In an effort to give all players a voice on the forum, please use this forum in regards to the ongoing discussion with the recent banning and general bot discussion. This is a thread based on the comments found in the below thread:
We want players to have a voice and to have a central place to do so. That being said, any further posts outside of this thread on this topic will be locked and deleted without warning and any posters who open these threads can be subject to disciplinary action up to and including a temporary ban from the forums.
Please keep all posts constructive and keep accusations and flames to yourself. This is an open forum where I hope we can have a great discussion without it devolving into a flame war. If that happens the thread will be locked. Keep it clean folks.
This is a waste of time, because we all already know how and what this thread is going to turn into, and in the end it's not going to accomplish anything, or change anything.
1st. The party were banned at first time only because it was a mass (false) report of botting whitout checking it, and now, after mass petition, GMteam has checked and find that they weren't botting at all.
2nd. The party was unbanned only because it was a mass petition of unbann them instead of be botting or not.
The both are bad conclusions imo.
If it is the first option, plz can you check if the guys is guilty or not, because is no good new if it is true
And for jyr i hope a day einheit and teddybears clan move to phoenix to compare their force against your clan :)
Yes, but these people have an absolute diabolical need to say the same thing over and over. Kudos for making them do it in one thread :D --- one which I can now just avoid, tyvm!
Hello, First and foremost we have reopened all the accounts involved in this incident. You should be aware that if for any reason you are found botting in the future we will not be reopening the account again. The reason you were all banned is due to the GM monitoring your actions and the appearance of being unresponsive when tested. When certain members of your party were kicked it took 2 minutes before anyone reacted. I have looked very closely to the chat of all involved and believe you were all present. This evidence was compelling to me.You guys were not banned because of any mass petitions nor where you unbanned because of them; Mass petitions do very little but delay any kind of reaction, good or negative. I simply felt something was missing from the evidence that was used to ban you and feel that you all deserve a second chance. Second chances are not something that happens for players who are believed to be botting, in fact it takes some very strong evidence to compel me to do so.We thank you for your patience with us during this time, we know its been frustrating and disheartening and I apologize. To help ease the pain I am enclosing a game time card good for 7 days. We wish you guys all the best.
Cheers,
GM Akahige 1. If They are not guilty pls can anyone tell me why this group is 84 /75 /75 /75 lvls after ~10 months ? how it is possible ?
2. Is Nostromo allowed to use by NC Soft policy ?
7. OFFICIAL SERVICE
NC Interactive has designed Lineage II for official play only as offered through the Service by NC Interactive at the Web Site and not through any other means. You further agree not to access, create or provide any other means through which Lineage II may be played by others, as through server emulators. You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of ‘bots’ and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for Lineage II, except that you may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by this Agreement. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure.
You may not sell or auction any Lineage II accounts, characters, items, currency or copyrighted material for real-world money or items or services of any value, nor may you assist others in doing so. NC Interactive may from time to time in its sole discretion implement various forms of filtering, blocking or monitoring of IP addresses or proxies used to use, play or access the Game(s) or the Service, including without limitation blocking or filtering measures that restrict your ability to use, play or access Lineage II or Service outside of the territories in which NC Interactive makes Lineage II or Service available.3. Why someone from our clan how got banned by trading items from 1 account to another account (both belong to 1 owner) got banned and don't have second chance ? Ticket ref nr : 090205-001056
And it even gets worse , honestly i am clueless what to do , did i curse too much ?
Response (GM Akahige) 02/19/2009 06:09 PM
Hello,
We have thoroughly reviewed your response in regards to the termination of your account. After careful consideration of the all information available to us, including that which was from you, from our support staff, and from the logs of the Lineage II service, we must inform you of our final decision in this matter is to permanently close this account.
At this time we must also respectfully inform you that any further questions regarding the account termination may not be responded to, as we feel that this matter has been attended to and addressed appropriately to fully inform you of the situation.
Kindest Regards,
GM Akahige5. Why there are so many bots on Luna and ppl using 3rd programs ? They are even not pick up arrows from the ground and I have massive lags when I running on fields full of arrows , this effect of bots ?
6. Aion Will be the same ? Full of Bots ?
for now its my questions, many ppl who want post something about this situation did it in other Thread and left game , most of them were our friends.They left because they didn't see any justice in L2 and They don't want pay no more money if they don't see any effects since 4 years.They were members of Legit Lineage2 community.
guys, i just read all this threads about us, i dont want to ask all my 800 in game friends to start make more threads/posts/problems/work for gm's. We got banned when WHOLE group was live, i already write what was happens multiple times
diabolic got d/c (its happens quite alot at russian internet), we was running from mobs and trying to survive, when he login we continue exp, after it 4 our supports got d/c and cannot log in game (some strange) we ask bd to give us shadow dance and start move to safe place, where everyone get d/c and just banned...
mass petitions is just a method to ask GM's to make a detailed investinagion.
I'm tired to read many posts about we are bots, when NOONE dont see us even 1 time botting, thats just ridiculous.
p.s. i'm 84, with 75 subs :)
In an effort to give all players a voice on the forum, please use this forum in regards to the ongoing discussion with the recent banning and general bot discussion. This is a thread based on the comments found in the below thread:
We want players to have a voice and to have a central place to do so. That being said, any further posts outside of this thread on this topic will be locked and deleted without warning and any posters who open these threads can be subject to disciplinary action up to and including a temporary ban from the forums.
Please keep all posts constructive and keep accusations and flames to yourself. This is an open forum where I hope we can have a great discussion without it devolving into a flame war. If that happens the thread will be locked. Keep it clean folks.
Thanks,
-Kinslon
U want to give us a voice at forum?
We want from u to give us no bot servers.
For the recent banning and unbanning,i can only say all people that play at luna long enough,they know that they was botting,ofcourse no1 will admit it.
U want facts?U want to see them botting?
I have a suggestion for u.Tell ur GMs to create toons on regural accounts,make some daggers,1-40 is 5-6 hours if u know what to do,if u dont just pm me ingame to help u get 40lvl.After u hit 40lvl,i can escord u in all high xp grounds to show what a wanderfull bot haven is Luna.
I cant escord u at HB,sorry.U have to find ur way alone there.The bot trains that are running there is very easy to detect.
Check their wh,u will find amazing tons of parts for s80 armors,ofcourse they have earn them "legit".
U want more?
This is a siege weekend,just log at server and see how many people at siege fields use ilegal programs for targeting and spaming pots.
U want more?
Get out of ur office and start do ur job,or atleast the job we assume GMs have.
If we assume wrong,pls inform us to either move to another game or accept that this is a bot game and u can play it effectivly only if u bot.
U want to hear people voice at forum?
We want GMs ingame to do their job.
After the last incident our hope to play legit on a legit server have vanished.
Rather than hit the players for botting target the root of all the problem Walker (towalker.com) FILE A LAWSUIT AGANIST THEM AND SUPERMAN.
EXAMPLE: Blizzard filed a lawsuit against Glider (a bot program). Blizzard Won. Glider is now in the process of appealing.
In short no third party program = no banning = more income = more players going legit. and if they don't like it they'll just quit. In the end farmers will have to play live and prices will skyrocket and people will decide its not worth to buy adena. Thus prices on items will drop because people will understand that theres no way ppl can make money the economics will stablize.
Look this is not only a Luna problem, on Teon we have same problem.So what players can do.
Some1 will say nothing but I will say lots of thing.
First sing on all game forums,start speak how NCSoft do not care about customers and that they don't even have a support sisitem.Make huge propaganda against this company and sugest to all players to not buy any NCSoft product.If you do all this you wil not kill NCSoft but you will make bad propaganda that will come to NCSoft corea and they will clean NCSoft USA ofice again.Also there is court that protect customers(for any products)so if they tell you for 13Euro you get 1 month playing L2 and you acept EULA rules and in same time Boters pay same price like you and they get 10time more then you your customers right are in dangerous and NCSoft don't doing anything to protect you.
If you realy wanna make all this and get some money from it this is what you need to do.
1 step:get a layer
2 step: press charges based on breacing customers rights(must be same for all customes)layer will expline you
3 calculate your time in game(NCSoft give you for how long you play) and give to your layer to make money calculation time=money(1 hour play = 1 hour work)
4 on this money add some more for emotional demage that NCSoft did to you
5 they will make deal whit you to stop you go on court and you will end whit ++$$
if we all start do this they will change something.
P.S. ask them how much they pay to that guy from Texas(he was demanding 100k$ case finished before court)
Well since nobody is addressing the issue at hand (Edit: 10 other posters beat me before I typed this out), I will do my best to summarize the situation and the opinions of myself and others.
First, I'll say thanks for opening a thread so that we can at least voice out our opinions. I just hope that they will be considered.
Here is a rundown of the situation:
It was a tough call for NCsoft. On Luna, a GM (DrSabre I believe) did a great job by banning a group of 85s who were blatantly bots. Unfortunately, Luna is an extremely bot-infested server (it was for a while, may be getting better now with recent GM activity) where people see it as if the program is built into the game. The characters who were banned started new accounts (probably even took advantage of the half-off promotion sadly...) to spam GMs and support, as well as post in the Luna forums (I really hope that GMs did not feel any pressure from these accounts - they all have single digit posts and were all made April 2009; it is SO obvious who these posters really are... here is the thread btw http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=200589)
These people used their other accounts and friends to stage mass petitioning, shouting, and other behavior (look in general forums, nya's locked thread, for screenshot of this RIDICULOUS behavior) to pressure the GMs into unbanning the accounts that were 100% justly banned (I do not even need to have seen them in action to know they are bots, for such a new server and considering how the greatest legit powergamers on older servers are nowhere near them, I'd say the chances that they are legit are equal to the chance that since L2 release there has been someone manually killing starting gremlins 8 hours a day... i.e. 0%.)
The result: after many legits (including myself) cheered that action is being taken, the bots were unbanned, and to add insult to injury, given 7 day time cards. Anyone can make a character on Luna now and hear the unbanned "HEROES" bragging about their godliness (just get a Russian translator).
Do I think NCsoft cracked under the pressure? Yes.
Do I think it was a tough decision for them? Very tough.
Do I think it was the right decision? Unfortunately, no. Look at all the forums, hundreds of people are emerging to say how ridiculous it is, many of them quitting. Even if 50 "people" on Luna quit because of the bot party banning, it would show the other tens of thousands the strong stance of the GM team (which, of recently, has renewed my interest in the game. Unfortunately, I no longer have any motivation to level past 79 most of the bots are gone - I just do not feel like wasting thousands of hours of my life when someone else spent almost nothing).
I can only think of one solution now that would really help this situation: go full throttle on every server banning bots and other 3rd party program users. Show us that you mean it when you say you will prevent future cheating in this game. Places like hellbound, varka, IOP, and other high level zones should be checked DAILY at varying times - these bots have by far the most damaging effect on the game.
I promise you NCsoft, if you can save this game, I will spend my own time advertising this game to thousands of people - I no longer will have to be embarrassed about showing I play a game full of cheaters. Deal?
I am just really suprised that you use only ingame interaction as way to get proofs for ban. I have thought that there are huge amounts of logs of most ingame actions which is actualy the main source of bans. And when one gms made mistake and forgot to record the ingame actions as proofs, why dont you check the logs to get the proofs before you unban ppl who are known as bots even on other servers.
This way it really looks like that either GMs are corrupted or mass petitions and so called "server balance" is more important for them or (and its proly the right one) your ways of detecting and proving bots are insufficient (*spelling).
Maybe the solution is really to let Luna be the bot-server and just block all transfer from Luna to other not-that-much-corrupted servers. It might even attract some ppl to retail again, they can freely bot on Luna and enjoy their way of game.
you know at russian l2 server there are no bots and like a 30k online at prime time (all servers together - l2on.ru) bot/cheat programs just dont work there, and i think its isnt problem to make some anti-bot software (like ShieldConsole at l2.ru)
Yes, that may be lovely, but the question still stands: why do you, yes YOU and 95% of ppl on Luna bot and destroy this game? Why? Are you so incompetent to not own without cheating?
Well you're not botting anymore obviously, with 83/75/75/75 and +17 skills there isnt really any point to bot, is it. Dont make a long face like you were a poor victim of a horrible mistake. You have been botting since day one, saw you contless times in Ginats cave.
And others? Listen to this, HEROES in a bottrain, that is something possible only on Luna. Saw 3 or 4 heroes in one bottrain, TheRock has been botting in varka for half a year on the same spot ffs, Dorfasaurus has probably never played live too. I could go on.
So dont use your lines, every individual that played on Luna knows this, but wont say anything, coz he is a bot too.
From all ppl on this server, after 10+months there areonly 4 clans on Luna that go legit, everyone else is a botter. S80 weapons on Luna, when first S80 duals on another older server appeared only recently? Gimme a break, I am not a ****** to believe your lines about using nostromo and ****. Just be quiet and play your invincible botted up char.
Look does anyone read or do you ppl just go on epic rants. THIS IS SIMPLE.
NCsoft -> PRESS CHARGES ON ******** + Superman.
Then GM don't have to waste there freakin time going about banning players.
WHY file a lawsuit Aganist them!?
(1) They're making money off players
(2) They're Screwing with the economics and gameplay
(3) They're Costing you more money for every account lost due to there program.
(4) They're promoting farming activites
(5) They're HELPING basically BREAK EVERY EULA You make people agree too!
IF ncsoft doesn't wanna take legal action like blizzard did aganist GLIDER then your doing yourself a disfavor for your Employees and L2 Community.
Nya beat me, I was about to edit my post with some additional information:
I also agree that all server transfers should stop. Either that or make Luna, or a new server, an "unregulated server" - people can do what they want there. Strictly enforce rules on every other server.
Ragnarok Online just made a free to play server and this is essentially what happened. All of the bots moved there and the original servers are (amazingly) bot free. The situation is much better for everyone overall.
Of course this is a drastic measure, but maybe it is for the better. I'm still very upset that GMs ruined the phoenix server by letting in 100+ bots that outlevel every single player on our once great server. Worst of all, they continue to bot daily (Ketra, HB citadel, and various other places on 3rd subs). I know exactly what Nya says when he/she wants to prevent server transfer - it sucks working so hard to be on top to one day be nothing because of an influx of bots who had unfair opportunities on other servers. Many aspects of the game, like olympiad, become unplayable, and overall motivation to play the game is all but gone.
Beside retroactive bans (I'm sure they have data/logs on many of these players), the only way I can forgive GMs is to fix this issue once and for all so that it never happens again in the future.
Guy, it s a waste of time, gm team work for money dont work for beautiful Lineage2 without Bot. It's a funny vision of the life.
Stop hypocrisy, it s easy to see bot train, i can understand for a mistake for silent party. But come in luna and look all varka spot ketra spot cata, necro , hellbound spot, iop chromatics. We can see bot train 24H/24H.
Gm team atm wait only some flamm on this thread for delete this thread, legit are dead on luna it s not a choice of us or . It s a choice of NCsoft.
It s sad but atm no gm post one answer, team gm wait for delete this thread and close this pathetics story.
Open your eyes lineage2 and all serveur of nc soft are beautiful bot country, for make money and go fast in the end game, it s sad and i am disagree with this but it s the reality .
It s too late now, nc soft cant stop bot in luna and other serveur.
Lot of new player dont come or go on private, because for him dont understand why guy use walker or another s h i t for level up.
I hope some gm can answer of many question of legit ppl on nc soft serveur and dont delete this theard without answer.
This thread has NOTHING to do with the topic that was being discussed in the previous specified thread.
Please re-open the thread and be more careful about this type of blanket moderation in the future.
Thank you,
- Jay
Kinslon, read this freakin thread and unlock the other thread that was unjustly locked before I create another new thread to discuss those problems there.
Or was this entire thread just a facade with the appearance of showing you care about what we have to say?
Have you read a single post in this thread yet? Does any GM plan on going through it?
When are we going to get a dedicated forum mod who is COMPETENT enough to deal with the issues that your paying customers have?
What the hell is wrong with you guys?
"Hey, you know theres been so many 'bot this' and 'bot that' threads going around lately.. I'm getting pretty tired of reading them."
"You know what? Me too."
"Okay well, I'll just lock every thread I can that seems to be discussing bots and redirect them all to one simple thread. Then we can sweep it under the rug, out of our sight, and they think we actually care. Everybody's happy."
Is this a Joke ? Did I miss April Fools day?? Sadly no...
The GM statements hold no value nowadays. First you said that we should know how to detect bots and we may get ban if we party with one BECAUSE BY NOW WE SHOULD KNOW BETTER... and then you guys (NCStaff) openly admit in the forums YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE HOW TO DO IT and your whole system to ban people is based in how a GM interact with a user and your logs are a joke, how about the person is cheating and is infront of the monitor when you show up? how your wonderfull and your fail method is going to make any difference at all.
Whats the point to create this thread Mr. Kinslon? if you havent figure out the right answer you should have give to your customers, answers that dont contradict each others.... When you start geting owned bad, you delete threads or close them.
Some threads got deleted not because were offtopic but because the reallity hurts, so you rather delete them than deal with it, so be it.
Solution, fix your **** method to ban people, be serious, request Korea to patch the **** thing, do everything that is possible in your hands, and then I will ask my friends to promote the game, so I will not be ashame I am playing a game where the Staff doesnt have a clue about how to get rid of cheaters, or simply they just dont want to do it.
Excuses like my post count is low is because I am busy banning cheaters, get real... Thats a lame excuse. The reason you guys dont post so often is because you lack discipline effort and williness to do the job you were hire it for. There are no such things as I dont have time, those who are limit by that mindset are those who are full of fail.
What can this thread do? Honestly. All what said is been said. That party will not be subject of an re-reinvestigation anyways unless you want to look totaly clueless in solving this bot/ban problem.
The most disappointed thing for me is that you gamemasters are not able (at least not sufficiently enough) to see who are EULA voilators and who not. You ban people. After mass petition you do "reinvestigation" and decide to unban. What should I think about the qualily of your "ïnvestigation"? Would there have been an "reinvestigation" if there was no mass petition? What about people who clearly did not voilated any EULA rules and got banned? E.G. one of our clan mates who traded gear from 1 account to an other account after he transfered?
It's no secret that Luna server is infested by 3rd party software players. From day 1 the server opened massive botting was common gameplay. Hence get on a regular char and run places like Cata's/IT/ToI/IoP/HS/HB. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out who is on 3rd party software and who not.
For a moment I had good hope you finaly try to address the botting problem in this game.
New GM's appeared in game. Ban waves became public knowledge after months of silence.
GM's finaly became visual for players in the game en even "TOP" players who voilated game rules for so long where no longer save.
Your recently action, unbanning accounts that have been first proven to be voilators, have smashed the regaining faith and ****** off a lot of players.
Anyways, GL on your next actions b/c the renewal of my account will depend on how you will address the Luna bot problem in this very near future.
Here's something constructive - FIRE ALL YOUR GMS and Rehire Lawyers to Moderate the Game. Because they smarter and know that in order to find a person "guilty" there must be hard evidence to support it.
"Guilty beyond reasonable doubt" (LEARN it, USE IT, Love it)
First of all, if this is discussion i hope GMs will answer on our questions.
1. Will you make list of baned charakters? If no, why u will not do it?
2. When we will see efects of your work? I whant acctions not promis.
3. Last question for today. If u have played on Luna (reteil) and see what place it is and what happend, will u still be there and pay for it? If yes, why? On this question i dont demand answer. Just think about this.
NCsoft Has Two Options:
(1) Fire All GMs and replace them with employees who know the law and know the EULA and is willing to follow protocol and one who doesn't play Lineage 2 on there spare time.
(2) File Lawsuit Against ******** + Superman And Any High Profile Third Party Gaming Software
-----------------------------------------
[Why Suggested?]
(1) Your Unbanning players because they where holding a large protest in Aden.
(2) Your banning some players who play legit and unwilling to see there side of the story let alone provide hard detailed evidence.
(3) Your banning players without proper protocol and procedures and your probably invading privacy (which is against the law).
(4) Your not in support of the L2community as a whole and your not doing it for the community your doing it for specific players in Lineage 2.
(5) Your GMs are giving NcSoft a bad name by favoring some players and not others and allow some to break the EULA.
(6) Your Not Absolute, if you where You would of banned every player (with supporting evidence). Instead you ban without no support giving automated responses and not taking the time to review each case. (what do you ppl do @ ncsoft west flip a coin?!)
(7) Your New GMs are corrupt as seen by targetting specific players and not the whole.
--------------------------------------------
(8) ******** and Superman are the cause of the high frequency of botting and it should be stopped by filing a lawsuit.
(9) Blizzard won the case aganist Gluider a third party software use there tamplete to prosecute ******** and Superman.
(10) By removing these 2 major third party software you'll see a significant change in economics, farming activites, player activites
(11) You should Suspend first before banning. ALWAYS give a warning and tell them to at least stop (NEVER GIVE MORE THAN 1 chance to stop Its ridiculus you gave that player on luna 3 CHANCES?!).
--------------------------------------------
Guys if they want suggetstions there are specialists out there which you can pay them and find solution for your company. personally i will not do it for free.
my job is to pay the service which i do. your job is to keep EULA rules into the Community. can you please do your job?
i mean lets stop for a second and think. after what happened your reply was to hear our voice and open a new topic?
so from something specific ( 1 top lvl group) now we can talk about botting generally? as you wish botting is bad. are you happy? banning botters is good. unban botters... is totally tottaly bad.
when you lock this one dont forget to open another thread please.
btw maybe SC450 is right (and free)
Ok... so the GM's made a HUGE mistake and now they are paying for it all over the place.
Was the party that was banned botting at the time - who knows; in the past? chances are yes.
Does this suck for those of us that have tried very hard and keep playing the game legit - yes.
I can completely understand that the GM team wants to make 100% sure that they are taking the correct action, but this time the S.O.P. failed, and failed badly - I have a feeling that this will never happen again.
I am not defending those that got banned (honestly if you read the other boards, they brag about how much they bot and how they are now > L2's GMs) because chances are in some way they will get caught and God willing it will hurt.
If you where to file a lawsuit against NCsoft for banning your account and NCsoft had no supporting evidence to back up their claim that you broke the EULA chances are you would win and get emotional damage, Lost of time, etc. Hence why I advocate they should follow protocols.
Recently, GMs have been doing mass bans with Poor supporting details evidence, and then give the player automated responses saying we don't care and we're not going to even bother hearing what you have to say.
If I was that player I'd report the company to the BBB and then file a lawsuit against the company if they still don't wish to overturn (given if the GM fail to provide evidence linking you to using third party software).
GM(s) at the moment are walking on thin ice because if there were one or more players willing to take them to court and GMs could not support their argument in court Ncsoft will lose a ton of money and more fallout occur.
Solution #1: Unban re-evaluate all banns follow protocols.
Solution #2: File Lawsuit against ******** and Superman
Solution #3: Fire all GMs and Hire Ones who are willing to follow the EULA guidelines and follow standard protocol to validating the player using third party software. In addition, GM shouldn’t even be playing the game or choosing any sides for that matter. GMs SERVE L2 COMMUNITY NOT SELECT INDIVIDUALS.
anyway aside from bot programs and other stuff ppl talk about,there is 1 important aspect that apparently nobody bring up.
why u have all servers empty of population?
of course bot groups gonna appear when u have 80% of map empty of players.isnt like bot trains actually have to worry about competition for areas when there isnt even live players to fill them.peopel even bot with wars up because chance to get found(by enemies) is next to nothing on less popular spots or when u have a total control of server like nova had in sayha when they botted on HB with no oposition.
not to mention the epics jewels farms to sell for RL cash on most servers where is 1 side dominanting all(which r most of servers)
lvl 40 toon transfer from servers like sayha with valakas/antharas/zaken/AQ/baium with only purpose to get Rl cash for them
Kinslon closed my thread and redirected me here to continue my discussion.
Now take your spam "crap" and make something constructive out of it, rather than post after post that gets skimmed over and disregarded.
lol look @ you go still providing nothing constructive now your flaming GG.
I thought it was pretty constructive to try to advise you of wiser ways to have your message heard.
But apparently you're much more happy to look like a ranting and raving madman with little to no coherent dialogue to contribute.. Spewing out the same lines ad nauseam, with absolutely no continuity and cohesion to any of the posts. You aren't even replying to anyone, just repeating yourself over and over.
But whatever, if thats what you think will get your voice heard, then keep at it. I'll have a laugh when you get banned for persistant spamming.
BTW::
This is LUNA bot discussion keep ur non-constructive crap out of thread
YOU are the only one who has flamed in this thread so far =)
This sucks. I do not like the precidence that you have set nor the message that this sends to the botting community. Go bot as long as you have lots of friends willing to mass petition for reactivation and whine on the forum until the GMs give in.
The GM stated in his post compelling evidence that the players were botting yet simply because they were chatting in game (which happens to be much f'ing easy when your char is automated I would expect!) is enough reason to unban. Basically, you are CONDONING botting but not afk botting.
Thx GMs, I have lost a lot of respect and any hope that you may actually be trying to do your job properly.
Screw this game, I'll go play another game where botting is not acceptable.
I thought it was pretty constructive to try to advise you of wiser ways to have your message heard.
But apparently you're much more happy to look like a ranting and raving madman with little to no coherent dialogue to contribute.. Spewing out the same lines ad nauseam, with absolutely no continuity and cohesion to any of the posts. You aren't even replying to anyone, just repeating yourself over and over.
But whatever, if thats what you think will get your voice heard, then keep at it. I'll have a laugh when you get banned for persistant spamming.
BTW::
YOU are the only one who has flamed in this thread so far =)
lol flaming and not posting anything constructive yet again, do advise you to just stop talking.
Kinslon, read this freakin thread and unlock the other thread that was unjustly locked before I create another new thread to discuss those problems there.
Or was this entire thread just a facade with the appearance of showing you care about what we have to say?
Have you read a single post in this thread yet? Does any GM plan on going through it?
When are we going to get a dedicated forum mod who is COMPETENT enough to deal with the issues that your paying customers have?
What the hell is wrong with you guys?
"Hey, you know theres been so many 'bot this' and 'bot that' threads going around lately.. I'm getting pretty tired of reading them."
"You know what? Me too."
"Okay well, I'll just lock every thread I can that seems to be discussing bots and redirect them all to one simple thread. Then we can sweep it under the rug, out of our sight, and they think we actually care. Everybody's happy."
sadly... no NC, we aren't happy.
you sound mad, you should quit. the game is really getting to you.
hmm? Upset would probably be SC450, he seems like hes getting pretty frustrated being called on his büllshit. =D
I'm just not stupid enough to be fooled by this büllshit gms are trying to pull. It was 6 hours ago that Kinslon closed how many threads so far and told us all to come here to voice our opinions?
And exactly how many gms have even read any of the posts in this thread yet? Let alone ponder an answer and reply to any single one..? If you can't see what this thread is, you should probably open your eyes a little bit.. You really can't afford to be so naive when you are being manipulated like this. =)
**edit** BTW.. Has anyone noticed the tags for this thread?
Go bot as long as you have lots of friends willing to mass petition for reactivation and whine on the forum until the GMs give in.
The GM stated in his post compelling evidence that the players were botting yet simply because they were chatting in game (which happens to be much f'ing easy when your char is automated I would expect!) is enough reason to unban. Basically, you are CONDONING botting but not afk botting.
Point in case if it was brought into a legal system Ncsoft would lose why?
Because they have no definitive answer on seeing who's a bot. For all you know the player just made a macro doing the following:
00 /target xplayer
01 /assist
02 /attack
03 /delay [X amount of time]
04 /target xplayer
05 /assist
06 /attack
-repeat-
and player leading off the attack basically has to lock on if he needs players to follow he just does this
00 /target %self
while the others keep pressing the same macro over and over to have them stay on point
OR
Players are right clicking the leader of the party to assist
Both look like bots but irregardless, they're not bots.
GM's are playing Hit or Miss (guessing game) with players accounts legit or not and not willing to address the evidence they have against you because they don't have none to begin with.
This is why I suggest firing the GMs or make the current GMs follow standard procedure/protocols to validate that he/she is/isn't a bot. All the banning that they've been doing are Hit/miss bans with no specific evidence backing up there investigations. They expect the player to just give up on trying to get there accounts back. If you feel you've been banned unfairly I advise you to take the time to get back your account regardless of what they do (Ignore), Automate response(s), Tell you straight out You've been banned too bad QQ more.
If you need to spread the word about how bad the support service is by all means spread the word about how NCsoft service is bad. Discourage newcomers from ever buying a NCsoft game. Discourage people who are thinking about going to AION coming from other mmos to think twice. Because in short NCsoft west is too incompetent to maintain there EULA nor do they care about the individual and emotional damage and wasted time you put on your account.
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Solution #1: Unban re-evaluate all banns follow protocols.
Solution #2: File Lawsuit against ******** and Superman
Solution #3: Fire all GMs and Hire Ones who are willing to follow the EULA guidelines and follow standard protocol to validating the player using third party software. In addition, GM shouldn’t even be playing the game or choosing any sides for that matter. GMs SERVE L2 COMMUNITY NOT SELECT INDIVIDUALS.
SC450, (some of us) appreciate your opinion, but please do not ask NCsoft to unban more accounts. What they should be doing now is banning. Honestly you are sounding like an alt account of someone who was banned for cheating and you are hurt because others got unbanned while you did not. Also stop posting the names of programs that is not allowed on these forums.
P.S. According to GMs, the unbanned people given a "second chance" have more than violated that chance by my standards (Just look at their logs how they admit to botting and being godly, use a translator if necessary). Let's hope I am wrong in thinking that they will get away with it anyway...
Honestly you are sounding like an alt account of someone who was banned for cheating and you are hurt because others got unbanned while you did not.
He is the 'friend' of Pearlene whos first post was a Q&A about how he felt after he was banned. The thread got removed so I can't quote it =/ but yeah, thats pretty much the story as far as I see it.
SC450, (some of us) appreciate your opinion, but please do not ask NCsoft to unban more accounts. What they should be doing now is banning. Honestly you are sounding like an alt account of someone who was banned for cheating and you are hurt because others got unbanned while you did not. Also stop posting the names of programs that is not allowed on these forums.
P.S. According to GMs, the unbanned people given a "second chance" have more than violated that chance by my standards (Just look at their logs how they admit to botting and being godly, use a translator if necessary). Let's hope I am wrong in thinking that they will get away with it anyway...
Given the necessary evidence to validate that player is using the third party software yes that player should undeniably be banned permanently. However, GMs are doing "hit/miss" all across the servers not just Luna.
Think of it likes this in 2009 USA released a stimulus package. In that package contained "fat" that fat was shoved through congress so fast people really didn't care to read/listen to the information and plans. There was a lot of unnecessary spending and regulation laws in it. To the point, what I'm trying to say is that each case should be reviewed Once more to verify that they are not banning legit players and that your not shoving a mass ban down everyone’s throat and saying "oh they all bot" /bury all the evidence.
Hence why I concluded/suggest that they unban and/or re-evaluate. If a GM has hard evidence that being (A) Logs (B) In-game Recording of the action (C) Outside source ie: witnesses etc. Then Yes it should be perma banned. BUT* if a GM does not have enough evidence to support the move to bann then they should unban and further there investigation. Now your going to ask why? Why? becuase legal actions may be taken and doubt will arise and More unnecessary resources will be added to something all cause a GM failed to give hard evidence. In worst case scenario NcSoft can be sued. In short, my suggestion is to protect NCsoft(s) Assets. If you understand what I have just typed then you understand fully why I say to unban and re-evaluate.
He is the 'friend' of Pearlene whos first post was a Q&A about how he felt after he was banned. The thread got removed so I can't quote it =/ but yeah, thats pretty much the story as far as I see it.
Flame more because this has nothing to do with thread but if you wanna bring up pearlene. Pearlene was using a G15 keyboard and a nostromo n52te and was playing live the whole time. A GM was purposely porting players in her party all over the place, however pearlene didn't know it was a GM so she asked them if they where getting glitched and/or lagging. During that time the GM didn't not make any conversation what’s so ever to verify that they're all there playing live. Pearlene Silent moved to avoid getting aggro during the glitch/lag (which the gm was purposely doing) and had everyone soe out because she had class to go to in a few hours. From what I was told after she came back she was banned. SO ya banning legit bystanders is part of the mass banning. Only reason why your not hearing nothing from the legit players is because they lose there right to talk on official forums, as a means to hide the real truth that GMs do ban Legit players.
Keep getting fed into the propoganda that GMs are out there watching for you. It's a lie so keep up the flaming because nothing u say is constructive so far!
Btw pearlene knew its was only a matter of time before he'd get the hammer ever since she posted that information about MrRainman botting it up and getting mass deleved in varka (from 80 down to 70). Pearlene was willing to accept the fact he'd be targeted for ban from that point on. Most of all the officers in RR said to delete that post because they're afraid of getting banned and/or start a Pi==ing contest with NOVA on who bots and who not back when they where on sayha) . So if anything (you just banned the one player who was trying to help balance the L2 Community on Sayha.
BTW you need to do more cleaning on Sayha Server apparently players are now scared to bot till expansion comes out. (Because they feel that once expansion comes out mass banning stopps LOL?)
Please Target the Following Clans: RR,Catalyst,ICA,RIP,IS,First,Outikka,Paradygim,The Resistance,Deathwish,AdenRejects,All4one,Darkflame ,Shogunite (if your clan hasn't been called out its because your not as well known to be using a thirdpartyprogram -congrats- to those not called out)
Now just cause I called these specific clans out doesn't mean you should do a mass bann on every player take the time to practice methods of logging information and compling detailed evidence to back up the reason to ban and if they attempt to call you out know that you have HARD evidence to back up your reason for the bann those there is no reasonably doubt for it to be overturned and/or lawsuit should take place.
If you finally understand or knew my standpoint for the getgo congrats u just earned urself a cookie. If not you should just stop reading right now.
This is really awfull. I cant imagine what will be next? The BOTS will get some special items, or there are going to be some special events only for BOT trains ? I can write it thousand more times BOT TRAINS BOT TRAINS ... They are everywhere and everyone knows it but NCsoft makes poo on it because it have money from it.
Why NC soft allow botting? For players that intent too play this game like it was/is created this is a nightmare, how u can keep up with ure 3/4 hours playtime a day mayby some 6/7 or more but still impossible too beat 24/7 we have a server that has destroyed all the real players and took away the fun.
Thank you Nc-Soft for building a new game, this is not the game i intended too play, and also not according too ure eula and basics, can we get a refund because u promised us something and couldnt give what u offered?
we pay for something we dont get, and this is also a violation.
At start i dont wanna judge Diabolic group from Luna . For me is ok they can play agine on Luna . But i wanna ask a question to NC Soft
1. They ban Diabolic group
2. After mass petition from frendly clans of this group , Nc soft make investigation .
3. Nc soft unban Diabloc group
So ? Diabolic group was innocent ? Ok . So they (NC Soft ) can be wrong in thousands of cases! too . So why not make new investigation for all banned accout from last 5 years ? DIabolic group have many friendly ppl who can make petition , but what with ppl how have small clans or play most of time alone ? Bigger can more ?
At start i dont wanna judge Diabolic group from Luna . For me is ok they can play agine on Luna . But i wanna ask a question to NC Soft
1. They ban Diabolic group
2. After mass petition from frendly clans of this group , Nc soft make investigation .
3. Nc soft unban Diabloc group
So ? Diabolic group was innocent ? Ok . So they (NC Soft ) can be wrong in thousands of cases! too . So why not make new investigation for all banned accout from last 5 years ? DIabolic group have many friendly ppl who can make petition , but what with ppl how have small clans or play most of time alone ? Bigger can more ?
Reason being was the GM failed to provide HARD EVIDENCE why else would it be overturned. If you had that many ppl/witnesses vouching for diabolic odds are your @ fault. If your going to do it for one or a few accounts you might as well just stop banning all @ once and go for the jugular (like I stated before) ******** + Superman. Because now all your doing is bringing up doubt and more problems within the l2 community.
And now Nc soft wanna ''constructive idea '' ?
1. Block connect with server from bot , 90 % lolprivate servers have antibot system and it work good ! wanna more info PM.
2. Dont ban only branded cata and woa <lol> , go to high lev spots like HB .
But dont need make more points because if u make 1. point your job will be more easy .
And now Nc soft wanna ''constructive idea '' ?
1. Block connect with server from bot , 90 % lolprivate servers have antibot system and it work good ! wanna more info PM.
2. Dont ban only branded cata and woa <lol> , go to high lev spots like HB .
But dont need make more points because if u make 1. point your job will be more easy .
Banning players is pointless and a hopeless war/effort/time.
Ncsoft should target the core of all the problems (******** and Superman)
then GMs can maintain the server in a positive direction and help the l2community grow and prosper. In addition to taking out the third party software, Ncsoft can maintain a stable and (positive) income (thats cash I'm talking about). In addition it'll restablize the server and farmers prices on adena will skyrocket because they need to do it by hand thus creating less adena buyers and less/nomore SPam about buying adena.
Once you take out that problem you can then focus on the issue of pvp where players gain advantage through use of third party programs to auto spam CP/HP/MP pots. This is what separating "fair" and "equal" play in L2.
While I appreciate that some people are very vocal about their opinion,
it would be nice if certain persons would refrain from posting the same
stuff 10 times in a row. Either they understood you after your first post
or they will stop reading after the fifth. (Hello SC450, yes I mean you.)
Giving constructive criticism I would suggest that the heads of the GM
staff get a private Lineage 2 account. Then instead of logging in from
work, they go log in from home or using a proxy. Without GM tools,
without any logger open. Just like a normal customer.
Then you stand your level 3 char in giran or monster derby track for
10 minutes each.
After that you go drink a coffee with your wife or husband and come
back after 30 minutes. Now you check the pms on your toon and
make a list of the websites that pmed you.
Go ahead and invest 20-50$(USD) in buying an account from one of
those websites. (Your company might actually refund the 20-50$).
With a fresh level 78 toon you now go to hellbound. If you were
smart and ever played the game before you bought a dagger of
some sort, preferably a Treasure hunter.
Now you run up to the groups there and try to start a conversation
with them. Just be nice and chat while your stealthed. If you really
know wtf your doing, you might even be able not to die at green spot
from the mobs seeing through stealth. Since I doubt you ever played
the game though, your probably have to walk back.
See it as improving in your job. Its good to know what your doing in
your job, don't you agree?
Write down the names of the characters you see in groups that do
not even bother to reply to you. Use the bot report button.
Thats all for one evenings work. Next morning when your back at
work try to see if you can find anything about you using the bot
report button on the toons whose names you wrote down in your
system. Hand over the websites you bought your char from to
the lawyers of your company, they will be able to find out names
to sue.
3 hours of work from home will accomplish more then your entire
team has accomplished the last month and show you more what
we as your customers deal with, then whatever weird stuff you
guys are doing right now.
Payed referee my ***. Referees at least know the game they
administrate.
Btw if your interested: I would be willing to work for you guys
in a time limited contract to educate your GMs on this game. I am
sure I can fit that somewhere into my working schedule, looks to me
like they really need it.
imo, banning players ins't the way to go. What needs to be done is stop the ability of the bot programs to be used/to work in the game. Then no one will have to be banned because NCSoft techs will have done their jobs successfully in this area. Resorting to banning players for the use of a bot program but allowing the bot progam to continue to work in the game is ~~~~~ ummm, not good?
Also, I can understand that the GMs don't do the "stop the ability of the bot programs to be used/to work in the game" part. What GMs may want to start doing is, instead of giving no warning and just outright banning a toon. Give that toon a second chance. Give them a 7 day temp ban with the understanding that their next ban is perm. A good way to do this is to use the current situation on Luna with the toons that were banned then unbanned 7 days later. Monitor their chat/play and if it is warranted then give the offenders a perm ban.
Second chances is not a bad idea provided that the warning is followed up with the required reinforcement.
imo, banning players ins't the way to go. What needs to be done is stop the ability of the bot programs to be used/to work in the game. Then no one will have to be banned because NCSoft techs will have done their jobs successfully in this area. Resorting to banning players for the use of a bot program but allowing the bot progam to continue to work in the game is ~~~~~ ummm, not good?
Also, I can understand that the GMs don't do the "stop the ability of the bot programs to be used/to work in the game" part. What GMs may want to start doing is, instead of giving no warning and just outright banning a toon. Give that toon a second chance. Give them a 7 day temp ban with the understanding that their next ban is perm. A good way to do this is to use the current situation on Luna with the toons that were banned then unbanned 7 days later. Monitor their chat/play and if it is warranted then give the offenders a perm ban.
Second chances is not a bad idea provided that the warning is followed up with the required reinforcement.
This is the worst idea i ever heard.
Giving to all people second change,means that all are free to start botting and keep botting till they have the first warning.And then with second change,most of them will be high enough to no need anymore to bot.
This is the worst idea i ever heard.
Giving to all people second change,means that all are free to start botting and keep botting till they have the first warning.And then with second change,most of them will be high enough to no need anymore to bot.
It works in the RL work force (I work in a H.R. department), the main thing that is required is that all infractions must be followed up the next business day.
Of course, the workload at first would be difficult but as people see what happens to their peers then they'd straighten up and fly right.
Only few clans are legits on Luna. they are playing their best, most of them are nolifers and they have only 79+ lvl. Anyone who have 80+char with subs 80+ is bot bot bot bot bot (HB, varka, ketra,HS)..everybody can see them but GMs are "blind" to them . Kick out all corrupt GMs , which works for botters.BAN all botters forever. This is the only solution OMG
After 7 months he had 79 lvl on main and 60+ on Subcalss he and his brother play 10 h per day . He sped 1.5 months on the market to gear up in S grade and we also exp some alt chars (on the same account).
Brother play at day and when he back to home he play after dinner to long night.
It's possible to make exp faster even (depend on class and group what You have), but on new server at beginning You must play whit out Soul Shots to 40+ lvl to keep money for gear.
There is more examples how hard is it to exp on fresh server (Luna) in legit mode and some ppl what to say that 85 /75 /75 /75 made manualy.
Simply put Glider was ordered by the court to stop the sales/distribution of their third party software which automated there game play. In addition Glider (MDY) was told to pay Blizzard for damages ranging in the millions.
In short, this would MORE than likely help Lineage 2 all around. All you have to do, NcSoft, is take the leap of faith and press charges. If you don't wish to press charges your only hurting yourself/server/resources/reputation.
Well, Instead of conforming to the bots and letting them have their way. Make them conform to you by removing their ability to bot. Banning regardless of being legit or not hurts Ncsoft, as a GM you don’t see that because it’s your job to enforce the EULA and help promote a fair atmosphere. However GMs aren’t enforcing it and only selecting specific players which are also giving them a bad name since now they’re being used as “weapons” to kill your enemies. In addition they’re failing at upholding the CORE OF THE EULA. This game isn’t supposed to be a BAN war. I remember when I tried out this game back in beta players where always running about looking for parties to join. Nowadays no one is looking for parties. Hell, no one ever uses the party matching system. Do you want to know why? Because of the third party software, this is why there’s “isolated” clans where players don’t help the community and such.
Players are playing dirty and not upholding the spirit of what Lineage 2 is about. Let me give an example, if you’re warred with someone that hates you odds are they’ll use the report button in hopes they kick you out of game (that’s the wrong type of drama Lineage 2 is aiming for). I believe Pearlene told me how bad it was to add the report button in-game because there’s plenty of room for abuse of that macro. Pearlene was a prime example of playing legit and got hammered for it. The only way to play this game now is to not join a clan and not say a word because then you won’t get banned, from what I’m being told and that’s probably true.
So again this is really simple.
File lawsuit against Third party programs and stop the distribution
GMs need to stop serving individuals and/or they should get fired for being incompetent.
GMs Should NOT be playing Lineage 2 if they are it only explains why they are targeting specific players.
Ncsoft needs to reevaluate GM competency level for their position.
GMs Need to follow protocol to avoid Lawsuits against players
GMs Need to stop lying to their players and engage in misinformation/malicious conduct.
People make mistakes it’s a given, a GM is a person they make mistake. GMs need to acknowledge there mistake and correct it rather than sweep it under the rug and act like nothing ever happened.
GMs Should be taking an active role in the community (they should be helping players who are starting new and give them advice. It’s the key essential of what a GM is about “GAME MASTER” – one who knows the game front and back and is willing to give advice. In addition knows the EULA and is willing to give advice on what not to do.)
I could keep going on but I’ll leave it at that. As you can see the problem is GM related and third party related. If you correct both problems you fix the game and the l2community. In addition stabilize economics across the boards, bring new players to come try L2, more players will be proactive instead of submissive, less farmer Spam, less players buying Adena, etc.
It would be great if they sue companies that develope ******** and Superman (and win the lawsuit, of course), and it would be even greater if they do something to improve economy, by giving us better rewards with quests (something that could make possible to craft all kind of armor/weapon, possibly with a better chance of success), because the main problem here in Lineage is that it's all about economy... economy is the main factor here, if you don't have adena you just can't play as you'd like to do; so, why don't you try to give legit players the same possibilities as the others who spend thousands of euros (guess how) to take full top S80 gear and weapons? What's the point of improving equip up to S84 in Gracia pt 3 if we all know that from S grade only ebayers can afford it because if you fail to craft a weapon you will find yourself without (virtual)money? NCsoft, do you really know how hard is to play legit here in Lineage or maybe you are updating this game only for you-know-who? And then you tease us with these stupid automated messages "we ask you to not buy adena/this will make more spammers and botters/adena is the evil"?
It would be great if they sue companies that develope ******** and Superman (and win the lawsuit, of course), and it would be even greater if they do something to improve economy, by giving us better rewards with quests (something that could make possible to craft all kind of armor/weapon, possibly with a better chance of success), because the main problem here in Lineage is that it's all about economy... economy is the main factor here, if you don't have adena you just can't play as you'd like to do; so, why don't you try to give legit players the same possibilities as the others who spend thousands of euros (guess how) to take full top S80 gear and weapons? What's the point of improving equip up to S84 in Gracia pt 3 if we all know that from S grade only ebayers can afford it because if you fail to craft a weapon you will find yourself without (virtual)money? NCsoft, do you really know how hard is to play legit here in Lineage or maybe you are updating this game only for you-know-who? And then you tease us with these stupid automated messages "we ask you to not buy adena/this will make more spammers and botters/adena is the evil"?
I don't know if you just validated a reason as to why botting should be allowed or stating that they should do something about reducing the mats required to obtain those items.
But irregardless all things about the game should go through first the EULA then game play.
With that being said the proper direction is to Take out botting and reducing the amount of mats it takes to make those kinds of items.
People aren't complaining enough about it though, hence why there's nothing being done about those types of items.
Hypothetically If everyone whisked in and said to Put ALL THE Armor/Weapons from No grade to S84 into the Weapon shops / luxury shops I'm sure (with enough players agreeing to it) Lineage 2 Associates would do it because your a paying customer and they should be valued by the company because it is you who is keeping there company afloat.
HOWEVER, it is not likely they'd do so because these "people" cannot even ban the Obvious bot farmers let alone tell who's legit and who is not. At the same time fail to even go through protocol and procedures. People we're funding a company that isn't doing there job and serving the L2community, yet there are some who are too far up there butt to understand the big picture and are so willing to defend a company who isn't defending them.
I am absolutely against bots, I obviously agree that if you have a disease you should first cure it, but you also have to make sure that you will not take that disease again.
Now the main disease are bots, but if you block them they will anyway find a way to come back, and a way to discourage them is to make the game more playable for legit players, giving them a real possibility to reach the top without cheating... how to make an economy-based mmorpg like L2 more legit-friendly? I'm not saying that they should eliminate things like soulshots or putting all equip up to S84 in NPC shops, of course, but as I said, they should at least improve things like the quest system (most people do them almost only for class change, and in a mmorpg that's pretty sad)... it's such a potentially powerful system, and they could improve it without upset all L2 system.
It's almost 5 years that the whole system is so crappy, we always were so blind that we needed to be shown a mass unban of a bunch of potentially botter players to start to seriously complain about that kind of things? I think that it's also our fault, that we never assert our rights as customers.
Hypothetically If everyone whisked in and said to Put ALL THE Armor/Weapons from No grade to S84 into the Weapon shops / luxury shops I'm sure (with enough players agreeing to it) Lineage 2 Associates would do it because your a paying customer and they should be valued by the company because it is you who is keeping there company afloat.
they wouldn't, the struggle for better gear is an essential part of L2, and without it the lack of actual content (especially quests etc) would become much more obvious, because ppl would have absolutely nothing to do :P
what use is it to make ppl "happy" for a few weeks, just to see them quitting out of boredom then? :)
they wouldn't, the struggle for better gear is an essential part of L2, and without it the lack of actual content (especially quests etc) would become much more obvious, because ppl would have absolutely nothing to do :P
what use is it to make ppl "happy" for a few weeks, just to see them quitting out of boredom then? :)
I'm sorry are you the spokesperson for NCsoft?
Until I see a mass post of players saying they want this done under suggestion and NcSoft smugs it off saying something to that degree, I'll believe your statement. but for now I'd like to hope they're the kind that serve the L2community then again...
it is not likely they'd do so because these "people" cannot even ban the Obvious bot farmers let alone tell who's legit and who is not. At the same time fail to even go through protocol and procedures. (as stated before)
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The whole point in the game of lineage 2 is castle siege / territory / pvp hence why there's not much "content" r/t quest and such.
With castle siege/ territorial control / pvp comes drama.
With drama comes players who will do anything to get an advantage over others wither it’s from using third party programs or exploiting the ban button or putting up false information about other players thus making that player more prone to getting w/e regulatory move and in addition causing other miscellaneous problems.
Not to mention the misuse of GMs in-game. This game revolves around PVP and Drama within PVP and territory and Clans SO its HIGHLY unlikely it'll ever get boring.
Only few clans are legits on Luna. they are playing their best, most of them are nolifers and they have only 79+ lvl. Anyone who have 80+char with subs 80+ is bot bot bot bot bot (HB, varka, ketra,HS)..everybody can see them but GMs are "blind" to them . Kick out all corrupt GMs , which works for botters.BAN all botters forever. This is the only solution OMG
I actually agree with this. A level cap is effectively the end for a char. The grind for cash and lvls is what keeps ppl striving for a goal. Gear, the sub system, and pet lvl system help. Otherwise ppl will just fall off after they have reached 'END GAME'. It would be nice for items to come easier but IMO that would see more bored ppl as they lvl.
Bots do mess up the formula. They pwn in pvp, they flood mats to the market and take up xp spots for real players. I report bots daily but they are sturbbornly persistent in this game. I really couldnt recommend this game to anyone. I got my cousin and his friends into the game back in C1. Cousin left and his friends got bit by the bot bug :/ There really needs to be a better monitoring system. The latest reinstatement of the luna bot party doesnt improve things....
And pearlene, the suggestions for suing the bot companies are good but hiding behind the nick and pretending to speak for ur friend is lame. You botted and got caught. Live with it.
I actually agree with this. A level cap is effectively the end for a char. The grind for cash and lvls is what keeps ppl striving for a goal. Gear, the sub system, and pet lvl system help. Otherwise ppl will just fall off after they have reached 'END GAME'. It would be nice for items to come easier but IMO that would see more bored ppl as they lvl.
Bots do mess up the formula. They pwn in pvp, they flood mats to the market and take up xp spots for real players. I report bots daily but they are sturbbornly persistent in this game. I really couldnt recommend this game to anyone. I got my cousin and his friends into the game back in C1. Cousin left and his friends got bit by the bot bug :/ There really needs to be a better monitoring system. The latest reinstatement of the luna bot party doesnt improve things....
And pearlene, the suggestions for suing the bot companies are good but hiding behind the nick and pretending to speak for ur friend is lame. You botted and got caught. Live with it.
And how would you know if pearlene was a bot or not? Where you even there when the incident took place? If so than your obviously a GM hiding under a player account which is something you shouldn't be doing and you just validated pearlene's case about how corrupt GMs are and how they support Specific individuals in game and help them advance secretively
Or your just a naive player who doesn't see the truth behind all of it and you believe that every resolution a GM makes is a correct one.
Again a GM is only human, there's always room for error. But hiding and denying you where right to ban a player doesn't help anyone at the end of day.
...Pearlene was using a G15 keyboard and a nostromo n52te and was playing live the whole time. A GM was purposely porting players in her party all over the place, however pearlene didn't know it was a GM so she asked them if they where getting glitched and/or lagging. During that time the GM didn't not make any conversation what’s so ever to verify that they're all there playing live. Pearlene Silent moved to avoid getting aggro during the glitch/lag (which the gm was purposely doing) and had everyone soe out because she had class to go to in a few hours. From what I was told after she came back she was banned.
Tell me how is this player a bot when the player knows exactly what was going on at the time.
Pearlene "I soed out and went to the warehouse and deposited items. After I was done GM replied to my petition with an automated response. I believe it was GM Harvey who I was talking to. In total I sent three petitions out to them while I was xp'ing with my group. I think the other GM was Katherine, I don't know exactly since its been 3-4 days now..."
Every single day you may go On-line with your GM characters to this 5 locations ( Varka, Hot Springs, Wall of Agros, Imperial Tomb, Hellbound ). You will see here locations full of PTs of characters, whare all 9 ppl targeting one mob in the same second in the time of 24/7. Isn´t that strange ?
Common NC, after you Un-BAN group of BOTs, thats right time and last chance to do somethink with that. Take your inspiration from World of Warcraft, they made it and now this are the best.
I am on of the 5 CLan Leaders of 5 last large legit Clans in Luna server and I know very good, that legit ppl are mass-quiting Lineage 2 at this moment. This is the last chance to save Lineage 2, you have to do somethink. We don´t want to leave this game, but if you won´t start fighting with L2 Walker, we´ll have to.
Yours faithfully
WhisperingStaff
Luna legit player
Every single day you may go On-line with your GM characters to this 5 locations ( Varka, Hot Springs, Wall of Agros, Imperial Tomb, Hellbound ). You will see here locations full of PTs of characters, whare all 9 ppl targeting one mob in the same second in the time of 24/7. Isn´t that strange ?
Common NC, after you Un-BAN group of BOTs, thats right time and last chance to do somethink with that. Take your inspiration from World of Warcraft, they made it and now this are the best.
I am on of the 5 CLan Leaders of 5 last large legit Clans in Luna server and I know very good, that legit ppl are mass-quiting Lineage 2 at this moment. This is the last chance to save Lineage 2, you have to do somethink. We don´t want to leave this game, but if you won´t start fighting with L2 Walker, we´ll have to.
Yours faithfully
WhisperingStaff
Luna legit player
There are 2 major bot programs out there
(A) Superman
(B) ********
Both need to get taken down. (feel free to add more if I miss anything)
Yea they can't tell whos a bot yet anyone after lvl 40 or so can spot a bot in seconds it becomes a special skill playing lineage 2 I can spot bots on other games now with ease
So I guess GM's don't play the game often or at all
In an effort to give all players a voice on the forum, please use this forum in regards to the ongoing discussion with the recent banning and general bot discussion. This is a thread based on the comments found in the below thread:
We want players to have a voice and to have a central place to do so. That being said, any further posts outside of this thread on this topic will be locked and deleted without warning and any posters who open these threads can be subject to disciplinary action up to and including a temporary ban from the forums.
Please keep all posts constructive and keep accusations and flames to yourself. This is an open forum where I hope we can have a great discussion without it devolving into a flame war. If that happens the thread will be locked. Keep it clean folks.
Thanks,
-Kinslon
This is Thread is a Joke right ?
after 4 years u come to this board and finally admit that cheater have won ?
tails between legs " sry customers we r powerless the botter/farmer community is too powerful"
"but hey we greatly take ur money FOR NO SUPPORT"
i know why iam still waiting that Darkfall implements direct debit
sry but u dare to make this thread and ask for opinions ? i would laugh so hard at u in rl
u sir failed hard doing ur job that all no opinion needed (btw this is no flame at all cause look on ur servers full with cheaters and then look into the customer eyes and say we actually do something)
btw:
do u think u really work hard to get rid of the cheaters ?
and in addition to that what do ppl think about aion when nc soft cares so much for older games ?
Don't use the names of known bot programs, its already against the boards code of conduct.
Lol free advertisement? Its known by word that's there advertisement.
Besides the Associate producer wants to "hear" our voice giving BS answers like those random website you just pulled out of your === doesn't help.
NCSoft shouldn't sue 3rd party software developers--they should sue (for civil damages) the actual players who use them! Every time.
It would take only the first successful lawsuit where "little Bobby's" mommy and daddy had to pay a few thousand (or 10's of thousands) of dollars in damages plus legal fees to NCSoft and botting would have a whole new level of risk (lmao)!
I'm not a lawyer but it would seem NCSoft could demonstrate that "little Bobby's" EULA violation negatively impacted their game and their player population, let alone their reputation--it would seem those sorts of things would qualify as "damages" to NCSoft. Certainly the company would have standing....
Any lawyers care to comment? Could NCSoft sue players directly for 3rd party program use?
NCSoft shouldn't sue 3rd party software developers--they should sue (for civil damages) the actual players who use them! Every time.
It would take only the first successful lawsuit where "little Bobby's" mommy and daddy had to pay a few thousand (or 10's of thousands) of dollars in damages plus legal fees to NCSoft and botting would have a whole new level of risk (lmao)!
I'm not a lawyer but it would seem NCSoft could demonstrate that "little Bobby's" EULA violation negatively impacted their game and their player population, let alone their reputation--it would seem those sorts of things would qualify as "damages" to NCSoft. Certainly the company would have standing....
Any lawyers care to comment? Could NCSoft sue players directly for 3rd party program use?
and how would you prove that? That's a Hit/miss scenario where NCsoft lawsuit can backfire.
-btw-
I have friends who are already lawyers and are always willing to give advice on the actions that should be taken
and how would you prove that? That's a Hit/miss scenario where NCsoft lawsuit can backfire.
-btw-
I have friends who are already lawyers and are always willing to give advice on the actions that should be taken
hold on a second, are you saying NCSoft can NEVER prove someone is botting? Then you sir, are a fool.
They absolutely DO have proof--100% in most cases. And those are the cases where I'm saying they should sue the player in court for civil damages (supposing of course that such a thing is possible--I wouldn't know).
You and others can't have it both ways you know. You can't ask them to "GET RID OF BOTS!" 400,000,000,000 times and then when your buddies get caught say the GM's should not have acted. Nor can you say they are somehow always wrong because they reversed one case on Luna.
Nobody here knows the #'s of successfully banned accounts. I'd guess it's thousands per month (just a guess). If that's the case, these GM's are batting about .950 then--which is pretty good.
The short version here is "if you cheat, eventually they'll catch you"....if somehow they catch you and have to reverse it on a technicality but you keep cheating--they'll eventually catch you again.
You're a big one on the law, SC450--well even the police screw up. And we don't always take their guns and throw them off the force. Here in Pittsburgh there was just a stink about an officer who shot a guy--the same officer who a couple of years ago "mistakenly" shot a 12 year old car jacker to death (which the city just settled a case for 6 million to the child's family).
That one officer shouldn't have (imo) still had a gun and been on the force--but whether he was or not is not an indictment of all the officers on the Pittsburgh police force....3 of whom were just shot to death answering a call for a domestic disturbance.
Life has taught me that saying "always" and being narrow minded generally falls short of reality.
The GMs in this game are doing their jobs. Perfectly? Probably no more perfectly than you do yours or you do your schoolwork....no more perfectly than I do my job.
I run an 18 million dollar per year healthcare company and am responsible for hundreds of patients and about 150 employees--though I'd like to say I'm "perfect" in my decision just to make a point, I couldn't say that I'm even close to perfect and keep a straight face. I'm good. I try hard. I learn fast. I try to follow rules, policies, and to be consistent. I'm still "wrong" (in whatever) some of the time. Everyone is. I've even had court cases reverse my decisions about employees (thankfully only once)--that doesn't mean I suck at HR issues. Considering I make dozens of employee decisions a day--it probably shows I'm doing fairly well.
Get off the GM's. I'm not a fan of theirs but enough is enough.
hold on a second, are you saying NCSoft can NEVER prove someone is botting? Then you sir, are a fool.
They absolutely DO have proof--100% in most cases. And those are the cases where I'm saying they should sue the player in court for civil damages (supposing of course that such a thing is possible--I wouldn't know).
You and others can't have it both ways you know. You can't ask them to "GET RID OF BOTS!" 400,000,000,000 times and then when your buddies get caught say the GM's should not have acted. Nor can you say they are somehow always wrong because they reversed one case on Luna.
Nobody here knows the #'s of successfully banned accounts. I'd guess it's thousands per month (just a guess). If that's the case, these GM's are batting about .950 then--which is pretty good.
The short version here is "if you cheat, eventually they'll catch you"....if somehow they catch you and have to reverse it on a technicality but you keep cheating--they'll eventually catch you again.
You're a big one on the law, SC450--well even the police screw up. And we don't always take their guns and throw them off the force. Here in Pittsburgh there was just a stink about an officer who shot a guy--the same officer who a couple of years ago "mistakenly" shot a 12 year old car jacker to death (which the city just settled a case for 6 million to the child's family).
That one officer shouldn't have (imo) still had a gun and been on the force--but whether he was or not is not an indictment of all the officers on the Pittsburgh police force....3 of whom were just shot to death answering a call for a domestic disturbance.
Life has taught me that saying "always" and being narrow minded generally falls short of reality.
The GMs in this game are doing their jobs. Perfectly? Probably no more perfectly than you do yours or you do your schoolwork....no more perfectly than I do my job.
I run an 18 million dollar per year healthcare company and am responsible for hundreds of patients and about 150 employees--though I'd like to say I'm "perfect" in my decision just to make a point, I couldn't say that I'm even close to perfect and keep a straight face. I'm good. I try hard. I learn fast. I try to follow rules, policies, and to be consistent. I'm still "wrong" (in whatever) some of the time. Everyone is. I've even had court cases reverse my decisions about employees (thankfully only once)--that doesn't mean I suck at HR issues. Considering I make dozens of employee decisions a day--it probably shows I'm doing fairly well.
Get off the GM's. I'm not a fan of theirs but enough is enough.
In my job when a employee is very incompetant he lost his job, so the 9 april 2009 someone in ncsoft have did a very incompetant work :)
hold on a second, are you saying NCSoft can NEVER prove someone is botting? Then you sir, are a fool.
They absolutely DO have proof--100% in most cases. And those are the cases where I'm saying they should sue the player in court for civil damages
Nobody here knows the #'s of successfully banned accounts. I'd guess it's thousands per month (just a guess). If that's the case, these GM's are batting about .950 then--which is pretty good.
The short version here is "if you cheat, eventually they'll catch you"....if somehow they catch you and have to reverse it on a technicality but you keep cheating--they'll eventually catch you again.
You're a big one on the law, SC450
The GMs in this game are doing their jobs. Perfectly? Probably no more perfectly than you do yours or you do your schoolwork....no more perfectly than I do my job.
I run an 18 million dollar per year healthcare company and am responsible for hundreds of patients and about 150 employees--though I'd like to say I'm "perfect" in my decision just to make a point, I couldn't say that I'm even close to perfect and keep a straight face. I'm good. I try hard. I learn fast. I try to follow rules, policies, and to be consistent. I'm still "wrong" (in whatever) some of the time. Everyone is. I've even had court cases reverse my decisions about employees (thankfully only once)--that doesn't mean I suck at HR issues. Considering I make dozens of employee decisions a day--it probably shows I'm doing fairly well.
Get off the GM's. I'm not a fan of theirs but enough is enough.
No I’m not saying “GMs” can NEVER prove someone is botting. However with the “third party program” that states “undetectable” how else are you to decided if that player is legit or not.
There 2 means of finding out that he/she is using a third party device:
(1) Is to deliberately invade the person(s) privacy. And if NcSoft where to take a GM’s (1) evidence and use it against that person and it stated that GM had to break through firewalls to access another person account (Hacking if you will) then this is where the “backfire” takes place. That evidence is void and the player can sue for invasion of privacy. Hence why I said to engage in filing a lawsuit Directly at the source of all the problems, third party programs.
(2)The more legit means of getting evidence is by means of communication. (2) If he/she (the player) doesn’t respond while actively engaging in multiple “moves” then that player is obviously a bot. Other than that what other proof is there? Oh my 4 year old daughter/son is playing my game that’s why I didn’t respond? No, you’re liable for everything that goes on your account. Oh or maybe you’ll say my kid doesn’t have hands she uses a pen in her mouth to type that’s why it took forever to respond back. Though sounds reasonable how do you explain the multiple moves that player is doing?
Regardless when gathering information you have to follow protocol. When a GM takes a position they have to follow rules and procedures, much like anyone who gets employed into a job. If you don’t follow those rules and procedure and you enact a direct move against someone then how creditable is your “move?” It’s not, because you didn’t follow standard protocol/procedure to validate that he/she is in direct violation of the EULA or w/e for that matter.
That’s nice you run a “18 Million Dollar a day Healthcare company,” you mind telling us the name? Do you have the License # to go with that? You must think of yourself as someone so credible and pristine because you boastfully state “18 Million Dollar a day Healthcare Company.” But the issue isn’t how great you are and how you operate your business it’s about the procedures that the GMs took against others and failed to log the information properly, if not at all.
The short version here is "if you cheat, eventually they'll catch you"....if somehow they catch you and have to reverse it on a technicality but you keep cheating--they'll eventually catch you again.
Couldn’t agree more however, you fail to mention the other half (I’ll make it as simple as possible):
(A) Player gets banned being legit – They reverse it due to technicality or for w/e reason - Player plays legit GM re-evaluates you following procedures (no ban).
(B) Player gets banned for not being legit - They reverse it due to technicality or for w/e reason – Player plays again, because he/she is fearful of a ban they change their ways and begin playing “legit” GM re-evaluates you following procedures (no ban).
(C) Player gets banned for not being legit – They reverse it due to technicality or for w/e reason – Player plays again and GM follows protocol and catches the player and bans them – Player attempts to try the “oppose the ban” but the GM follows up with Evidence explaining everything in great detail and how the GM has attempted to converse with you at many times while you were doing multiple “moves.” Video, Log of chats, etc where given to the account holder as proof that the GM followed procedure.
(D) Player gets banned being legit – They reverse it due to technicality or for w/e reason Player decides to use third-party because player doesn’t feel like the GMs care if player is legit or not – Player plays again and GM follows protocol and catches the player and then bans them - Player attempts to try the “oppose the ban” and/or just give up on it GM follows up with Evidence explaining everything in great detail and how the GM has attempted to converse with you at many times while you were doing multiple “moves.” Video, Log of chats, etc where given to the account holder as proof that the GM followed procedure.
I find it funny how you say you run an 18 Million Dollar a day Healthcare company and you don’t know all the legal ramifications that come with it. If you fail to follow procedure your basically open the door for lawsuits, do you understand that? Does your company follow procedures set forth by the State/Country? Personally if I was you I’d be on the GMs case for not following procedures because of fear Ncsoft will get slapped with a lawsuit and then you’d have to pay [X] amount of cash. With that being said “No one is perfect” as stated before and you as well:
I'm good. I try hard. I learn fast. I try to follow rules, policies, and to be consistent. I'm still "wrong" (in whatever) some of the time. Everyone is. I've even had court cases reverse my decisions about employees (thankfully only once)--that doesn't mean I suck at HR issues. Considering I make dozens of employee decisions a day--it probably shows I'm doing fairly well. The GMs in this game are doing their jobs. Perfectly? Probably no more perfectly than you do yours or you do your schoolwork....no more perfectly than I do my job.
FYI I’m a nurse and I find it insulting you’d label me as a “kid” or insinuate for that matter. But regardless I’m just going to ignore it because it has nothing to do with the point I’m trying to make.
As I mentioned I’m a Nurse and as nurse I have to do my job perfectly, If I wasn’t doing my job perfectly I would get fired because I’m dealing with people’s lives. In addition I handle medications and make sure they’re the right dosage otherwise I might kill the patient. If I kill the patient because I gave the patient an overdose or something worst to that degree you’d better believe the hospital can get sued or me. I work for Florida Hospital @ Orlando btw and I’m proud of it, are you proud to even mention your company name? I can elaborate more on what I do but I’ll save it for when you’re ready to flame my job or insult me some more.
Now is a GM’s job any different from mine? My job requires me to follow protocols and procedures. That should be the same for a GM especially when you’re representing your company and working with consumers there’s really no difference. Well okay, the only difference between mine and a GM is life or death. But if you where to take out that factor they are both the same.
Get off the GM's. I'm not a fan of theirs but enough is enough.
In addition just because you’re a 2nd rate at business management doesn’t mean you have to lower the bar for them, their standards are already low enough as is. Have you seen the many things they’re not regulating in the server? Seriously I’m astonished you’d defend a GM and write them as “Satisfactory."
As for being a nurse--that just makes me laugh. You do your job 100% all the time--what a joke.
I had my nursing license while you were still sucking at your mommies *** and it will be a cold day in hell before you tell me anything about nursing or healthcare.
As for your vaunted perfection--we both know that's a crock.
I'm done with this. You're a tool and evidently have the reading comprehension of a 6 year old.
God help anyone who gets you for a nurse! lmao.....
One thing I know for sure--the GM's are better at their job than you are at understanding writing!
Turns out SC that you're mostly just an idiot. ~ Flame Alert?
As for being a nurse--that just makes me laugh. You do your job 100% all the time--what a joke. ~ More Flaming?
I had my nursing license while you were still sucking at your mommies *** and it will be a cold day in hell before you tell me anything about nursing or healthcare. ~ More Flaming?
I'm done with this. You're a tool and evidently have the reading comprehension of a 6 year old. ~ More Flaming?
God help anyone who gets you for a nurse! lmao..... ~ More Flaming?
One thing I know for sure--the GM's are better at their job than you are at understanding writing!
You obviously can't read nor understand/comprehend the real I'm point I'm stating so you have to resort to flaming.
Please keep all posts constructive and keep accusations and flames to yourself. This is an open forum where I hope we can have a great discussion without it devolving into a flame war. If that happens the thread will be locked. Keep it clean folks.
Thanks,
-Kinslon
Pretty sad really, are you purposely just trying to flame so you can have Kinslon shut this thread down? Oh wait you must be a tool for a GM? Btw whats the name of the company you run and License #, You failed to mention it in your ranting?
i just wanted to add that the problem does not exist just on Luna. It is throughout the game on all servers.
People are saying the GMs made a mistake (whether intentional or not). We all make mistakes its just that there haven't been any GMs for what 4 years (eventhough we have paid for them in our monthly fee)
Its been stated that NC West doesn't give a ***** about their customers....how many times do they have to prove it until we believe.
If anybody that plays legit goes and plays Aion then they deserve what they get afaic. If today they banned all the cheating scum i wouldn't play another NC game if they paid me the monthly fee.
A GM made a mistake.. they had no other option to unban.
It's a good thing they are making these checks/etc.. so that legits may be avoided.
Server logs are much better, true...
You have to answer me one thing though bro.
If there is compelling evidence that they botted 75% of their playtime and only played
25% of the time themselves, does that make em legit?
Its not really hard to find evidence against hardcore botters, if you just bother to log
into an account to check it out.
I am unsure about the extend of logs the server keeps, but if NCSoft would have any
interest in really fighting the bots, you can be sure its easily possible to see who gains
exp where.
There have been a big load of posts about how their level can not be legit.
Boards that are being read by the GM staff have enough posts where people talk about
how Luna is dominated by bots. Guess what guys, these posts were meant for discussion
among players, they are not made so GMs look at it and maybe ban someone. Its the
truth (from a certain point of view) that is being posted there and while its no evidence
per se, it should give you a direction to look into.
If you murder only 75% of the women you meet in dark streets at night, your still a
murderer. If you bot only 75% of the time your logged in, you still deserve a ban.
That they have been there once when the GMs checked them, does not make em
worthy of an unban, it just proves how seldomly the GMs check.
You obviously can't read nor understand/comprehend the real I'm point I'm stating so you have to resort to flaming.
Pretty sad really, are you purposely just trying to flame so you can have Kinslon shut this thread down? Oh wait you must be a tool for a GM? Btw whats the name of the company you run and License #, You failed to mention it in your ranting?
Tell ya what sport, let's skip all your little passive aggressive mind games. You pm me your address--turns out I come to Florida often. You and I can have this argument in person at your convenience.
See, I know you and your type. You are chronically offended and rather than man up, you screw with people annonymously--it gets your jollies off. I don't play those games. What say we meet up in Florida and get this off the forum.
Tell ya what sport, let's skip all your little passive aggressive mind games. You pm me your address--turns out I come to Florida often. You and I can have this argument in person at your convenience.
See, I know you and your type. You are chronically offended and rather than man up, you screw with people annonymously--it gets your jollies off. I don't play those games. What say we meet up in Florida and get this off the forum.
Anytime sport.
Making threats now, Because your unwilling to be "open-minded?" It isn't me who is offended it is you (as noticeable from your flaming and your threats). If I offend you this much then I just proven my case and no matter how much you rant, slander, and make threats against my life or others (this is probably the same model you follow when you operate your business) in the end you will still fail to prove me wrong. So good game I hope the GM/Moderator is willing to ban you now because you just failed to uphold the rules of conduct regardless of whether your defending them or not:
[RULES OF CONDUCT]
3. You may not use sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive language.
Cited: http://www.lineage2.com/legal/rules.html
See at this point in time notice how I handled this, I gave the person a "warning" telling him to lay off. He refuses to adhere to my warning and keeps repeating the same mistake. At this point in time, (if I was the GM/Moderator) I will suspend him. After suspension if he still breeches EULA agreement 3rd time around (this includes warning, suspension) its a ban. He can refute and debate he was banned wrongly but with the evidence displayed on thread and the multiple witnesses on hand, how likely is it going to be overturned. (NOT LIKELY - EVER)
But they're probably not going to because point in case they are doing a Half "butt" Job.
It was proven already that they do make mistakes. Hence why I keep emphasizing the following:
(A) Re-Evaluate ALL GMs competency level in handling there job.
(B) Review ALL Policy and Procedures and Protocols
-IF not A or B-
(C) Fire all the GMs and Re-hire New Ones.
(D) Re-Evaluate ALL GMs and verify (wither it be through contract or something to that nature) that they are in no way shape or form Helping Individuals or specific individuals in-game to advance. In addition Play a Ncsoft game which they're moderating.
-IF not willing to do any of A-D or Your willing to take the initiative-
(F) File a Lawsuit Against ******** + Superman
This is the plan I've been emphasizing since day one of the thread. (only now its more refined)
I want to see a GM or Ncsoft representive respond to this topic, I'm sure we all do - if this is an actual discussion then it should be discussed w/ Ncsoft and the GM's not just the members playing.
It's not dumb luck that WoW has 60+% of the MMO market clutched in their fist, they're doing something right... follow their example.
I would like to see more bannings with less concrete evidence. It's not hard to tell when someone is using a bot program. The undeniable proof you look for is not necessary.
What's more is that you should concentrate on the player bots first before the farmer bots, even if at times they are hard to differentiate.
How dare you unban some 9*85 bots though. When the majority of the server is 75-78+, high bots being 81+, and suddenly there are lv 85 players.. let's not fool ourselves here.
I would like to see more bannings with less concrete evidence. It's not hard to tell when someone is using a bot program. The undeniable proof you look for is not necessary.
What's more is that you should concentrate on the player bots first before the farmer bots, even if at times they are hard to differentiate.
How dare you unban some 9*85 bots though. When the majority of the server is 75-78+, high bots being 81+, and suddenly there are lv 85 players.. let's not fool ourselves here.
I'm sure if oXo was the GM he'd ban everyone that looked like a bot and not even bother log the information that makes him/her a bot and state someone told me so I banned it. At the end of the day you'll get a call from the higher ups regarding all the complaints and threats of lawsuit and you would instantly be fired because you are destroying the company "NCsoft" and killing the income. Because all in all your fighting over pixels the real deal here is the money and the time players invest in the game to only get the rug slipped right under them (We call that customer trust).
Ummm... I say let the banned account go ahead and try thier lawsuits... trust me, in my line of work, we get companies filing lawsuits all the time - in 4 years, I have not lost one yet, but we have our ducks in order (now unless someone from Congress comes in, then I'm f'd everytime).
OT --- Drak calm down, SC is baiting you and you fell for it.
NC can NOT ban anyone for any reason at any time. What is happening as far as I can gather is that "legit" bannings have not increased, vocalization has. Do i know anything other than what has been posted here on the Luna situation? No, I don't play that server. The situation is cause for concern on my server Aria as well as the rest of the servers.
GMs made a mistake, have probably made more than one, but this was so publicized it has raised an outcry and rightly so. I think the best thing to come out of this has been the ability to discuss the situation and others like it on the forums. We have been "kept in the dark" about bannings. This has caused confusion and anger with the customer base. Some more than others. I rarely post on the forums but this got my attention. It affects us all.
I sincerely hope NCsoft and the GMs reading this topic and others take heart and be more mindful of protocols and procedures. Botting is easy to detect. I see them all the time. Anyone that has played for a while can. Do I need proof they are botting? No, Im not an NC employee. GMs do need proof. Any legit bannings going on are either a gross mistake or failure to follow procedures. Unlegit bannings are really the same problem. I don;t know how much proof or how long a GM is required to log in order to do a banning. I always assumed it was a length of time, however that doesnt seem to be the case on all the bannings. There is an inconsistency that needs to be addressed immediately by NCsoft. Do i expect results overnight? No , of course not, Im not that unreasonable no matter what you may have heard. However results are expected.
guys, i just read all this threads about us, i dont want to ask all my 800 in game friends to start make more threads/posts/problems/work for gm's. We got banned when WHOLE group was live, i already write what was happens multiple times
diabolic got d/c (its happens quite alot at russian internet), we was running from mobs and trying to survive, when he login we continue exp, after it 4 our supports got d/c and cannot log in game (some strange) we ask bd to give us shadow dance and start move to safe place, where everyone get d/c and just banned...
mass petitions is just a method to ask GM's to make a detailed investinagion.
I'm tired to read many posts about we are bots, when NOONE dont see us even 1 time botting, thats just ridiculous.
p.s. i'm 84, with 75 subs :)
Luna has been running for less than 1 year and you're 84 with 75 sub already. No botting??? lol
To put things into perspective:
1-79 you need 2.1B XP
1-84 you need 15.5B xp.
(1-85 you need 20B xp!)
It's such a ridiculous amount of xp that no one can get that high, on a less than a 1 year old server, without some serious cheating.
I don't know what more evidence you GMs need. To everyone else it looks like you just pardoned the most blatant botters ever. If you continue to let them go free you have lost all credibility in this matter.
The reason a GM makes an "OFFICIAL" thread about anything is so they never have to go back and look at it again. Think of it as a ghetto for your thoughts. Now that they have all the troublemakers rounded up here, they can just delete any new incendiary threads based on their titles and never have to be bothered by your grievances again.
And don't bother constantly posting new threads over and over again to force them to listen to your complaints. They'll just ban you from the forum.
Remember, NCSoft does not guarantee your quiet enjoyment of the game. It's in the EULA, feel free to check it out.
A GM made a mistake.. they had no other option to unban.
It's a good thing they are making these checks/etc.. so that legits may be avoided.
Server logs are much better, true...
Do you have account in luna server ??
Can you get 20 billions xp in 1 year without cheat ??
Well i will explain the situation, this guys were in einheit clan, 1 day they left this clan and started to kill einheit members, 2 weeks after they were banned and everyone think in luna than the leader of einheit clan have mass petition against them, so 2 conclusion
They are innocent and gm have did a botch work
They are guilty and gm have did a botch work the 9 april 2009
If you dont have account in luna how you can know more about luna than me ??
I don't know, I don't need to and it's totally irrelevant.
"In this case the issue was reviewed and all of the evidence we needed was not present for the review. Since the missing evidence was not recorded and could only be recalled verbally we had no choice but to release the accounts".
To me this is crystal clear: 10 pieces of evidence were required and they only had 9. To err is human and I hope they do it right next time.
Accept it and move on or don't accept it and fume for the next six months or quit game.
Because the evidence isn't there, they were not botting?
No.. Thats not the truth. They were botting, and the evidence was there, but it was simply not recorded by GM in the log for the ban, so by a stroke of ******* genious NC decides to unban them.
Its like a trial that went into mistrial because of some peice of circumstancial evidence.. It doesn't make the defendant any less guilty, it just means that the trial went wrong.
I don't know, I don't need to and it's totally irrelevant.
"In this case the issue was reviewed and all of the evidence we needed was not present for the review. Since the missing evidence was not recorded and could only be recalled verbally we had no choice but to release the accounts".
To me this is crystal clear: 10 pieces of evidence were required and they only had 9. To err is human and I hope they do it right next time.
Accept it and move on or don't accept it and fume for the next six months or quit game.
Is your problem if you are naive and than you love swindle to be had
I only use my right of customer to protest against the incompetence of ncsoft :)
Is your problem if you are naive
Your problem is that your (righteous) anger blinds you to the issue at hand. In my opinion yes, they are cheaters of the worst kind and yes, they should be banned. But it's not my opinion that decides this and it's not your opinion either.
It's as Jayy wrote above, consider this a mistrial. The "police" (=GM Ban) didn't use the correct procedures, so the "judge" (=GM Review) has no other option than to follow the "law" (=company regulations) and let the "criminals" (=botters) go.
It is sad but happens in real life too, where it hurts a lot more.
Hopefully the GMs have learned something from this mess :(
Your problem is that your (righteous) anger blinds you to the issue at hand. In my opinion yes, they are cheaters of the worst kind and yes, they should be banned. But it's not my opinion that decides this and it's not your opinion either.
After what happened the 9 april 2009 how i can trust ncsoft again ??
It is no the first incident, i think than this forum have big archives about the cheaters in L2 NA and the kindness of ncsoft with them, can you say me since how many time the cheaters rule in the world of lineage 2 ??
And wathever what is the problem for you than i use my right of customer to protest against the incompetence of L2 NA ??
the mistrial thing was more of a comment to you... Meaning that it wasn't right for NC to unban them.
The fact is that there was no trial. They were botting and they got caught. Then all of a sudden 100s of people start protesting about the ban (many of whom are botters also) and then spam looks in the ban logs, GOT the evidence by talking to the banning gm, but doesn't see the evidence.. Then decides to unban them. What happened to once banned, your account was suspended permanently with no chance for appeal???
the mistrial thing was more of a comment to you... Meaning that it wasn't right for NC to unban them.
Spam's message explains the situation and I won't put words in his mouth or try to interpret what goes on among the GMs.
As I understand it, they were botting and they got caught but some bureaucratic action was not done in the proper way. A form wasn't filled, a screenshot wasn't taken, a video wasn't recorded, I don't know.
The result is that some NC employee had no other option than to let them go, because if someone from Korea came over to do an assessment, the employee who hadn't followed the (amazingly inefficient and irrelevant to the NCNA market) company procedures to the last iota could lose his job.
That's how I interpret his message. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he lied. Maybe he is in league with the cheaters and this is all an elaborate scheme to milk naive customers like me from their hard earned cash. Anyone can draw their own conclusions and act as a responsible and mature customer.
I just don't think the most constructive way forward right now is to scream our anger at the universe and ask that we hang the GMs upside down over a roasting fire. That pretty much accomplishes nothing.
regardless of whatever the circumstances were, once an account is banned there should be absolutely no option of bringing it back as far as im concerned. To have it publicly aired like this one only sends out the wrong message, a message being screamed by someone through a megaphone, apparently.
In other posts, spam had mentioned that he began looking into the situation because of all the protest. It was then that he found the ban had not been completely done, and found some kind of circumstantial peice of evidence, something about they were speaking in game or something (which is something that any bot can easily do, reply to other players or gms, or even periodically say something out of the blue) and found that probably cause to unban the accounts.
All I'm saying is that in that situation, where they have already been found guilty of botting once, its no longer innocent until proven otherwise. Its guilty and there has to be a **** good reason to unban you, and that just wasn't good enough. For me, or hundreds of other players apparently..
regardless of whatever the circumstances were, once an account is banned there should be absolutely no option of bringing it back as far as im concerned. To have it publicly aired like this one only sends out the wrong message, a message being screamed by someone through a megaphone, apparently.
In other posts, spam had mentioned that he began looking into the situation because of all the protest. It was then that he found the ban had not been completely done, and found some kind of circumstantial peice of evidence, something about they were speaking in game or something (which is something that any bot can easily do, reply to other players or gms, or even periodically say something out of the blue) and found that probably cause to unban the accounts.
All I'm saying is that in that situation, where they have already been found guilty of botting once, its no longer innocent until proven otherwise. Its guilty and there has to be a **** good reason to unban you, and that just wasn't good enough. For me, or hundreds of other players apparently..
Thats **** straigth.
The reason to unbanned was just not right at all. Because the message they just sent is "its ok to bot if you are not afk, if you can reply and say hi, we are unable to ban you, because you will pass the so called test." And dont forget we are humans, we GMs and we make mistakes, so we may ban legit people too... in our way out.
The only reason they review that ban case, was because of the mass protest, whatever the GM want to admit it or not.
I know Spam reads that other site, and even plays in game. They have posted videos on the other forums showing them using walker in game, couldn't they just use that as proof without doing anything in game?
I just do not get it, nothing proves it more then me then when someone brags about botting out in the open, even though its on a very popular non offical forum, they are not trying to hide it because they are challeging SPAM and the other head GMS to try and ban them.
I'm sure if oXo was the GM he'd ban everyone that looked like a bot and not even bother log the information that makes him/her a bot and state someone told me so I banned it. At the end of the day you'll get a call from the higher ups regarding all the complaints and threats of lawsuit and you would instantly be fired because you are destroying the company "NCsoft" and killing the income. Because all in all your fighting over pixels the real deal here is the money and the time players invest in the game to only get the rug slipped right under them (We call that customer trust).
I understand that since you don't know me, you are very skeptical of my judgment. However it's very easy to recognize trains based on their movement patterns as well as their responses to actions/events.
I read Spam's message here and I have to admit that it wasn't a very well thought out post. Essentially what he's saying is that a bunch of level 84'ish people will not be botting anymore now that they know we're on to them.
They don't need to bot anymore, they're already top of the food chain and they got there illegally. The only possible way this could hurt them is if you raise the game levels up to level 100. Then they may be forced to level up the old fashioned way, but in the meantime they will enjoy whatever superiority they've gleaned through cheating because you'll be watching everyone else like hawks.
That's one of the big problems with this game, they don't penalize people that benefit from exploits, they just prevent others from benefitting from the same exploits. Like that enchantment exploit that was going around. On Sayha just about everyone in Nova turned up with +ridculous S-grade weapons. Do you think they removed these weapons when the exploit was found? NOPE. They just stopped anyone else from being able to cheat and have uber-weapons like them. For some reason it appears that GM's don't like to make decisions for the good of the gaming community.
At this moment i have the feeling they will let it bleed too death.
This makes me sad, because atm i feel like we not of any interest of ncsoft, and i really don't understand why noone of the staff post a reaction.
If NC soft dont want too react be honest then too, and admit it.
Or is ncsoft waiting that this problem becomes bigger and more people leaving and all mmo forums talking about it?
They gave their official response already. What more do you want? Just because you choose to keep making an issue out of it doesn't mean they should sprint here and try to keep all the forum warriors happy.
It would be kinda nice to see that someone from NCSoft has looked at this thread since it was created...
Just sayin'
------
From the EULA (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/legal/user-agreements/lineage-2-user-agreement.html):
NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Account ID or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right or (3) delete any content published on any electronic boards without notice.
...
NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Character Name or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right.
...
NC Interactive reserves the right to use any means necessary, including those in section 4(j) to identify and remove Former Members.
(j) Related Accounts. If NC Interactive terminates an Account, NC Interactive may terminate any other Accounts that share the same member name, phone number, email address, postal address, Internet Protocol address, or credit card number with the terminated Account.
and the grandaddy of them all...
14. Termination
(a) NC Interactive reserves the right to suspend or terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of Lineage II as described in the Rules of Conduct. Should NC Interactive decide to suspend or terminate this Agreement with a User under any circumstances, the User will lose access to your Account for the balance of any prepaid period without any refund.
Seems to me that this talk about "proof" is a red herring. Given the bolded part of the EULA snippets above...
So... in my humble opinion, the reasons for the "unbanning" of the "Luna 9" are totally bogus and an outright falsehood on the part of NCSoft. "in our sole discretion" does not mean "beyond a shadow of a doubt", is completely defensible in law (sorry to those of you thinking the there is a legal recourse for banned players) and banning these "people" is completely justified based on the "sole discretion" of the GM.
I'm not going to say anything inflaming here so that the forum-lawyers can dismiss the entire post by pointing to one problem or opinion as being over the top.
I sincerely hope that NCSoft will answer this post or at least acknowledge that they have read it.
LoL,
all this is just a joke. Luna nr.1 botters group got unbanned at the mmt when legits went happy because things seemed to move...
Why?
Because:
There is NO WILL from NC SOFT to ban 3rd party users because of MONEY!! On LUNA, IQ60 GM must ban 100 botters in 1 hour, but why, if they PAY...?
Please see my customer complaint soon, where I will want to return my money I paid for this service for 6 months back.
And to see, what is NC SOFT service like, watch video at this link, where botter-PR0-HERO Silent shows off:
The NC Soft only cares about money and is in the pockets of the botters line is getting old fast. Heck, it was old when I got here.
It's also a fallacious argument. NC Soft gets more money banning botters than they would by allowing them to run free. Why? Simple: these people have to buy accounts to bot with. How many other people have 3-8 accounts and go out and buy another 3-8 accounts as soon as those accounts get banned?
So hold on. These guys mass petitioned/threatened to quit so that they could recieve back their accounts...(I guess the logical response would be) Why can't other's petition/threaten to quit if they don't remain banned?
Everybody keeps talking about how this effects the "community" as a whole. I don't think NC sees it that way because it hasn't been demonstrated. The forums serve as a place to get all that negative thought out and really keep you from making any rash decisions ie quit for reasons stated throughout these threads.
I bet if this was really so - that the community was/is indeed bothered by these events then they wouldn't have a problem, as a whole, to do somthing equal to that which was enough to give the accounts back...
In either case the community won't gather together in any such way and will remain powerless because they choose to come here and speak out rather than really do somthing about it.
I can't imagine that a community of players can't help NCSoft's GM's readjust their thinking on this by demonstrating their resolve to show that NC stands to lose more money if they don't act rather than allowing things like this to occur.
Prehaps a mass petition on a more grandeur scale than that which was used to get the accounts back could be used to keep the accounts banned. Who knows :)
I think we all know that, despite NC's efforts, there will always be folks that bot.
Obviously, GameGuard is not working. If it was working properly, there would not be bots all over the place.
Amusingly enough, on Sahya, I have noticed a sudden decline in bot activity. What caused this? Would you believe... because "Dusk" won? Dawn always wins, so the fact that Dusk won yesterday for the first time in quite a long whiles meant that the bots got shut out of the catacombs! WOOT!
Anyways, back onto topic...
Would it make sense to have a single BOT server, for the botters to use?
That way, hopefully, those people who feel the need to bot can do it someplace away from those who don't want to play legitimately. Of course, it would have to be such that people from other servers could transfer to the BOT server, but no characters from the BOT server can transfer to the other servers.
Oddly, I find the idea of a dedicated server, where unmanned AIs all frolic and play with each other, without a single human voice on, kind of amusing. Computers want to be entertained too, right? LOL.
Some computers run SETI-at-Home in the background. Now, we can have computers play Lineage2... not PEOPLE play Lineage2... COMPUTERS play Lineage2 amongst themselves. BWAHAHAHA!
---------------------
SweetKnight
P.S.
You know it is bad when I, a PVP/PVBot pacifist, get annoyed at a bot train (that runs up to and starts killing a mob I already was in combat with), that I actually help in killing the bots?
My friends were shocked that I actually did PVP/PVBot, because I try to avoid killing others as much as possible. Treat others as you would have them treat you, is my general outlook.
So, to the player on Sahya called "phixx", please stop botting... Or at the very least, stop your bot train from kill-stealing, or I swear, I will do everything I can to make your leveling as slow and agonizing as possible. (Buff the mobs you fight, train you, kill you directly, kill your bot buffers, leave a trail of 1 adena coins to run you off a cliff, overbuff you with useless buffs... (I hope you like extra breath-capacity)).
I don't like to PVP/PVBot, but your bot train is out of control.
Prehaps a mass petition on a more grandeur scale than that which was used to get the accounts back could be used to keep the accounts banned. Who knows :)
The problem is that the cheaters have now unloaded all the gear from the accounts. If they were rebanned the damage would be reduced to the inability to sell the actual toons. You saw all the gear the toons are being sold with..that was all gone until NC unbanned them.
That's why this whole thing stinks. One honest GM bans them...
Bots in catas,bots in pavel,bots in giant cave,bots on forsaiken plains,bots everywhere on luna.........
GM-what is that,a mythical being? Few have seen him.
Everybody who made mistake and choosed Luna simply transfer to Teon like i did.There is plenty of real players here,and very little space 4 bots.
A cyclist wins the first stages of Tour de France by an impossibly huge margin. At first, the judges disqualify him for cheating with a motorcycle, but later he is freed by the head judge because of lack of evidence.
Even though the cyclist finished the stages faster than humanly possible, the head judge let him keep 1st place because no judge actually saw him use a motorcycle. The cyclist is freed from suspicion and gets to keep 1st place.
The other race participants are now in uproar because they have witnessed the cyclist cheating with the motorcycle. They also know that with the time advantage the cheater now has he will easily win the rest of the competition. All the time, effort and money they have put into the competition feels wasted.
A cyclist wins the first stages of Tour de France by an impossibly huge margin. At first, the judges disqualify him for cheating with a motorcycle, but later he is freed by the head judge because of lack of evidence.
Even though the cyclist finished the stages faster than humanly possible, the head judge let him keep 1st place because no judge actually saw him use a motorcycle. The cyclist is freed from suspicion and gets to keep 1st place.
The other race participants are now in uproar because they have witnessed the cyclist cheating with the motorcycle. They also know that with the time advantage the cheater now has he will easily win the rest of the competition. All the time, effort and money they have put into the competition feels wasted.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
I am not sure how many people will remember but I made the following statement in a “Q&A with Omega” in October of last year.
We are continually re-evaluating and evolving the processes that we use to identify and ban bots. This is a very difficult task, as you know. However, I can assure you that this topic is always a priority for the team here and in Korea. We will continue to fight bots with everything we’ve got. There are a lot of things that happen in the background and while it sometimes might not be evident, we really are making concerted efforts to eradicate bots. The war on bots is just that – a war that we have to wage each and every day. But I can guarantee you that as long as bots exist, we will be doing all we can to get rid of them.
This was my promise to you: that I will be focusing more on battle with bots. Since then, I have had multiple meetings with the Dev team in Korea regarding this issue and we have improved our bot banning methods which have resulted in close to 20,000 account bans over the past 6 months. It may not seem like we are fighting bots as much as you would like for us to, but please know that we have been fighting with bots with all we have since day 1.
Rather than just saying “this is what we did the last 6 months, we are working, etc.” I want to say that we will put even more effort on battling bots in the future and upgrade the bot banning system to next level. I do understand that we need to put more attention to bots.
We have already made some changes to the current bot reporting button in upcoming update and I hope that this helps to make Lineage II a better place to play which is also one of our main goals.
The main BOT problem goes far beyond just Luna server...
I know that I am not the only customer that is frustrated to the point of madness that it continues in such a blatant fashion and very little is ever seen or seems to get done about it.
I have reached my limit and do not even bother logging in now, both my support accounts have expired and this one will at the end of the month. On the 28th I will have been playing L2 for 5 years but honestly GM's WTF is the point of continuing when someone can log in walker and outpace me 3 fold in 6 months.
Maybe if the GM's can show that real players are leaving NC Korea will give their permission for a full house cleaning, possibly even left NCWest file lawsuit against the makers of Walker and other cheat programs.
Clean up the bots, botters and cheaters and I'll be happy to continue my infinite grind to lvl 85.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
I am not sure how many people will remember but I made the following statement in a “Q&A with Omega” in October of last year.
This was my promise to you: that I will be focusing more on battle with bots. Since then, I have had multiple meetings with the Dev team in Korea regarding this issue and we have improved our bot banning methods which have resulted in close to 20,000 account bans over the past 6 months. It may not seem like we are fighting bots as much as you would like for us to, but please know that we have been fighting with bots with all we have since day 1.
Rather than just saying “this is what we did the last 6 months, we are working, etc.” I want to say that we will put even more effort on battling bots in the future and upgrade the bot banning system to next level. I do understand that we need to put more attention to bots.
We have already made some changes to the current bot reporting button in upcoming update and I hope that this helps to make Lineage II a better place to play which is also one of our main goals.
Thank u for ure answer, ofc this is not he answer we hoped for but its still a answer.
Too bad Luna is destroyed and that a company like ncsoft have too let it come this far.
Hello everyone,
I want to say that we will put even more effort on battling bots in the future and upgrade the bot banning system to next level. I do understand that we need to put more attention to bots.
Let's face it, you let a whole load of players bot all the way up to 84/85 with high 70s subs right under your noses and then you aren't even able to make the ban stick when you do actually get around to catching 'em. Its too late to talk about making changes.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
I am not sure how many people will remember but I made the following statement in a “Q&A with Omega” in October of last year.
This was my promise to you: that I will be focusing more on battle with bots. Since then, I have had multiple meetings with the Dev team in Korea regarding this issue and we have improved our bot banning methods which have resulted in close to 20,000 account bans over the past 6 months. It may not seem like we are fighting bots as much as you would like for us to, but please know that we have been fighting with bots with all we have since day 1.
Rather than just saying “this is what we did the last 6 months, we are working, etc.” I want to say that we will put even more effort on battling bots in the future and upgrade the bot banning system to next level. I do understand that we need to put more attention to bots.
We have already made some changes to the current bot reporting button in upcoming update and I hope that this helps to make Lineage II a better place to play which is also one of our main goals.
Thank you at least for some response.
You are writing about changes to the current bot reporting button. We strongly hope, that ,, new Bot reporting button " will be solved some way to help US, not to help Bots. Because if it´ll wokrs only like: ,, Target character + Use Bot reporgin button => It´ll make sanctions to character + nothing more, done, it´s over. " That´ll be realy hard for us, because bots, while they are not boting, will be reporting us. I already recived many menaces from bots, that me and my clanies will be ,, perma-concerned by button ". So I hope you´ll find resolution, which make, that will never hapens.
If you are allowed to give us any information about new system, please, give Us feedback.
for all the answers you could give you have selected those that makes you seem wrong. instead of telling to the players that this is about someones account and we cannot discuss it with anyone you have selected the long way of "semi-appologies". at least this is happening to my eyes. for sure this person will not bot again there is no need and for sure you will not do the same mistake twice...at least i am happy you understand that in luna there is no competetion anymore and that is not because there are more skillful players but because someone did it differently and illegally. i hope for that reason alone that you will not touch the level cup. who knows maybe in a year we will be able to compete. just pray that all the other online games that are comming out are not that good. case closed
about the bot button you dont need it. check the logs some ppl are just stuped. check your logs about 4 days ago you will see that approxematly 400 rez scroll used to the same player from a clan that we had war with (no names needed) he/she was botting +400 crp. check also 2 weeks ago a hero on luna pked and rezed also with the same way 4 times (we had to do sin eater again). my point is that the situation in luna is out of controle do you understand that we cannot xp in 74+ areas?
dont bother update the game there is no need we cannot play in the new areas because every bot group will be there. and there is no need my char to take more pks because when i die and louse a piece of my armor for me it will be diffecult to get a new one. so you see the problem is not only the bots but what it come with them as well.
thanks for nothing.
Siiner, did you start this thread? Thank you for nothing but complaining and not really adding any real substance to the thread.
The bot situation is out of control on most servers.
On Bartz, Legits pretty much need to **** of BS, WoA, VoS, HS, and some other areas. There are routinely bots in IoP, and sometimes groups stacked on top of each other in Varka Silenos Outpost. Gladly, there are almost none in Ketra (prolly cause most of the bots are melee/dd groups). On Devianne, there were bots everywhere, and they seemed to follow you around... There was an ES bot named Meeps that leveled AFK at Hot Springs TENTS for weeks, got 79, and became hero - LOL! HOT SPRINGS TENTS... How is it possible to AFK level at places like that undetected???
I ran through Shrine and was suprised as how many supposedly "legit people" were AFK leveling on top of other bot groups in the same spot. The minute the servers came up from maintenance (before the MOBs even spawned), there were multiple bot groups waiting to start killing.
The changes that would need to be made are probably not worth it for NCSoft, Monetarily.
Do I think it's time to stop complaining about bots? Yes, cause it doesn't help anything. They will tell you it does, but, the proof is in the pudding. There are botted up toons that I've been reporting since I started playing this game (level 3x leveling in IT Crator) and they are still trucking. No. It's not worth it. There are too many obvious botters/bot parties running around this game in some of the most visible areas to make me believe that any type of factorable effort is going on.
Gratz on getting spoiled by the relatively non-factor number of system messages that got thrown around during the "mass bans". All those people are probably S Grade and noble [again] now.
Lol @ the bot button. What difference is the bot button from sending in a /gm? Not even an online support ticket works, tbh.
Support ticket about bots doesn't work anymore. The last 3 I sent in just got ignored. Not even a reply.
I wish they would make more instance zones and hide all the bots if they're not going to ban them. There's no room anywhere to play on Sayha. You spend more time looking for a free spot than anything else. Casual players have it tough.
In regards to a suit against the 3rd party software designers, couldnt a class action suit be brought forth from those adversely affected, not just Ncsoft but all of us gamers. I am not a lawyer so wanted to throw that out. I wish I had the time and resources because I think it would be interesting. I believe any legit player has a legal argument that his/her personal well being and time have been seriously harmed by these companies/individuals. Now I am gonna end the political correctness effort. Quite frankly this stupid company-Ncsoft has shown nothing but incompetence in this problem and too many of us are being civil about it. We should simply tell them to go to hell and quit playing. Also I am tired of the generic answers. REAL TALK dammit from one of you moderaters. The bots are OBVIOUS...get your head up out of your **** and get rid of them. And yes I know I am gonna be banned from the forums for this but guess what...I dont give a rats ---. Its whats fundamently wrong with this world now...nobody has the guts to state the obvious and say it as it is or do the right thing or use some **** common sense. Anyone who is lvl 85/75/75/75 or whatever is cheating period and if they arent should be banned for insanity anyhow lol. Anyhow I think alot of us should have a protest of our own ingame. Lets all meet in the middle of Aden and throw down our gear and shout...you win bots...enjoy your pathetic virtual world.
Thanks to Omega for posting, too bad it wasn't useful.
My current paid time ends sometime next week and I shant be renewing, at least until the update to see what is new and try the "new bot tools". I suspect that will be a 1 month "farewell tour" since we all know nothing will be done...
Thank you very much for your feedback.
I am not sure how many people will remember but I made the following statement in a “Q&A with Omega” in October of last year.
This was my promise to you: that I will be focusing more on battle with bots. Since then, I have had multiple meetings with the Dev team in Korea regarding this issue and we have improved our bot banning methods which have resulted in close to 20,000 account bans over the past 6 months. It may not seem like we are fighting bots as much as you would like for us to, but please know that we have been fighting with bots with all we have since day 1.
Rather than just saying “this is what we did the last 6 months, we are working, etc.” I want to say that we will put even more effort on battling bots in the future and upgrade the bot banning system to next level. I do understand that we need to put more attention to bots.
We have already made some changes to the current bot reporting button in upcoming update and I hope that this helps to make Lineage II a better place to play which is also one of our main goals.
Thanks Omega,
I expected the usual response...nothing.
So just some basic math on 20,000 accounts in 6 months total over 8 servers..
20000 / 8 (servers) / 6 (months) / 20 (works days/month - just a thrown out number) = ~21 accounts banned per server each work day
... that isnt a lot considering if it takes 3 min to detect a bot/write up logs and ban you should be able to get around 20 accounts per hour per server (+ some for time to go from bot party to bot party)...now if you only have one guy banning bots then his 8 hour work day would be about 20 per server I guess if he does nothing else.
So 20,000 sounds like a lot but 21 per day/server it doesnt really sound like much.
So just some basic math on 20,000 accounts in 6 months total over 8 servers..
20000 / 8 (servers) / 6 (months) / 20 (works days/month - just a thrown out number) = ~21 accounts banned per server each work day
... that isnt a lot considering if it takes 3 min to detect a bot/write up logs and ban you should be able to get around 20 accounts per hour per server (+ some for time to go from bot party to bot party)...now if you only have one guy banning bots then his 8 hour work day would be about 20 per server I guess if he does nothing else.
So 20,000 sounds like a lot but 21 per day/server it doesnt really sound like much.
And more math fun - lets say it take 3 mins per account to document and lets say give them 7 mins to find the botting toon - that is basicaly 3.5 hours per server/day in banning.
So if there was 8 GMs (one per server) - they are spending 1/2 of their time banning bots - the other half would be assisting players with questions, etc?
And more math fun - lets say it take 3 mins per account to document and lets say give them 7 mins to find the botting toon - that is basicaly 3.5 hours per server/day in banning.
So if there was 8 GMs (one per server) - they are spending 1/2 of their time banning bots - the other half would be assisting players with questions, etc?
Sound about right?
I think 3 minutes and 7 minutes are on the low side of the estimate...
Let's face it, you let a whole load of players bot all the way up to 84/85 with high 70s subs right under your noses and then you aren't even able to make the ban stick when you do actually get around to catching 'em. Its too late to talk about making changes.
There's no way for legit players to compete with these 84/85 pvp/griefer bots hence most legit players continue to quit over the year.
How come your GMs don't camp the well known infamous bot haven such as pagan temple and HB castle? Even blinds can tell most "trains" in there are bots, 24/7 bots.
Highend 83-85 pvp/griefer bots are the reasons most people quit. Not the LOW level mat/cata farmers.
We can easily tell most of your 20,000 banned accounts over the past 6 months are just some lowbie adena farmers (and they simply don't matter) since most of these RUSSIAN highend bots are still ingame and botting strong on all server. GMs on euro peak time are useless.
After reading all these problems with Bot in official Lineage 2 servers,
I wonder how long it remains to L2. :confused:
You believe this community trust on some other NCsoft game?
too bad i dont like wow (yes tried it) Waiting for new MMO but no ncsoft for me again.
dunno when they want implent lvl 90, mayby do that so botters have something too do. because now they have max lvl and gear they only grieving the live players.
Its so dificult the gms be more active ingame?
NCSoft is so poor that can`t hire more gms to help the current staff?
Maybe its stupidity, but the banning of bots could work this way:
1- gms constantly ingame, but disguised, like any other player.
2- the gms work in turns at the game, pretended to gain exp in all places, in a rotation between the diferent places, verifying the existence of bots.
3- a gm saw someone that beaheves like a bot, verify the logs, and act against the bot.
Imagine that:
One gm working 8 hours in a server (with breaks ofc), when his turn ends another gm continue, and so on in a rotative system.
The disguised gm goes, let say, to Forsaken Plains, have a bit of fun bashing some mobs for some minutes, and saw some suspect of botting - talk 1st, no answer, check the logs, the actuation of the suspect is very similar to a program, ban him.
Maybe this system has his flaws, can be a little slow at the beggining, but later could be improved and turned more quick and more functional.
At least will gave to the players that dont bot the sensation that something is being maked by the staff of the game to insure a better game to all fair players.
Its so dificult the gms be more active ingame?
NCSoft is so poor that can`t hire more gms to help the current staff?
Maybe its stupidity, but the banning of bots could work this way:
1- gms constantly ingame, but disguised, like any other player.
2- the gms work in turns at the game, pretended to gain exp in all places, in a rotation between the diferent places, verifying the existence of bots.
3- a gm saw someone that beaheves like a bot, verify the logs, and act against the bot.
Imagine that:
One gm working 8 hours in a server (with breaks ofc), when his turn ends another gm continue, and so on in a rotative system.
The disguised gm goes, let say, to Forsaken Plains, have a bit of fun bashing some mobs for some minutes, and saw some suspect of botting - talk 1st, no answer, check the logs, the actuation of the suspect is very similar to a program, ban him.
Maybe this system has his flaws, can be a little slow at the beggining, but later could be improved and turned more quick and more functional.
At least will gave to the players that dont bot the sensation that something is being maked by the staff of the game to insure a better game to all fair players.
Hi, just commenting:
Don't need any log or program or routine or whatever to detect a bot. I can detect a bot when I see one. I'm sure you can detect a bot when u see one. I'm sure 90% of the players can detect a bot when they see one. That said, why the *** GM's can't detect them? Why they need "evidences" to do something about them?
Hell, this same discussion over and over really ****** me off.
HOW TO DETECT A BOT?
It's so easy that anyone can detect a bot. Read:
1 - Usually they targets mobs before they even spawn. Pay attention and u'll see.
2 - They don't answer back to ur PM's or open chat talking even if u KS them. U can even PK them and they will not talk a single word. This is not a general rule however. They might have auto responses for asked questions or words u type to them. Try to talk in another language or saying something unusually. U can easily detect when they have auto responses or not.
3 - Bot parties consists mostly of all non-tagged chars and most of them untarget the mob when u target it. Test it. Stay close to a mob and wait they target it and then target the mob. They will retract. Play ping-pong with them if u want. However, this is not a rule. I've seem bot parties that didn't have this "auto untarget" thing, they go for a mob even if u target or hit it.
4 - This one is only acessible to GMs. If all the above methods of detecting a bot succeeded, but u GMs are still not conviced that they are bots: If the suspicious char dont answer back in open or PM chat, I'm pretty sure GMs can see in the char log and check if they are talking to other ppl or in clan chat or ally chat. I mean, if, by any reason (windows settings for example), a char isnt answering, there might be a chance that they have their windows settings foked up and they are not seeing the PMs or open chat in that moment, for example. If they were pretty much mute for the past 2 or 3 hours, so something is wrong. I don't see any more needing of any more evidences.
That said, why, for the Christ sake, GMs talk so much about "need evidences"?
The worst blind is the one that doesn't want to see.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
I am not sure how many people will remember but I made the following statement in a “Q&A with Omega” in October of last year.
This was my promise to you: that I will be focusing more on battle with bots. Since then, I have had multiple meetings with the Dev team in Korea regarding this issue and we have improved our bot banning methods which have resulted in close to 20,000 account bans over the past 6 months. It may not seem like we are fighting bots as much as you would like for us to, but please know that we have been fighting with bots with all we have since day 1.
Rather than just saying “this is what we did the last 6 months, we are working, etc.” I want to say that we will put even more effort on battling bots in the future and upgrade the bot banning system to next level. I do understand that we need to put more attention to bots.
We have already made some changes to the current bot reporting button in upcoming update and I hope that this helps to make Lineage II a better place to play which is also one of our main goals.
Omega,
I'm not going to waste time with pleasantries, I'm simply going to state that you and your entire staff have COMPLETELY FAILED in your efforts to ban bots effectively. If you were being graded on your success since you made your "promise" to work more to curb the bot problem, you would be currently at a negative "F". Let's face it, all we ever get from you, Kinslon, and Spam is spin with no tangible results. You've kept your methods, your actions, and your results secretive to the point of lunacy. In case you haven't logged in and walked around any server lately, you really need to know that all your secret strategies, plots, and plans have not even slowed down, let alone prevented ANY botting in game.
So my big question to you would be, "What's been the point"? What has been the reason to hide all the pertinent information from the player base about how you handle, detect, or ban bots? All the secrecy has not produced one iota of difficulty or restraint on the part of the users, owners, or creators of the bot programs. All you've really done is alienate the ever dwindling numbers of the legitimate players you pretend to be so concerned about. You've given us nothing but lip service for years and, quite frankly, it's beyond boring.
Your platitudes are not only unwanted, they're borderline insulting. Every player (and I do mean EVERY PLAYER) in this game can reasonably identify a person using a bot to automate their gameplay with about 20 seconds of observations. I understand that revenue is an issue, but in all honesty, you didn't have to fully ban anyone to produce results. You could have set in place a 24 hour, 3 day, 5 day, 2 week, and complete ban policy that would have allowed you to keep your precious revenue, but then also put the fear of God into those that would use automated gameplay. The community would have stood behind the vast majority of your banning decisions and you would have been completely within your EULA. All it would have cost you would have been an in-game stroll to infested hot-spots and catacombs. Players would have definitely alerted you to places of interest.
Your canned responses, poor customer service, and ineptitude have resulted in at least three of my clan members quitting the game over the hypocrisy of your policies. I know their monthly fees aren't even considered as a drop in the bucket towards your company's bottom line, but their departure makes the world of L2 just a little darker and a little less fun. Lineage 2 was a great game once and I believe it can be again, but you must first win back the trust and loyalty of your playerbase with a sincere and maybe even a bit showy effort to let us know you actually give a **** about what this community feels.
Your first good faith act should be to set all the characters associated with the Luna 9's accounts back to level 1. Let them keep their gear and their money and their accounts. This way, they were not banned, which indeed makes them lucky, but they won't be allowed to profit from their botting. I truly hope you and the rest of the GM staff make the right decision.
I just want to ask GM`s, Spam, Omega, Kinslon only one thing - where have you all been 2 years? Sleeping in crystal coffin waiting for a kiss from korean prince? I played on france 2 years ago and mostly all clans were legit and keept their legit reputation (bots were kicked from all normal clans and KoSed) And then one day clan Fusion appeared and made in 2 months 2-3 full nobless parties using bots in bot trains and that changed everything! Where have you been when they took 50% of heroes? Where have you been when they changed balance on server and many legit people discovered that ingame bot is "unbannable"? Fighting bots like Korea huh? If you try to ban 20000 inlegit players like in Korea - Lineage 2 in NA just dissappear from financial reports because you will have like 100-200 ppl on each server who doesnt bot or dont buy adena or doesnt use bugs. But you can still ban people (and then unban) fronm trade topics on the forum, but never done something if someone was reported with screenshot of ingeme bot running with hp/mp on the screen lol.
GtG NC Soft. Legits can`t play here, unlegits can`t play here. Better move to Warhammer or WoW, at least there are people in support who cares.
Good job NCsoft. Let the botters take hero while legit clans cant even take sub quests in ToI
That's exactly why lots people quit. Not all high 80+ are bots but there are just too many godly 83-85 bots/griefers around. They only bully and grief legit players while driving people to quit L2 when they are not botting. With all their fancy oe gears and skills, there's nothing we legit players can do about them anymore (since c3) when we are picked on. The worst6 of them are of those russian cheaters/clans - you can not even communicate with them. They have some unknown hatred toward NA players for some reason. It's sad to see even certain GMs are on their side.
Good job NCsoft. Let the botters take hero while legit clans cant even take sub quests in ToI
it isn't reason or fact to ban somebody.
lets make pvp parties and kill us for take sub quests in ToI.
why must GMs ban ppl, who kill u everyday? it is reason to ban? :D
Good job NCsoft. Let the botters take hero while legit clans cant even take sub quests in ToI
1) I`ve never had such OE`d weapon.
2) It ain`t so hard to make couple chars on private server... and make moovie
3) I used to think that i`m a ligit player, coz i don`t using third party soft, and don`t brake eula. But see - Legit player is the person, who can`t do nothing against the enemies... Actually even doesn`t have enemies... Is it interesting to play like u? Popping arround and press bot report? quite nice, isn`t it, to ban ur opponents, a nd play single clan on server... U talking about bot? lol! I`m playing with my wife. I`m 80 lvl nub, even w/o s80, and only with one epic, wich was given me by the CLAN. And if ur clan leader Nacrissa, or smth like that (don`t used to remember nicknames of nonfactor-criers) can`t beet me on oly, it ain`t mine problem...
read couple manuals... learn how to exp and how to get some money IG, i mean with legit way, not e bay, as u usually do, and then beet on on oly - and there woudn`t be a reason for u to ban one more legit player.
Ur averise won`t make game better...
gf.
1) I`ve never had such OE`d weapon.
2) It ain`t so hard to make couple chars on private server... and make moovie
3) I used to think that i`m a ligit player, coz i don`t using third party soft, and don`t brake eula. But see - Legit player is the person, who can`t do nothing against the enemies... Actually even doesn`t have enemies... Is it interesting to play like u? Popping arround and press bot report? quite nice, isn`t it, to ban ur opponents, a nd play single clan on server... U talking about bot? lol! I`m playing with my wife. I`m 80 lvl nub, even w/o s80, and only with one epic, wich was given me by the CLAN. And if ur clan leader Nacrissa, or smth like that (don`t used to remember nicknames of nonfactor-criers) can`t beet me on oly, it ain`t mine problem...
read couple manuals... learn how to exp and how to get some money IG, i mean with legit way, not e bay, as u usually do, and then beet on on oly - and there woudn`t be a reason for u to ban one more legit player.
Ur averise won`t make game better...
gf.
VivaLaCuba
1) GM will check dont worry (i hope so)
2) You can think what you want. In that thread you wrote that someone have killed your char and ressed while you loaded your oop BD char and moved him to spot so you was afk on that moment. Now you can run and edit your post on that board to make "this never happened" face. Also you can see here chat where your nowadays clanmates (unbanned bots Silent, Yakov) writing about your resskill and asking for some replays.
3) There is 2 frapses with your resskills, with your automated support also. Sure you are legit.
1) I`ve never had such OE`d weapon.
2) It ain`t so hard to make couple chars on private server... and make moovie
3) I used to think that i`m a ligit player, coz i don`t using third party soft, and don`t brake eula. But see - Legit player is the person, who can`t do nothing against the enemies... Actually even doesn`t have enemies... Is it interesting to play like u? Popping arround and press bot report? quite nice, isn`t it, to ban ur opponents, a nd play single clan on server... U talking about bot? lol! I`m playing with my wife. I`m 80 lvl nub, even w/o s80, and only with one epic, wich was given me by the CLAN. And if ur clan leader Nacrissa, or smth like that (don`t used to remember nicknames of nonfactor-criers) can`t beet me on oly, it ain`t mine problem...
read couple manuals... learn how to exp and how to get some money IG, i mean with legit way, not e bay, as u usually do, and then beet on on oly - and there woudn`t be a reason for u to ban one more legit player.
Ur averise won`t make game better...
gf.
VivaLaCuba
Oo
if he gets banned get 200 russian friends shouting and crying i guess u will get unbanned too looks like it works like this ;)
so low selfsteem to denial botting when a wartag rezz u several times and screenshots and fraps it but would should u expect from a botter ....
1) GM will check dont worry (i hope so)
2) You can think what you want. In that thread you wrote that someone have killed your char and ressed while you loaded your oop BD char and moved him to spot so you was afk on that moment. Now you can run and edit your post on that board to make "this never happened" face. Also you can see here chat where your nowadays clanmates (unbanned bots Silent, Yakov) writing about your resskill and asking for some replays.
3) There is 2 frapses with your resskills, with your automated support also. Sure you are legit.
UPD: found some 3rd fraps for those who cant view replay file http://depositfiles.com/files/k9s0qx7ky
It's clear that he's botting in those videos. VivaLaCuba should be banned. But I guess his friends would just go emo then and stage another mass petition.
The problem with the high level 'player' character bots is that they are supervised during the day so GMs will not catch them. Then when they need XP boost, they go afk at night confident that all the GMs are sleeping.
If the bot programs can sound an alarm when someone chats, hits them or a GM come into range then how can you catch this person botting if he is not afk? I sincerely hope that the GMs are asking themselves this question and are coming up with some solutions (there are obvious ones). First change would be to have active GMs (employ US GMs on euro servers if necessary) to be online during the small hours - when players are not supervising their bots.
Do you know that some players regard themselves legitimate simply because they sit at their keyboards while their characters auto xp? I could happily sit at my keyboard with a character on auto XP mode while I eat pizza, watch TV, browse forums and chat with friends happily for 10-12 hours a day. I could be high level within a matter of weeks - but I choose not to do so because to me, regardless of whether it is cheating or not, it is not really in the spirit of the game.
I really don't get what players are getting out of PvP when they are botted to the max and geared with their bank accounts. Wins and loses don't mean anything - wins should be celebrated and loses should hurt imo - otherwise why play?
There is a huge market for lineage 2 with bot, make a bot server, and who u see botting move it too there. u will still have the money of them, and live players can play with the other live ones, gear and lvl wise almost equil (all have too do same too get somewhere), instead of having too compete with uber lvls, and the botters can have some competition too (when they want too play live).
this way live players happy, botters i dunno i think too, they only loose the overhand but i think 1 shooting every one is also no fun.
sley this has already been discussed botters dont want competition they want domination
I know :(, but i get feeling Nc soft dont want too loose their income off botters, so mayby alternitive, because like this they loose live players, so then in a vew more months all servers are bot servers.
NCSoft could put ingame a new kind of mob that only spawns if some program detect a bot behaviour.
This mob new mob instantly kill the bot or bots, and on top of that, when the bots are killed by that kind of mob, droped everything to the ground (equipment, materials, adena....), and the droped loot disapear in, let say, 10 seconds (because of lag).
How about a mob with the same name as the surrounding mobs. Only it looks like the mother of all bombs and has a large sign saying: Hit me and you DIE.
I find it hilarious what a joke NC has become when they are mocked and taunted in their very own site by the bots that run free. Counting down to D3 & Tera. hope they have a spine that is not made of jello.
Rumors are now flying around that some of the worst botters are GMs and that they are selling Adena outside the game.
Also that Nova is nothing more than a farmer Clan that came over with alot of PvsP hype but actually came to Phoenix to sell what they farmed on Sayha.
That is why they can't take any castles cause that's not what they do.....
You know...this ****z is way better than the game imo.
How about a mob with the same name as the surrounding mobs. Only it looks like the mother of all bombs and has a large sign saying: Hit me and you DIE.
I like this idea!
Anyway they could make a mob same name as the ones around his that has some kind of animation around him, like fireworks something, and when it gets hit, all his stats get 8x, p attack p. defense, cast silence, hold and sleep towards the people around him, go for mages first.... and then auto summon two big great wolf pets level 85 > ). And if you kill him, no reward other than: you are auto-teleport to nearest town and unable to move out of town for 24 hours :).
By Cho Jin-seo
Staff Reporter
NCsoft, a leading online game company in South Korea, refuted accusations from cheating program vendors that the firm is deliberately neglecting the widespread use of autopilot programs to keep up the profits coming from those game accounts.
Responding to a May 10 article of The Korea Times, NCsoft said on Friday that it has always tried its best to fight cheating programs, often called macros or bots, in its popular online game ``Lineage.’’
The counterclaim was made after the Korea Times report quoted a cheating program seller, who insisted that NCsoft is in fact a beneficiary of the pervasiveness of the bots.
``We are taking all necessary actions to stop gamers from using illegal programs in `Lineage.’ Our ultimate goal is to root them out,’’ said an NCsoft spokesperson on Thursday. ``We are the most active company that tries to solve the problem. We are the only company to take a legal action on the issue so far.’’
Bots and macros are computer programs that automatically play online games without the presence of a gamer for hours and even for days. They have been widely used not only by lazy gamers who are bored of monotonous play, but also by groups of illegal businesses that rake in game items or cyber money that they turn into cash on trading Web sites.
Earlier this month, the Seoul Central District Court sentenced two distributors of popular bot program ``LinMate’’ to suspended jail terms of two years and fined them 10-million won each. NCsoft had complained to the police that the two had been obstructing its operation of the ``Lineage’’ game and thus damaged its profits.
NCsoft has also closed more than 500,000 game accounts in which bots were used since 2004, including some 200,000 accounts this year alone, according to the firm’s statistics.
Since the late ‘90s when massive multiplayer online games (MMORPGs) like ``Lineage’’ became hugely popular in South Korea, game companies have been suspected of overlooking the use of autopilot programs. Accusers have insisted that the companies could double their income when users pay for two game accounts _ one for themselves and one for the bots.
NCsoft denies such allegations, saying that the bots have cost its business 10-billion won. It also said that more legal action is planned against the makers and distributors of the bots.
Another NCsoft official said that it is practical reasons, not the lack of willingness, that have hindered the company in fighting the cheating programs.
``Even our employees use bots sometimes when playing `Lineage.’ The other day, I saw one of our game developers playing it on four PCs in the office, three of them using bots,’’ said the game director who refused to be identified. ``We are just helpless when facing illegal programs. It is not possible to detect all the bots and macros in the game.’’
An old article (2006) from the Korean Times but it still was an eye opener for me...especially the last paragraph.
dont need for cry. its true ncsoft do the most mucher that stop the bots in the lineage 2. Another games full of bots, just check the world of warcraft or silkroad online bots are everywhere, in wow dont got long bann the player who use illegal program and he can start after again. if we talk about silkroad it is the game what is real bot game how i know there are 38 international servers and from them about 35-36 just full bot server.
well i think at least at us do something that this game will better.
I heard -1 Hero Soultaker on Luna. Good job NCsoft!
But now i want to show you all the player who got second chance once. I wonder why?
He was so fearless that he even made pvp movies with 3-rd party programs on the screens. And after all he was unbanned!
All welcome Silent:
nice fraps from private server and work at editing program, give me any your fraps or at least nickname of your ingame character, so i ask my friends to help me, on private server make a fraps and add all this effects with rez withouth mouse press or numbers at upper cut of ecran or whatever else, peoples can make lot of effects if they know how to use vegas and other programs :) i tell you once: find me botting or using any 3rd party soft (some radar or how it calls) fraps/screen it and then make thread, moovies from 1st person with editing isnt a proove, more hate pls, and work harder, but i dont think gm's gonna ban legit players w/o proofs (they check me almost every day i'm sure).
This fraps published not for you or not for GM`s but for the community. To let them know how bots get unbanned today and how they cry here about "fake" video. If you will still play after this evidence this will be a good lesson for those legit players that still think EULA works fine.
Silent, if you bot, atleast dont be so **** hypocrite. We all know you are cheater. You can lie here as you want, it wont change anyone's opinion, neither ncsoft's. Either shut up or dont lie.
i tired to speak with peoples like you i can tell what you are bot and all X at teon are bots and cheater hypocrits, but i have no proofs, same as you, noone see me ever botting noone see me ever with radar or something else rofl, keep blame me thats funny
i tired to speak with peoples like you i can tell what you are bot and all X at teon are bots and cheater hypocrits, but i have no proofs, same as you, noone see me ever botting noone see me ever with radar or something else rofl, keep blame me thats funny
gms saw you botting and they banned you for that...they didnt unban you cuz you are legit, but cuz they forgot to record the proof that you are cheating...which was their huge mistake and if i would be gm, i would find the proofs in logs just to dont look like one big failure
краткое описание фильма: парт 1 - нагибание заек в разных позах, анал пенетрейшн и просто хороший секс при соотношении нас к енеми 1 х 3, парт 2 - тащу еще больше.
спецэффектов нет, только небольшие хитрости иногда, чтоб скрыть свою нелегитность, 32 минуты нонстоп нагибания.google translation
brief description of the film: Lot 1 - nagibanie zaek in different positions, **** penetreyshn and just good sex with a ratio of us to enemi 1 x 3, desks 2 - taschu more.
No special effects, only some small tricks to hide its unlegitimacy, 32 minutes nonstop nagibaniya.
gms saw you botting and they banned you for that...they didnt unban you cuz you are legit, but cuz they forgot to record the proof that you are cheating...which was their huge mistake and if i would be gm, i would find the proofs in logs just to dont look like one big failure
you play at most botting ally at whole NA servers, what use clan radars with hide, why you dont blame them ? psichopath for example or w/e his name is, who go hide after every hit on him, and same thing for 50% bp/ee from RedSky rofl, its a hypocricy to play at most botted clan at l2, and call someone not even from ur server bot
more more, find more posts from private forums and give us links for every his post where he use word legit/bot/bots/unlegit, also if you really believe what he is a bot find him botting/cheating in game and give to l2 community real prooves lol, but... wait you can't?!
p.s. seems like this GH got one more fanboy
Silent, if you bot, atleast dont be so **** hypocrite. We all know you are cheater. You can lie here as you want, it wont change anyone's opinion, neither ncsoft's. Either shut up or dont lie.
better tell us about teon's steel citadel where redsky bot 24/7, oh wait... you in botters clan :(
p.s. esli u tebia dura obostrenie, poprosi 4tob kto to viebal
you play at most botting ally at whole NA servers, what use clan radars with hide, why you dont blame them ? psichopath for example or w/e his name is, who go hide after every hit on him, and same thing for 50% bp/ee from RedSky rofl, its a hypocricy to play at most botted clan at l2, and call someone not even from ur server bot
calling someone bot isnt hypocrisy no matter how many my clannies bot, you dont see me spamming forum with how my clan is legit, you dont see me spamming UNBAN pettitons for my clannies, I dont approve their way, but i like top pvp so i am in that clan despite my very diff (legit) playstyle...and lot of my clannies get banned, their problem not mine
but those silent guys are acting like super uber legit angels, thats hyporcisy
calling someone bot isnt hypocrisy no matter how many my clannies bot, you dont see me spamming forum with how my clan is legit, you dont see me spamming UNBAN pettitons for my clannies, I dont approve their way, but i like top pvp so i am in that clan despite my very diff (legit) playstyle...and lot of my clannies get banned, their problem not mine
but those silent guys are acting like super uber legit angels, thats hyporcisy
bcuz i see them in game playing legit, dont know was they botting or nope before (never see them bot/cheat) but see them exping live (maybe they change their play style after ban, or maybe they was legit all the time, but.. isnt this want GM's - all players to play legit, even felons have 2nd chance after jail)
about you just wonder will you write same posts at threads when someone will blame squuez oner psich or other peoples? i bet - no, so why you have so double mind, its hypocrisy.
U r real fan, it's unhealthy really...
I hope GM's understand that u already possessed with desire to ban silent no matter what and doesn't matter what it take, and don't take u serious and all this crap u trying to find, write, create or something else.
bcuz i see them in game playing legit, dont know was they botting or nope before (never see them bot/cheat) but see them exping live (maybe they change their play style after ban, or maybe they was legit all the time, but.. isnt this want GM's - all players to play legit, even felons have 2nd chance after jail)
about you just wonder will you write same posts at threads when someone will blame squuez oner psich or other peoples? i bet - no, so why you have so double mind, its hypocrisy.
if my clannie will come here and will clame he is super uber most legit person in the wrold and he will mean it as seriously as silent do, ill tell him to shut up as well, hypocrisy is one of the worst human features
well except me, cuz i am super uber most legit person in the world :P
bcuz i see them in game playing legit, dont know was they botting or nope before (never see them bot/cheat) but see them exping live (maybe they change their play style after ban, or maybe they was legit all the time, but.. isnt this want GM's - all players to play legit, even felons have 2nd chance after jail)
about you just wonder will you write same posts at threads when someone will blame squuez oner psich or other peoples? i bet - no, so why you have so double mind, its hypocrisy.
if my clannie will come here and will clame he is super uber most legit person in the wrold and he will mean it as seriously as silent do, ill tell him to shut up as well, hypocrisy is one of the worst human features
well except me, cuz i am super uber most legit person in the world :P
i have a proofs what you are bot! give me any your fraps, and in 10 minutes after some vegas editing i will add some bad things there :D
also maybe you want me to check every your post at l2guru and give links to every post where you use word "bot" or something, even if this post was a joke or w/e :))))))
just for example do you rly think what this can be posted serious:
"nagibanie zaek in different positions, **** penetreyshn and just good sex with a ratio of us to enemi" (C)
i have a proofs what you are bot! give me any your fraps, and in 10 minutes after some vegas editing i will add some bad things there :D
also maybe you want me to check every your post at l2guru and give links to every post where you use word "bot" or something, even if this post was a joke or w/e :))))))
Remember this isnt l2blah or something so keep this kind of conversations out of here.
I dont care what you do to my fraps, I know I am legit, GMs know I am legit. All who need to know. I was accused of botting, ebaying, everything ...out of jealousy, stupidity or just plante hatred.
I am not jealous of Silent, I am not stupid and I dont hate him...i hate hypocrisy and lies.
What has post with word bot has to do with this thread at all?
i thought its not screenshot from game but from one of the fraps, isnt it? i didnt watch the fraps
Fraps can also be manipulated ... we live in the 21 st century. I can forge a fraps a couple of hours. ololollloooll :D But doing so will not :rolleyes:
Fraps can also be manipulated ... we live in the 21 st century. I can forge a fraps a couple of hours. ololollloooll :D But doing so will not :rolleyes:
You didn't get my point. But I wont try to explain you, others probably got it.
People dont need to see screens/movies. You were all banned by a GM for using 3rd party software. The only reason you were unbanned was because of a techinicality.
You got caught and you managed to keep your accounts, be happy with this. You look really foolish posting on forums that you are legit when we all know that you aren't. Would be best just to be happy that you got away with it and choose to ignore this thread imo.
Please seriously, we try to forget how an incompetent GM make a mistake to record the botting that took place while you guys were AFK killing mobs, why you have to come to the forums to brag about it and to remind us of how seriously NCSoft fail at banning you guys?
This is a waste of time, because we all already know how and what this thread is going to turn into, and in the end it's not going to accomplish anything, or change anything.
The only reason why things never change Jyrki is because there people like you that don't believe in change. I voted for Barack Obama. Maybe you should have too. :)
Well since nobody is addressing the issue at hand (Edit: 10 other posters beat me before I typed this out), I will do my best to summarize the situation and the opinions of myself and others.
First, I'll say thanks for opening a thread so that we can at least voice out our opinions. I just hope that they will be considered.
Here is a rundown of the situation:
It was a tough call for NCsoft. On Luna, a GM (DrSabre I believe) did a great job by banning a group of 85s who were blatantly bots. Unfortunately, Luna is an extremely bot-infested server (it was for a while, may be getting better now with recent GM activity) where people see it as if the program is built into the game. The characters who were banned started new accounts (probably even took advantage of the half-off promotion sadly...) to spam GMs and support, as well as post in the Luna forums (I really hope that GMs did not feel any pressure from these accounts - they all have single digit posts and were all made April 2009; it is SO obvious who these posters really are... here is the thread btw http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=200589)
These people used their other accounts and friends to stage mass petitioning, shouting, and other behavior (look in general forums, nya's locked thread, for screenshot of this RIDICULOUS behavior) to pressure the GMs into unbanning the accounts that were 100% justly banned (I do not even need to have seen them in action to know they are bots, for such a new server and considering how the greatest legit powergamers on older servers are nowhere near them, I'd say the chances that they are legit are equal to the chance that since L2 release there has been someone manually killing starting gremlins 8 hours a day... i.e. 0%.)
The result: after many legits (including myself) cheered that action is being taken, the bots were unbanned, and to add insult to injury, given 7 day time cards. Anyone can make a character on Luna now and hear the unbanned "HEROES" bragging about their godliness (just get a Russian translator).
Do I think NCsoft cracked under the pressure? Yes.
Do I think it was a tough decision for them? Very tough.
Do I think it was the right decision? Unfortunately, no. Look at all the forums, hundreds of people are emerging to say how ridiculous it is, many of them quitting. Even if 50 "people" on Luna quit because of the bot party banning, it would show the other tens of thousands the strong stance of the GM team (which, of recently, has renewed my interest in the game. Unfortunately, I no longer have any motivation to level past 79 most of the bots are gone - I just do not feel like wasting thousands of hours of my life when someone else spent almost nothing).
I can only think of one solution now that would really help this situation: go full throttle on every server banning bots and other 3rd party program users. Show us that you mean it when you say you will prevent future cheating in this game. Places like hellbound, varka, IOP, and other high level zones should be checked DAILY at varying times - these bots have by far the most damaging effect on the game.
I promise you NCsoft, if you can save this game, I will spend my own time advertising this game to thousands of people - I no longer will have to be embarrassed about showing I play a game full of cheaters. Deal?
I cannot comment if that party was botting. Only GM's have logs and even with logs it is not 100%.
I can only focus on testing method: Kicking somebody from server is not a test. If it happend to me I would say "DC" in Ventrilo and continue in grinding if possible.
Some common sense ideas:
1) If invisible mode toon is reported to client any way - radar can detect it and unlog bots before GM arrive.
If client have no packet about invi char - running around in invi and SS groups can be usefull, then cancel invi and check how many of them will disappear - these would be tested next day or later....
2) Proving somebody a bot - any action can be ignored even by normal user. Every action can be detected by bot and alarmed to bot supervisor.
So my testing method would be something like showing up with GM name and hero aura near mob toons are killing. With title "PM ME" or saying something in general chat. If they will ignore, trying PM main toon. This will be prove for me.
3) How to detect possible botting. I would use timer counting second in battle mode per account. It is really not possible to fight 24/7. As long as I know account is not sharable - so values near 24/7 fighting are 100% bots.
These ideas are based on my knowledge from reading posts and forums here and some posts about walker/radar programs from googled forums. I never used any of them and as a unix engineer I have moderate knowledge about theory regarding sniffing and automating.