i agree
so gz gettin 100? damage less i rather have evasion
woooo shield block when none of u people have shield block passive.
go figure that out first people!
a shield block on a tank or on a dagger is a world of a diff if i would hit a tank for 1k damage and he shield block it
he would recieve let say 250 damage
if i would do 1k to a dagger and he would shield block it
he would recieve like what?
he gets shield pdef only added to his current pdef
that makes a SUPER Different i agree
so gz gettin 100? damage less i rather have evasion